Will folk clubs survive

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 09:15 AM

Whether clubs will survive or not will be answered soon enough I suppose. It will depend on the will of the attendees, organizers and singers. If the cooperation needed is exemplified by the posts on this thread, dire times are ahead. I doubt people who didn't support them in good times will be showing up to support them in bad. Good luck to all of you regardless the outcome.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 10:51 AM

I think one of the main reasons for the decline in folk club numbers is their cliquiness. Before I elaborate on this I must state that this is not necessarily a criticism, it is also part of what holds the club together. And it also certainly does not apply to every club. It was also ever thus right from the beginning, but the clique in the 60s were young enough and active enough to sustain the club and keep things evolving. Our main problem, like so many other interests that have become top-heavy with the aged, is that we didn't see the writing on the wall and didn't make enough provision for introducing new blood. Those clubs I have been in have the same old faces taking up any spots for performance and booking the same old faces as well. (There are exceptions and this is speaking very generally, not aimed at any one club). Some sessions can also be quite cliquey particularly Irish based ones, whereas singarounds more often than not welcome allcomers and everybody gets an equal chance to perform (well they do in my area).

However I must repeat, the decline in 'folk clubs' has more than been compensated for in the increase in other outlets for our music.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 11:08 AM

I don’t think the Clubs ever intended to become cliquey, but it happens by default sometimes, because the main participants get older and greyer, and through longer involvement they naturally become more proficient as performers. Welcoming as they might be to younger performers, newcomers and those just startIng out tend to then feel intimidated by the more experienced and adept performers already there.
If I was twenty again and walked into a club or indeed a session, where everyone seemed to be quite accomplished and clearly older than my grandparents are, I’d probably think twice before going there again. It’s easy to see why open mic sessions are popular with younger performers, but it would be sad if we lost the Clubs and only saw the rather impersonal and unsupportive open mics survive.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 11:13 AM

"I think one of the main reasons for the decline in folk club numbers is their cliquiness. "
These are feeble excuses - their decline was documented well enough to be correct in magazines like Folk Review yet nobody seems to want to go near the reasons given - I wonder why
Your club may ahve been cliquey - none of those I attended where

THre are now more excuses to explain away the loss of folk clubs that there are to paper over the flaws in the theory that crap hacks wrote our folk songs - I really didn't see that bus c.... argh...!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 01:10 PM

"their decline was documented well enough to be correct in magazines like Folk Review yet nobody seems to want to go near the reasons given"

- "I wonder why
Your club may ahve been cliquey - none of those I attended where"


Might be a good idea to refresh the memory of those who may have read the Folk Review articles referred to above and/or tell the younger ones what reasons for the decline were cited, please Jim

I have to agree with Steve ~ clubs are and have always been cliquey ~ this is one of the main reasons in my view why they fail ~ booking policy and egos are other reasons ~Folk clubs.

Concert clubs and mixed sessions (song and music) are different animals in my view and owe success/ failure to different factors entirely ~ but not always!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM

"Might be a good idea to refresh the memory of those who may have read the Folk Review articles referred to above and/or tell the younger ones what reasons for the decline were cited, please Jim"
I have done over and over again - here and elsewhere - seems little point to do so again if nobody read it the first - second - third.... time around
Some clubs weer cliquey by not by any means the majority of them Steve can speak fro his own
I veisted about for clubs a week at one stage - a mixture of pleasure and research
The singers was largely a 'concert club' - most I knew weer
The 'anyody who turnd up' ones were very much latecomers on the scene
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 01:53 PM

Maybe the folk clubs could use Village Halls, as lots of the old venues will undoubtedly have succumbed to the loss of revenue, owing to Covid-19.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 02:22 PM

"refresh the memory "
A quick try again - Simon Reeve - the bast travel broadcaster ever beckons
The reason most I knew walked away was turning up at Clubs nd not hearing a folk song all night
That ct down my number of visits- first by experience, then later, playing safe and not preparing to take a chance any more
G'night all - be careful out there
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM

Maybe the folk clubs could use Village Halls, as lots of the old venues will undoubtedly have succumbed to the loss of revenue, owing to Covid-19.

If your village still has one. The Tories have done their best to destroy spaces open to the whole community. The folk scene can't depend on any one kind of venue exclusively.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 03:25 PM

Quite, Jack, which is one good reason why we diversify, pubs, village halls, museums, churches, shopping centres, schools, community gardens, outdoor stages, marquees when we can afford them, boats such as keels, sloops, schooners, fishing vessels, trains, car parks, restaurants etc., etc.. . .

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 03:26 PM

Oops, missed out art galleries.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 05:09 PM

...and I could add to Steve's list: farmer's market, microbrewery, Muslim and Jewish community events, charity marathon, student socials, house parties, local history meetings...

Dunno how people interested in folk music find the time to go to folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 03:07 AM

I think perhaps we should firstly consider the circumstances historically as to why the folk clubs of the 1960/70 actually "took off" and to the extent they did ~ weekly folk clubs and in some cases a number on the same night in the same catchment area

People were still coming out of the 1945 War and finding time to enjoy themselves, they were questioning how their world was and what restrictions in society were there ~ free speech and money to buy even on Hire purchase

So will Covid 19 leave UK society in a different place than before?

Well who knows and this thread is about that!

As Steve Gardham says other venues are currently (before Covid19) looking at the use of other venues as an alternative to pubs and as well as!!

Folk clubs can only survive where there is a consensus as what the aims are and that all ppl are happy with that ~or the dissentients will no doubt either suck it or beggar off elsewhere

I do feel a number of initiatives are in place ~ some EFDSS based but local initiatives could and should be sought out ~ Soundpost at Dungworth is one such project and serves to employ and bring ppl together

New "stars" and gods are there, maybe not as clever as Ewan MacColl and of course we have lost a number of the Revivalist singers like Peter Bellamy and singer songwriters like Keith Marsden,

but there are stars here now and developing all the time ~ what goes round comes round and it is no good simply saying we are ignoring the traditional songs and these are the only songs that should be sung ~

it never ever was during the 1960/70s and entertainment and beer were also part and parcel of what folk clubs were ~ as well as the entertainers ~ Billy Connolly, Mike Harding, Jasper Carrot as well as Tony Rose, Dave Burland who sung and kept alive the traditional songs

Yes many new folk singers do look to the tradition for material to sing and arrange musical accompaniments and long may it be so

Traditional song and music will continue to be sung for as long as people see the historical and/ or artistic value in them and can relate to the feelings expressed and context within them, many of those relating to humanity itself

Ray

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 04:14 AM

Folk clubs started as an antidote to entertainment that they had no control over and had a wish to flex their own musles and make their own - at first it was letting off steam; later, and in growing numbers it developed into something more lasting
People began to deepen their interest in enough numbrs that some higher education instititutes took it up - Leeds, Shaffield, Aaberdeen....
It came into its own while at the same time, remained an entertainment for the majority
That is what is happening now in Ireland - in Galway, In Limerick and (I think) in Cork - there are now 'folk areas developing in places like West Clare, Cork and Galway, with a history in the Traditional Arts
Ireland now has a centre of excellence and a permanent resource for information in the Irish Traditional Music - a foundation to fall back on and a permanent reminder of what traditional music is
When a couple of enthusiastic non professionals in Wexford decided to draw attention to Child Ballads they approached The National Library of Ireland, which gave it its full support
Up to the Time The Celtic Tiger had its teeth drawn by the banks, applying for a grant from the Arts Council of Ireland was punching on an open door - I know that from personal experience
If a charlatan hadn't jumped the gun years ago, Traditional music would have a representative in politics
By taking itself seriusly, Irish traditional music has guaranteed itself a several generation future (at least)

What seems to have happened in the UK is that those who were in at the beginning have aged and have been disillusioned by a hostile takeover of the clubs have departed and have yet to be replaced   
Unless a new crowd on all levels (not as wannabe stars) England's Voice of the People will disappear into cupboards, display cases and bookshelves and we would have allowed it to happen (I understand the pipe museum in Alnwich isn't there any more - is that right ?)
This ducking and diving really is getting nowhere
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 05:14 AM

Jim
    No trace of a pipe museum in Alnwick Nortumberland,but there is a
bagpipe collection in Morpeth (Morpeth Chantry Bagpipe Museum)not a million miles away.
See Here
                  
https://museumsnorthumberland.org.uk/our-collections/musical-intruments/

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 05:27 AM

Thanks - that's a bit of a relief
Ther use to be one at Alnwick Castle
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

The have a poison garden at Alnwick castle. Perhaps they decided that 2 attractions dedicated to unusual ways of harming people was too much :-)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 05:48 AM

The only ducking and diving I see is the old man in exile.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 06:02 AM

there are stars here now and developing all the time ~ what goes round comes round

Not quite in the same way. Becoming a star on social media is a very different process than the old process mediated by agents, promoters and folk club committees - the sort of help a rising YouTube star might need is a search engine optimizer. And for a few months at least, social media will have a monopoly on reputation building.

Folk clubs were invented 60-odd years ago to increase the public visibility of folk music and its performers. Social media make that function totally irrelevant. They had very little to offer a rising star before the pandemic and absolutely nothing from now on.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 06:53 AM

"The only ducking and diving I see is the old man in exile.
Thanks for trying to reduce this to a personal and abusive level
I trust others have more sense - let's see
Ageism and a display of 'Little Brit' at your age - tsk, tsk
You really should know better
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

Incidentally
Folk clubs wen't "invented" for anything specific - they evolved spontaneously - nobody is sure where
They seemed to be the natural progression of something that was already beginning to happen
MacColl's crowd wtth the than exiled Alan Lomax started a couple of concerts at The Theatre Royal in East London - Ewan always claimed that was the first but that has always been disputed
The main objective was to air the music rather than display platforms for people who had already carved their names elsewhere
Different aprts of the country reacted differently
The Folk Boom introduced a scramble for the top
Mike Brocken's extremely flawed history covered that period reasonably accurately

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 08:23 AM

"They had very little to offer a rising star"

Live music venues of any kind will help artists to gain experience and develop their skills and stage craft in front of actual audiences.

Of course, you might wish to argue that's no longer important. However, those who wish to perform online on a more permanent basis will need to do so in a professional way. People will soon tire of amateurish videos broadcast from musicians' bedrooms.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM

In the Shanty Crew we cut our teeth performing in the open air, whatever the weather, and apart from maritime festivals, we did far more gigs in the community than in folk clubs. So there are no limits to venues where folk can be performed and appreciated.

But..... my introduction to folk was through folk clubs, and was inspired by people who were booked and good floor performers. Outside shanties and music hall I honed my craft at singerounds, and as a whistle player, sessions.

I have been to clubs, particular singaround clubs, that are so insular this inevitably led to their decline. But as someone who used to enjoy singing and playing, I still enjoyed going there.

I am at the age now that I have no interest in carving a career in folk/music hall, and I don't really have time to do anything with my folders, box files, and bookshelves and filing cabinet drawers full of folk and music hall material (sometimes I wonder if, when I finally pop my clogs, it will all end up in a recycling bin). I definitely have no aspiration to ever organise anything again.

Anyway, on a personal level, folk clubs inspired me to be involved in folk song/music and music hall, whereas folk music in the community would have been more of a passing "That's nice/interesting, and move on".

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM

Needs writing in stone SPB-C
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 03:30 PM

i enjoy performing, whether it be in folk clubs, community centres,or busking, last friday i sat in avery quiet bantry square and played tunes for 40 minutes just to cheer people up. when i am feeling ok i enjoy sitting at home and playing as well

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 04:45 PM

Hi SPB, likewise I have a room full of books and a loft full of folders, thankfully mostly reasonably catalogued and sorted. I know which bits are scarce and which are unique and the local material will go into our local folk archive and any scarce stuff like my broadside collection and sheet music will go to EFDSS. Very few of the books are particularly rare and the majority will probably go to auction or charity. Whenever I have a cull I sell off anything interesting and the rest goes to charity or mates. What I am getting at is if you have any rare print or manuscript or if you have done any personal research or taken on someone else's archive this needs to be separated off and offered to either an institution or another archive. Far too much important material gets binned. I have possession of material that belonged to Nigel Hudleston, the folk song collector, and some of Malcolm's folk material and writings. What I did with some of Malcolm's books etc is I passed them on to younger researchers which is one good way to preserve them.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:11 AM

yes.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:16 AM

Steve
I sincerely hope things ahve changed radically at Cecil Sharp House
During my time in \london they were turning away major collections such as that of Leslie Shepherd (Broadsised and books) because there was simply no room - much of what they had was crammed into cupboards, much unexamined, never mind catalogued
We spent years searching for somewhere to leave our large collection and Library and totally failed in the UK - we couldn't give our sound archive away
We tried the Working Man's Library in Salford (who have dedicated part of their space to MacColl), but they neither have the staff or funding
WE didn't try Newcastle in vew of hahat happened to other University-based folk Departments - I can't remember whether it was Sheffield or Leeds whose newly appointed head peremptorily closed down her long running folk department, describing them as "tree-huggers)
We also suggested there might be a club willing to take our digitised sound archive as a resource for its members
One club refused our of hand, another could find no-one prepared to bell the cat
In the end we were lucky to ask Limerick Uni. World Music Centre who has welcomed the Library and collection and has suggested that they might be able to put sore recordings on line and use it to expand their already established Traveller section - there was talk of a 'Carroll/Mackenzie Library - I'm not sure I want that to happen

As far as I'm concerned,, the impossibility of bequeathing folk material is as much a sign of the run-down state of the folk scene as are the clubs
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 04:51 AM

As far as I'm concerned,, the impossibility of bequeathing folk material is as much a sign of the run-down state of the folk scene as are the clubs.quote.
well the folk club scene has always had a broad spectrum ,some of those people are not and never have been interested in tradtional materia, i think that proprtion of clubs or people has increased not interested intrad by about 40 per cent over the last 50 years. my impression based on gigging in folk clubs over the last 46 years is that the clubs or more importantly orgnisers of clubs, is that it is now about 65percent to 35percent, not interested in trad material 35 percent interested, that is on the ENGLISH folk club scene, i think that agents by their nature push the more commercial aspects of folk music, which is by its nature of commercialism, takes us away from the roots of the music which is tradtional folk music
46 years ago my impression of the uk folk club scene was 65percent interested in the roots of the music 35 percent not, so commercialism and folk club and folk festival orgnisers have altered the proprtion.
the mantra ...........      
bum on seats takes us away from the roots of the music and agents and organisers by promoting that aspect are partly responsible.
the uk folk scene particularly the english part is being driven by the forces of commercialism away from its roots

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 04:55 AM

the aspect of the uk folk revival which remains closest to its roots is dance particularly morris dance imo

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 05:04 AM

so they may survive how much folk music will be played and how much popmusic or popsongs played with acoustic instrumentsand how much contemporarysongs of angst and personal relationships with a vaguely folk sound is open to conjecture ,i am not optimistic.
my memories of good nights where people particpated in chorus songs and listened to old story ballads, i think commercialism of the music will mean these aspects will diminish, very sad,i fear it will become more them and us, more like popmusic, the stars and the passive consumer. i am glad that i was there in the thick of it when i heard good tradtional singers and the majority of folk people appreciated it

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 05:09 AM

The basis of the scene was the tradition - not purist, but it was the foundation the scene was built on
When that was abandoned the scene headed for collapse
Our archive encompasses far for that the tradition - workshops be revivalists, workshops on song-making, loads if new songs in traditional style... what a folk archive needs to be
Still can't find a home for it in Britain - Wonder how Walter Pardon with take to his new home in Ireland - he'll certainly be far more appreciated than he has been back home lately
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 01:51 PM

Folk music exists regardless of the arena it is heard in.

Its interesting of course that those used to function rooms in pubs are now seeing Youtube and social media as an outlet as if it's something new.

Welcome to the folk music platform that has been enjoyed for a number of years now by younger performers and listeners. Vastly far more of them judging by "followers" than half a dozen pensioners in a circle claiming to be the town's only "folk music outlet."

The question of whether folk clubs survive is being asked by those who see pubs as their social outlet. Folk music is surviving and evolving nicely where those who will carry it on congregate. On line, festivals and sit down concerts.

I'm misty eyed and nostalgic for the upstairs rooms with candles in wine bottles every bit as much as the next person. But survival of the genre is a different discussion to survival of the platform. I'm excited by the young acts we book at our concert style club, spend time listening on Youtube to wonderful new interpretations of traditional ballads by young people that have never had a bloke with trousers up to Jim's tits telling them they are doing it wrong. It's brilliant and exciting.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 02:04 PM

Too much common sense there, remember this is Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 02:26 PM

With respect, Dick, you are only seeing folk clubs and Paying venues. There is a whole grass-roots scene out there and young people are definitely involved. They are largely locally based like ours. Generally speaking our performers perform free for our own events but charge a fee for other organisations and out of area gigs.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 02:56 PM

Folk song venues which are designated as such were there to drw people in to listen to folk songs - old and new
Play them down (as has become the thing here - a change from recent finials that there was anything worng with the club scene0 and you lose your magnetic centre
hat anybody would want to ageist name calling is beyond my comprehension other than to realise that the insulted is lacking in several things, including an answer and good manners and certainly "common sense"
Why foul up a discussion with this garbage fellers ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 02:57 PM

"I'm excited by the young acts we book at our concert style club, spend time listening on Youtube to wonderful new interpretations of traditional ballads by young people "
Please name some of them. I'd love to be excited by them too.

Subject: RE:
From: JHW
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:17 PM

Will folk clubs survive? How are we going to sing with a facemask on?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Tootler
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:45 PM

That's of there's face masks available to put on when not even medics can all get them.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:50 PM

Granny's Attic, Cohen in particular. The Young Uns. Alice Jones, Sam Martyn. Come on ,folks, let's make up a good list.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 03:54 PM

Well said Some Bloke and Steve. My involvement with folk music only occasionally involves going to a folk club

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Apr 20 - 04:14 PM

Live music venues of any kind will help artists to gain experience and develop their skills and stage craft in front of actual audiences.

Of course, you might wish to argue that's no longer important. However, those who wish to perform online on a more permanent basis will need to do so in a professional way. People will soon tire of amateurish videos broadcast from musicians' bedrooms.

Conversely, doing a good video in a domestic setting is a skill you don't automatically learn from performing on stage - it takes a different attitude to create an involving performance cold with no audience, get the camera angles right, and script your act to have just the right amount of talk with the right attitude. There are lots of videos by people with folk club stage experience who take too long to get on with it, perpetrate excessive self-deprecation and give you a screenful of boobs and boogers from belly level.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:51 AM

Ah folk music via Youtube and social media, hmmmmmm, I somehow doubt it. As Jim Carroll has been trying to put across what "folk music" is it would appear that he is met with arguments and points of view of those who are being deliberately obtuse.

Now it would appear the way forward is predicated upon owning a laptop, Tablet, I-pad, Smart-phone, or whatever. Now that means that I do not have to trawl through the absolute mountain of absolutely horrendous renditions of songs and tunes that you can find on Youtube, etc, because let's face it you are listening to a recording and if you are listening to a recording you might as well listen to the "original" [Example: If you can listen to Paul Brady sing and play "Arthur MacBride" why on earth would you ever want to listen to Joe Bloggs halting and hesitant rendition of the same song].

If I go to a "folk club" I do rather naively expect to hear folk songs, however it has been a long, long time since that was the case and even in "folk sessions" now we get people ridiculing Folk music as "that miserable, boring stuff" and declaring they "If people sing it it is "folk"" and yet another evening, afternoon is lost to 60s and 70s "pop" songs that are basically "busked" because those playing and those joining in can only remember one-an-a-half verses and the chorus. This weakness they try to cover by stringing songs together as a medley. But here modern technology comes to their aid as you see the ranks of tablets, I-pads and phones come out and these "performers" can now deliver a complete song that they cannot be arsed to actually learn by reading through the lyrics, with appropriate stops to scroll down the page of their "absolutely essential, can't play without it device".

Folk Clubs will survive for those who want to listen to "folk music", hopefully those who ruined it will be enticed from the scene by concentrating of churning out their dross in the privacy of their own homes to throw out there to be discovered and forgotten on Youtube, Facebook, etc.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:31 AM

Folk music has moved into the 21st century very well. It's about time some people did. Folk clubs were invariably in pubs in the UK. Any idea how many pubs were open 60 years ago and now many there are now? People have found other ways to socialise and folk music has found other ways to flourish.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:59 AM

Observer seems to sum up pretty much what I believe to be the truth and the problem
Our folk music was, among many other things, an enjoyable exercise in social intercourse, a way of coming together, not just to listen and to perform a music we had found (or had been given by those who found it for us) but to share it, pass it on and give it a future
We did that by talking about it, arguing its finer points and taking in what each other had to say, and (with a few notable exceptions) to remain respectful of each other while we did so
THat seems to have one with the clubs - I have never encountered such waves of bitter contempt from people I though I shared a love with as I ahve here
I have witnessed ageism, suggestions that, as I no longer live in Britain what I have to say about a music I have devoted my life to is no longer valid, dishonest accusations of being a racist by someone who refuses to qualify what I am being accused of....
Not so long ago I was accused of personally insulting people because I criticise the action (or the inaction) of EFDSS and saying what I thought about singers performances.... a list of ten so called personal insults someone who I once respacted put up
Like any art form, folk song should thrive on critical analysis - unfortunately Alex Campbell's "Good enough for folk song" seems to have won the day

Mve from folk clun to the impersonality and irregularity of festivals, concerts and what the media hashed up was bad enough - but I-pods COME ON
Over the last few weeks I and many millions of others have been screaming up the wall because we have been deprived of human contact - now there is a gleeful rush to sentence our music to a life (if that's what you dare call it) of social isolation
I wonder how many would be as happy to see live theatre, football and all other sports and pleasures we have always enjoyed suddenly shrink in size to fit it onto a small, plastic screen
Maybe there is a mjority for that, I'm rapidly beginning to cease to understand what's happening to our once vital enjoyable world
Jim Carroll




The

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:06 AM

"Folk music has moved into the 21st century very well."
Yup dave - bring on global warming, an increasing poverty gap and another minute on the doomsday clock
Our folk songs started to disappear when people started to say "I don't know what "folk" means any more and when or clubs reduced from the sever thousand they one numbered to only low hundreds they have become
What exactly do YOU mean by "folk song" Dave ?
As far as I can see from your arguments, it's no longer 'The Voice of the People' that gave the term its definition
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:29 AM

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:31 AM

Folk music has moved into the 21st century very well. It's about time some people did. Folk clubs were invariably in pubs in the UK. Any idea how many pubs were open 60 years ago and now many there are now? People have found other ways to socialise and folk music has found other ways to flourish.
if you think internet communication is socialising, ha ha,that is a very good joke,
if you think that open mics [where no one is listening to other performers is the appropriate form of socialising for this music] youare a smaller brained gnome than i have thought, open mics and people not bothering to listen to others are disrespectful ,the music becomes wallpaper music. i take on board some of steves other points and hope that which he says is not just confined to yorkshire

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:41 AM

I will just repeat in simpler terms for those who seemed to read a number of things into my earlier post that were not there.

Pubs and folk clubs have vastly reduced in number.
People have found alternatives to pubs and folk clubs.
Folk music has survived.

Which, if any, of those statements is untrue?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:56 AM

Please don't reduce this further by partonising me Dave - I will only construe it as being defensive
Venues have always been the problem, as has our ability to overcome it
You have ignored the real problem, as has everybody else - that a cloud of distortion and misinformation has been deliberately wrapped around the term "folk" in order to make it a cultural catch-all for anything people cant think of another name for but would like to perform publicly - that has become a hostile take-over and has edged real folk song off the satge many of us worked bloody hard to create
Dedicated people walked away from the scene because it stopped providing what they were looking for
The same would have happened if football grounds had begun to put on ice hockey or The Royal Opera House had begun to specialise in Big Ballads
We had our choice of what we listened to surgically removed gradually

It strikes me that if you spent as much time actually discussing the subject as you did defending the indefensible (somewhat insultingly) we'de get much furhter with these discussions and would have remained friends - I miss that feeling from you as much as I miss not being able to go out for a friendly pint
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:01 AM

So, which, if any of the statements are untrue?

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