Will folk clubs survive

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:21 AM

Observer, you have my utter sympathy. I don't know where you live but I have only rarely experienced what you describe. Whatever it is you are experiencing there are many places where 'The Voice of the People' can be heard and participated in. I cannot believe that Yorkshire, such a vast area, is some sort of mecca. What I can believe is that the metropolis might cause problems of the sort that Obs describes. I imagine lots of places where you can get the 'anything goes' scenario and a few dedicated folk clubs packed with the same old faces, but I could be totally wrong.

Jim, there has been no hostile takeover, though I concede that it could appear that way to some people. What has happened is that, as existing acoustic formats, people wanting to perform their own brand of music in a friendly amateur environment have been attracted to it. But this has also been a medium for introducing new people to our music. As long as our music still dominates, and in my experience it does, I don't see a problem.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:26 AM

"So, which, if any of the statements are untrue?"
Yo're dong it aagainfd Dave
You are ignoring everything I have said and demanding answers
You are even ignoring tha fact that I have just responded to one of our points about premises
The music id dying - it isn't surviving - how ban it be when people don't know what folk is any more
The "lrenative's" you are claiming aren't for folk song - I have been detecting an open hostility towards that for some time now - even on this forum - "outt of date, finger in ear, purist boring, not what people want..." are a few of the new-age folk phrases common now
Please respond to me arguments and stop pretending I haven't made them
nd stop

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:50 AM

An obvious advantage of social media over a folk club is that while duff performances do exist, you can leave them with a tap of your finger. Anyone who's ever been to folk club will remember moments when you wished you could minimize the pub into an icon in a corner of the sky and open a different one. (Particularly when some grumpy old fool started ranting at you about how it's never been the same since Ewan MacColl's time - not all physical socialization is fun).

People who have got used to exercising their own discernment minute by minute about what they're listening to won't welcome being asked to sit down and just accept whatever they're offered for a whole evening. Folk clubs started at a time when the alternative was a night in with the BBC Home Service. YouTube offers rather tougher competition.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 05:10 AM

I've been sampling some online stuff mainly from the site Peggy Seeger instigated
With the best will in the world it hardly begins to come anywhere near replacing the clubs -
At presnt it has a 'wartime' feel, which is understandable - knees-up in the air-raid shelters
It lacks two essetnial ingredients, quality and product control
If I'd been faced with songs I didn't want to listen to, as I was occasionally at the clubs, I'd go down to the bar with my mates and talk - and still take the memory of a pleasant evening home with me
If we discussed the music we'd come to listen to, we'd probably go home knowing bit more - all aprt of the learning curve
I find the idea of 'siting and tapping my fingers' totally abhorrent - I's rather work i the garden and I detest that
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 06:36 AM

Could it be Jim that your definitions of folk music needs re-adjusting rather than the state of reality.

I say this with all respect to your life's work and achievements.

I've had no dealings with Cecil Sharp House and frankly they'v never displayed any interest in my activities, despite one or two tentative approaches.

Doubtless the folks in Cecil Sharp house have difficulties of their own - difficult choices, inadequate resources , etc.

The one thing that's nice is that nowadays we all have access to the great filing system in the sky called cyberspace. The ages can decide on the value, or worthlessness of our works.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 07:23 AM

Please respond to me arguments

I've said before, Jim. I am not arguing with you. There is no point as our views are different and neither of us are likely to change. Nor am I demanding anything. I just made three simple points. If you wish to dispute them, feel free. If you don't, that's fine too.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 07:45 AM

You never have dave
I'm not out to change anybody's mind - I never haev eb, they'll do that for themselves
I'm here to discuss and compare ideas so I we can add to each others perspectives
I've more than answered your points - you have chosen to respond to nothing, which saddens me

"Could it be Jim that your definitions of folk music needs re-adjusting rather than the state of reality."
Not really Al - unlss someone comes on a view that can be agreed by all
I certainly have not intention of the "I don't know what folk song ois any more" school of thinking
Sixtry years of songing collecting and reading makes it far too late for that
If you have an alternative definition I'd be happy to consider it - nobody else has offered one, but there's a first time for everything
Britten once said "You should try everything once except incest and Morris Dancing" - I've always thought that a good idea
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 07:52 AM

I never have what, Jim?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 07:54 AM

i am in agrreement with jim generally , i would say that i include blues as folk music american folk music. however this sort of trolling coming from someone who appears to be perenially insulting.,takes the biscuit. our old codger jack campin, an insulting old bollocks if ever i met one, ....quote jack campin(Particularly when some grumpy old fool started ranting at you about how it's never been the same since Ewan MacColl's time - not all physical socialization is fun)
jack, if you are from scotland or england it is spelled/spelt socialisation not socialization, or are you an american trojan horse

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:09 AM

Pubs and folk clubs have vastly reduced in number.
People have found alternatives to pubs and folk clubs.
Folk music has survived.

Which, if any, of those statements is untrue? quote dave the gnome
      what a simplistic post , people have found alternatives that does not mean those alternatives are any better in fact open mics are worse , because they encourage wallpaper music, where no one or very very few is/are listening.
folk music has survived ,that does not mean it is flourishing or close to the mainstream as it is in ireland
if i go toa jazz club i expect jazz notopera, if i go to the opera i expect opera not cliff richard. i know what folk music is and when i go to folk clubs or folk concerts i do not want to hear martin carthy singing an opera by verdi or singing rock around the cock

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:17 AM

on many occasions over the last few years, when i have done gigs in folk clubs in the uk, i have had people come up to me and say how refreshing to hear an evening of traditional songs, they then say we dont hear them very much these days

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:19 AM

"I never have what, Jim?"
For crying out loud Dave
You never have offered an argument
Over and out
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:30 AM

Quite, Jim. As I said, I am not arguing with you.

Dick - what a simplistic post

Exactly. That was the idea. Folk music has survived and there are alternatives to pubs and folk clubs. I agree that it does not mean they are better or worse. Just different. It comes back to the opening question - Will folk clubs survive? I don't think that matters as much as will folk music survive. Seeing as it has already survived for millennia. I don't see why not.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 08:50 AM

if you are from scotland or england it is spelled/spelt socialisation not socialization, or are you an american trojan horse

If we're sinking to that level - I learned to spell in New Zealand, where schools taught the spellings used by the OED. Which prefers "-ize", and for that word it gives as its first citation a quote from William Morris in the 1880s - he spelt it the New Zealand way.

The OED's earliest cite for "bugger off" is from Joyce's "Ulysses" in 1922.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 09:20 AM

BTW Dick, I would be very interested to hear Martin Carthy sing "Rock around the cock" :-)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 09:37 AM

Dick wrote:-
jack, if you are from scotland or england it is spelled/spelt socialisation not socialization, or are you an american trojan horse

Come on, Dick, you are nit-picking! We all know what Jack meant whether he used an 's' or a 'z'..... unless you have an obsession with accuracy, in which case you need to make an orthographical check of the second line of the post that my quotation was taken from.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Vic Smith
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 09:55 AM

Dave wrote:-
BTW Dick, I would be very interested to hear Martin Carthy sing "Rock around the cock" :-)

More pot calling the kettle black at 14 Apr 20 - 05:04 AM where we read particpated. Nobody objected to this because it was obvious what he meant.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 09:57 AM

vic smith. The man in the wilderness
Asked me,
How many strawberries
Grew in the sea?

I answered him
As I thought good,
As many as red herrings
Grew in the wood.
Will folk clubs survive? I don't think that matters as much as will folk music survive.quote d the g.
so you dont think it matters if folk music is treated as wall paper music[ re open mics] so it doesnt matter how it is treated? you appear from the posts you make to wish to drag us into the 21st century amd make people put up with the music being disrespectfully. well
The OED's earliest cite for "bugger off" is from Joyce's "Ulysses" in 1922.perhaps you would oblige

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 10:21 AM

some interesting thoughts Sandman.

A lot of artisrs I knew found it difficult to work their magic outside of folk clubs, which generally have polite attentive audiences.They are or can be very nice indulgent audiences.

(Which is why , if you go and see a folk artist you often get lumbered with twenty minute support act supplied by the organisers kids - a sqeaky clean pubescent in training for Britain's Got Talent.)

On the whole though I'm not sure the bathing in milk and honey has really been to the advantage of folk music. Certainly none of the great folksongs have such effete origins.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 11:09 AM

ok al, if we played in working mens clubs. i would probably have to sing delilah and tie the yellow ribbon.
i could have taken that direction, and with a half decent voice had material success but i did not fancy it,i could have made more money, so i am proud to be effete, i am proud to sing songs i like, i am proud to show respect for my material. back in 1968 this music was alternative, it still is an alternative to the consumer passive middle of the road pap. I AM PROUD TO SING TRADTIONAL MATERIAL, GOD BLESS THE EFFETE.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 11:17 AM

so you dont think it matters if folk music is treated as wall paper music

No, Dick. I said nothing like that. I said, as you quoted, that folk clubs do not matter as much as folk music. As I said to Jim, I am not going to argue as there is no point. But I am going to correct misrepresentation of what I said when I see it.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 11:45 AM

"folk clubs do not matter as much as folk music. As I said to Jim, I am not going to argue as"
That's a profound statment and a cop-out all in one posting
You may quote me on that - I'll certainly quote you having said it
Its a rversal from saying there is nothing wrong with the club scene, I suppose
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 12:54 PM

i think the Gnome has tbeen too busy playing with his fishing rod at the bottom of the garden, definitely not been paying attention, but if folk clubs do not matter as much asfolk music logically you are saying that venues that have people listening to the words do not matter as much as the music, so you areiun effect saying that as long as the music is being played, it does not matter where.
so logically you are saying it does not matter where the music is played.   
if it does not matter where the music is being played, as long as it is being played, then it means that it can belayed in unsuitableplaces such as open mics, or working mens clubs
Dave have you tried singing the buffalo skinners or thomas the rhymer in a working mens club,or at open mics if the venue is not suitable a proportion of the fomusic material is not sung.
even your hero anthony john clarke, whois avery competent performer would not hack it in a working mens club, and probably not want to sing at an open mic

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 12:59 PM

I repeat. I am not arguing with you, Jim. It is pointless. I disagree with you and you with me on this subject. We knew this year's ago. Using the same tired old arguments is just flogging the proverbial dead horse.

To make my position clear though I am happy to restate it

The clubs I attend are fine. Current crisis aside of course
I only have the word of other people on here that theirs are fine too
There are alternatives to Folk clubs both live and online
Folk music itself will survive as it always has and that is the most important thing for me.

Nothing to argue about. No right or wrong. Just my point of view.

Seemples.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:07 PM

False logic, Dick. Nowhere do I say folk clubs are not important. I just believe that folk music is more important. If it was not for Folk music, folk clubs would not exist. If folk clubs did not exist, folk music would carry on as it did before 1950. So which is more important?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:13 PM

A folk club - for good or ill - is personal interaction with living, breathing people. "Online" is watching a TV or computer screen.
Not the same thing, and the latter will never be an adequate substitue for the former.
Just my point of view.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:17 PM

It isn't, Kenny. You are quite right. Hence my putting There are alternatives to Folk clubs both live and online Folk clubs are good but my point is that they are not the be all and end all.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 01:20 PM

Will Folk Clubs survive-Almost Certainly
Will they stay in the same venues- Almost certainly not although that's not hard and fast.
My prediction is the emergence of house parties, the use of private halls or rooms, arts centres, and existing social clubs, or hotels with a spare room and a bar. In fact anywhere that an audience can listen and participate. I think the days of the upstairs room in a pub are numbered.
Just a matter of venue that's all. Folk songs are tough cookies, and they will surface again stronger than before, believe me.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:02 PM

That last line is perfect, Nick.

Good to hear from you.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:17 PM

Re the "You can always switch it off (Or fast forward)" argument in support of Online concerts and the like....

Yes, you can whereas you can't do that in a club or concert.
However, many choose to go to the toilet or bar when a duff singer is performing or even if they know that there's a particular song coming up that they may not like. I've even done that myself, discreetly of course! :-)

Notwithstanding the above, it can be rewarding to persevere.
An artist may grow on you after a few songs and you might just be lucky enough to witness some classic moments and/or material. If you keep flicking through various You Tube clips and so on, you'll likely miss a lot and th focus is likely to be, for most people, on their favourite singers and musicians or those which have been recommended.

It's already the case that many younger people never listen to an album all the way through anymore and just pick and choose their favourite songs. That used to be one of the joys of playing vinyl and to a lesser extent actual CDs but all that has been lost.
I'd hate things to go the same way with live performances and concerts.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM

In fact anywhere that an audience can listen and participate.quote nic dow.
that exactly what a folk club is, whether the room is upstairs or downstairs in a pub or in a social club or in a britsh legion club or a cricket club it is not important, they are still folk clubs where hopefully some tradtional music can be heard
or as in the case of norwich folk club in a perfect acoustic room but without a bar, but it is still norwich folk club. hopefully open mics will disappear

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:16 PM

Huge drawback to the online tack is that YOU personally have to search, whereas I always found the great delight of folk clubs, sessions whether they be in pubs or on the fringes of festivals you could sit down and hear things that you yourself would never have otherwise found.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 03:30 PM

Dave
I'm sorry you've decided to opt for purdah rather that talk through your somewhat dogmatic claims (that's what they are if you won't discuss them - though that was me)
You are, of course to entitled to do just that, just as I am entitled to draw my own conclusions why you don't want to discuss your beliefs - I genuinely thought doing that was why people posted here - live and learn eh?
I also reserve the right to comment on what I believe you have said and what you say here
I was told by someone not so long ago not to refer directly to what he wrote - sorry - don't do that sort of thing on a public forum
Apart from anything else your views and what I believe to be contradictions reflect others opinions here

I have made quite clear why I believe folk clubs to be important; to extend what Kenny has just said far more succinctly than I could manage, they are not just a means of personal interaction, they are personal and social interaction themselves by their very existence
They are clear statements - "This is is what I believe", "this is how I feel", "this is who I am" - and the most effective way to get the message across has always been face to face (from the point of view of the teller and listener
They have always worked best in an intimate setting among those who share the same experiences, outrages and ambitions
As large as some club rooms have been, I have seldom come across a folk cub where that can't be achieved

I used to attend Festivals before they became conveyor belts for established performers - even the indifferent and good ones were breaks from the real thing for a short time

The internet I find spooky - disembodied faces and voices on a small plastic screen which you either like or hate but over which you have no control whatever (except to "click your fingers and wait for the next disembodies....); brrrrrr!!
I've watched more than a few 'locked-down refugees' and remain coldly unconvinced
They seem to fall into several categories: seasoned performers who you like or dislike, unknowns practicing or others who don't care for folk song but just wanna do their own thing      
Not for me, even if it didn't exclude people who are technically literate, or self conscious or camera shy or simply don't have or don't want or can't afford the necessary equipment any way - I knew few if any folk clubs that ever did that

We are gregarious creature whose art thrives on that fact - lats hang on to the wherewithal to do just that for as long as we can

I don't believe premises are as major a problem as some people believe them to be
Lookking at Nick's list I go alng with some but would shy away from impersonal venues like halls (even village halls)

I think home gatherings are fine if incestuous and unlikely to attract the desperately needed youngsters

Small public rooms fine - when The Dublin Goilín Cub was ousted from its pub rook it quickly found a perfect home in a teacher's club
Ther are not as many pub rooms as there were but there are still some where guvnors welcome musicians with open arms on a quiet night - that, I believe is bound to increase come the impending slump

For crying out loud, let's' keep this music as live as it was always intended to be

There seems to have been a big U-turn here
For years I have been shouted down and told I am out of touch when I said the clubs were failing
Now, It seems. I was right all along and people didn't really like clubs anyway
Dave (whatever he says now) insisted that the clubs were in fine fettle, why else would he link me to a wiki article saying just that if that's not what he was saying ?
He says he was referring to just his own club but I saw no mention of that in the article - just a national assessment
I was invited to a club he now claims is "not important' why ?
Perhaps he was lusting after my body - a narrow escape eh? :-)

Looking at what's available to youngsters on today's internet and comparing it with the 'self conscious elite amateurism' of the folk input, I con't believe there be a snowball's chance in hell of attracting new people to our music other than for the reasons that Londoners used to visit 'Bedlam' to look at 'the loonies' on Sunday afternoon
Sorry folks, I think a bit of realism is called for here
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:15 AM

Sigh. Here we go again

Dave (whatever he says now) insisted that the clubs were in fine fettle, why else would he link me to a wiki article saying just that if that's not what he was saying ?

That is not why I linked the article. I told you that only a matter of days ago.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM
...
Yet again you are misrepresenting the facts Jim. You argued that clubs were failing because they no longer presented folk music. I put up the article because it said

The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends.

I said I am not arguing but I have the patience to correct you every time you misrepresent me. That has not changed.

Nor have my views which I explained very clearly only yesterday. If you want to dispute anything I actually said, rather that what you imagined I said, feel free.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:30 AM

He says he was referring to just his own club but I saw no mention of that in the article - just a national assessment
I was invited to a club he now claims is "not important' why ?
Perhaps he was lusting after my body - a narrow escape eh? : quote. jim
   excellent post, no he is too busy playing with his fishing rod at the bottom of the garden
The points i have made illustrate the potential for excellence that folk clubs could achieve that open mics are not[by their wallpaper nature]not achieving. folk music songs deserve respect in the same way classical opera has respect that means when i attend being able to listen and hear the words., and not be drowned out by extraneous conversation, that is why folk clubs will survive ,
i hope when i turn up that i can hear story songs and that i can join in choruses and participate and that i can hear trad material. preferably without amplification, although there are occasions when the balance in a duo such as carthy kirkpatrick, that the guests performers insist upon it,for balance of instruments it is occasionally necessary but unfortunately the downside of amplification is that it [imo] creats a barrier the vast majority of folk clubs do not require amplification
another radical difference between them and open mics is the amplification question. performers should respect their music and audiences should respect performers and not treat music and performers like wallpaper music of course amplification is also provided on occasions to get more bums on seats another example of commercialism interfering with the music set up. if all this makes me effete so be it

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:33 AM

dave,, when you are in a hole stop digging otherwise you might end up in australia

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:40 AM

Once again, Dick, I have the patience to correct your misrepresentations no matter how many times you make them. I have never said that Folk clubs are not important. Just that Folk music is more important than folk clubs.

The beauty of discussions like this is that they remain online for anyone to look back on. Everyone can see what I said just as everyone can see how you have tried to change it. It doesn't work and does you no favours.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 02:54 AM

Folk music and song and dance will continue to have a following no matter where, while ever people sing, dance, play and entertain

Traditional music and song have their origins in other than folk clubs! and it is the genre and following that matters most ~ "folk" however it is defined is dependent upon its audience ~ whether they are paying customers or not

People(folk) like to create their own entertainment and will continue to so, hopefully in pubs and other acceptable venues ~ long may it be so and long live folk clubs, festivals, workshops, EFDSS and local initiatives

New songs and songwriters will always be composed and no they are not traditional ~ but who knows ultimately!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 03:38 AM

Just that Folk music is more important than folk clubs. quote gnome
All the time you make statements that can be interpreted in different ways, and that have different meanings you are laying yourself open to being intrepreted in different ways.
folk music is more important than folk clubs, can be interpreted as meaning that the music is more important than the venue[ a folk club is a venue is it not?]
I am afraid that if you meant that, you are wrong , the venues are very important to the success of a club, acoustics ambience etc.
or if you mean venues in the sense of open mics or folkclubs you are wrong again as i have already illustrated in previous posts,
if you did not mean either of these things. i suggest you take more care with your wording in future
VENUES[ EG FOLK CLUBS OR OPEN MICS] AND OR BUILDINGS THAT VENUES ARE IN ARE JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE FOLK CLUB ITSELF AND JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE MUSIC ITSELF.
my point is that having suitable venues or kinds of venues[ eg folk clubs rather than open mics] is part of showing respect for the music, if you want to play folk music in a public toilet go ahead and enjoy ,but dont expect me to turn up

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 03:51 AM

Folk song was grinding to a halt when Sharp and his crowd had thei arce with the undertaker (Tom Munnelly's description of Ireland) the songs were being remembered by elderly people, most of whom were reporting what ther parents and grandparents sang
When hsrp finished his work, the songs were confined to drawing rooms and didn't surface again till they were taken out of their cryogenics machines by the second revival in the late fifties - it took hard and dedicated work to do that
They have never been accepted by anybody other than us few eccentrics
Unless people are prepared to do the work they will retreat to their shelves and cupboards as they have before
It is suicidely complacent to think otherwise
Who on earth is going to take these old-old songs up if they are not won over
I suggest you count those singing real folk songs for the love of them, work out their average age and come beck and tell me there are enough

Sure - peole have always liked to make their own entertainment - go and look how much is on offer to choose from and see how far down the list folk song comes (if the list is long enough)

Far too many people misinterpreting you nowadays Dave - would it be rude to suggest.....?
Maybe it would
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:04 AM

Folk music is not just suitable to be played in any venue at any time, and that is why we have folk clubs.
you try singing half an hour of songs such as tifties annie in a working mens club
there are of course some situations outside of folk clubs where some aspects of folk music can work , for example ITM instrumental sessions work well enough often in pubs where people are not going specifically for the music, but the problem with this is that the overall folk repertoire becomes limited. then you have the argument why should customers who are enjoying alcohol have music foisted on them,just because we like it it does not mean everybody does,
that is another
reason why having specific venues for the music is important .
MORRIS DANCING is another example, of folk music that can work however morris dancing and ITM , DO NOT REQUIRE PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO LISTEN TO LYRICS AND HEAR THEM PROPERLY.
That is why having correct and suitable venues is as important as playing the music, house parties and folk clubs are venues that fall in to that category,
public toilets and noisy pubs do not.
Dave, stop getting hung up on your notion of somebody trying to misrepresent you, but listen to the points being made, if you agree with what i am saying then just say so.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:12 AM

Re venues,

While "upstairs" or in the back room of a pub is great although not always suitable for more high profile guests, there are other possibilities as has been mentioned.

I went to a folk club held in a cafe(Ardersier Folk Club) a few months back which was very homely. Nice decor and furniture and not a "greasy spoon" type of place. The cafe was actually closed in the evening and the folkies just took it over. We could bring in our own beer, wine etc and it was a great atmosphere.

Re village halls, some also have smaller rooms attached. For instance, we always have a great time at Newcastleton Village Hall during the festival in the Supper Room. However, smaller halls themselves can also be reorganised according to the event with tables instead of rows of seats etc.
There are any number of possibilities. Bringing in your own drink is often a better experience that consuming what many pubs have on offer although there are still some good establishments around selling good beer etc.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:16 AM

"Folk music is not just suitable to be played in any venue at any time, and that is why we have folk clubs.
you try singing half an hour of songs such as tifties annie in a working mens club"

It could still be a folk club although it is being held within a working men's club, of course. The club would just hire or use a suitable room on a night when it was free. Many folk clubs do, in fact, meet in clubs. Bowling clubs, for some reason, seem to be very popular for this sort of thing in Scotland.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:26 AM

I used to go to a folk club in a book shop in Manchester in a similar style, Johnny J.

Dick,the venues are very important to the success of a club. Of course they are. But if it wasn't for Folk music, the folk club would not exist at all. So which is more important? As far as I can tell, there is no other way of interpreting "Folk music is more important than folk clubs". No matter how hard you try.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 04:30 AM

Dick is spot on
Songs at sessions tend to be the poor relation when the musicians want a break and a **** chat - musicians can be the worst listeners of songs
Try getting attention for a big ballad in a roomful of drinkers
Sam Larner summed it up pefectly - "sure, we sang in the Fisherman's Return every week but the serious singing was among your mates who liked the songs, usually at home or at sea"
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:03 AM

"But if it wasn't for Folk music, the folk club would not exist at all."
If it wasn't for the folk clubs the folk songs gathered by those astute to realise their value would be locked in cupboards for other people who realised their value to ask permission to us
Do you know how much information of this sort is is the same position - go and ask for a tour of the vaults of The British Library (or even the locked cupboards of Cecil Sharp House) sometime
This sort of complacency with return folk song to those vaults and cupboards
The media wil only continue to give it air space if there are enough people to make it worthwhile, as they have more than proved over and over again
We needf our own platform open to all - even the technically illiterate
THat is why folk cluns are not "unimportant"
Ignore away -Dave - I'm addressing this to the open-minded
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:03 AM

it is more important to have suitable places to sing the music , if you sing the music in places where no one is interested, you are demeaning the music you are also not able to perform it as well,good performance is a two way thing it requires interaction.
I have got to the point now where i would rather sing for my own pleasure at home ,or as i did yesterday sitting on a deserted beach at dunmanus bay in the sunshine , than sing at an open mic or to be booked at a totally unsuitable venue, that is why i no longer take gigs on new years eve. there is your answer.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:14 AM

it is more important to have suitable places to sing the music

Well, Dick. As you have made part of your living from performing at these places I can understand why you believe that. But let me ask you a question. If it wasn't for Folk music, what would be the point of folk clubs?

And Jim, I have already gone to great lengths to point out that I have on no occasion said that Folk clubs are not important. Just that Folk music is more so. If you wish to dismiss that as closed minded there is nothing I can add.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:42 AM

Re Sam Larner quote
"serious singing was among your mates who liked the songs, usually at home or at sea"

So, that's what happened before folk clubs existed. At sea, on the berry fields, in the factories, mines etc and in the community too. Also, people passing songs and tunes to their children who would share them with each other in street games etc.
There was also the more formal music hall tradition too and people getting together for "a song". By their own accounts, when the early collectors were doing their field work, many of the source singers also had many "modern" songs of the time in their repertoire too. They didn't think of their old songs as "folk" or "traditional" but just songs.

Of course, much of the above was almost lost in the modern world and folk clubs and the work done by many performers, activists, academics and so on in preserving same and keeping the music alive was very important. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

However, as Dave says, there are other ways. Many are fairly similar to or adapted from the folk club model, of course, but some will be quite different. Not all changes will be for the good, I'm sure, but that's always been the case.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:48 AM

"it is more important to have suitable places to sing the music , "
That's the truest thing anybody acn say about folk song and the snide comment about your being professional certainly sorts the white hats from the black hats in this difference of opinion
I have my reservations about how important paid singers have to the future of folk song - it depends how much they take out and how much they put back (and whether the latter should be, to some degree mandatory - but evry singer of folk song needs a decent listening venue or else they are being degraded and exploited (if they are paid)
Out binman works to an agreed standard and I'd never have been able to d my job with a crowd of noisy drunks getting in may way
Why sould singers have tio settle for second best or rely on only what the media and music industry think they can profit from
That's where a no-club (or even an "unimportant club" scene would invariably end up
Keep up the pressure
Jim