BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,bi al whittle
Date: 05 Feb 20 - 05:07 AM

sorry meant to add this. so readers can put the lyrics under the semantic microscope.....

Caledonia Lyrics
I don't know if you can see, the changes that have come over me
In these last few days, I've been afraid that I might drift away
And I've been tellin old stories, singing songs
That made me think about where I came from
And That's the reason why I seem so far away today.
Chorus
Oh but let me tell you that I love you
And I think about you all the time
Caledonia your callin me and now I'm goin home
But if I should become a stranger
You know that it would make me more than sad
Caledonia you, ve been everythin I've ever had.

Well I've been moved, and I've kept on movin
Proved the points that I needed proovin
Lost the friends I needed loosin
Found others on the way
I have kissed the ladies and left them cryin
Stolen dreams yes there's no denying
Travelled hard with contience flyin
Somewhere with the wind
Repeat chorus
Now I'm sitting here, before the fire
The empty room the forest choir
Flames that couldn't get any higher
They've withered now there gone
But I'm steady thinking my way is clear,
And I know what I will do tomorrow
When the hands I've shaken and the kisses flown I will disappear.
Repeat chorus

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 05 Feb 20 - 05:02 AM

well as a recent poster, sorry if I offended.

I recently decided to become a mudcat guest to prevent me venturing an opinion below the line, where the atmosphere of abuse is a bit too rich for me. Probably I'm getting too old to savour being called names.

As to Caledonia. i was in a duo with guy from Anstruther for about four years. Caledonia was a song we considered doing. he had a high opinion of the song and felt that certain grammatical constructions like 'steady thinking' were very typically Scottish.

Still if Caledonia is on the road - you don't care to take. that is entirely your right. Its up to you to forge your own compelling statement from the numerous traditions available in our islands.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 05 Feb 20 - 04:07 AM

Having read recent posts I'm glad I stopped listening when I did.

As for Caledonia; I have a very low opinion of that song because there's nothing in it that's specific to Scotland. You could change "Caledonia" to the name of any other country in the world and the song would make just as much (or just as little) sense.

And Gaelic a dialect? Well, the Gaelic (in English pronounced Gallic) of Scotland can be regarded as a dialect (or dialects?) of the Gaelic language, along with others from Man and different parts of Ireland; but is that what they meant?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 07:46 PM

Howard Coleman has run the Loughborough (Luger Barugah as Tim Hardin memorably called it) Acoustic Club since the year dot said something quite interesting on fb recently. Howard's Dad was a jazz player gigging well into his eighties.

Anyway - they're a Jewish family - I never realised til I went to his Dad's funeral, and they asked me to wear a hat. its traditional.

Howard was saying he regretted all the years he played blues, now that he was into klezmer music.

i think that's the nature of folk music. We're all on our own individual journeys. We might make use of the maps laid out for part of the way, but ultimately we're the 'folk' in question.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 09:49 AM

Hoots Mon..Lord Rockingham...

Better than most British folk music.. ever...!!!!!

you can Twist to it... [but probably best not wearing a kilt..]

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 06:17 AM

About 30 years ago I nearly accidentally caused a punch-up in a pub on Exmoor because of Donald Where's Your Troosers. That would have been good folklore. A story for another day...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 06:15 AM

There is an argument for including "Caledonia" though I can't see the Beeb admitting it. It's become an anthem on independence rallies, dreich and mediocre though it is. I last heard it sung at the anti-Brexit rally outside the Scottish Parliament last Friday.

BUT it would have said more about the song's significance if they'd played a recording of a politicized crowd singing it rather than put Dougie Maclean's version on.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 05:54 AM

I have learned over the years that any programme with folk in its title will be a waste of my valuable time, so I won't be listening to this one either.

In a programme about Scottish music, the distortions of the truth mentioned by Jim McLean, the presence of Bob Dylan (!) & absence of Jimmy Shand just confirms my prejudice.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 04:43 AM

Roy , that is the problem ,because they are professional singers they are not necessarily best qualified to talk about the roots of the music.
I think LAKEMAN did acknowledge a little bit of scottish roots, and there was a very superficial discussion of style between east and west coast, but bob dylan and caledonia, i mean why not donald wheres your trousers if we are going to have cal;edonia

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 04:30 AM

Lot of Scottish input to start with ~ no one asked my opinion on Yorkshire songs or Gardham ~ but the young thrusters and professional singers of course get to sing and are given their opinions ~ so be it

Ray

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 03:41 AM

I heard that "Gaelic was another Scottish dialect, Hamish Henderson's Freedom Come All Ye was written in the 1920s and that Phil Cunningham was a regular in the Scotia".
What "facts" can I accept in future programs?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 02:37 AM

good to hear Ewan MacColl.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 02:23 AM

but good to hear scottish mouth music

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 02:17 AM

oh no not feckin bob dylan ,jaysus christ

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 02:15 AM

here is an example of what should have been there angus granthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADyHCb8q7eM seth lakeman could have done better

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 02:11 AM

to understand the genre one has to go to its roots ,instead we get caledonia, what an opportunity missed.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 02:08 AM

however the programme falls down by having too little tradtional folk musicians and too much revival musicians, with a little more understanding of the genre we could have had examples of west highland fiddle styles and other trsadtional styles[ no farquar macrae , plus the complte ignoring of jimmy shand is hard to believe

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 01:46 AM

just started listening the first scottish tune is known in ireland as the killarney boys of pleasure, music knows no borders

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 01:40 AM

You really are one-off the small people Steve. I seem to have struck a nerve. I was not complaining, I was clarifying.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 09:39 PM

I think Jabberwock Bandersnatch is the name you meant.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 07:29 PM

I could have sworn that I'd whimsically and inoffensively asked if Cuthbert was related to Cumberdick Bendybatch. Maybe that post didn't take...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 07:26 PM

It would be a damn sight easier if everyone was registered and signed in. You can hardly complain, can you?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 06:50 PM

The post of Feb 3/ 20 was NOT me . I have not posted to this thread since Feb 2 at 9:04.
   The source should not be difficult to find. this place does get smaller and smaller, does it not ?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Cuthbert Lempriere Holthouse
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 05:32 PM

"Look upon it, and weep"

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 05:13 PM

In the last couple of days we've had HiLo, HIlo and Hilo...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 05:10 PM

As maps go it seems rather Brexitized.

A week ago I was in a session with 3 Scots, a Greek whondid American old-time and rembetiko, a Korean kayagum player and a Polish scat singer. I play in another session where we do Scottish, Irish, English, Balkan and klezmer. A full-on klezmer seasion next week and I practice weekly with a Middle Eastern group doing Greek, Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic and Persian material with native speakers for all of them. I meet people on buses carrying sitars and djembes around. I've heard our local Chinese orchestra and Japanese taiko group: I know how to find a group that holds classes in Kurdish Alevi music on the saz, though I haven't met them yet.

And the city records for Edinburgh 500 years ago show we were already paying Flemish, Italian, French, English and Romany performers a fair rate for the job.

The map needs a lot more colours in it.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Feb 20 - 01:12 PM

My that's a large wooden spoon you have there Hilo

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 05:34 PM

From the Gaughan Forum rules (sadly defunct following Dick's ill-health):

No anonymous members.
It is a requirement of forum membership that you let the other members know who you are. There is not a single good reason in a forum of this kind for anonymity. If you are normally known by a nickname, by all means use it here; my birth name was Richard but the only people who ever use that are my parents (both dead) and my two sisters and their children. The no-anonymity rule is not here to check people's birth certificates, it is simply so that we all know who we're talking to and the risk of anonymous trolling is reduced. As said, by all means use a nickname on posts but please put your real name in your member profile and you will be asked to give it when registering.

From the Session help page:

Please use your own name

You can choose any name you want for your membership, but please don’t hide behind a pseudonym with any expectation of anonymity. The Session is not a place for making anonymous remarks.

No duplicate memberships

It’s strictly one membership per person here at The Session. Anyone caught faking a new membership will be expelled.

Remember, you can update your email address, name and other preferences from your member profile so you should have no reason to want more than one membership.

Right, Guest Ed (whoever you are)? Both the above websites operate/operated on broadly the same basis as this one. As far as I know, each has a single moderator. Each one tolerates, or tolerated, absolutely no shit whatsoever and they both run/ran their forums exceptionally smoothly, and the mods in question operated with a light touch. I am/was a member of both for many years and can heartily testify to that fact. I have been bollocked many times personally by Jeremy, not quite so many times by Molly. There are people on here, such as Bearded Bruce and Iains, who would not have lasted TWO MINUTES on either site given their demeanour here. Nothing is perfect and arseholes will always try to get round the system. Of course. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. We stopped uninvited guests from posting below the line. Until that happened, one bloke (for example) was posting under his pseudonym at the same time as posting as an unsigned guest in order to call a couple of us Jew-haters. I'm saying we should make registration and being signed-in a general rule for the whole site. I'm convinced that the ethos of this place would improve no end. I mean, sure, signed-in people can be massive vandals. But they get away with it because the moderators are overrun and can't read all the shite, and they know it. But stop the unsigned guests and make this place members-only and the members will militate against in-house transgressors. At Gaughan and The Session, we members follow the rules and we don't appreciate people who try not to. The multiple moderators here can't keep up, and they scrap among themselves. It's a recipe for the wild west, all of it. And it doesn't have to be this way.

Not my gig.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 04:43 PM

The radio prog was all I wanted in radio. I learned some specific examples of Dylan's plundering of UK folksong. And heard some good music, evocative music, and one contentious concept of "80's Scottish popsong as folk". The case was made IMNSHO.

Give the guy a break, folk music is his life, he knows far more, but only has 4 hours to tell us anything. Not everything is going to be "my" choices, if it was I would already know, listen and learn! The next episodes will certainly contain nuggets, and as many.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 04:14 PM

Sunday Radio Scotland

Now! 21.00-23.00 Grammy nominated violinist Tessa Lark is in town and joins Jamie hot on the heels of her performances at Celtic Connections. Plus fiddle player and composer Duncan Chisholm shares his My Music and Jamie has highlights from the Big Guitar Weekend recorded late last year.

23.00-01.00 Horse McDonald sits in for Iain Anderson
End the day in the company of the songwriting masters of country, folk, blues, soul and rock 'n' roll.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: DaveRo
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 02:46 PM

@GUEST.Ed Thanks for the OP. I still take the Radio Times (as henryp said, there is little space devoted to radio - but that's an infinite amount more than any other publication). But I rarely notice Radio2, so I welcome such posts.

@B2L - thanks for the tips on Radio Scotland too.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tlyrt/episodes/player

As for the British Isles - well, see wikipedia.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 02:35 PM

Mudcat surveillance satellites and drones are getting more effective...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 02:27 PM

John MacKenzie,

May I offer my apologies for what you considered to be an abusive post. My use of a profanity was unnecessary and uncalled for.

I 'd started the initial thread because I thought people might have been interested to be aware about the programme.

As I expected and is the wont of many current Mudcat contributors, more people wanted to sneer than say thanks, and I perhaps mistakenly, put you under that same umbrella. I much regret that.

John and Steve,

It is extremely easy to change or hide your IP address, so if someone is intent to cause nastiness on this forum (I'm not), it's fairly worthless in terms of identifying them.

As for Steve's suggestion that

the very minimum should be that the moderators know exactly who they are and what their real names and emails are.

How would that work? Any fool can set up an email address under any name within a few minutes. As for knowing exactly who they are what are you suggesting?

Driving Licences, Passports, Birth Certificates, Credit Card details, Bank Statements?

Don't be ridiculous.

Ed

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 01:14 PM

Don't bother me much anyway..

I'm a British folkie who aint too interested in Brit Folk and all the petty squabbles..

Not now since I've found so much far more interesting and stimulating East European Folk music
easily available on the internet...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,HIlo
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 12:59 PM

Most of the "confounded morons" I have come across here have been neither Guests nor anonymous, but "signed in" members well known to us all.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 12:05 PM

The producer is Tom Pooley for TBI Media.

A whirlwind tour of the folk and traditional music of the British Isles.

"the use of the problematic term 'British Isles', which is sure to irk many in the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere..."

If the term irks anybody, it is likely to be someone from the Isle of Man. We shall see.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 10:51 AM

Surprised that nobody yet has mentioned the use of the problematic term 'British Isles', which is sure to irk many in the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 09:16 AM

Seth's series is of little interest to me with no live music.

Anyway, BBC Radio Scotland put on live music from Celtic Connections - 2 hours last Wednesday on Travelling Folk, and 2 hours yesterday on Take the Floor. There is another 3 hours this evening from Scottish Young Trad award final and who knows what I've missed!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 08:35 AM

I never saw you as one who ran with the fox but hunted with the hound, John! ;-)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 08:26 AM

Yes, and that last sentence, is why my brief career as a mod was cut short, at the insistence of one who shall remain nameless.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 08:07 AM

I don't think they can pin down anonymous guests, John. I've had this debate with the mods a number of times. For some crazy reason they seem to prefer the laissez-faire, wild west approach.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Feb 20 - 07:42 AM

Thanks Steve. I purposely refrained from responding to that abusive post. I was not knocking the programme, I was asking what I consider a valid question, what has Mark Radcliffe got to do with Scottish folk music? That was all. I did go on to suggest that it might be connected to the production company, and that was all.
As far as the anonymity of the poster goes, moderators can see IP addresses, and will know who posted it. It is also their decision to let abusive posts remain, a decision I disagree with, as I think all abusive posts made anonymously, and maybe even known poster's contributions too, at times,should be deleted.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 08:20 PM

"Oh fuck off, John MacKenzie.

Is there any love or positivity in your mean spirited comment?

See the original post in this thread."

Right. Let me just say this. Any arsehole can come here and make an anonymous post of this ilk. Yes, I get the argument that occasional leading lights, who don't necessarily want to commit themselves, can come here and contribute. But how often does that actually happen, and would they REALLY not bother posting if they had to do the honourable thing and sign in? I have my doubts.

We don't know who the bastard was who posted this. We get excommunicated people posting above the line in exactly the same mean-spirited and provocative style they employed as members. Akenaton shall remain nameless, for example. So why don't we change things for the better? Make everyone register and sign in. They can use their stupid sobriquets for all I care, but the very minimum should be that the moderators know exactly who they are and what their real names and emails are. Make that the minimum requirement of membership. You might lose a very few occasional big stars, but you'll lose a damn sight more confounded morons of the kind that posted the thing I quoted. Not my gig, of course.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 05:57 PM

You are talking Lakepersons of Crapstone-in-Yelverton here...

Last time I saw those lads was in a street session in Wadebridge in 1993. They were still little nippers at the time. Met Geoff in our folk club at about the same time when Jinx's Stack were performing (worry not, Graham, I've lost the bodhran since then...) He had his concertina with him but I don't remember him playing.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 05:36 PM

I've just started listening. Very early in the programme he refers to "one of my favourite ever Scottish folk acts". "Folk acts"? Are they not just a group of musicians? Or are they actors?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 05:30 PM

Well, the hour passed quite quickly. Some history, some established performers and some new ones. Some interesting items, some of no interest at all.

Next stop - England. I'm happy to tune in again.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 02:29 PM

Oh fuck off, John MacKenzie.

Is there any love or positivity in your mean spirited comment?

See the original post in this thread.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 02:19 PM

Mark Radcliffe....why ?
Or can we guess which production company is behind it?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 01:40 PM

Dick - yeah, agreed on all your points...

When the beeb suffers fully under this tory govt.
we'll be lucky to get 10 second soundbytes...

Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM

well I have set the recorder, because I am a participator and tonight is Stroud Ceilidhs and subsequent Saturdays will be French/Irish Set/Cajun/you get the idea.. I will be enjoying it whatever. Mind you, it is background music to my happytapping, archiving Ghost Signs, or Milestones/Finger Posts/Boundary Stones, or tending my event listing site.

If it is half as good as his playing, then it will be well worth the listen IMNSHO.