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Source singers and their songs
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 27 Feb 20 - 12:21 PM I'll tell you what else we might expect, and that is your good self Pseudo to take heed of Joe Offers' comment on February 25th. I'm closing this for now. One troll posted, and everybody took the bait, plus it seems the subject of music doesn't matter if you have an opportunity to fight with one another. I expect Joe Offer will re-open it at some point. For those of you who resisted the urge, thank you. -Mod |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 27 Feb 20 - 09:06 AM "Because she was here before posting with a name and telling us that Clare farmers learned their songs from blues records She had he membership withdrawn eventually" More nonsense and smears from Jim Carroll. But what else do we expect? |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Feb 20 - 02:51 PM Jeannie used to Joke that it was strange to thing she was awarded an MBE and still be refused service in the local shops Ireland has taken a massive leap forward - it's a shame that it has taken the disclosure of centuries of child-rape and the enslavery of 'fallen' women to get there Meanwhile, the Republic of Ireland has grown into a modern, liberal state. Not sure of that, and I'm not sure I'm sorry Sinn Feinn walked away with the recent election and the shenanigans of the 'liberal party' in trying to keep them out is only going to strengthen that victory Interesting days Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 26 Feb 20 - 12:42 PM I've calmed down a bit now. I don't usually go off the deep end, however thank you for the kind posts. On a positive note, I've spent the afternoon coach lining a dray at the Blackpool Gypsy camp, laughing and cracking jokes and discussing Tyson Fury in glowing terms. (The family are related to him) and I've come home to a warm cottage with my lady wife happily within looking forward to the festival season. It's not all bad! Bob Lewis is wonderful by the way Dick. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,henryp Date: 26 Feb 20 - 12:15 PM The Republic of Ireland has come through great social changes. In progressive legislation, it could now be regarded as a model for its neighbour. Subject: RE: BBC Radio: Folk Map of the British Isles From: GUEST,henryp Date: 11 Feb 20 - 03:39 AM I wonder if Seth Lakeman will find any musical record of the enormous social changes that have taken place in the Republic of Ireland. Look at the lifetime of Edna O'Brien. She said, "I rebelled against the coercive and stifling religion into which I was born and bred." Her first book, The Country Girls, published in 1960, was added to the long list of books banned in Ireland under the Censorship of Publications Act, 1929. By 2012, Mary Robinson, the President of Ireland, recognised her as "one of the great creative writers of her generation". Although she married and moved to London in 1954, her main subject remains Ireland. Meanwhile, the Republic of Ireland has grown into a modern, liberal state. P.S. There are still countries where girls desperately need protection. Now in her eighties, Edna O'Brien wrote her most recent book, Girl, after she travelled to Nigeria to speak to girls who had been kidnapped by jihadist group Boko Haram. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jack Campin Date: 26 Feb 20 - 09:00 AM My wife was taken into a nunnery when she was a child for the crime of being a Gypsy. No Christmas, no Birthdays, no children to play with, desperate fear of the mother superior behind her red curtain. In Scotland at least, the NSPCC carried a lot of the responsibility for that. As far as they were concerned, no Gypsy could ever be a responsible parent, and they instigated kidnappings by the social services for decades. They are now on a campaign to ban encryption on Facebook. Mainly they are being stooges for the security services, but I'm sure any thug with a bent copper friend would be delighted to have their victims' personal details accessible in return for a small favour. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 26 Feb 20 - 08:46 AM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Utlar1vDI jeannie robertson, take that pseud |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Brian Peters Date: 26 Feb 20 - 07:05 AM Good grief, Nick, that's a horrendous account. A timely post, though. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Feb 20 - 06:56 AM "Mary was generally " Should read Mary was extremely friendly "descrived " - Described Jim |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Feb 20 - 05:23 AM "from Jim Carroll is that she was lonely and depressed, " Again, undigested Mary was generally and extremely gregarious throughout her time on the road Not long after she got her younger children back she decided to try and have them educated - the only way she could possibly do this is to move into a flat, which the then sympathetic Hackney Labour Council (on the advice of Ken Livingstone) helped her to do For the period she was in her depressingly empty flat, she became equally depressed - alone all day and unable even to watch television During that perion we continued to visit and record her - it was during that time we made some of the best recordings of her When she returned back on the road she became her old self Please learn to read everything that is put up - not just what suits you to believe I have no idea what you are talking about (other unnamed guest) - feel free to elucidate No-one here has descrived what Travelers do - there's isn't space on Mudcat to list the various ways they earn their living We have a ten minute long recording of Mikeen McCarthy listing the various jobs he has done during his then comparatively short life - the last photograph we took of him is him standing next to a beatifully restored bier he had just completed A number of people have described them as idle, thieving refuse-leaving scavengers - they are the descriptions that stick ouut in my mind I may be ultra-sensitive - but given how Travellers are treated by society, I THINK I MIGHT BE FORGIVEN THE OCCASIONAL LAPSE Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 26 Feb 20 - 03:55 AM The bit that sticks in my mind about Mary Delaney from Jim Carroll is that she was lonely and depressed, and therefore delighted when he and Pat turned up to collect songs from her and reluctant to let them go. Obviously a case where enlightened social services might have been able to do something, but failed. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST Date: 26 Feb 20 - 03:46 AM @ Nick Dow. It is obviously very wrong when people are subjected to racist behaviour. However, a) you know nothing about what I do or do not know about Travellers and b) nobody is denying that such things happen. Generally It strikes me as ironic that on the same web site I encounter some people who seem hell bent on underplaying the obvious racism of a man who had to be told that Black American under-achievement was due to racism not their race and also on slagging off one of the few writers to point out this racism. As it happens I once posted a message in which I criticised negatives stereotypes of Travellers, giving examples of types of work that they did to show that the stereotyping was wrong. Jim Carroll took the example stereotype from my post and put it all over the place falsely claiming that these words represented my opinions. I would be careful about the friends you choose. Because for me stuff like that gives anti-racism pro equality movements a bad name. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 26 Feb 20 - 03:39 AM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hh3MlGBAbg pseud what do you think of this. bob lewis |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 26 Feb 20 - 03:19 AM Can I just add a story regarding Mary to this - it's relevant because it concerns Mary's father Terry (nicknamed 'Sue' - a reference to the song, 'A Boy Named Sue') Mary says, was her inspiration as a singer (she always referred to her traditional songs as "my daddies songs" (though, I believe, she was talking about the type of song, rather than the actual songs she knew) We met him on several occasions; he was a knd, friendly man but an extremely heavy drinker - he could only remember around half a dozen fragments) - we eventually found why he took to the drink Mary had a sister who was also blind - a family thing obviously The family managed to raise enough support and money to have one of the two sisters tested and treated - Mary's sister was chosen It was found that her condition was possibly treatable and a doctor carried out a corrective operation Mary's father was at the hospital when the bandages were removed, a 'friendly' priest accompanied her The bandages were removed and her sister had regained some of her sight - which shortly faded again, never to return Terry, extremely, upset, told the priest what had transpired and was asked "did you thank God for her recovery ?" When he replied that he had been too excited, he was told, "That's why God's gift was taken from her again" From then on, Terry's life disintegrated - he blamed himself for his daughter's blindness and was never the same again It is cruelty and inhumanity such as this that have helped form my own somewhat jaundiced view of the Church and authority, I confess Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) Date: 25 Feb 20 - 06:23 PM Well said Nick (and Jim) |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:51 PM While we're on that subject, try talking to Trish Nolan (John Reilly's niece) who had her young life destroyed by such a kidnap. Then you might like to listen to the song she wrote on the subject. I love the way the likes of Pseud reckon they know so much about Travellers when they know sod all. My wife was taken into a nunnery when she was a child for the crime of being a Gypsy. No Christmas, no Birthdays, no children to play with, desperate fear of the mother superior behind her red curtain. It resulted in a complete nervous breakdown by the age of eight. When she was rescued by her family and taken off in a wagon to Topcliffe fair, it took her months to speak a single word. Eventually her uncle Charlie and her Grand mother Nora coaxed her back to life. When she went to school for the first time, she was beaten, tied to a lamp post and pissed on by children and so called adults as well, for being a Gypsy. Thank you Jim for mentioning some thing that is close to my heart. When we lived in static Trailers, the abuse started on my Grandchildren who were spat at. The two of them were in a pram at the time. They just go for the easy target, like all racists do, and they reckon it's Gypsies who steal children! Jim has been around Travellers, so have I for half my lifetime. If you want to discuss Travellers songs go right ahead, but please do not sit behind your computer making comments about how we should behave, what is or is not professional when it comes to a relationship with Travellers. Especially when you have no first hand knowledge. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:55 PM AND AGAIN Mad as a bag of froga Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:54 PM "Unless Jim can demonstrate that he had the family's permission " Stop being a destructive influence by making ludicrous suggestions Do you deny taking Trailer children into care publicly - without permission from their parents is now commonplace and regularly covered oin the press Are you suggsting this should be secretive THERE YOU GO |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:35 PM I believe that the moderators should delete the offending post and all those that follow after it. Unless Jim can demonstrate that he had the family's permission to disclose that information online to the whole world.
Now, return to the discussion and stop trying to play "gotcha." -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Cj Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:32 PM "rather than engaging in knee-jerk defences of the culprit" Sorry, I missed this. Who's being knee-jerk defending you? |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:28 PM Perhaps the point I made could have been clearer. It is perfectly possible to discuss questions relating to prejudice against Travellers without disclosing private information relating to the family of one person who was acting as an informant to a song collector. Doing this strikes me as unprofessional in the extreme. It seems particularly inappropriate when the person making the disclosure has, in another context, complained at length over a number of posts about somebody's favourite meal being discussed on the grounds that this was a personal matter. And responding to this is not a question of rising to a person's bait. Moreover, if people on this thread do not see that this is a real and important ethical issue, leave alone on relating to song collectors in general getting the trust of communities they deal with, then as far as I am concerned, they are the ones who need to think again, rather than engaging in knee-jerk defences of the culprit. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Brian Peters Date: 25 Feb 20 - 01:28 PM "Lankum's version must be by far the worst - a four times as long as it needs to be dirge" A matter of opinion, but she can bloody well sing! |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 20 - 09:41 AM "Jim, you're doing it again! Don't rise to her bait!" Not really John - I never miss the opportunity to put the Travellers case - they have far too few enough advocates on their behalf In a way, it's perfectly on topic - a Traveller singer using her song to display her feelings about what life has doled up for her - isn't that what all folk-songs are about !! "Re-Lankum and Radie Peat." Sorry - of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world..... Lankum's version must be by far the worst - a four times as long as it needs to be dirge Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Rain Dog Date: 25 Feb 20 - 06:42 AM "Re-Lankum and Radie Peat.(hope that's spelt correctly) I rather like her singing. It's got that hard traditional edge which you mainly get from Irish singers." I like Lisa O'Neill as well. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: r.padgett Date: 25 Feb 20 - 06:11 AM Re-Lankum and Radie Peat.(hope that's spelt correctly) I rather like her singing. It's got that hard traditional edge which you mainly get from Irish singers. Yes I do admire Radie's singing voice too Ray |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:51 AM This is getting confusing for non combatants....Walter Pardon's tea, and Irish traveller children... Its a bit like that quiz show, Only Connect...spot the connection.. I'll choose the horned viper next... |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Brian Peters Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:50 AM "Pat and I recorded this from blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney in the 1970s" And thanks for linking that magnificent performance, Jim - though I had heard it before. Like Nick, I think Lankum do it justice, and you might be surprised how far it has spread from that one recording. I've heard several US performers (including the Foghorn String Band of all people) sing it, possibly inspired by Cathy Jordan, who has taught it at Appalachian summer schools. Peta Webb and Ken Hall do a really nice harmony version, and just last week I heard Sam Baxter, a very talented 20-year-old singer and musician here in Glossop, finish his support set to Martin Carthy with it. The interesting thing is that none of those people use any instrumental accompaniment, and all sing it in pretty much the same free timing as Mary Delaney. It doesn't seem to have been 'folk-revival-processed'! |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:38 AM Jim, you're doing it again! Don't rise to her bait! |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:33 AM "I am just thinking about whether it is right to discuss stuff like people being taken into care." Bloody nonsense in the light of the fact that many Traveller children are taken into care because the state will not allow Travellers the rights to bring their children up with electricity running water and sanitation Evictions of Travellers from 'illegal' sites, lading to them having nowhere else to go commonly lead to parents forced into emergency accommodation and their children taken into care In Mary's case, the powers that be decided that a lone blind woman on the road was an unfit mother (despite the fact that the Travelling community is such that it would have rallied in support of someone in her position) Some of course, would love to be able to sweep this inhumanity under the carpet rather than come to terms with the ethnic cleansing of Travellers that is systematically taking place today Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:16 AM I am just thinking about whether it is right to discuss stuff like people being taken into care. Given the objections made to a friend and neighbour of WP telling us what he asked her to make for his tea? But of course permission would have been sought for this public disclosure? @ Al A post of mine seems to have been deleted. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 25 Feb 20 - 05:00 AM if i sat in a uk folk revival club and heard someone sing the song that walter sang unaccompanied and drift up a tone after five minutes, i would be happy enough in fact i would prefer it to some of the shuffling through bits of paper to hear unlearned third rate copies of pop songs. Walter learned his songs and loved singing them he was not a trainedopera singer but he had respect for his material and did his best to do justice to the songs in front of an audience even though he had to be gently persuaded to sing out in front of audiences. unlike harry cox or sam larner , i understand walter preferred to sing his songs at home for his own pkeasure. i find your postings a disgrace and an illustration of your ignorance of source singers. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Nick Dow Date: 25 Feb 20 - 04:36 AM Re-Lankum and Radie Peat.(hope that's spelt correctly) I rather like her singing. It's got that hard traditional edge which you mainly get from Irish singers. I sent Ian (from Lankum) some recordings of Gypsy singers from my neck of the woods, so we'll see what happens. Take a listen to Radie's rendition of Dark horse on the wind; the late Liam Weldon's song. You could do worse than listen to the man himself by the way. His sources were the Irish Travellers. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 20 - 03:41 AM "Bascam Lumsford , Bastard Lumsford" Probably because Bascom Lamar Lunsford prevented a fundraising concert in his area which was aimed at raising money to pay for Pete Seeger's defence during Mccathy's Unamerican Activities trials As much as I admire Lunsford's singin, I'm not sure I wouldn't have felt the same in those circumstances Al - blood/water and all that Jim |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Feb 20 - 03:21 AM Well I'm sorry you don't get on with each other. I don't see how either of you will be a penny richer from the disagreement. You both obviously care a lot about folksong, and your separate experiences have taken you to dissimilar conclusions. Its understandable. It happens a lot in life about all sorts of subjects. There's a certain poignancv in Jim's many postings a bout the proud culture of the Travellers and the oppression of that culture. When someone feels so deeply about a subject, you'd do well to respect it, Pseud - even if you wouldn't want them asphalting your drive, or delineating your view of folk music. You've been in this game long enough Jim , to know that there are all sorts of folk and some of the ones you disagree with still have an important contribution to make. I seem to remember one of the Seeger's caliing Bascam Lumsford , Bastard Lumsford |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 20 - 03:11 AM Missed a bit (thought I'd posted this) Jim 23 - What Will We Do when We'll Have No Money? (Roud 16879) Mary Delaney What will we do when we’ll have no money? All true lovers, what will we do then? Only hawk through the town for a hungry crown, And we’ll yodel it over again. What will I do if I’d marry a tinker? All true lovers, what will we do then? Only sell a tin can and walk on with me man, And we’ll yodel it over again. What will we do if we marry a soldier? All true lovers, what will we do then? Only handle his gun and we’ll fight for the fun, And we’ll yodel it over again. What will we do if we have a young daughter? All true lovers, what would we do then? Only take it in hand and walk on with me man, And we’ll yodel it over again. We have not found this song elsewhere, either in print or in a recording, but it bears such a striking resemblance to Mrs Elizabeth Cronin’s What would you Do if you Married a Soldier (Roud 3051) that it is probably a Traveller’s remake of the same song. Mary has a number of similar pieces: I’ve Buried Three Husbands Already and If Ever You Go to Kilkenny, etc., and, despite the fact that her speciality is the long, free ballad, she takes great pleasure in singing these made-up snatches and often is not able to finish them for laughing. On another occasion, Mary gave us this alternative to verse four; What will we do when we’ll have a young daughter, All true lovers, what will we do then, Bring it on on my back and walk on for the crack, And we’ll yodel it over again. Other CDs: Elizabeth Cronin (What Would You Do if You Married a Soldier) - Rounder 1742. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Feb 20 - 02:30 AM ""What will we do when we have no money" anyone have the provenance?" Pat and I recorded this from blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney in the 1970s, it is, as far as I know, the only version recorded from a source singer and all the revival versions came from that We were delighted when it became popular but believed that most of the later versions fell short of Mary's singing of it - one of the best versions I can recall is sung by Mudcat's own Martin Ryan - someone added a new verse to it along the way - Martin maybe Most of the singers I have heard treat it as a somewhat over-sentimentalised love song, but when Mary sang it, it came from the heart Mary's life would have made an excellent plot for a Dostoevsky novel Blind from birth with 18 children to be brought up on the road, a domestic incident caused her to lose half her younger children to 'care' (a situation she eventually remedied herself without official help) Far from being a slushy love song, Mary treats it a magnificent two-finger gesture to a very shitty life Because of Mary's almost total blindness, her status in her community was as a singer - she had a magnificent repertoire Before somebody someone describes Mary as an "embarrassing singer", it needs to be remembered that, when we recorded her she was a chronic asthmatic - the last time we say her (in Blackpool, Cork City), she was breathing from a cylinder - she died shortly after HERE |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: r.padgett Date: 25 Feb 20 - 12:37 AM So who should you be learning songs from? Certainly the old vinyl and of course the stars of the day who are in fact singer songwriters ~ I heard a version of Lynched/Lankum ~ "What will we do when we have no money" on Sunday ~ sung by a "young thruster" actually he is talented ~and I could join in with end parts of the song ~so I have looked at the on line version and found that the song is sing able without being exceptionally high in the verse ~ what a pity, a lost opportunity to "let your neighbour sing along" this then begs the question as to why folk singers are singing and ultimate motive ~ these will of course differ with each individual and god bless 'em! Above from my fb thread ~ also ~ "What will we do when we have no money" anyone have the provenance? Ray btw John Bowden and Victoria Bowden nee Shepherd ~ different to Jon Boden and Fay Hield please also note spellings carefully |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 24 Feb 20 - 01:37 PM I would expect a trained opera singer, or someomelike peter pears to finish on the same pitch as he she started, the point is that source singers were not trained opera singers they were people who sang purely for pleasure. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 24 Feb 20 - 08:20 AM it is not off key singing.Walter sings perfectly in tune, |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Feb 20 - 05:46 AM What John Bowdwen just said but louder "ps how do you know pseudo is a woman?" Because she was here before posting with a name and telling us that Clare farmers learned their songs from blues records She had he membership withdrawn eventually "As I remember A.L Lloyd used to reckon that traditional WEREN'T singing off key" Bert and others (I think Lomax too) had a theory that some singers deliberately sang off pitch - the Cantrometrics team called it 'unright singing' This didn't apply to Walter - he did what some of the most seasoned singers did when singing unaccompanied - they rose in pich during the course of a song Frank Hart did it, Harry Boardman did it, I do it - lots of singers do it It would be surprising if a singer with no experience in singing such as Walter didn't do it Making an issue of it, as has been done here is a way of somene who has made a seriesd of boo-boos from getting out of the hole she has dug herself into Not so long ago she said she wasn't talking about Walter's singing beu about one of his songs A nasty case of short term memory, I think Jim |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,big al whittle Date: 24 Feb 20 - 05:11 AM ps how do you know pseudo is a woman? Learn to patronise Jim! Repeat after me... 'You're most probably right m'dear! don't you worry your pretty little head about such matters. Folksong in England is a bit like long division, you couldn't really expect a sweet little thing like yourself to really understand.' |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Feb 20 - 04:43 AM Well its an interesting one the off key business. As I remember A.L Lloyd used to reckon that traditional WEREN'T singing off key. They were singing using a modal scale as the basis. I think he was thinking about Joseph Taylor. He also said that the extinct Lincolnshire bagpipes(with its incomplete scale) would have been accompaniment basis And I always thought that's what Bellamy and Carthy were driving at with those strange 'sliding' notes. i thought that is what they were referencing in their approach. I don't pretend to have any actual knowledge. I was always a jobbing musician (allegedly) and the audiences in pubs and working mens clubs that I sang and played for, wouldn't have countenanced any buggering about with with the hits of Jim Reeves. |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) Date: 24 Feb 20 - 04:32 AM Guys, guys! You're doing it again! Stop rising to Pseudonymous' bait! She likes the sound of her own voice and seems determined to disparage, under the pretence of "academic enquiry", the traditional singers most of us love and admire - which, as in other threads, will inevitably make some extremely knowledgeable contributors angry and frustrated, lead to insults and ultimately get the thread closed. Then she'll move on to another thread where she can repeat her ignorant prejudices, with the same result, and so on ad infinitum. Don't respond to her jibes - let the contributors who know what they're talking about discuss the topic sensibly, and take no notice of Pseudonymous' destructive negativity! |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: r.padgett Date: 24 Feb 20 - 04:24 AM Peter Bellamy was a highly respected trad folk singer, and his singing style is currently being followed by the likes of Jon Boden ~ well Jon is tall and can sing in high keys ~ but in my view singers like Walter who sang with his uncle ~ and other current singers sing in their usual extended natural voice so as to let others join in their songs and keep the interest in the storyline I have to say that I learnt songs largely from vinyl and from t' internet that is audio sources and the source singers keys and singing styles should be and in my case, I hope have been retained ~ sing in your "own voice" of course but have regard to your audience ~ Another niggle is that songs have history and the rush on occasions in sing arounds and folk clubs to get as many singers on as possible without a nod to the song its provenance and story is not always a good idea Ray |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Feb 20 - 03:31 AM "Does nobody have any on-topic knowledge to contribute to the thread?" Everybody but you, it seems Anonymous guests with a reputation like yours (including having been expelled), don't get to choose what's on and off topic, I'm afraif Let's press on eh - and please stop denigrating Dick and Walter - they are/were respected singers Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 24 Feb 20 - 03:11 AM Well, you took your own thread off topic. And with Sandman's stout defence of off-key singing, what better support could you ask for? Does nobody have any on-topic knowledge to contribute to the thread? |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Feb 20 - 02:37 AM "In fact I could do with some rich patrons." Me too - but I'd rather know who they were and where their money came from - you never know nowadays with all these drug barons and human traffickers "Anonymity can hide a thousand sins" as someone very wise once said (I think it was The Lone Ranger' Jim |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 24 Feb 20 - 02:15 AM here is another source singer singing unaccompanied harry cox https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozWhFUlg5YI |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 24 Feb 20 - 02:05 AM Whether Peters singing is better [despite lack of pitch drift is debatable] and amatter of taste or style prefernce, however Walter was the source and an inspiration for Peter |
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Subject: RE: Source singers and their songs From: The Sandman Date: 24 Feb 20 - 01:49 AM Walter was not a bad unaccompanied singer we are not talking about style. I am talking about technique, drifting a tone over the course of a 5 minute song. it is not the same as suddenly changing key during a song, he certainly would not be the first or the last unaccompanied singer to do so Walter sang clearly his diction was good and he held the tune. To describe someone as an embarrassingly bad singer ref;ects and tells us more about the critics lack of understanding of this genre of singing Stanron mentioned that he always sings with an instrumentto avoid this drift, however singing with an instrument may have that advantage but it has other disadavantages, it requires considerable skill to avoid forcing the vocals to follow the instrument, unaccompanied singing allows a much freer style of rythym, which can on occasions be desirable. I have witnessed a revival singer singing with a guitar and singing a quarter of a tone out with her guitar that in my opinion is far worse. here is peter bellamy singing the same song with concertina, the song does not drift in pitch, but even with a concertina a rythym is imposed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-ripmGRt8Q |
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