Origins: Lilli Schull/Shaw(American murder ballad)

Subject: Origins: Lilli Schull (American murder ballad)
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 01 May 20 - 12:32 PM

Hello - I'm just wondering whether anyone knows anything about the origins or history of the song 'Lilli Schull'? It was recorded by the US group Uncle Tupelo on their album 'March 16-20, 1992'. I am assuming it's a traditional American murder ballad but I can't seem to find out anything more about it. Does anybody know any other recorded versions or indeed anything about the song at all? Thanks!

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Uncle Tupelo recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZHupxlc4ro

Subject: RE: Origins: Lilli Schull (American murder ballad)
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 01 May 20 - 01:01 PM

Lilli Schull (traditional)

This old murder ballad, which describes the killing of a woman whose name was actually Lillie Shaw, appeared on the same New World release as "Come All Ye Coal Miners." The liner notes from that release indicate that Lilly Shaw was murdered in October 1903, by Finley Preston of Saw Mill Creek, TN as a consequence of a sexual triangle. Preston was convicted, and was hanged in November, 1905. This old murder ballad was recorded for the Library of Congress by sisters Mrs. Lena Bare Turbyfill and Mrs. Lloyd Bare Hagie in April 1939 in Elk Park, NC by Herbert Halpert. The liner notes say "Mrs. Turbyfill and her sister, Mrs. Hagie, learned the song as teenagers from their sister Sabra, who learned it from a Tennessean named Glenn Crosswhite about 1913.... As the "Ballad of Finley Preston," this song is still sung in eastern Tennessee, and appears performed by Clint Howard and Fred Price on an LP, The Ballad of Finley Preston (Rounder 0009)."


Found that at https://www.factorybelt.net/covers_released.htm

Subject: RE: Origins: Lilli Schull (American murder ballad)
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 01 May 20 - 01:06 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2uCP5QhHCo

That is a take done by Clint Howard and Fred Price.

There are others on YouTube.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lilli Schull (American murder ballad)
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 01 May 20 - 03:11 PM

http://www.fresnostate.edu/folklore/ballads/BrII208.html

https://books.google.ca/books?id=ojrqCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=for+the+murder+of+Lillie+Shaw,+Who+I+so+cruelly+murdered+And

The second link is the more interesting of the two. In that, her name is spelled Lily, so the nut that will be hard to crack is how it's all got from Lilli Schull to Lily Shaw. First thing that comes to mind is that someone will 'bad' handwriting could conceivably make Shaw look like Schull. Lord knows about the Lillies.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lilli Schull (American murder ballad)
From: cnd
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:27 PM

Given the time frame I think the likely deviations in names came from vocal pronunciation differences.

You can also read a bit more about it in the Frank C. Brown collection of North Carolina folklore here and here

You can see a very full version of the lyrics here, attributed to Jerome Presnell of Adams, NC, but no date is given.  I believe the Jerome Presnell in question passed away in 1953.

Subject: ADD Version: Lisa Shaw
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 20 - 02:57 AM

Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry:

Lillie Shaw

DESCRIPTION: The singer describes the crowd gathered to see his execution "for the murder of Lillie Shaw, Who I so cruelly murdered And her body shamefully (?) burned." He recalls the crime, sees his parents in the crowd, and hopes for forgiveness
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1933 (Henry, from the singing of Sofia Hampton)
KEYWORDS: homicide execution punishment gallows-confession
FOUND IN: US(Ap,SE)
REFERENCES (3 citations):
MHenry-Appalachians, pp. 55-56, "Lillie Shull" (1 text)
BrownII 308, "Lillie Shaw" (1 text)
BrownSchinhanIV 306, "Lillie Shaw" (2 excerpts, 2 tunes)
Roud #4627
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Pretty Fair Widow (Lillie Shaw)" (subject)
NOTES [54 words]: Although there are two songs on this subject, and this one at least spread enough to be collected three times, no one seems to have found details on the fates of Lillie Shaw and Jim Wilcox/E. B. Preston.
Frank Proffit, who supplied the Warner ballad, claimed the murder took place in the 1880s in Mountain City, Tennessee. - RBW
Last updated in version 2.7
File: BrII208

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2020 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

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LILLIE SHAW

1. The great crowd now has gathered
Around this jail today,
To see my execution
And to hear what I’ve to say.

2. Now I must hang this morning
For the murder of Lillie Shaw,
Who I so cruelly murdered
And her body shamefiely burned.

3. Then I knelt down to Jesus,
In penetrated grief,
And begged that he might save me
As he did the dying thief.

4. Then my soul could hear a whisper
Said in most gentle tone,
‘My grave is one sufficient
To hold this violent one.’

5. The cries of poar Lillie
Again I could almost hear,
As she begged me not to kill her,
Her life alone to spare.

6. The fire where I burned her
Again was in my sight,
The only fire consuming
In the fire that form so bright.

7. Now I must hang this morning,
The time is drawing near,
But I have a hope in heaven
And death I do not fear.

8. And there’s my Dear old Parents,
Who now for me will maurn,
Likewise my wife and baby
Who will be left alone.

9. God care for my baby,
Who will be left alone;
I pray the lord will keep him
From all danger, harm, and sin.

10. The hour has now arrived,
I can no longer stay.
I hope that I will meet you
In Heaven some sweet day.

#308 in The Frank C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore, - Volume 2, page 721

Notes:
308
LILLIE SHAW
Henry, in SSSA 55, printed a ballad entitled ‘Lillie Shull,’ obtained from Elk Park, Avery county, in 1933, which has the same substantial content as the following but orders the stanzas somewhat differently and shows a number of verbal differences.
From Mrs. Minnie Church, of Heaton, Avery county, who between
1930 and 1939 contributed this and many other items to the Frank C. Brown Collection.

Volume 4 of the Brown Collection has two melodies for #308. I'll transcribe them if somebody asks. [e-mail]

Subject: ADD Version: Lilli Schull (American murder ballad)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 20 - 03:04 AM

Uncle Tupelo lyrics:

LILLI SCHULL

A great crowd has now gathered
All around the jail today
To see me executed
And hear what I do say

Now I must hang this morning
For the murder of Lilli Schull
Whom I so cruelly murdered
And her body shamefully burned

The fire where I burned her
Is again now in my sight
Her lovely face recovering
And the fire that burned so bright

The cries of poor Lilli
Again I can almost hear
As she begged me not to kill her
Her life alone to spare

Now I bow down to Jesus
In penitential grief
And I beg him now to save me
Like he did the dying thief

God bless my aged parents
Who mourn for me alone
And my wife and baby
Who will be left alone

It was then that I heard a whisper
In a most gentle tone
My grave is one sufficient
To save the vilest one

(verified with the recording)
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6sCxMYDeBQ

Subject: RE: Origins: Lilli Schull/Shaw(American murder ballad)
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 02 May 20 - 06:10 PM

Thank you!