BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 08:14 AM

It ought to be ' NO RELEASE ' for convicted terrorists, they cannot be reformed because they are fanatics, whenever they are released they WILL do it again.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 08:20 AM

Yes you are right!

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 08:26 AM

I agree. These are extremely dangerous people, and could be the cause of the deaths of many innocent folk.
I don't believe they can ever be 'deradicalised'. Such a mindset is deeply ingrained and part of a terrorist's inner make-up.
Also, prisons need to be implementing far more scrutiny into what's going on among 'radical' inmates. Apparently they get together in there and reinforce their tenets.
I'm not being racist, just anti-terrorist. As most of you know, my own husband is a black Muslim, and he absolutely abhors so-called Islamic murder of 'kafirs'.
Actually, I think many sentences meted out in the courts are far too lenient, for many types of crime. And sentences are usually not indicative of the amount of time served.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 08:49 AM

Just to provide essential balance...

I am mostly left of centre on key social and economic policies,
but I will argue that 'law n order' issues are not just a monopoly for flog em and hang em tories..

It matters to all of us..
there is no shame for lefties to agree with the right on 'harsher' sentencing solutions..

In fact my views on dealing with terrorists and criminals are probably even more extreme
than a lot of conservatives would be comfortable agreeing with...

Providing we abide by decent humane conditions for prisoners and probationers..
Aspiring for realistic long term rehabilitation training..
But accepting and accommodating lost cases where this is never a possible outcome

We all need and will benefit from mature rational pragmatic debate on these issues..

Traditional typical left v right knee-jerk reactions help nobody...

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 08:52 AM

But will more prisons be built? Will more prison warders be employed?
Most likely not.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Charmion
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 09:08 AM

Unfortunately, few prison guards have the slightest notion of what to do with convicted terrorists. They have a hard enough time dealing with greed-motivated and drug-addled offenders, let alone those driven to violence by warped ideologies.

We must not forget that even terrorists can repent, and those who do must be allowed to atone for the wrong they have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 09:32 AM

If it needs stating for the umpteenth time..

A serious failing of tory govts on law and order, policing, prisons, etc,
is they don't like putting our money where their mouths are..

They can bluster and and shift blame in the media like champions,
but will never adequately fund their big bold new initiatives...

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 09:57 AM

I suppose I could say I know quite a bit about UK prisons, having been inside eight of them, including two 'A' Cat ones. And it's true that prison officers have an awful time and earn every penny of their salaries. A surprising proportion of inmates have mental health problems, appalling backgrounds (abuse, neglect etc) and can be frighteningly violent.
I also have an innate feeling of pity and care about any human being on the 'wrong side' of society. After all, a baby is a blank canvas, and someone must have written bad things on it to make it an evil, dangerous person.
But we must protect society from danger. Paedophiles, terrorists, violent robbers and drug barons etc are totally toxic to us.

I often think of Dickens' quote from A Christmas Carol: (Scrooge) "Are there no prisons? And the Union workhouses?" There must surely be other solutions out there, but I can't for the life of me think what they might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 03:20 PM

[right then.. normal service is resumed..
what I was typing and previewing earlier before the black-out was...]

Sen - your overview on prisons is invaluable, and your compassion without question..

So it'd be interesting to read your opinions
on what many of us consider to be
the tory party's disastrous ideological driven privatisation of prison services...???

thanks..

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 03:50 PM

punkfolkrocker, there are I think about 117 prisons in UK, of which only 14 or so are privately run.
The eight I've been in were not privately managed. But the violence, drug use, mental illness, prison officer stress etc were awful.
A prison is inspected regularly by government inspectors, and they're very thorough. But their recommendations & criticisms can be unrealistic. For example, Norwich Prison (where I started my visiting, and got to know very well) was deemed too Victorian and the inspectors forced a whole Wing to close.
Physical conditions aren't too bad (adequate heating, food, exercise, therapy etc) but the main problem for any inmate is the other inmates! They are bullies, viciously violent with various addictions, and very disturbed in general.
But I digress (sorry)
The Muslims in jail have an Imam and regular prayers etc which is perfectly acceptable. But radicals/jihadis run little units of terrorism on the Wings. It's hard to imagine how this could be stopped. Work on the Wings is exhausting enough without officers having to 'listen in' to discussions. Most of their time is trying to turn cells over for drugs, and dealing with outbreaks of fighting and violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 03:52 PM

Let's hope the 'Usual Suspects' behave themselves!

Who are they then, Eliza. Don't be shy. It's not like you to make veiled accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 04:34 PM

Sorry, SRS, but I can’t agree that ’another dual-platform is going with this one now’

This thread isn’t about UK Politics, it’s about a terrorist threat, and the best way to deal with terrorists when they are sentenced to a prison term. Nothing to do with ‘UK Politics’ per se, everything to do with our national security.

Or is national security only important when it’s US national security?

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 05:33 PM

Terrorists and the UK is a political discussion. Don't kid yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 06:05 PM

I was wondering where the early release policy came from in the first place. I haven't investigated, but my suspicion is that since keeping people in prisons is expensive, and building more prisons even more so, the primary motive is to keep the cost down. Shorter sentences would of course achieve that, but that is unpopular with the public and does not fit a 'tough on crime' image.   

So we end up in the position of long sentences but few people serve them. Of course, the potential for early release is an important part of getting good behaviour from prisoners, but I suspect it is not the main motivating factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 06:22 PM

We need to reduce overcrowding in prisons by keeping non-dangerous people out and doing something more imaginative (preferably painfully and grossly inconvenient but constructive) with them. Fraudsters, shoplifters and guys who steal jewels or cars, for example. We've had this business of "only serving half their sentences" before. Judges set sentences with that fully in mind. The mindset should be that no-one convicted of a violent or terrorist-related offence is entitled to be released at all unless an extremely thorough review process, backed by a well-funded and professional rehabilitation scheme and afterwards by a properly-funded probation service, has determined that the offender is not a danger to the public. I can't think for one second why this man was released in the knowledge that he would need 24-hour surveillance. That's just potty.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 06:31 PM

Maybe some bright spark in law enforcement who's watched too many TV spy shows
thought if they let 'em out early they'll be carelessly obliging enough to lead the cops
to sleeper cells and terrorist leaders...???

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 06:33 PM

I agree with you Steve. But the Probation Service needs a bit of an overhaul too. In my (admittedly not vast) experience, they often fail newly-released prisoners, and the Probation Officers I came across were fairly disinterested and unhelpful.

I think what you're saying is that different types of crime require different solutions/punishments, and I concur with that. Some petty crimes could be rectified by a more professional approach during the sentence and upon release. I knew a Bail Hostel in Norwich ( for newly-released inmates) which was rather inadequate, and the Warden was an absolute twit, unskilled, untrained, stroppy and over-opinionated.

But the dangerous, serious and murderous types should hardly ever warrant release, unless one can be very sure they won't re-offend, a condition hardly possible to fulfil.

Releasing a chap who needed enormous amounts of surveillance was, as you say, crazy and indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 06:53 PM

A combination of probation or parole with a jail or prison sentence can be very effective, but too often probation and parole departments do not get funding enough to do what they are tasked to do. Parole agents need to have active and regular contact with the people under their supervision. Too often, budget cuts limit client contact to once-a-month phone or postcard checkins, and the officers rarely have face-to-face contact with those under their supervision.
We have a very activist Chief Probation Officer in our county and he's dedicated to doing the job right. And his efforts really make a difference.

I haven't seen anything yet about the stabbing suspect's criminal history - just that he was sentenced for "terrorism-related" offenses. What was his past?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Feb 20 - 11:40 PM

Prison places could run out in two years, watchdog warns

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 02:02 AM

”Terrorists and the UK is a political discussion. Don't kid yourselves.”

Thank you for that eloquent, carefully-reasoned response.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 03:39 AM

Parties of all political creeds have been accused of neglecting all aspects of law and order, so there is little point in making a political football out of the issue.
The issue here is convicted terrorrists;
Do you let a rabid dog run free?
Do you let a Wuhan coronavirus carrier run free?
Why let an unreformed terrorist free?

The antiterrorist forces are limited, full surveillance of just one person requires many people.

There s also a human rights aspect. The surveillance tools for antiterrorism can also be applied elswhere. Who polices the "policemen" The UK is the most surveilled country in the world and few are aware of just how deep it can go.
For example: In Ireland(where the following information is in the public domain)
Under the 2009 Act:
    Gardaí or the Defence Forces can tap phones and listen to phone calls, open and read letters before they arrive to their recipient, and (potentially) read emails
    Gardaí, the Defence Forces and Revenue can secretly record you with audio and video devices
    For three months
    They can break into your home to implant a device, and again to remove it
    If they can, they have to get permission from a District Court judge, but if it’s an emergency, a “Superior Officer” in each agency decides, and they get 72 hours to engage in the surveillance
    Gardaí, the Defence Forces and Revenue can secretly put a tracking device on your vehicle, and follow your movements
    For four months
    Without permission from a District Court judge, but with the approval of a “Superior Officer” within each agency.

With surveillance we are expected to take a lot on trust. In the uk surveillance extends much further and much deeper. Back in the days of ban the bomb marches the security forces kept tabs on participants and likewise union activists (to name but a few). During the subsequent 50 years their capabilities haave expanded much further.
Whatever route is chosen to deal with terrorists long term will involve a moral and financial discussion. Also the more resources developed to identify,monitor and isolate terrorists, the more they can be used against the people. With an opposition party barely even existing in name, all society is at potential risk from the state.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 04:16 AM

In answer to Joe's question about the young man's 'previous', Sudesh Amman was convicted of distributing terrorist propaganda and inciting others to acts of terrorism when he was 18. His mother says 'He was a nice boy', but mums always say that don't they? He was also found to be in possession of cannabis ( not very Islamic!?!)
He apparently urged his girlfriend to slaughter her parents for being infidels.
I can well believe they're running out of prison places. Even when I was visiting, cells originally designed for one person were made into two-ups and even three-ups, with tiered bunks and so on.
I do feel that the whole judiciary and penal systems need a complete overhaul.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 06:24 AM

The UK is the most surveilled country in the world .....
For example: In Ireland ......
.... Gardaí or the Defence Forces can .....

The Garda is the state police force of the Republic of Ireland - nothing to do with the UK.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 06:51 AM

The point I was making was that the Irish Republic is quite open about the extent of surveillance, That is not true of the UK.
I do not think it needs to be brought to anyione's attention that Treland is not part of the UK. The Irish Free State came into being in 1922, after an Independance war.(You would think Varakar would have a little more sympathy for the UK trying to break free of the EU tentacles)

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 10:08 AM

I'm not too paranoid about Hi Tech surveillance..
If I've ever been under covert scrutiny due to my friends and associates in the Labour party;
or mates in punk rock bands who flirted with anarchy back in the day....
well what a stupid waste of intelligence agencies' time and money...???

But if it's money that could be better spent on more Bobbies on the beat, and career criminals apprehended
then that's what I'd vote for...

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 10:27 AM

However, it shouldn't, mustn't, be either/or..

Both aspects of policing and security need to be properly funded
and implemented..

We pay the taxes...

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 10:30 AM

Pfr a potential threat from any source has to be assessed, even little old ladies! In hindsight many may be a waste of finite resources, but until quantified nothing that comes up on the radar can be disregarded.
In the greater scheme of things the UK risk is low.


https://ourworldindata.org/terrorism

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 11:12 AM

Iains - No problems agreeing with you on that...

Though I'd question if security agencies are hampered and distracted from prioritising
more urgent obvious 21st century threats,
by institutionalised outdated cold war 'reds under the bed' bias...???

If it still happens [?????], there are no acceptable excuses for wasting money and resources
on habitual monitoring of trade unionists
and mainstream non-conservative party political activists...

However, I'm sure we can all agree it is good that home grown white supremacist terror
is now taken [almost ?] as seriously as IS...

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 03:12 PM

Senoufou says: Sudesh Amman was convicted of distributing terrorist propaganda and inciting others to acts of terrorism when he was 18.

Seems to me that wasn't all that serious an offense, and nothing that would predict the horrific stabbings he committed this week. A longer sentence would be overly harsh. Certainly, a person like that should be under surveillance, but it appears the surveillance failed.

But it doesn't seem to me that the early release was unjustified.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 03:43 PM

I can't help feeling terribly sad that this young man is now dead, at the age of only twenty, with his whole life ahead of him. His family must be completely grief-stricken.
The fact he obviously represented a huge danger to society is indisputable, but whatever were the evil influences on him to turn him into this malevolent monster?
I often wonder about the mental health of criminals. It's a known fact that many 'inside' are mentally ill, and one can hardly blame them for what they've done if that is the case.
However, the dilemma rests in how to protect us all from their actions.
Visiting 'my'inmates always left me sad and worried for them, as well as horrified at their mindsets and crimes. An enormous conflict of feelings on my part!

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 05:01 PM

Agreed, Senoufou. I don't think that humane sentiments toward the criminal, are in any way disrespectful toward the victims of the crime. The entire situation saddens me, for all involved.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Feb 20 - 05:50 PM

I'm no psychologist, although Psychology was one of my study subjects during my postgraduate education course. However, as a teacher I did come across pupils who were very difficult and anti-social. Some of them might have stolen things from their classmates, caused fights in the playground, bullied others and resented any discipline or control.
And they were always always damaged in some way at home. I could tell on Parents' Evening why these children had turned out to be so dodgy.
There was always some inner trouble, sadness or resentment.
And 'my' inmates were the same. Troubled, sad inside, full of suppressed anger etc. I felt like their Granny really, listening to them on visits.
No human being is a simple set-up. Every person is complex and a mixture of all sorts of influences.
But the dangerous ones can't just be let loose to roam the streets attacking and murdering random members of the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 06:12 AM

Don't forget these terrorists have a choice like anyone else - to follow or not follow. If the follow route is chosen, then they must expect the consequences!!

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Iains
Date: 08 Feb 20 - 07:26 AM

But the dangerous ones can't just be let loose to roam the streets attacking and murdering random members of the public.
Certainly, a person like that should be under surveillance, but it appears the surveillance failed.

A surveillance team cannot act until a law has been broken.Walking along a street with evil intent is not a crime. It was seemingly a random action with no prior information to suggect it was going to occur.
Lonewolf terrorist actions are almost impossible to predict or prevent Even those seemingly deradicalised commit terrorist acts.

Should they ever be released or should they be pernmanently wearing tags? Religion causes a lot of grief.
Christianity has moved with the times, aspects of fundementalist Islam seems stuck in the time of the Crusades. How do you change that?

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 20 - 11:49 PM

Iains, fundamentalism of all religions is stuck in the past, and tied to violence or at least anger. Christian fundamentalism is just as dangerous as Islamic fundamentalism. And even Buddhist extremists are dangerous in some nations. I think that in the name of freedom, we have to accept that there are some crimes we cannot prevent without violating essential elements of individual freedom. We have to choose whether we want to exert such an extreme amount of control on our society.
As for myself, I'll take the risk and opt for freedom. The alternative is unfathomable.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 10:19 AM

Ah, Joe, the alternative is only too fathomable. Here's a photo of the West Bank "anti-terrorist" barrier: "Ich bin ein Berliner"

Among the many reasons I was glad to leave the Public Service of Canada was my release from the constant performance of security theatre at my workplace. And then there is the hassle of modern air travel.

It's only too easy to imagine that happening on a street near you.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 10:59 AM

"We have to choose whether we want to exert such an extreme amount of control on our society."

Dealing with and attempting to heal what motivates individual terrorists and violent criminals
should be secondary to getting them locked away,
so that they are no longer a real or potential danger to the public...

I'm a compassionate lefty, and also some sort of libertarian,
but I am prepared to accept tighter controls on freedoms
that crazy fanatics of any and all faiths or political ideologies currently enjoy...

I consider it as a necessary pragmatic compromise for the greater societal good...

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 11:34 AM

The prisons in this country are full to bursting, many are badly run and many are breeding grounds for radicalisation. The rehabilitation and monitoring schemes in place are mostly a joke and the probation service is grossly underfunded. On top of that the Tories have slashed the numbers of police. Unless and until we fix these things, these mistakes will continue to happen. Rattling on about locking 'em up and throwing away the key (not saying for one second that that might not be sometimes necessary) is aiming at the wrong target.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 11:43 AM

Steve - tory govts will never fund everything we agree is vitally needed for real joined up system wide solutions..

Just hot air bluster and blame shifting - that's all we can ever expect from them...

But would the next* Labour Govt have the strength and decisiveness to make all the necessary changes...???



[* trying to be an optimist...]

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 11:47 AM

.. though police do seem to be testing our tolerance for 'shoot to kill' just lately..

Maybe it's a tory pilot scheme for a more radical and cost effective long term solution...???

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 11:49 AM

I don't know, but what I do know is that that is a long way off, and we have to battle to get these things right with the sorry lot we've got now.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:09 PM

No need to walk on eggshells. We're talking about strategies to oppose terrorism, perfectly distinct from Br*x*t, el*ct*ons, B*zo the Cl*wn and the plight of the L*bo*r P*r*y. And it took me a bloody long time to type that, so behave!

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:09 PM

Blimey, that was quick...

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 01:12 PM

The "Single Intelligence Account", which is the funding vehicle for the intelligence services (MI5, MI6 and GCHQ), has not suffered real terms cuts.

SIA funding increased from £2bn in 2011-12 to £2.3bn in 2015-16, a real terms increase of 11 per cent.

And the 2015 Spending Review committed to protect police spending in real terms up to 2020.

It also said it would spend £3.4bn, or 30 per cent more, in real terms between 2015 and 2020 on "key counter-terrorism capabilities" across government.

This is supposed to include £2bn for UK Special Forces, £1.4bn for the intelligence agencies and £500m for the Home Office (including a real terms increase in the counter terrorism police grant)

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Feb 20 - 11:45 PM

Charmion, you gave a mild example of the graffiti on the Israeli Wall. Google images for Bethlehem Wall, and you'll find some terrific stuff. The graffiti along the Arab side of the wall at Bethlehem, are particularly clever. The Wikipedia article is also very good, but not as colorful. There is powerful and intelligent resistance on the Arab side of the struggle in Israel, and I see real hope there.
Go to Bethlehem - it's a thrill! They're nowhere near ready to give up. And in building their Wall, the Israelis have given them a canvas for extraordinary artwork.

In December, 2016, Trump announced his decision to move the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. I was in the middle of a protest demonstration at Damascus Gate the next day. The event was dominated by young women. It was peaceful and well-organized, very clever, and very effective. These young women are going to win.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 07:44 AM

There is no hope while your country continues to bankroll Israel's military, along with the political statement that that makes to the Palestinians, and adding to that Trump's hubristic support for the evil leader of the Israeli government. You see hope, I see progress in the wrong direction and a lot of trouble ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 08:31 AM

WE now talk about terrorists as thought they are as British as Hovis and the Beatles,
but remember it is Israel and that wider region which is the primary breeding ground
for the terrorism we now have to fear even more than Ireland or UK white nationalists...

Wealthiest right wing Americans propping up the Israeli regime
can't be unaware of the terror
they are perpetuating and spreading for us, their supposed allies. and the rest of the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Convicted terrorists - no early release!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Feb 20 - 08:49 AM

No matter how many extra billions are spent bolstering our intelligence services capabilities to monitor
and catch terrorists;
that is not addressing the problem of what we then do with these bad guys who will need imprisonment and deradicalising,
or more importantly preventing them becoming radicalised in the first place...

The ball is back in Trump's court..
He could at least pay for building the extra prisons we'll need because of the problems he will cause
by so arrogantly meddling abroad...