BS: US war with Iran begins

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 01:26 PM

But God is on the side of Israel, so I won't have a word said against it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 01:13 PM

”I am of the mind that eliminating someone who is responsible for murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people and preventing him from doing so again in the future is a good thing,”

So you would equally approve of similarly ‘eliminating’ the leader of the regime which, for the past number of years, has been carrying out a policy of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza, resulting in the murder or displacement of thousands of innocent people, and the theft of their homes and land?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 12:28 PM

You were willing to wager that I would not be unhappy (logical equivalent, would be happy) because revenge. Horrible attitude you have ascribed to me. Why not just say sorry for putting those awful words in my mouth? And assisting in a genesis of X is hardly masterminding Y. He was only 26 at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 12:06 PM

As for the embassy bombing it was carried out by Hezbollah with the approval and financing of senior Iranian officials. Solomeini was in charge of Al Quds foreign operations which was deployed to Lebanon in 1982, where it assisted in the genesis of Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mossback
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 12:04 PM

Two observations:

1.- It must be a particularly virulent and perverse form of mashochism that compels someone to interact with such specimens such as BooBad & Inaines.

2. It would have been preferable for the future of the U.S and the world at large has the assassination scenario been reversed.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 11:54 AM

I don't think I misread anything.

I should have said misconstrued. First off I never used the word happy which has a vastly different emotive impact than the words I used. Secondly you must have missed the quotation marks on the word martyrdom which, in this context are shorthand for so-called, the term was used by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei in describing the killing of Solomeini. That you misconstrue my words in order to showcase your beliefs is dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 11:36 AM

The article makes a lot of valid points.
But we are not privy to any of the details giving rise to the action.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 10:33 AM

Interesting POV here from The Week’. It makes a very good point.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 10:20 AM

"...I am of the mind that eliminating someone..."

Aren't words a problem sometimes. You like the idea that we can "eliminate" him. You avoid saying murdering, assassinating, blowing him to pieces, or even just killing him (add "in cold blood," which would be true, if you like). You don't say whether you'd have been OK pushing the death button. Just now I eliminated a spider from the bath. He's currently outside the bathroom window trying to get back in.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 10:02 AM

I don't think I misread anything.

I quote: I'm willing to wager that Mrrzy, whose father was killed in the terrorist car bombing of the US embassy in Beirut orchestrated by Soleimani, isn't wringing [their] hands over his "martyrdom". [Close quote.]

Not to mention that he didn't orchestrate that particular bombing as far as I can tell, and I sat through weeks of testimony.

And if he had, I would still be horrified by his murder.

Accusing me of stupidity is hardly apologizing for presuming me to be vengeful. Or to speak for me as if I were.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:25 AM

I think you misread my post but be that as it may I am of the mind that eliminating someone who is responsible for murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people and preventing him from doing so again in the future is a good thing, YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:17 AM

Upon rereading, I am also not a she. But that was a lot less upsetting than being lumped with the revenge-seekers.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:14 AM

Bobad, while I appreciate (really and strongly) your remembering my dad, do not ever, ever again presume that I would be happy, or anything other than horrified, at the death of any enemy. I am a pacifist. This was a murder. I am also an atheist. This was not martyrdom. How long do we have to kill Them to prove they should stop wanting to kill Us?

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 09:00 AM

Then he joins the pantheon of those bad western men responsible for thousands of deaths. Reagan. Kennedy. Lyndon Johnson. Nixon. Sharon. Bush. Blair. Plenty of non-western men too, of course. But yer man in Iran, bad man that he was, was merely a member of a world club.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 08:54 AM

As for what is being reported in the media this is what one poster who describes herself as "a proud and hopeful Syrian - now and always" has to say about that:

"Not saying a decent amount of Iranians arent upset about Soleimani. State propaganda can do that. But it seems lot of people dont know how this stuff works in totalitarian states. When Hafez Assad died his goons went into homes & basically threw you out in the street to mourn him."

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 08:46 AM

I doubt you read farsi or arabic, bobad, so I can only guess that you're trolling

There are Iranians who are conversant in English, believe it or not. Also Twitter translates posts, so please curb your condescension and your labeling of those with whom you disagree as trolls. I'm sorry for your loss.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 08:30 AM

Iranians, supporters of the People’s Mojahedin Organization of Iran (PMOI, Mujahedin-e Khalq or MEK), and the people of Syria and Iraq, are rejoicing after the death of the Iranian regime’s notorious General, Qassem Soleimani, who was responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of people both inside and outside Iran.

People in Iran and Across the Globe Celebrate Qassem Soleimani’s Death

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 07:41 AM

First, don't forget that Britain and France had immense roles in defining what became the countries of I ran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, et al. after World Wars I and II.

Secondly, a recent decision was made to allow Saudi Arabia to make US "smart bombs" and the technology to do so has already been transferred.

Thirdly, with the decision by Iraq to require the removal of ALL US forces there and the statement by you-know-who to slam the Iraqis with heavy sanctions if such removal happens, Iraq will move to Iran for help. This will pit Iraq/Iran against the Saudis, and Kuwait and the Gulf States will get the short end of it.

Fourthly, the US Navy very recently decided to cut way, way back on shipbuilding in 2020 and has given up its plans for a 595 ship fleet (I think that was the number).

You can think of more, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 06:55 AM

I suggest that few acts by the US could have turned the citizenry of Iran from protesting their own government and turned their wrath against the US exclusivly, but Trump chose one.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 06:16 AM

but am open to suggestions!

Hmmmm. The triumph of hope over experience - shot down in flames!

To be frank, Trump has had a few goes at creating a war. It is in his DNA to fire at multiple targets. It is the one tacktic (sic) that defines his MO. Create so many fires that you can't put them all out, and struggle with any single one.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 04:53 AM

I note the sneaky conflation of military aid and foreign aid. I was at pains to point out that proxy war is not confined to just "one side" in all this. I could have mentioned Russia too. There. That proves that I'm not a commie either. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 03:15 AM

Had the US and UK not replaced Mohammad Mosaddegh the 35th prime minister of Iran, with the Shah, the subsequent history of Iran would have been very different. The US backed Shah was deeply unpopular and replaced by a popular revolution. Iran voted by national referendum to become an Islamic republic on 1 April 1979 and to formulate and approve a new theocratic-republican constitution whereby Khomeini became Supreme Leader of the country in December 1979.
and you could argue it has been downhill ever since.
Around 90–95% of Iranians associate themselves with the Shia branch of Islam, the official state religion. According to official statistics, 75–85% of Saudi Arabian citizens are Sunni Muslims,
With the red flag unfurled over the Jamkaran Mosque it could argued that this maarks the fight between Dar al-Islam, for the Muslim peoples--and Dar al-Harb for everyone else whom must be forced into submission. Some argue this division of the world was corrupted by the Sunni monarchy of Saudi Arabia when they betrayed Islam by willfully becoming a part of what is known as the US Petrodollar System.
Perhaps looking at recent history through the lens of the link below explains many things
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare


https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/indepth/2020/1/3/does-riyadh-feel-threatened-by-the-new-muslim-alliance

All is not as it seems if you venture down the rabbit hole!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 11:33 PM

Not according to most of the Iranians posting on Twitter I doubt you read farsi or arabic, bobad, so I can only guess that you're trolling, because this is not what is being reported in media around the world.

And when there is a possibility that Israel will be discussed in the thread, here you are.

Ignore the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 10:17 PM

For 2017, out of a total $49 billion in US foreign aid Israel received $3.2 billion. In the same year Arab and Muslim countries received more that $20 billion of American taxpayer money. The biggest recipients were Afghanistan with $5.7 billion followed by Kuwait with $4.5 billion and Iraq with $3.7 billion.

you'll call me antisemitic or something.

Seeing your need to insert Israel into a discussion that has nothing to do with Israel and your obsession with the fact that Israel receives US aid and saying that Israel "invaded" those places, which implies offensive actions, I don't have call you anything it's pretty much self evident.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 09:42 PM

And the US fights and has fought proxy wars all over the place. And I suppose that if I remind you that the US gives around three billion of military aid to tiny Israel every year, aid which has supported Israeli invasions, repeatedly in some cases, of Gaza, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt, not to speak of air strikes in Iran, you'll call me antisemitic or something...

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 09:28 PM

they have never physically invaded other nations.

They invade other countries through proxy armies that they train, arm and support, what do you think Soleimani was doing with Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis the commander of Kata'ib Hezbollah militia in Iraq? The same militia that was behind the attack on the US embassy. Iran also has proxy armies in Syria, where they ruthlessly slaughtered thousands in service to Assad, Yemen, Lebanon and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 08:31 PM

An early response from Iran is that they have more or less abandoned the nuclear deal. That won't stress out Trump, I suppose, but what a retrograde step it is. One thing we know is that, while Iran sponsors Hezbollah and supports Hamas, they have never physically invaded other nations. That can hardly be said for most of the nations surrounding them and for the western nation that sees it as its God-given right to interfere in the Middle East. That is not to say that Iran is any sort of paragon. It definitely is not. But if we continually shit on countries like Iran we shouldn't be surprised if we reap a whirlwind.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 07:15 PM

A smarter person would weigh the repercussion of assassination against maintaining a messed up status quo. Trump decided to poke something snarly with a stick. I have no clue what the Iranians will do, but it won't be good. It would make more sense for them to do something personal against him (well, it's not the country, it's Trump and his collection of sycophant assholes), and avoid war, but who knows what's going to happen

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 07:07 PM

That's exactly what I was trying to say, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:40 PM

"He was a hero in his own country..."

Not according to most of the Iranians posting on Twitter - they are celebrating his demise. They also consider the regime ruling over them as foreign and are appealing for its end and a return to democracy and freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:13 PM

There have been many past US administrations that could have taken a shot at him, but didn't, because there is a whole bunch of baggage that comes along with assassination. I included context, Steve, there was no "not admitting to" part of it. He was a hero in his own country and seen as evil be everyone he plotted against. But he did it from a political position embedded within his nation, he wasn't like Bin Laden, et al, who were pariahs everywhere they went. Trump pulled this stunt because the generals who presented a large number of options to address the embassy assault included it as the most extreme option to make the other suggestions sound more reasonable. They were apparently shocked that he chose this one.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:06 PM

Perhaps there should be another Berlin Conference" - this time to car up Persia!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:01 PM

I'm willing to wager that Mrrzy, whose father was killed in the terrorist car bombing of the US embassy in Beirut orchestrated by Soleimani, isn't wringing her hands over his "martyrdom".

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 06:00 PM

the Leftwaffe. Magic!!

I do like a little light relief in a serious thread.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 03:45 PM

I really don't know why we need a government, the Leftwaffe here know all the answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel for the ordinary Persian people.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 08:04 PM

Yes, a horrid man. As I said, everybody involved is a baddie. But there is more context than you're admitting to, and don't get me wrong, I still think that he's a baddie. But he was operating in his own region, unlike the man who ordered his assassination. He sponsored Hamas and Hezbollah, whether you like it or not two setups formed in reaction to US/Israeli aggression in the region. Historical, checkable fact, lest trolls wish to call me antisemitic. Saddam, Al Baghdadi, Bin Laden and even Gaddafi were all bad men. Not one of them ever brought to trial. Soleimani was not in the same league. He was a powerful man but not a leader. He was warmly embedded in his own nation, which believes that the US is besieging them. Yes, there is a stink, and it behoves us to reject everything that Trump propagandises about this. Killing this man was a stupid move. There will be successors who are no better.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 07:33 PM

The "facts" of the case the Trump apologists claim are that they have "intelligence" that Soleimani was planning assaults on Americans or American installations. That can be said of any day in his life over the last two decades. Remember the last time GOP insisted there was "intelligence" and started the war against Saddam Hussein? This has the same kind of stink.

News outlets are referring to this as an assassination. Soleimani was an easy target for Trump and whoever on his staff suggested it, because he lived in the open, he was a government official who did horrible things as an Iranian military officer over the last 20-30 years, but he was part of that machine. Bin Laden and al-Baghdadi were always in hiding and aiming their campaigns at civilians. Soleimani probably should have been tried at the Hague, if it came to that.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:43 PM

Tom Tugendhat :-

Few military commanders have had the freedom Qasem Soleimani has enjoyed. For the best part of 20 years, Soleimani’s actions have been Iran’s foreign policy. Regimes he has backed, militias he has supported and terrorist campaigns he has encouraged have become the strategy of the mullahs in Tehran.

Soleimani joined the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps at the time of the Iranian revolution. Founded to defend the regime, the IRGC is separate from the regular army, navy and air force. It answers to a different command structure and runs companies and businesses that enrich its generals. It has been at the vanguard of Iranian military action inside and outside the country to keep the dictatorship in power.

Over the years the IRGC have crushed uprisings at home using their Basij volunteer militias to assault protestors and terrify opponents from speaking out. Abroad they have expanded their operations. The special operations unit, named the Quds Force after the Arabic name for Jerusalem, is charged with conducting operations to bring about the Islamic revolution’s goals, including the destruction of Israel. That’s where Soleimani has excelled.

Since around 1998, Maj Gen Soleimani has led the Quds Force in expanding from their traditional alliances with Hezbollah and others and used Iraq and Afghanistan to develop capabilities he would later go on to perfect in Syria. In all those struggles he has used three principle means that our own forces would recognise – supplying weapons, partnering with local forces and bringing specialist skills.

In Afghanistan, these partnerships were far from ideological. The Taliban, a Sunni religious cult, almost went to war with Iran in 2001 but only five years later, Iranian weapons were turning up in weapons caches in Helmand. The Quds Force shared skills too. Over the years, Afghan insurgents used increasingly professional shaped-charges to pierce armour and kill British, American, and other Nato servicemen and women. The intelligence trail was clear – the parts and knowledge came from Tehran.

In Yemen the same unit supplied rockets that have been falling on Saudi Arabia and bringing death villagers in the mountains. The Houthi rebellion has largely been a proxy war by Tehran’s military against their Sunni rivals in Riyadh with Yemeni civilians paying the highest price.

On Israel’s borders katyusha rockets that have killed civilians and been hidden amongst a Lebanese population terrified into silence. Both sides of the conflict have suffered but perhaps Lebanon most of all. In recent years thousands of Lebanese have been pressed into Hezbollah’s militias to fight in Syria. Many have been killed.

Skills transfer and terrorist training was not limited to the region but have seen groups spreading around the world. The 2012 attack on Israelis in Bulgaria, the assassinations of Arab nationalists 2015 and 2017 in the Netherlands and the failed bombing campaign in France in 2018 all point to a willingness to use any means to spread terror around the world. In 2015 this reached the UK.

Hezbollah-connected groups were found to have collected three tonnes of ammonia nitrate explosives in north west London and though the planned operation never took place, the warning that we here are not immune from Soleimani’s brand of foreign policy was clear. Even after we signed the nuclear agreement with Iran, the Quds Force saw us as a target.

The question now is what this means for Iran and what it means for us.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei’s rapid appointment of Soleimani’s deputy as his replacement masks the hole left in Iranian leadership. Despite his long addiction to opium he must know that Soleimani is irreplaceable. Over the past decades Iran’s strategy has been the general and his mythical status shows it.

Through personal relationships he has picked political leaders, backed their armies and funded their campaigns. If Bashar al Assad still sits in Damascus, it’s not because of his own skill, we saw how useless a commander he was in the early days of the revolution, but because Soleimani willed it. It is unlikely the IRGC will be able to find another leader like him.

Now Britain and others have a chance to reach out to former enemies and partners and point out that era defined by one man can end. The death of hundreds of thousands of Syrians, Iraqis, Lebanese and more can stop. The policy embodied in one man can end. But that requires some choices not only by the Iranian dictatorship, but many others in the region. This is a chance to change direction, let’s hope we take it.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:39 PM

I prefer Persian.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:19 PM

Well, Bonzo, whatever your take on summarily killing a chap outside the normal confines of due process, I think you'll soon see what a bad move this was. Iranian, by the way, not Persian.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:56 PM

Good riddance to this persian murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iretwbn begins
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM

I wonder if Jesus and Mohammed were in a room by themselves if they could work it out or if they had any problems at all.
The only difference between the two is that Mohammed took the plea bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 09:08 AM

We have the same issue as we had when civil war broke out in Syria. Everybody involved is a bad guy.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 08:51 AM

I'm hoping for a symetrical attack on our #2 and end escalation.
Since thats not going to happen perhaps the Pentagon would be more relieved by an asymetrical attack on our #1.

I assume Republican Senators would not hold Trump respondsible even if his showdown vaporizes everyone on 5th ave.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:07 AM

Overseas hubris is a time-honoured way of getting yourself re-elected. It worked for Thatcher. Really??????

Thatcher was elected in May 1979 with a majority of 43
The Falklands conflict to retake a British Dependency was from ?2 April – 14 June 1982(With the accession of the United Kingdom to the European Communities in 1973, the Falkland Islands Dependencies became one of the EU Overseas Countries and Territories under the Treaty of Rome, a status upheld by all subsequent EU treaties.) (Good to see our french allies selling exocets to the enemy!)
Thatcher re elected 9th June 1983 with a landslide majority.
Thatcher re elected 11th June 1987. Another landslide.

Hardly hubris but most assuredly due to success in thrashing unions,and success in foreign relations and with the economy.
I suspect only your goodself would describe you as an educationalist, others would apply more honest descriptors.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:00 AM

I suspect The Orange Neanderthal is a believer in the old adage, “All’s fair in fighting Impeachment and Elections”.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:50 AM

If I were to agree with Mr Shaw, then we would both be wrong - new year subjunctive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 05:29 AM

Anyway back to the thread topic. When taking out a military leader in a third country this is clearly an act of was. In these days of alliances
it is the duty of the US president to at the least inform his allies if taking action that will likely involve his allies suffering retribution.
Taking out the Iranian number 2 is not quite the same as a gangland drive by shooting. That is why others have vetoed the same action in the past.
The bigger the action, the bigger the consequences.(for all)

Personally I think it was an act of outright stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:18 PM

There is a current tendency today that is committed by people who should know better. It is called "the death of expertise'.

Keep expertise alive.

Subject: RE: BS: US war with Iran begins
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 08:17 PM

Nigel, my dear boy, you seriously need to look up the rules regarding commas and the use of the coordinating conjunction "and" with regard to what follows that "and." Now don't say I haven't warned you about this stuff. You're cruisin' for a bruisin'....