BS: proof of covid cause

Subject: BS: proof of covid cause
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:18 AM

Is there any proof of the origins of the virus, was it caused by using pangolins in medicine?or in food? if so should the Chinese banwhatever was the cause of the virus?

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:23 AM

Science News
from research organizations
Missing link in coronavirus jump from bats to humans could be pangolins, not snakes

Date:
    March 26, 2020
Source:
    American Chemical Society
Summary:
    As scientists scramble to learn more about the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, two recent studies of the virus' genome reached controversial conclusions: namely, that snakes are intermediate hosts of the new virus, and that a key coronavirus protein shares 'uncanny similarities' with an HIV-1 protein. Now, a study refutes both ideas and suggests that scaly, anteater-like animals called pangolins are the missing link for SARS-CoV-2 transmission between bats and humans.
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Pangolin (stock image). | Credit: © Charoenchai / stock.adobe.com
Pangolin (stock image).
Credit: © Charoenchai / Adobe Stock

As scientists scramble to learn more about the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, two recent studies of the virus' genome reached controversial conclusions: namely, that snakes are intermediate hosts of the new virus, and that a key coronavirus protein shares "uncanny similarities" with an HIV-1 protein. Now, a study in ACS' Journal of Proteome Research refutes both ideas and suggests that scaly, anteater-like animals called pangolins are the missing link for SARS-CoV-2 transmission between bats and humans.

Understanding where SARS-CoV-2 -- the virus that caused the COVID-19 pandemic -- came from and how it spreads is important for its control and treatment. Most experts agree that bats are a natural reservoir of SARS-CoV-2, but an intermediate host was needed for it to jump from bats to humans.

A recent study that analyzed the new virus' genome suggested snakes as this host, despite the fact that coronaviruses are only known to infect mammals and birds. Meanwhile, an unrelated study compared the sequence of the spike protein -- a key protein responsible for getting the virus into mammalian cells -- of the new coronavirus to that of HIV-1, noting unexpected similarities. Although the authors withdrew this preprint manuscript after scientific criticism, it spawned rumors and conspiracy theories that the new coronavirus could have been engineered in a lab. Yang Zhang and colleagues wanted to conduct a more careful and complete analysis of SARS-CoV-2 DNA and protein sequences to resolve these issues.

Compared to the previous studies, the researchers used larger data sets and newer, more accurate bioinformatics methods and databases to analyze the SARS-CoV-2 genome. They found that, in contrast to the claim that four regions of the spike protein were uniquely shared between SARS-CoV-2 and HIV-1, the four sequence segments could be found in other viruses, including bat coronavirus.

After uncovering an error in the analysis that suggested snakes as an intermediate host, the team searched DNA and protein sequences isolated from pangolin tissues for ones similar to SARS-CoV-2. The researchers identified protein sequences in sick animals' lungs that were 91% identical to the human virus' proteins. Moreover, the receptor binding domain of the spike protein from the pangolin coronavirus had only five amino acid differences from SARS-CoV-2, compared with 19 differences between the human and bat viral proteins. This evidence points to the pangolin as the most likely intermediate host for the new coronavirus, but additional intermediate hosts could be possible, the researchers say.

The authors acknowledge funding from the National Science Foundation, the National Institute of General Medical Sciences, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the Extreme Science and Engineering Discovery Environment.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:25 AM

I don't think there is any real proof as yet but the experts seem to be linking it to live animal markets in the Wuhan province. These things should be removed whether or not this proves to be true. I believe that is something the Chinese government were trying to do anyway but without success up to now.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:50 AM

I cannot disagree with you there, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:59 AM

Personally, I believe that this sort of speulation is pretty useless as things stand at the moment
Trump and his ilk are already using the like to sign off on another Cold War and are already referring to it as "The Chinese" or "The Wuhan Plague"
Let's burn all the dead we might have to before we begin to rake over the ashes -
China seems to have cracked the initial outbreak and it would be good if they were let share their success with the rest of us - they are already helping out, along with Cuba by sending medical teams to badly hit areas, let's not help Trump stop that, as he is trying to do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:24 AM

to know the cause of something is useful to prevent it happening again its called being radical getting to the root of the problem, not just treating symptoms. because trump is aa war monger and is using this for his own ends is not a reason for eliminating the root of the problem and being radical

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:17 AM

I do believe scientists should try to discover how this virus came about. All knowledge is precious, as long as it's scientifically proven and not idle conjecture by the Press.
It's become obvious that we humans should find out all we can about viruses, their mutant forms and their inherent threat to our existence.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:31 AM

Conjecture has postulated UK death rates of 1/2 million to less than 10,000. Science as yet has proven very little. Modelling provides partial answers but assumptions have to be made where hard data does nor exist. The cone of uncertainty widens the further into the future   the projections are made. Science is a path of discovery,not a time trial.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:05 AM

I have my suspicions that it came from nutty North Korea!!!

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:15 AM

"to know the cause of something is useful to prevent it happening again "
I'm aware of that Dick, but that's someone else's job
We have our own brand of nutter who will use speculation for something else, like this, for instance
"I have my suspicions that it came from nutty North Korea!!!"
Don't open that Pandora's Box please
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:48 AM

Jim, you misspelled Pangolin.

No, but seriously, I do hope it's not bats this time.

Someone tried to sell me a baby pangolin at the airport in Abidjan once but mom wouldn't let me buy it. It was cute as a button and being held on a stick it was happily climbing. Probably got made into soup.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 09:12 AM

Goodness Mrrzy, was that at Felix Houphouet Boigny airport? My husband is astonished - he's never seen anyone trying to sell animals there!

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 10:43 AM

Sandman has a good point. NIAID has profound science on its side.

While some are on point I shall drift into the dream of the great Orange one.
The future is where we will go hoping/learning not to repeat the past

We are going there rapidly.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: fat B****rd
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 01:24 PM

Just seen an advert on telly asking for donations to help save pangolins !

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 02:50 PM

Yes, at Houphouët-Boigny. I hadn't seen it before nor did I see it since. But it was soooo cute. Our basset hounds would not have accepted it, though.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:38 PM

There have been several stories documenting the virus jumping from a bat to a snake that ate it that ended up in a wildlife "wet market."

David Quammen wrote about the potential for this kind of thing happening in his 2012 book Spillover: Animal infections and the next human pandemic.

Here's a more recent story about it from National Public Radio. In that case it was an instance of a civet getting it from a bat.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 11:37 AM

Viruses mutate so fast we have to craft a new flu shot every year.   I think the best thing we humans can do is make for healthier living conditions and healthier habits among us people.

Rumors like these will just encourage some fool to go out and kill all the pangolins.
===================
At our online church service, a member now in Delaware mentioned that next door to his elderly father, a group of "adults who are still kids" are partying in defiance of quarantine. It's people like that we need to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:12 PM

here's a correlation, make of it what you will.

1) SARS-CoV & MERS (both coronaviruses) death rate higher, contagion lower. SARS-CoV2 (COVID-19) death rate lower, contagion higher. Relatively.

2) Statistical research into the evolution of infectious diseases (seen on TED.com) found that diseases that are more likely to kill its host, in counties that had infrastructure that thwarted the spread - evolved to be more benign, less deadly.

There are reports that think that the intermediate vector for COVID-19 was via pangolins.
Bats 7 degrees of difference, pangolins 3 degrees of difference (markers). Bats carry many viruses that don't seem to cause too many problems for them.
Early days, given there are more pressing problems in fighting the pandemic.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 04:17 PM

Long before the pandemic there was a modcat post here in BS that was all about Pangolins in China. It was a humanitarian post of the dreadful fate of the Pangolins which I had never heard of before.

I can not remember who that mudcatter was.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Martin
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:53 AM

Link of crossover from a particular species of bat to pangolin, thence to humans being looked at so it's a no brainer in answer to your question - yes, obviously!

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Martin
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:00 AM

Sorry The Sandman - my response just now was to your question!

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:11 AM

For those who don't look into the UK Politics thread, I've taken the liberty of passing on DtheG's link HERE
Everbody needs to be fully aware of what is happening - I hope Dave excuses the liberty
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:36 AM

Though it may seem otherwise for people who have lost family members, we (the world) has been pushing its luck. There have been cases of animal to human transmissions: Bird Flue, BSE which did not develop into human to human transmission, and outbreaks of infections with a poor prognosis being successfully contained: ebola and infections for which we have effective vaccines: seasonal flu. This time we had animal to human transmission which did develop to human to human of a novo virus which was not contained. Luckily only a minority of cases result in severe symptoms/death. It could have been far worse.

We should consider this our last warning. What humanity needs to do differently in the future is another question. I haven't a clue what the answer is, but if we don't, who knows what will come next?

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 05:47 AM

"What humanity needs to do differently in the future"
Amen to that
What we need to do is start taking responsibility for what we are doing to our planet rather than seeking our scapegoats (apt word) when things go wrong
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:26 AM

"It's all the fault of animals! If we killed them all and burned the bodies we wouldn't have all this disease and humans would live forever! But not my kitty."

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:34 AM

It's not the fault of animals, but the fault of those who keep live animals for food in unsanitary conditions.

I wondering how long in will be before we face a long-predicted super-bug pandemic as a result of livestock for human consumption being pumped up with antibiotics.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:02 AM

Killing the animals isn't a new theory. Calvin Martin in Keepers of the Game concludes that due to the easy and deadly transmission of smallpox through American Indian populations, many areas previously well-populated were almost empty by the time Europeans traveled through them - their diseases having moved ahead of them and wiping out millions. Martin posits his theory of the reaction of American Indians was to kill a lot of the previously respected animals. Until now I thought that was a fanciful theory about human reaction to a plague.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:12 PM

The long and the short of it is to manage to prohibit the very poor or the very ambitious (poachers) from hunting otherwise non-food wildlife and bush meat. Humans have had relationships over millennia with ungulates (deer, elk, moose, sheep, goats, etc.) but a lot of other animals are still unusual food and have diseases that can jump. (And hunters still have to be careful with deer, etc. with some parasites, disease, etc.) Tough to do in a world where "civilized" people profit by trying to sell the N-95 surgical masks and wildly inflated prices. Greed is everywhere. So is hunger.

Texas Tribune story.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 03:27 AM

it is not a question of finding scapegoats ,it is a question of finding the cause and not repeating the mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 03:53 AM

"So is hunger."
Often fogotten - even some of the poachers are driven by this
I am disgusted at the number of species being wiped our by the slaughter-for-prestige-and pleasure mob, but some people are still forced to kill to stay alive and that will remain the case until we have a fair world
The only trorphy I'd ever decorate my wall with is THE HEAD of an AMERICAN DENTIST
"it is not a question of finding scapegoats"
Unfortunately, that's what it will become if Trump and his poodles have his way - don't fall into their trap Dick
Until we know for sure, they are the only ones who benefit from speculation - it takes the pressure off them and helps them hide their cock-ups
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 03:55 AM

You're quite right Stilly, poverty and hunger cause people to kill and eat creatures we wouldn't even consider as food. Even my husband's people have at times killed and eaten rats and dogs around their compound and district. Forbidden of course by Islam, but when all one has is rice and a bit of 'sauce' made from tomatoes and onions, the craving for meat becomes overwhelming.
It's not right to criticise and condemn other populations for their strange and ill-advised habits without fully understanding their deprivation and needs.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 04:23 AM

there is enough food in this world and much is thrown away nobody should go hungry, the waste society the essence of capitalism, it is not a question of everyone being equal other than everyone having enough to eat

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 07:07 AM

I don't know if there is enough food to go round of not, Dick, but even if there is we still have a problem. It may not be in the right place at the right time. To distribute food, and water if it comes to that, we need true and non-commercial globalisation. While we have so much mistrust of other nations, stirred mainly by those with money and power, we will never achieve that. I am reminded of a song, from the 60s I think. Can't remember who sang it.

Half the world hates the other half
And half the world gets all the food
While the other half site down and quietly starves
'cause there's not enough love to go round

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 07:46 AM

I've said this before on here, but one of the main causes of poverty and deprivation in West Africa is the inherent corruption among the politicians and governments. There is actually enough food to go round in most of the countries in CEDEAO (ECOWAS). Their agricultural potential is generally good, and many have rich mineral and even oil resources, but any profits are hoovered up by those in charge.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 08:32 AM

"is the inherent corruption among the politicians and governments."
Sorry to disagree with someone who, I'm sure, knows better than me, while I agree it as a problem, I don;'t believe it is by any means the main one
The corrupt politicians, administrations and businesses ate allowed to thrive because it benefits the wealth portion of this planet, both politically and far too often financially
In many former colonies, Governments that have indicated they wanted a fairer deal for their people have been overthrown with Western help - Nkruma's Party being only one
Leaders like Lumumba and Hammarskjold were murdered because they were honest and dedicated to their people
Our shops are filled with good manufactured under slave-like conditions and oil has been the cause of more death and displacements of millions than any other conflicts
Refgees displaced by all these are now destined to become the main victims of this outbreak, not because of their proneness to the illness, but because of the fact that, while we can take steps to protect ourselves to some degree, the millions of refugees crammed into these appalling swamps of humanity have neither the means to resist nor the required medical facilities to stay alive
Without this dreadful virus, this mass of humanity would still be fighting for survival - I have seen nothing in our press of their present problems
The spivs and fly boys come fairly well down the list of culprits in my opinion
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 09:04 AM

I understand what you say Jim, and I agree. (I did say 'one' of the main causes though) The corrupt leaders are aided and abetted by even larger parasites in the form of the developed world powers and old colonially-minded economies.
Many Cote d'Ivoire politicians actually live for most of the time in France, in relative luxury. This reflects the country's colonial past, and we Europeans are the perpetrators of that.
I used to be deeply shocked and condemnatory of much that I saw during my earliest travels abroad (many countries, most of them undeveloped) but in time I began to understand the causes and the inherent needs driving people to unusual and shocking activities.
Human beings are the same the world over, with identical hopes, fears, requirements and instincts.
This virus may result in much reflection and upset many apple carts!

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 09:18 AM

"This virus may result in much reflection and upset many apple carts!"
I truly hope that is the case Sen
It will be a tragegy for us all if we don't learn from it and return to our old wars as if nothing had happened
It should be world-wide wake-p call
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 10:10 AM

for which we have effective vaccines

As Bill Gates says in the recent TED.com interview - the ebola vaccine was in preparation because of 911 and subsequent anthrax scares and the fear of bioterrorism. So a programme of discovering vaccines was implemented and the 4 most deadly viruses were chosen to concentrate on. The ebola vaccine was ready but human testing had not been properly implemented at the time so they decided to roll it out in Africa. But it was monitored closely.

a COVID-19 vaccine is not in that position. Though the effort to find one will stand us in good stead in future.

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 20 - 11:20 AM

The song I remembered was Sympathy.by Rare Bird and was from 1970 so I was nearly right with the 60s. Pity is still relevant 50 years later :-(

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 10:52 AM

Rhis makes it sound as if it was definitely bats:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/how-did-covid-19-begin-its-initial-origin-story-is-shaky/2020/04/02/1475d488-7521-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 11:45 AM

AS i said on another thread, one of the most contradictory facts to come out o this so far is that The British American Tobacco Company are now working on a cure for the virus
While I would not condemn this, I get a feeling there will be a rush to profit from this pandemic by predatory companies such as this particular poison-producer
HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Apr 20 - 05:32 PM

Well call me flippant but what more appropriate than to have British American Tobacco (BAT) looking into something that originated in bats?

Well bats are the smoking gun!




I'll get my face mask....................

Subject: RE: BS: proof of covid cause
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 11:10 AM

More info

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/science/new-york-coronavirus-cases-europe-genomes.html