Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!

Subject: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 05:55 AM

He was the opener for the first session of the CCC Virtual Festival last weekend, a very talented young guitarist and singer indeed, which is on youtube (not at my PC). I think we shall hear more from him!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 20 - 06:15 AM

NOT THE JOHN DORAN I KNOW BOZO
As he's a "knacker" I'm sure, not to your taste
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 06:56 AM

You're right!

John Doran at 7:18!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:02 AM

John Doran was a uilliann piper and great musician,who died in 1950.
Jon Doran is young singer and equally as good a musician in his own field.
I like them both,one influenced many talented Irish musicians,the other will keep the interest in English song and music going in the future.
Comparing apples to pears,both taste good,but different.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:14 AM

It's better to be in bad taste than to taste bad!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:21 AM

"You're right!"
Nope _I'm left - you're right
I agree with Derrick's first statement but plead the fifth on the second as it may start and argument
Can't see there to be any comparison between the two - my binoculars don't cover that distance :-)
Can only find 'a Jon Doran sort of singing Mary and the Soldier
If that's the feller your comparing with the piping legend, À Chacun Son Goût
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:28 AM

well the piper was very good,not sure i would bother to investigate anyone bonzo recommends. if i happen to catch him live sometime i will make up my own mind.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:30 AM

i tell you what annoys me here this star mentality thing that bonzo projects, that is not what this music is about, that folk music has a future because of one person, bollocks

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:45 AM

I would not have expected anything more puerile from the leftwaffe. Did I say that I was comparing with someone of the same name that I've never heard of, or indeed wish to hear of?

"star mentality"...………………………………..what????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:50 AM

He was the opener for the first session of the CCC Virtual Festival last weekend, a very talented young guitarist and singer indeed, which is on youtube (not at my PC). I think we shall hear a lot more from him!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4QBySrSV6w&t=54s

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 20 - 08:03 AM

"not sure i would bother to investigate anyone bonzo recommends."
Hi is entitled to his opinion of course - - his violent reaction to a lightly-made disagreement is a different matter altogether
Bozo's tactic is to nause up discussions with outrageous down-putting comments - apparently he doesn't handle others making fall less aggressive comments on his postings to well - some people never do
Personally, I find the clip he has just put up grossly over - accompanied and therefore indecipherable
Had I not just listened to it earlier with a title over it I would have no idea what the song was 'Mary and the Soldier' again, I think
A word on criticism - if performers don't like their performances discussed critically they should stay at home and sing to their ribber ducks in the bath - that goes for their followers
Criticism is a way to improve
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 08:18 AM

I praise you for by far exceeding your normal level of irish drivel. If you don't like it put up or shut up toad.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:19 AM

I'm grateful for your proving what an unpleasant individual are once again - it really does people like this young singer no good having people like you on his side
I was happy to discuss his singing - his approach interests me because singing like that has created a great deal of problems for the revival
Our songs are narrative, 'Peggy and the Soldier' is a beautiful songs full of interesting things to say
If you drown it in musical soup, as he does, it becomes difficult to follow
He has a fair voice and he's a skillful instrumentalist but he can't decide whether he wants to be a singer or a musician so one cancels out the other
Personally, I believe Martin Carthy and his wannabe copiers have the same problem
There - I've shown you mine - you show me yours - without the abuse or you'll get your own thread closed
There really is no need to be so defensive
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:43 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NJaXI0A28I a version of the song that is full of expression jeanie robertson

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:45 AM

jeanies version in my opinion is a better way to treat the song , that gives me hope for folk music. all a matter of opinion.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:57 AM

but ignoring the question of taste;
some constructive criticism , the guitairist is very competent , however on occasions the vocals are uunclear because of the loudness of the accompaniment, john doran has a pleasant voice, but this is a story song , but yet no attempt is made by the singer to sing it as a story, finally if the singer got the balance between voice and guitar and voice sorted out it would[imo] be better ,the purpose of a story song is to be able to hear all the words clearly above the accpmpaniment.
bonzo, if you put a clip up you cannot just expect everyone to agree with you.
the guitar style is a little rminscent of nic jones, i know bonzo was a fan of nic jones ,nic however always had the guitar lower in volume than the vocals.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 09:59 AM

finally, bonzo ,i am not a sidekick of anyone

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:09 AM

here is nic jones singing this song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoRoc97qAE all the words are clear and he sings the song more expressively than john doran. i agree with jim carroll and prefer jeanie robertson ,but comparing the two accompanired versions, nic jones is in my opinion better than john dorans, his singing is because of the levels and expression. bonzo if you put someone on a pedestal you must expect other people toexpress constructive criticsm

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:10 AM

Glad to hear it Sandman!!!

Sorry but I can't listen to your Jeanie Robertson, my ears cannot take that style of singing. I'm sure it's pleasing to many.

"He has a fair voice and he's a skillful instrumentalist but he can't decide whether he wants to be a singer or a musician so one cancels out the other"

Carroll must think this is a discussion????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:13 AM

here is another accompanied version dolores keane all the words can be heard clearly,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK4TsfooOWM

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:23 AM

I hope a moderator can please correct the thread title. His name is spelled Jon Doran. Please get the 'h out of there.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: gillymor
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:27 AM

This young John Doran is something, especially his 'zouk style.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - John Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:32 AM

jon doran is introduced by the silly compere as completely unique and singing in a completely unique style ,bullshit ,
everyone is unique.. however his style is heavily influenced by nic jones, even to the extent of [in my opinion] playing unecessary guitar instrumentals, which focus on his higly accomplished guitar playing, and which interrupt the flow of the song.
A mistake that many very good guitarists make, so again nothing unique therem, asregards makingand indulgingguitar technique to the detriment of the story of the song and to keeping the instrument as an accompanimemnt, he is follwing in the footsteps of carthy and jones technique should notbe used as an end in itself, it should be thereto demonstrate musicality, if you want to demonstrate musicalcompetence instrumentally play an instrumental ,dont fall in to the trap of letting it interfere with the telling of a story

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:41 AM

however it is great that he is singing some tradtional songs, the best advice i could give him woulsd be listen to nic dow or brian peters both are a men who are very accomplished as a guitruists and singers, but understand how to interpret vocally tradtional story ballads

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:48 AM

nic dow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko2UKE75en0

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:59 AM

brian petershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggBA4-ljloU

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:15 AM

Here's a link to his YouTube presence for those who wish to hear more of Jon D's work:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jon+doran+music

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:36 AM

"I hope a moderator can please correct the thread title. His name is spelled Jon Doran. Please get the 'h out of there."

Many thanks guest Starship- tired eyes after a week working at home - no wonder I couldn't find anything else on youtube by Jon!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:03 PM

You're welcome. And for what it's worth, the kid ain't bad. He has a bit of maturing to do with regard to performance, but that'll come with time. About the tired eyes, tell me about it. For a few minutes I was searching for Jon Boden and stuff just wasn't adding up. ;-)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:07 PM

Believe me I've searched for "John" Boden before now and nothing came up!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:08 PM

yes he has potential, but if he was to emulate nic dow a performer with very good guitar technique but who rarely lets it interfere or spoil with his accompaniments he might fulfil his potential

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 16 May 20 - 01:14 PM

I see a young singer/musician with a very bright future in music, and the more he learns from more experienced singers and musicians the easier will be his journey through music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH--82_4njk&list=RDkH--82_4njk&start_radio=1

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 May 20 - 01:51 PM

Agreed Starship, the lad is very like
Daoiri Farrell
in style a has the same connectivity in presentation and emotional content

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Tradsinger
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:37 PM

I know Jon personally. He is a very modest but talented man who works hard at his music. As some of the above posts suggest, I think he is still developing but I am sure we will hear more of him.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:44 PM

I agree 100%.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive)
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:57 PM

One for Akenaton in case you have missed it, nice to see you back

Music from Scotland New performers Plus

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 16 May 20 - 05:44 PM

Hallo therr Kenny, thanks for the heids up I'll try to get a listen to the accordion player tomorrow   and I haven't seen Ian for years, he's wearin' well. I've never been away mate but I'm no' allowed in the wean's bit ony merr!!    :o).

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive)
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:11 PM

There is lots of new stuff on that site, Scabby D did an hour last Sunday
I know the feeling I became "inactive" in 2018 guess why? …. no reply reqd.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 16 May 20 - 07:38 PM

Just had a very quick watch of this - a snippet only - I saw the Sunday afternoon and early Saturday night of the CCC Festival (Calan- ish were astoundingly good) which introduced me to some excellent new artists and I will be going back to catch up with the rest

On first impression Jon seems to be a very proficient guitarist and a decent singer - sure his voice possibly needs some development - that will come in time - but as Bonzo says the future of folk is safe with such young musicians who were in abundance in that online festival. The Folk on Foot Front Room Festival was also superb and I'm delighted to see they are doing another one on Bank Holiday Weekend with another superb line up

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:57 AM

Thanks for you kind words of encouragement for these excellent young artists.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:45 AM

Thanks Bonzo for the "heads up", a very talented young man. Personally I enjoyed listening to him play and sing - all he has to do is keep singing and playing, he doesn't need to emulate anybody. To those who like to compare - With regard to "Mary and the Soldier" listen to Paul Brady and Andy Irvine do it.

People do things differently, of the other versions offered above, liked Nick Dow, Brian Peters would drive me mad [Too much chat and waffle - was bored stupid before he started playing - he even forgot what song he was going to do].

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:52 AM

"the future of folk is safe with such young musicians"
I don't wish to rock the boat again, but for me, folk song is too important to let thi pass without comment
Doran is, as you say id siklful at what he does and will become better, but his approach, in turng folk songs into skilfully produced pieces of music have been long tried and have failed dismally on the English scene -
Carthy, Rose and others based their performances on it and made their mark - they produced many copyists
Despite this, the fortunes of English narrative song have declined steadily to the point of disappearing - I hear echoes of Carthy in his approach - music rather than song
The English and Scots song traditions are narrative - that is why they survived as stories and were never accompanied
Over-accompany a folk song and it becomes something else - a pleasant (or not) piece of music)
This may or may not benefit the singer (depending on popular tase) but it does nothing for the tradition and it is certainly not what today's young people are looking for
To suggest it is a self indulgence of our generation rather than an attempt to pass on these songs or future use - the Irish youngsters are taking up the songs as traditional storytelling pieces big-time and the tradition is on a roll, rather than just limping along
My opinion, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:31 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m_9aqwrj3I&list=PLbLb_7MyoDFp65gQCQe18_Xih0ze5ej59&index=4 a different take on the song again.
Jim jeannie roberston perfoms the song and tells it as a story,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NJaXI0A28I however tradtions change and evolve
and it is possible to sing a song and accompany and still tell the song as a story,now my guitar playing is not as technically proficient as jon dorans,but the playing does not interfere with the storyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVaI2GHZ80g&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A&index=6

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:43 AM

Times have changed, until our standard of living returns to subsistence levels as it was in the early 20th century, people will demand suitable entertainment. The dirges of battles lost, laments on personal hardships etc, have no real meaning to present generations who have only known a life of relative prosperity. Some of these young singers and musicians are entertaining but also manage to convey an understanding of times past through their passion for the music. True they are few a far between, but when they appear they should be appreciated, not condemned.
In saying that, some of the stuff being produced has moved so far from the genre, that it no longer contains any of the necessary emotional content for it to be viewed as "folk music"

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:46 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOe5aMiNQ3I arkansa red , no superflous guitat instrumentals , he tells the story and the singing is clear,every word of the story is clear,guitar accompaniment is an accopmpaniment, and we have to go to a feckin country singer to get it r8ght

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:57 AM

Ake
People made songs to express their feelings at how they were treated - poverty, wars, hardship, revolutions - created our folk songs
The Civil rights movement in the US produced amses of songs
If people were happy with their lot we wouldn't have the folk songs we do
You egard them as "dirges" - I spent over half a century with people who regarded them as enjoyable culture and entertainment
If we all took the view you do we would make a huge bonfire of Dickens, Hardy and Shakespeare and turn to the mass froth that we are sold to get our rocks off   
You think youngsters don't want folk song for what it is I suggest a trip to Ireland where the kids have now guaranteed a three generation survival for their musical traditions
Folk song is what it is - if you don't like it - that's your loss
It would be a betrayal to abandon 'The Songs of the People for the ephemeral dross - your choice, of course
If our generation got the pleasure we did from centuries old "dirges" why on earth shouldn't the present lot
At least give them the benefit of intelligence
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:10 AM

For me of course, I am interested only in the overall sound. I like to hear Jon's style of playing, and as his vocal style is encouraging, that is a bonus for me. My choice of course!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:10 AM

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.”
? Bertrand Russell

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:14 AM

The thread is about "hope for folk music"......that means in the future.
We are not discussing personal likes or dislikes, at least, I am not!
I am referring to making folk song relevant today and in the future, something which requires an element of entertainment which can appeal to uncommitted listeners.
I am aware that you haven't noticed Jim, but our generation are almost extinct and the present generation have no emotional connection to the dirges which refer back to what seems to them ancient history.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:30 AM

"that means in the future."
For the future of the old songs, just as we could be discussing the future of Shakespeare
I have noticed our generation is nearly gone - I hope to christ our folk music hasn't - I've dedicated a lifetime to help create the possibility that future generations geyt the same pleasure out of the old music that we did and that Irish kids are now doing
If you think they are dirges you haven't been listening - thet are as varied as any other genre of song, poem, play o novel - as a Sunday newspaper used to headline each week "All human life is there"
You obviouly don't like tham - fine - stand aside and gibv others a chance to
Once these threads start nobody decides what "we're discussing" - it goes where it goes
It has nothiing to dioo with prsonal likes or dislikes - folk song is what it is - like it or not
Hopefully it will outlive us for a few centuries -f the modernist don't tear it down to replace it with the monstrosities that pass for art and culture that we are sold nowadays
Art isn't a replaceable commodity, it is something to be added to constantly - it becomes part of a people's history
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:41 AM

This wee lassie has lately become the "voice" of Scottish folk, I;ve loved her unique voice since she started out years ago and have corresponded with her on various forums, To me she seems to embody the ethos of "folk Music"    she is a natural. Please listen and say what you all think, good or not so good. No offence will be taken.
Marie Campbell

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:03 AM

very pleasant, akeneaton, mind you i love the original lea rigs tune, sensitive acompaniment

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:10 AM

"To me she seems to embody the ethos of "folk Music"
Once again, À Chacun Son Goût
It soungs like no Scots orr ant "folk" music I've heard - it certainly diooesn't even sound "Scottish"
I'd be interested if anybody could compare it to any Scots traditional singer - I certainly couldn't
This is becoming somewhat 'fanzine'
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:12 AM

I would have thought it fits the term 'dirgy' perfectly - sounds a bit miserable to me
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:24 AM

Absolutely wonderful, beautiful sound.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:27 AM

Sorry, Jim Carroll you are outnumbered on this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:44 AM

Jim the song is about love/lust/longing, don't you remember?   To me this song embodies them all, and it's not because I personally like the lassie's style, it is a prospective way of keeping the young people in touch with the tradition, just like Jon and Raoiri do.
Thanks for ALL the opinions so far.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:56 AM

Jim

Some of us manage perfectly well to hear, understand and feel moved by the words and story in a song whether it has instrumental accompaniment or not. Indeed many of us find songs enhanced by such accompaniment.

The fact that you prefer (for that is what it appears to be) songs either without accompaniment or with very limited instrumental interference doesn't mean that the performance is any less 'folk'. The accompaniment does equal, if not better, service to the song in the opionion of myself and, I dare say, thousands of other folk enthusiasts

Despite what you say it really is about what you like and don't like as it is with me :-)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:02 AM

it does not alter the fact that the most expressive version of raggle taggle gypsies comes from jeannie robertson, in my opinion she sings it better than anyone else including martin carthy nic jones. bonzo has a prejudice against the style of jeannie robertson, which is exactly what i expected from him after observing his comments about performance.. what turns bonzo on is nic jones guitar style , nic was a n innovative guitarist... but why not just listen to guitar instrumentals.nic jones in my opnion was a charismatic performer, but as a singer he owes only a little to tradtional style, he has a voca lstyle that is more like frank sinatra

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:07 AM

no joe g, it is not just about taste, in a story ballad a long guitar instrsrumentals in the middle interferes with the flow of the story, if you went to see a story teller let us say eddie lenihane and halfway through he did a two minute warble on the jews harp , you would wonder what the fuck was going on

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:11 AM

"Jim the song is about love/lust/longing, don't you remember? "
Which you've just described and condemned as "dirgy
u need to make up your mind Ake
If one genre of song is dismissed for that, why not the other ?
You can'rt approach folk song on the basis of personal preferences
"Some of us manage perfectly"
I'm sure some do Joe- not the point
The singing is gappy and non-narrative and the stupid strumming on the fiddle acts as a distinctive to follow the story - it's as far from a Scottish folk song as you can possibly get
Ake presented it as just that
He also raised the question of involving new people - what on earth are they going to make of that, considering what's on offer fo most young people today - planets apart
It is self-industry folkiism at its worst and if that's what passes for good folk nowadays it's the last gap of a dying culture

"Sorry, Jim Carroll you are outnumbered on this one"
If I set my ideas around what others think, I'd wear a bell around my neck and find a shearing shed to get sheared regularly
"Absolutely wonderful, beautiful sound."
"Sound" sums it up perfectly - it's not folk singing in any way shape or form
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:16 AM

Songs sung by folk for folk without stupid rules, now where are my Lord Sutch folk singles!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:18 AM

Un cancionito de folklore!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:03 AM

It must be admitted that the three performers put forward here have a "special" quality about them which I find hard to define, but most people feel it when they hear it. There is a place for the traditional interpretation, but I suppose it could be confined to the "academic" section of music. The music of the people must move with the times, yet retain links with the basic emotions of humanity....that is where the quality of performance comes in, the ability to connect with present and future generations.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:24 AM

"Your woman 'performs' the song - folk songs demand interpretation by their very existence".   She is unfortunately not "my woman" and her name is Marie Campbell she has been singing traditional songs for years and probably knows as much about the tradition as you do.
You say that folk songs require interpretation, well Marie puts her own interpretation on "The Lea Rig" and has done so with quite a few Burns songs in the last few years.....In my opinion her interpretation enhances the song, but I will admit that not everyone could pull it off.
If folk is to survive in mainstream music, it must adapt to change in society.

Subject: RE: quality about them which I find ha- Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:32 AM

"quality about them which I find hard to define, "Hope for folk Music"
But you raised it in the context of "The hope for folk music" and described this lady as "embodying the ethos of folk Music"
You've described it - that's the problem
It bears on relationship to any previous form of folk musicAt least Doran is a caricature of what has replaced folk in the minds of some of the remaining few on the scene
Once you do that you have to justify your claim with examples
You don't need to "feel folk song when you here it" - it's impossible to put feelings into words
Folk has a soecific meaning related to a specific section of society - "traditional" describes the priocess by which the sons were made, remade, adapted and absorbed into the 'folk communities'
THere's nothing "rulish" or "stupid" in that - it's how we continue to communicate with each other (when we do)

I don't like what Gachan does with his sogs but I don't have too much trouble undersyanding the words
Your "sassenach" is showing miss
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:35 AM

Many of the latest generation of young performers seem to me to be producing material as far from "folk" as the settings by Sharp, Vaughan Williams, Butterworth or Britten. Excellent music but not always to my taste. However if it encourages some people to look deeper into the topic that is excellent.

If the "folk" label hadn't been applied to some of the commercial material that I enjoyed in the 60s I would never have been tempted to visit a thing called a "folk club" which has had me hooked on pretty hard core English trad ever since.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:37 AM

And then we move to electric folk and Ashley Hutching's masterpiece with Shirley Collins which would be nothing without the carefully arranged instrumentation!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:37 AM

Her name is Mairi Campbell.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:38 AM

I find it rather disappointing that other members haven't given aview on this discussion, as it is quite important regarding the future of the music and the discussion is being conducted without it becoming too "academic"

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:46 AM

Sorry Peter and Kenny I'm a little less disappointed now :o)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:53 AM

More used to the singing of this song by Ian Bruce, Eilidh Grant and "The Sangsters", so I am afraid that Marie Campbell's rendition of "The Lea Rig" barely even qualifies as singing in my mind, listening to her performance was like listening to an old and dear friend being tortured purely for the hell of it.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:08 AM

I very much enjoyed it - shame about the trousers though!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:16 AM

Don't forget, posts further up are comparing Jon's performance sound balance, which was webcast live from his bedroom using one mic, with balanced studio recordings. Can you really do that in all honesty? It's a bit like comparing the pope to johnny jihadi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:31 AM

"However if it encourages some people to look deeper into the topic that is excellent."
I go along with you to a point Peter, but if a newbie enters a scene that can't or refuses to discus what the term is and brushes it aside as "stupid rules", it is difficult to see how they are going to move on
My concept of 'folk' originally was Miss Whatist hammering 'Cherry Ripe' out on the upright in school
I've been gathering all the old scripts of talks Pat and I have given over the years - I was boggled they number over fify, maily to schools, colleges and universities
I don't remember us agreeing to plan it but I realised that we chose what we talked about and our examples based on who we were talking to
I remember the quality being sometimes varied, but I can never remember on that didn't work at some level
Recently I've been working on Irish Child ballads - a fairly new field in Ireland
I don't attempt to define a ballad to someone unfamiliar - much easier to employ Jean Richies suggestion and ask them "Do you know Barbara Allen"?" - most people have heard it - it's a great 'in' to the subject
Same with folk song in general - you have to do it in stages
Ireland is easy ans it has an extremely rich and far more recent tradition and many of the songs represent a 'national pride' in what is actually a new nation.
Travellers are the same - they are embracing many of their songs as part of their identity and their future becomes more precarious
These songs are part of our existence, national and cultural
You don't have to convince the people of that - presented the right way, they'll accept them as entertainment
You need to convince the art organisations who hold control the purse string, or the education organisation, or the 'arty' side of the media
Remember the wonderful Bert Lloyd Programmes the Beeb used to broadcast, or the amount of coverage fiven to folk on programmes like 'Folk on Two'?
You really are not going to win that back if you water down your product
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:38 AM

We'll agree to disagree then.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:42 AM

Didn't finish - and I'm sure what you are doing is fine and worthwhile, but please allow others to describe as folk music as they see fit, and to enjoy it played in a way that is most pleasing to their ears.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:09 AM

"but please allow others to describe as folk music as they see fit, "
Only if you'll let me call a cabbage a potato
Don't be silly Bozo - things are called what they are called for a reason - mainly so we can talk about that and understand what each of us means
We lost a bloody good folk scene when that stopped happening
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: weerover
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:23 AM

Wasn't crazy about the rendition of "The Lea-rig", one of my late father's (and my) favourite songs. Also, she gets a word wrong in the first line ("evening" should be "eastern"), maybe more similar errors but didn't listen analytically.

The term "traditional" usually refer to unknown authorship: this is definitely by Robert Burns.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:29 AM

"The term "traditional" usually refer to unknown authorship: this is definitely by Robert Burns. "

I can't be arsed to go digging back through this thread to see what you are referring to but depending on context "traditional" can either refer to authorship, community transmission or (possibly) style of performance.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:32 AM

"Remember the wonderful Bert Lloyd Programmes the Beeb used to broadcast, or the amount of coverage fiven to folk on programmes like 'Folk on Two'?"

Trouble is that folk is out of the ghetto and is being taken seriously by the Beeb so it turns up without warning in the middle of the playlist.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: weerover
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:40 AM

GUEST, I take your point, I was merely correcting akenaton's earlier comment, "the words are traditional". A minor point you may think, and I don't remember ever seeing much in his/her many posts to take issue with, just putting the record straight.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:46 AM

Jim, you're sounding like a parody of yourself. Grumpy old men and traditional music, against the talented up-coming artists they try to destroy.
The problem is that, while the old recorded stuff is there, the new stuff changes. Just try to see it as something different from what went before. You can rail against new music, but I believe you'll wear yourself out eventually, and you won't be much fun to have at parties.

People have not finished their personal evolution the first time they come to our notice. "Hope for folk music" is about the futre. This guy isn't done, yet. I keep looking for reviews of Carthy from back in the day. Maybe he got panned by geezers*. Maybe he had more time to develop before coming to notice. Maybe these days, we're too enamored of prodigies.


*I'm using this to refer to attitude, not age.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:59 AM

Yes weerover, You're right enough, but although I misspoke my intentions were good......very nice to see you here, if I remember correctly we had some good rows long ago :o).   Also good to see Observer who's views I always take seriously.....Hope you are both well?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:07 AM

Jim - I wasn't referring to the Scottish song more recently posted as I haven't listened to that - I was commenting on the Jon Doran song I briefly listened to. My point stands - you prefer songs not to be sung with instrumental interludes. I am quite happy, and indeed often prefer, them to be sung with them. My attention span is long enough to accommodate the interludes between the words. It is still a folk song, sung by a folk singer and to my ears a lot more enjoyable and, importantly, engaging, than listening to many unaccompanied songs.

That is my preference - the presentation of the song is neither wrong nor right. It is as equally folk as if it were sung unaccompanied, or indeed if it was in a band arrangement or in an electronica setting.

We all have different tastes in how songs are presented - it doesn't mean that any of us can claim that only their preference is the only truly folk presentation

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:07 AM

Jeri...Marie is no prodigy, she has been singing in the traditional style for years, but is adapting to different tastes and different times without losing the ethos of the songs.
Her popularity is rising among the young musicians here, which must be a good thing in keeping the music alive.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: weerover
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:10 AM

Well as can be expected under the present circumstances, akenaton, same hopes for you.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:14 AM

Ake, I don't know who "Marie" is. I was talking about the subject of the thread.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:30 AM

Jeri, I think Ake's post may refer to Mairi Campbell (note spelling) who is easily found on YouTube and Google.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:55 AM

Thanks, Starship. I saw he posted a link after I replied, but I was trying to stay somewhat on-topic. For the post-hyphen part of the title, anyway.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:57 AM

I went home with the waitress
The way I always do
How was I to know
She was with the Russians, too?

I was gambling in Havana
I took a little risk
Send lawyers, guns and money
Dad, get me out of this!

Now I'm hiding in Honduras
I'm a desperate man
Send lawyers, guns and money
The shit has hit the fan


Folk music!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 11:01 AM

Roland, too.
He actually played the Edmonton Folk Fest before he died. Pretty unexpected (for me, anyway).

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:17 PM

He (Warren Zevon) had played the Calgary Festival a few weeks before the Edmonton FF back in 2002.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:26 PM

I've only recently discovered WZ, he was a great lyricist, but I hope sincerely that he performed this song unaccompanied - preferable (LOL) or with minimum non-intrusive backing like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:39 PM

Bonzo3legs, I think you may be misunderstand the term folk. IMHO, 'Send Lawyers, Guns and Money is just a tad raunchy and rock-us (see what I did there?). Here's one for you to listen to. Now THIS is folk ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYEhir_PRSA

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:45 PM

Well hell, they sure don't make Jews like Jesus any more out there - and I mean that most sincerely folks!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:54 PM

the only purpose of a guitar instrumental in the middle of a narrative ballad is if the singer has forgotten the words, i do not mind a guitar instrumental at the beginning of a song or even at the end, but as far as i am concerned the only people do ti generally speaking is to show off their finger dexterity, it interrupts the flow of the song and that applies to carthy and jones,
mind you a couple of years ago i heard a ballad sung unaccompanied at a festival and half the words were incomprehensible and it went on for ten minutes, when the singer is that badan instrumental on the feckin didgeredoo or the pink oboe would have been welcome

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:58 PM

Everybody has to not like something!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:06 PM

Here is another version of Mary & the Soldier from a young lady with a beautiful high voice and nice guitar technique!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:34 PM

sorry bonzo not as good as jon doran,his vocals were clearer than hers she has a pleasant voice but again the voice should be further forward, this does not require special mikes you just play the instrument quieter and sing louder, that was the sort of mistake i made when i first started accompanyin with concertina. look if you sing acoustically inclubs without mikes you get the bakance right otherwise you dont get rebooked. and with respect i have done some folk clubs over 15 times over the years

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:37 PM

this is a problem for alot of singers that use mikes all the time they do not learn to project their voices, it is all done by the sound engineer

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:43 PM

you see bonzo the difference between you and me is that you are looking for a pleasant sound , i am looking to hear a story sung as a story ,that requires first good diction and second making sure the voice is louder than the the accompanying instrument

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:53 PM

now jim carroll probably wont like this but here is a way of accompanying a ballad so that all the words can be heard and the story is told in a narrative style, this is not perfect, but the basics are right words clear concertina accompanying not dominating the song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:39 PM

Very nice sandman and a few tips picked up on the tune I requested

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:05 PM

Yes if you like that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:12 PM

i do like that sort of thing and so do some others , otherwise i would not have been doing this for fortyfouryears but i might have been an accountant like you, so bonzo you feel free to tell me about your trade and i will discuss mine, which hasinvolved doing gigs for 44years, this is not just about taste but getting certain basics right. there is no pint singning a s9ong if people cannot hear all the words or if your instrument is too dominant in relation to the voice

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:05 PM

Sorry - screwed up the links above - try again :

https://youtu.be/EnSQXNto_qI

https://youtu.be/DibABg7DkWQ

However - wasn't this discussion supposed to be about an up-and-coming singer called Jon Doran ? Might be time to get back to that.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:20 PM

Nice Kenny....but there's a joke in that. When Pentangle started I regarded them as too commercial, a sell out, not really folk!
Are you listening Jim?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:39 PM

kenny yes he has potential, both as a guitarist and as a singer,i thought he had more idea than the girl singing mary and the soldier [she too could be very good in time
presentin an evening in a club is another skill too, that experience helps one to learn.
it is very difficult foe male singer guitarists to make a living on ther folk scene because there are so many of them, and venues are disappearing young people will have to organise their own events ther have been many who have been hailed as the next star lee collinson was one and where is he now. anyway may i wish jon all the best may he enjoy his music and get pleasure from it , it is a wonderful thing to have akill that can lift ones spirits, making a living from it is only a secondary consideration

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:50 PM

A word on criticism - if performers don't like their performances discussed critically they should stay at home and sing to their ribber ducks in the bath - that goes for their followers

Unless of course anyone criticises the great gods of folk music as approved by you, Jim? I cannot listen to more than a few minutes of some source singers but when I dared to mention that I was told in no uncertain terms that if I didn't go into raptures about x, y or z I had no right to comment.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:07 PM

Nice troll, Dave.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:35 AM

so my advice to jon doran is if you find you cannot make a living, it is not a reflection of your musical talent ,it could be one ofthe symptoms of capitalism, over supply of a type, however, cherish your music keep playing, to be able to play music well or have any artistic skill is a fantastic gift, but a gift that requires constant practice

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:56 AM

That I can agree with 100% Sandman, and I wish him luck.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:27 AM

Thank you, Jeri. I do try :-)

Seriously though, apologies to all who saw my comment as trolling. I guess I was just annoyed at seeing the comment that it is ok to criticise artists after having been shouted down for doing so before.

I shall say no more about it.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:58 AM

I like the Mary and the Soldier video BTW and can hear the words fine. I have added it to the "Other videos of interest" on the Mudcat YouTube channel.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:21 AM

the mudcat you tube channel,i thought the purpose of the mudcat you tube channel was for mudcat members to put up videos of themselves, is jon doran a mudcat member?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:23 AM

Not sure how far this will get Dave as you have "Mod on your Side" now (the apple did work then)
Analysing what artists do does id not "criticising' them - it is putting their work into context - every artistic genre should be open to positive and critical comment - most are
What passes for folk now apparent;y isn't - if people "like" someone then they are abpve criticism
There should be no "gods" of folk or any form of art - I'm an atheist in that respect as well
I assume your snide reference is about MacColl - I don't bring his singing into any discussion - I object to the fact that, despite the fact he and others worked on the art and techniques of singing for over a decade and created a theory of how to improve it with exercises and techniques, people would rather discuss political views he hadn't held since 1940 and name-change (even the Robert Zimmerman worshipers)
You won't find a single example of my discussing MacColl's singing - critical or uncritical, anywhere on this form - my concern for MacColl is as an artistic theorist - you are free to prove me wrong, of course
I found to my const not too long ago that to try and discuss this side of MacColl's work runs the risk of suspension

This thread seems to be an example of fanzine at it's most typical - "don't you dare knock my fave singer" - a measure of where the folk scene is going, perhaps
Critisism of the blue-eyed boy elicits only personal abuse, sinking to an agist level even - even at the ageist level, and deleted postings
Ah well, I tried
Keep up with the apples, they seem to be working
JIm

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:47 AM

"Are you listening Jim?"
No- I'm reading Ake
I didn't understand your point
Pentangle were a rock band using folk song (sort of) and like all such artists, they passed their sell-by date and moved on
When that particular product outlived its commercial value it disappeared from the shelves
If you want to find a form of folk experimentation which has become ageless, try Delius of Vaughan Williams or someone as exquisite as GEORGE BUTTERWORTH
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 03:49 AM

I am not sure why you think that either 'Nice troll' is a compliment or why you believe Jeri is acting in her capacity as a moderator, Jim. But, as I said, I shall say no more.

Have a look at the Mudcat YouTube channel here. You will see that we have videos recorded directly by Mudcatters and a playlist for videos mentioned in the forum. I have specifically added ones from Both Ewan MacColl and Walter Pardon. Let me know if there are any others that you have mentioned that you want me to include.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:03 AM

You obviously didn't read the deleted postings Dave - too late now
I have no idea what your UTube thinie maens - I see four artists two of which I have great respect for - Mary was part of my first singers woshop in Manchester a lifetime ago
The point that you have ignored is - at no time have I ever attempted to discuss any singer at a fanzine level - MacColl particularly
I woud love to see a critical discussion of Ewan's singing - it certainly needs discussing
Im my brass youth I discussed it with him personally, commenting of his vibrato- he explained he had worked hard to suppress it for most of singing life - a response I would have expected from a serious artit (unlike the "howe dare you criticise my singing" crap I have had to become used to
As I said - y only concern in discussing Ewan is about his singing theories
Christ knows, the scene could do with some discussion on that subject
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:27 AM

I woud love to see a critical discussion of Ewan's singing

Your wish is my command.

Critical discussion of Ewan's singing

Now maybe this thread can be about Jon Doran!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:35 AM

Actually, the joke was on me Jim, I opposed Pentangle for being "experimental" in the seventies and now I am promoting experiment with the music so that it might appeal a new generation.
Jim I am not afraid to examine my views from time to time and even point out where I have been inconsistent or overly dictatorial....perhaps It would be a good thing if you were to consider doing the same.
You have Jeri wrong I think, I am aware of Dave's reputation amongst the mods.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 05:02 AM

"It would be a good thing if you were to consider doing the same."
Why ?
There are few people who are overbearing and dictatorial on this forum - I never noticed you being one and I don't consider myseelf as having te same problem - it's the fiorst time I've encountered the accusation
I have controversial views which I am prepared to argue for - the fact that I put them up for argument is the opposite to being dictatorial - dictators delete postings and close threads when tay don't like arguments - tat's dictatorial
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 20 - 05:18 AM

i agree with Jim, I do not see the necessity for long guitar instrumentals in the middle of a narrative ballad,it interrupts the flow of the story would you expect eddie lenihane the storyteller to go off on a didgereedoo in the middle of one of his stories just to show how good he was with circular breathing, or how good he was with the didge
i provided a video of nic dow someone who has the guitar technique to do so but understands that the song and the singing of it comes first.
jon doran did not sing mary and the soldier that was sung by a girl whose diction was poorer than jon dorans. I do not mind a guitar instrumental at the beginning of a story song if the performer wants to show off his instrumental ability, but really if you want to do that play an instrumental.

Subject: RE: Midsomer Murders does Folk Music
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 18 May 20 - 06:00 AM

Mary and the Soldier

I can't let mention of Mary and the Soldier pass without posting this video. It's a fresh now as it was in 1977!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 20 - 08:17 AM

He did Dick. Here it is. Just Jon singing and accompanying himself on bazouki.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 08:21 AM

Same song - same problems as far as I can see
The singer plays mandolin and accompanies it with a song
Not what traditional singing is about - but far too common
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: gillymor
Date: 18 May 20 - 08:48 AM

Doran's version linked by DtG,and someone else further down the page, seems to be a better recording and much better balanced than the one linked in the OP. Great singers like Brady, Gaughan, Irvine etc. who are also fine instrumentalists can very effectively bring the accompaniment up front and I think this young man also has that ability. I'm certainly borrowing as much as I can from his zouk arrangement.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:33 PM

henryp - "I can't let mention of Mary and the Soldier pass without posting this video. It's a fresh now as it was in 1977!"

Sorry, he was wearing glasses which detracts from the plain face appearance required from trad singers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:04 PM

Just a note : Jon Doran is still studying, and was a finalist in last year's BBC Young Folk Awards so I assume he's under 21. Some of the videos shared above are from 2018, meaning he was probably 18-19 at the time. One of the things that's so good about traditional music is that, unlike popular music, you can carry on get better unto your 80s as you accumulate life experience. Cut him some slack!

Constructive criticism is great, but when it's asked for and it's offered in the right way. He's a barely adult young man, singing traditional music and studying it seriously so he can get better. What more do you want of him? Don't rubbish him for not being as good as the pillars of either the revival, or the old singers who had 50 years more life experience when they were recorded, just yet.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:15 PM

"Cut him some slack!"
That would be patronising
If he's told he's making a good job of olk songs and he isn't, it's no good to him if people pretend he is
He has a good voice and he is a skillful instrumentalist - the problem for me is that's he's not combining those skills to perform his chosen type of songs
I'd be lying to pretend he was
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 18 May 20 - 02:48 PM

Have to disagree with you Jim. This young man is a fine fiddle player,guitarist, bouzouki player and singer of traditional songs.In the style of revivalist singers from the 1970s like Dave Burland, Tony Rose Nic Jones and other near do wells. It's just a pity he's not a 73 year old unaccompanied singer but he's making the best of a bad job. I do think you're over the top on this one Jim.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:26 PM

“Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.” (Miles Kington)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 18 May 20 - 04:52 PM

Anyone told Heston Blumenthal that.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 May 20 - 05:04 PM

And it's nice to see Martin Carthy with blue Telecaster standing in from of Fender amp almost as tall as him!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: gillymor
Date: 18 May 20 - 05:17 PM

Martin shredding w/ Steeleye Span

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:29 AM

"It's just a pity he's not a 73 year old unaccompanied singer"
Another couple of red herrings Keith - I have no objections tyo young singers - I'm surrounded by a rapidly growing number of then at present and am loving every minute of it
Up to leaving London I sand all the time with an accompanist, I tried to learn the guitar and and concertina for years and gave up because I found it to difficult
This is yet one of those invented arguments to avoid the point I am making - my reservations of what this and far too many other singers do is allow the accompaniment to dominate the song rather than provide a matrix for the singer to re-create it - as best, the instrument distracts from the narrative making the words superfluous to the performance - it becomes a skillfully played piece of music with words doing something else in the background - not telling a story anyway
Examine the way the words are broken up and the punctuation is abandoned - no traditional singer would do that - no storyteller would either
It may be good musicianship but it is far from a good example of the singing of a folk song
We've had everything here, from musical skills you "give the oyng feller a chance"
Very little about the art of folk song and how the artist approached it
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:12 AM

There is hope for folk music as long as [ when the current crisis is over ] people are going out to pubs to have a few beers and sing and play just for the love of the music and singing and playing together.

Hopefully it won't be too long now.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 07:08 AM

But don't forget folk music is also performed in theatres, art centres, folk festivals even Labour Clubs (Croydon FC) to name but few!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 19 May 20 - 07:11 AM

Glad to see the Paul Brady clip come up, the one in which he sings with only his guitar for accompaniment. When I watched that on Youtube the "Next Up" on the list was the one I originally referred to where he sings, plays guitar and is accompanied by Andy Irvine [harmonica and mandolin] and someone playing bazouki. The difference in timings for these recordings is one year and the improvement is noticeable particularly in regard to the balance in performance between Paul Brady's voice and his guitar and the other instruments - nobody trying to overplay anyone else and all respecting the importance of the lyrics [Could probably be down to who was running the sound desk that night].

As far as extended instrumental intros/lead-ins and full verse instrumental breaks I would venture, yes they can be overdone but since the folk revival of the 50s/60s they do serve an extremely important function in allowing songs to be passed on aurally.

What first attracts me to a song is the melody - on hearing it I either like it, or I don't. That seals the songs fate irrespective of subject or lyrics - I've got to enjoy singing it and that is governed by melody.

Good melody, then prompts me to concentrate and really listen to the words and subject of the song. If the song with a good melody tells a story then I will take the trouble and put the effort into learning it without prompts, word cribs, smart phone, i-pad or tablet.

I sing almost everything I do unaccompanied and the best aid to getting the tune of a new song fixed in my head is to listen to a version of it that DOES have an extended lead-in and DOES HAVE an instrumental break in the middle of it.

Don't think that was required way, way back in the day as people didn't move around as much, they relied upon one another for entertainment and within any given company people were known for "their party pieces" so the assembled company heard the same material time and time again - That is how they got to know the songs, learn them and subsequently pass them on.

Great and extremely valid points expressed above by GUEST JM and GUEST Keith Price - I agree completely and wish Jon Doran all the success in the world, I would certainly pay to see him sing and perform gladly, which in my order of things puts this young man well ahead of quite a number of big names currently on the "folk scene".

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 19 May 20 - 07:21 AM

Jim I wonder what you make of Ye Vagabonds,Lankum or Daoirí Farrell. How much of Jon Doran's music have you heard ? You were quick to defend Ewan MacColl ( rightly so ) and his 1957 recording, on another thread as "hardly a fair example of a singer who was still finding his feet " I could understand it if you argued all trad folk song should be unaccompanied. If the accompaniment shouldn't be noticed why have it at all.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 10:15 AM

"Lankum"
We've seen Lankum live and spoken to at least one of them - the group summed themselves up in an interview they gave to The Irish Times "We aim to produce a sound"
I accept that - it's not what folk or any type of song should be about
Doran is new to me - if you are suggesting what has been put up as good folksinging, I would be interested to here it
This is the flaw fallacy that you have to ge there to know how good these people are - if you tell me they are, I beg to differ
I suggest you dig around some of the recordings made around the time Ewan recorded the Riverside album - everybody was "finding their feet" then
Ewan once told me that wne he started singing long ballads in clubs their length worried him
When he sang his longest, 'Gil Morris', he would break it up in two halves - one before the interval, the other in the second half
He stopped when an audience member said to him; "For fecks sake will you ever sing that ballad in one go - it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop"
All of them were experimenting - what songs, the length of songs, accompaniments, introductions.... all experimental
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 May 20 - 10:30 AM

All I can say is thanks to the original poster for sharing. I've just watched the whole 2 hours and thoroughly enjoyed it - especially the first performer Jon Doran. I really don't get the detractors - though I know in the end it is all down to personal taste. I thought both his singing and guitar playing were very good. I didn't think the guitar arrangement got in the way of anything and I could make out every word with no problem. And he's only going to get better with the years.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 10:55 AM

"we aim to produce a sound" - "it's not what folk or any type of song should be about"

I couldn't possibly comment - try telling that to Steve Knightley or Phil Beer!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 10:56 AM

There are a further 5 lots of 2 hours on youtube from that festival for your enjoyment!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:09 AM

"I really don't get the detractors"
Trt reading what they say - I've repeated dozens of times it doesn't matter what people like or dislike - it's how it stands up as folk song
Saying that the singing and playing is good is repeating what I have already said several times - it's not a good performance of a folk song - I've said that seveal times too
"Steve Knightley or Phil Beer"
THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT FOR ME
TWICE
Not much sign of a Southamplton or West Country accent there - just phony Mid-Atlanticese - no narrative ither - just drowned out words
If you "can'rt comment", probably best not to
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 May 20 - 11:14 AM

In your opinion! Obviously plenty of others who disagree.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:05 PM

" Good folksinging " Jeez Jim you're sounding more like a Comhaltas adjudicator every day.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:17 PM

He's unbelievable - are shrinks taking new patients in lockdown??

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:18 PM

That first link of Jim's is a stunning song by Steve and brings up a very valid point. There are no source singers to tell us today's events. There is no Ewan MacColl writing songs about Coronavirus. So what are we left with? Young people like Jon and not so young ones like Steve! Folk song should not be pickled or preserved. It should live and be relevent to people today. It should mean something and while I fully agree that the source singers and revival writers like MacColl have left us a lot to be grateful for, the genre must progress into todays world as well as link to the past. The Steve Knighley's and Richard Thompsons and Janice Ians and Billy Braggs of this world do that. As does Jon Doran!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:26 PM

I couldn't possibly comment - try telling that to Steve Knightley or Phil Beer.
I would have no hesitation if they were courteous enough to ask me, it is another example of the commrecial direction of the uk folk revival, and the influence of popculture sound is more important than message . leon rosselson however is a songwtriter with a message, ithink we need more leons and less knightley and boer

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:32 PM

I must confess that I had not heard the name of Jon Doran before reading this thread and the only song that I have heard is his take on Mary & The Soldier on Youtube. On this evidence alone, I would suggest that this young man, as he develops, will have a great deal to offer the folk revival.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:48 PM

"There are no source singers to tell us today's events."
Not since MacColl you mean ? - I'd hate to think that was true
I suppose you could grudgingly grant Peggy British citizenship
What on earth are you saying Dave ?
I remember that interesting on the History of Topic where somebody said "Ewan MacColl doesn't approve of contemporary songs" - a visitor from the Planet Zog, no doubt
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:55 PM

You are right Vic. Jim knows the folk scene in his native country is looking more like pensioner pop than anything he or I would reconise as folk music and he has a go at the likes of Jon Doran and others. I'm baffled.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:57 PM

keith let me explain jim believes that songs accompaniment should be accompaniment, that is very simple

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:58 PM

Let's for instance say I'm a young folk singer,
just out of A level Performing Arts, or Folk University..

Jim could outline all he'd want me to aspire to do and be as a real trad folk singer..
..and I'd might go like "Nah.. don't want to.."..


But that'd only be if I knew or cared that mudcat existed...

Or maybe one of my mate's grandad might be a member,
and mentioned that some geezer Jim was going on about me..

Then maybe I could go like..

"Is mudat like SAGA youtube, can I get thumbs ups and subscribers, and get monetised on there...???

..no.. what.. it's really old fashioned plain text pages with hardly any viewer footfall..
Oh well, **** that, not bothered then.."...

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:00 PM

In my view Steve Knightley is one of the finest folk song writers of the current era. His songs tell stories, make political comment, engage with significant audiences. The beauty and passion of some of the songs make me cry - especially when experienced live with people joining in on the choruses.

I like his voice too and the Show of Hands arrangements, and sound quality, in concert are second to none. The music supports and enhances the lyrics

Fortunately many people who are passionate about folk music think the same.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:07 PM

Not since MacColl you mean ?

You have said yourself, Jim, MacColl is not a source singer and does not do folk songs. No, what I mean is that there are events currently happening that deserve to have songs written and sung about them. This cannot be be done by the deceased so it has to be done by live songwriters like the ones I mentioned. Whether you like them or not does not matter. They are all we have to keep us updated.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:38 PM

I'm currently re-listening to anti thatcher protest songs
by British inner city reggae artists from the late 70s/early 80s...

..the last era [punk,ska,reggae] of genuine reality based underclass protest singing...???

In 2020, is it now asking too much of a new generation of predominantly middle class,
probably private schooled educated, folk singers,
that they can be a credible voice of working class protest and resistance...???

How can they not be mere role players, writing songs based on news headlines
and uni politics courses...

Still, anything's better than nothing I suppose;
and probably not that different to middle class folk protest singers of the 1960s revival...

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 19 May 20 - 02:54 PM

pfr - if you want genuine working class folk song check out Joe Solo if you haven't already

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:14 PM

"not that different to middle class folk protest singers of the 1960s revival..."
I really never knew any of them Rag - unless you count working class lads who managed to pass a few exams "middle Class"
I wore my feet to the bone and sang myself hoarse protesting - then went back to rewiring houses on Monday

"MacColl is not a source singer and does not do folk songs."
I said he didn't write folk songs - correction - he said that
"This cannot be be done by the deceased so it has to be done by live songwriters"
True - as pegy Seeger is still demonstrating
If these songs are to ahve an impact thet neees to come without the muical soup obscuring the message with noise and distraction - and in a narrative form that people are able to follow - the two put up don't do this - you are given words obscured by over-loud and distracting accompaniment
"They are all we have to keep us updated."
So Ed Pickford or Jim McLean or Jack warshaw or Sandra Kerr..... or all those other fine songwriters I remember have all popped their clogs - shit - and I never received a mass-card
"Whether you like them or not does not matter."
You are determined to ignore what I say, aren't you - it has nothing whatever to do with me liking anything
We are discussing this performer as "the Hope for folk music" - what he is doing may be skilful but it has sfa to do with folk song of any kind
I wish to Christ some pop performers wud make followable songs commenting on what's happening in the world instead of sneering at fund-raisers like Geldof for raising money for good causes
Doran is neither a protest singer nor an example of folk singing

"Jim knows the folk scene in his native country is looking more like pensioner pop"
Not sure where you think my native country is - I'm from Liverpool, though I leve in Ireland
I never mentioned pensioner-pop - I said the English scene had abandoned the older songs for the disposable pop-pap - is that what you mean by "pensioner-pop" ?
Sorry - you're not making sense

"finest folk song writers of the current era"
Nobody writes folk songs - they have to win their spurs by being taken up and processed by the people then passed on again - ad infinitum, before they earn the title 'folk' - that's what the term "folk" and "tradition" mean - it 's why the most prolific and skilful songwriter using traditional forms vehemently denied writing folk songs

Our folk scene was established on a widely recognised and respected type of song - that's why it was called the folk scene
Stop concentrating on that and you end up wandering round like the Hari Krisnas canting "I don't know what folk means any more"
The Irish song and music tradition has a healthy three generation future to look farward tio because it knows what its music is, can perform it, talk and write about in and over the last few years, begin to teach it without having to wait for the music industry to decide that they might be a few million to be made out of it
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:26 PM

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Vic Smith - PM
Date: 19 May 20 - 12:32 PM

I must confess that I had not heard the name of Jon Doran before reading this thread and the only song that I have heard is his take on Mary & The Soldier on Youtube. On this evidence alone, I would suggest that this young man, as he develops, will have a great deal to offer the folk revival. 0possibly depends on how he develops
now if he listens to performers and learns from the likes of martyn wyndham read and nic dow,yes he probably will have a lot to offer

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 03:27 PM

We do not agree with you Jim Carroll, so there it is.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:15 PM

yes bonzo that is because you are listening out for a pleasant sound , that is why you prefer that which you do and you dismiss great storytelling singers like jeannie robertson, you like singers who play guitars and oput in instrumentals, you dismissed jeanie robertson as alright if you like that sort of thing, in my opinion your a philistine

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:27 PM

I agree with Jim on a lot of important things.
Far more than most other mudcatters..

Except for our different opinions on modern approaches to folk music..
.. and these disagreements between me and Jim are I hope mostly amicable and good humoured...

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 04:31 PM

the two put up don't do this

Only in your opinion. I can hear every word of the very clearly stated message in both songs. I like Steve's better but that is purely personal taste. As to distractions. I said some time before, I can only listen to a short spell of some of the source singers. I find a song about something not relevant to me performed by someone who I have to work at listen too pretty distracting in itself.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:16 PM

dave lumps all source singers together another example ofhis ignorance as silly as lumping all revival singers.
would anyone say i can only listen to a short spell of revival singers. is just daft marty wyndham read is very different from ewan macColl and very different from steve turner,
so lets take a few differing source singers boblewis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruMynZxWtgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxIJ1SMVxK8 sam larner very different
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3JdFnUaeRAbob roberts

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:21 PM

dave you simply dont know what you are on about, three different source singers and yet you let your prejudices get in the way. i dont like surce singers, it remindsme of a child who says i dont like greens regardless of whether its a cabbage or spinach or broccoli or, what person says i dont likr revival singers when you have maccoll jez lowe steve turner nic dow brian peters, all completely different. youare just unbelievable

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:23 PM

i mean its as daft as saying i dont like blues singers john hurt different from robert johnson different from lead belly

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:32 PM

Hope for folk music in Scotland :
https://youtu.be/Lkug80HDQho

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:35 PM

https://youtu.be/EvpwQSrlVgc

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 May 20 - 05:48 PM

My statement. I can only listen to a short spell of some of the source singers Please note the word "some".

Dick's conclusions. dave lumps all source singers together

Need I supply a better example of false logic?

Dick. There are some source singers I can listen to and some I cannot. Just As there are some revival singers, some pop groups and even some Mudcatters that I have all the time in the world for and some who I would not piss on if they were on fire.

Now, would you care to come back, maybe in the morning after a good sleep, and tell me where I lumped anything or anyone together? I am simply saying that there are SOME source singers who I find just as unlistenable as Jim finds Jon Doran or Steve Knightley.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:30 PM

What Mr Carroll ignores is that the worst thing you can do to a song is not sing it. There are no rules as to how a song should be sung, for me it is preferable with electric guitars!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: gillymor
Date: 19 May 20 - 06:35 PM

Thanks for the links, kenny, I enjoyed listening to those two women, particularly Siobhan Miller. Btw, I watched some of their other vids and they both do well singing with with backup musicians also.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 19 May 20 - 07:53 PM

I'm starting to feel like if someone started a thread about how lovely the sky was, people would divide into their factions and go at it hammer and tongs over whether it was baby blue or cerulean, and that it isn't all that great unless there are some fluffy white clouds in it by the end of the day.

ANYthing to fight about. We're living in a parody.
How can anybody expect to have a conversation?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:21 AM

I hope the new rules about personal attacks apply to all threads, Jeri. In which case the fighting could be quite easily curtailed.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:38 AM

What Mr Carroll ignores is that the worst thing youh can do to a song is not sing it.
ha ha a statement made by martin carthy. that is about as daft as saying thatthe worst thing you can do to a poem is not to write it,tell that to mcgonasgle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXWbEW4OvW0my apologies to the gnome

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:46 AM

"Only in your opinion"
I thought about this a lot last night and something has struck my about your persistent and sometimes rather savage dismissals of my arguments Dave - you really do have a major problem - you don't like unaccompanied singing - you have said on numerous occasions that it bores you
We are talking about folk song (in Doran's case, what his over-accompaniment does to it)
Like it or not - the English, Irish and Scots traditions are unaccompanied ones and have been throughout their existence, as far as we know (Bede suggested a harp-accompanied one back in the 9th century, but that was a long, long time ago)
If you don't like or can't listen to unaccompanied singing, you cannot begin to understand British and Irish folk song - the voice is the very essence of our folk singing
That doesn't bar instrumentation, on the contrary - a sensitive accompaniment can be an asset, though never essential - the words alone have carried our folk songs for long enough to show that - our unaccompanied oral singing tradition goes back at least 1,000 years

Our songs are stories, emotions and aspirations often expressed in beautiful vernacular language that sometimes challenges the artistry of our greatest poets and playwrights - that was the first thing that struck many of us when we first encountered them
If you are going to add accompaniment to our songs then it has to be done as an addition - an aid to the communication of the words - not the distraction it all too often is
Now we have singers who follow their accompaniment rather than allowing the song to say what it has to say in simple narrative
You can see that in the phrasing of singers like Doran, Carthy and many others - the words become broken up, the narrative becomes gappy, punctuation is abandoned so that the songs no logner make narrative sense
Go though the songs and you can count where this happens
I think it was Marin Carthy I first heard doing this totally unnecessary musical interlude thingy where the narrative actually screeches to a halt to make room for an admittedly skilful but totally unnecessary musical interlude - even The Watersons didn't do that sort of thing - neither did The Coppers, who they took a great deal of inspiration from
The early revival, in my experience, understood the importance of narrative and the place of instruments, when they were used - you had the plinky plonk of the singing pullovers folk boom, but by and large, you were not distracted from the words

Over-instrumentation is, I believe, largely an English affectation - I find most Scots singers I hear (I admit I haven't hear too many of late) are proud of their poetic songs and ballads and the beautiful vernacular language adds to their power
The Irish tradition is slightly different in that many of the songs are lyrical rather than narrative, but that has led to a use of a high level of vocal ornamentation rather than instruments
Our source singers sang unaccompanied because they chose to, not because they were incapable of playing instruments - many of them were musicians too - especially in Ireland

What it boils down to is, if instruments are going to be used, they have to 'learn their place' in the order of things - they are there to accompany words and not the other way around, which has become all too often the case, a good accompaniment, for me, is one you don't notice until it stops (or maybe when it goes wrong)
As I say, if you don't like or understand unaccompanied folk songs you will never understand what the tradition is about

"How can anybody expect to have a conversation......?"
Is it really the job of a moderator to decide the nature and direction of a discussion Jeri ? hat's a new concept on me
Can I respectfully suggest that, if you can't keep up with the discussion then you leave it to those who can
"Old fogey" Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:51 AM

" the worst thing youh can do to a song is not sing it."
Not true - the worst thing you can do to a folk song is to denigrate it by singing it badly
Folk songs will continue to exist in print as long as we have the wherewithal to preserve them - bad singing can destroy the credibility of a very important genre of song as a performed art and condemn it to a five locked away in a cupboard
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:40 AM

you don't like unaccompanied singing - you have said on numerous occasions that it bores you

Not true, Jim. I sing unaccompanied myself. I like some unaccompanied singing just as I dislike some accompanied folk songs. What I have said is that I dislike is having to work at enjoying music. Life is full of songs I can enjoy without effort and is too short to waste time making myself listen to something I don't 'get' first time round. If that makes me shallow, so be it.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:09 AM

Well unaccompanied singing by a single person bores me to tears, although Sandy Denny was OK to my ears.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:18 AM

I've just listened to the Jon Doran set in full (got fed up of the repetitive news programmes!)

I think he shows much promise. A pleasant voice and accomplished guitar etc player. I had no problems following the songs. The instrumental element was well judged in my opinion. My only comment would be that the instrument was too loud compared to the voice but this is a fairly common issue with live streamed gigs - understandably as I am sure it is difficult to get the balance right though some manage it.

I would certainly pay to go to see him at a club.

By the way it is well worth watching the rest of the CCC Festival. I discovered a number of new singers to me - most notably Jen Butterfield. The highlight of what I have seen so far was the set by Calan-ish which was absolutely tremendous

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 04:36 AM

"I like some unaccompanied singing just as I dislike some accompanied folk songs"
Me too - not what you've said before I think
Doesn't matter here anyway - it's been said enough by others
If life is too short not to bother with things you don't get first time round - you've missed out on a hall of a lot of good things - you have my sympathy - no wonder you like Ed Sheeran
Good things stretch and make demands on you and you end up growing in the process
"Well unaccompanied singing by a single person bores me to tears"
You're in good company
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:02 AM

i agree with you jim, actually dave the gnome might improve in my opinion his unaccompanied singning if he listened to some others.he would improve his concertina playing by listening to brian peters
i believe my singing has got better from listening to other unaccompanied singers
life and leaning a craft such as music or singing it is inmperative to listen. when i listen to irish music i select one player above all others that i wish to learn from that is seamus creagh, with singing i choose a number of different unaccompanied singers . the statement that carthy made about not singng a song etc[probably taken out of context],is absolute bollocks.
it was bonzo 3 legs who dismissed jeannie robertson, but dave, has given me the impression with his remarks about some source singers. he has stated that one of his favourite artists is a humorous guitarist songwriter,
bonzo 3 legs is a big fan of nic jones.my conclusion is that dave will listen to words
bonzo is after a good guitrist and -pleasant sound.
it is importasnt if one wants to improve either at singing or instrument playing dave the gnome wants it easy, he does not want to have to work at music or work at listening [same thing really. his type are the type that prefer strauss to beethoven].
dave s attitude is only a step away from those floorsingers who cannot be bothered to learn the words of a song,because it involves work or effort, the sort of people that have put some people off going to folk clubs

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:04 AM

Folk song is like Shakespeare, Dickens, Classical music good art - and wverything else important to our undersatand of the human condition - all needs to be met half-way
The creators whoever they were have done theitr bit by working to gice us something worth having - we should have the decency to return the favour
To treat 'the vocce of the People as you would treat disposable pop music is a betrayal of the People who made it and of what they made it for
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:12 AM

I find the same is true of most things, Jim. Like everyone on here, I have a limited number of years left. Time is the most precious commodity we have. If I spend 10 minutes listening to something I cannot get into do I spend another 2 hours trying to understand it? Or do I move on and find something I can relate to them spend the next 2 hours enjoying myself? You may chose the former and, eventually, get many more hours pleasure out of it. I would rather move on. My approach is no better or worse than yours. We just have different characters.

How come you are not willing to spend a couple of hours trying to get into the music you don't like? I could use your argument about missing out on a lot of good stuff by your summary dismissal of anything by Steve Knightley and Phil Beer. Even Ed Sheeran :-) But the thread is not about them.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:13 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_wcP25wsrE to sing like this requires effort dave lkiewise to play guitar like jon doran requires effort. talent dave is no use without effort

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:35 AM

There was a CD by an English folk artist s few years back, I forget who, but he was backed by the best in Nashville - wonderful pedal steel the lot, and it was a great album! Try listening to The Ride, a lockdown song in progress by Steve Knightly - trad very much in the making!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 05:53 AM

So let's put things in perspective shall we Jim Carroll, there are currently many people in hospital suffering with covid-19 and more, in particular my cancer patient sister is in Watford Hospital today to have an endoscopy to put a stent in her oesophagus to enable her to swallow. She can neither eat nor drink. Last time they tried this procedure it was too painful for her.

The way folk music is performed REALLY DOES NOT MATTER ONE BIT.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:05 AM

talent dave is no use without effort

Absolutely, Dick, but that is not what we are talking about. I may put hours of practice into singing or playing something but I am not prepared to spend hours of my precious time to try and get into something I cannot relate to.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:11 AM

"The way folk music is performed REALLY DOES NOT MATTER ONE BIT."
I'm sorry for your sister's plight, as i am for all those in a similar position
Because of this bloody awful disaster, which some of us believe has been handled criminally and unforgivably badly, far too many others are in a similar, even worse situation
If the way folk music started does not matter, this performer you have vigorously supported matters even less
Life goes in and what was important before will remain important long after this is all over

The spare time we now have on our hands seems an excellent reason for such healthy and thought provoking discussions such as this

Dave
We are all in the same position - why the hell should I try to get into something I don't like whan I have now reached the age when I'm not going to fineish the work we have spent most of our lives doing on teh music we do like?
Why add to our problems - don't be silly
We made a promise to those we collected from that we would not let their songs die - we partly fulfilled that promise when Clare County Library put hundreds of them on line
The next step is to assist the British Library put some more on line - them encourage Limerick Uni to make the Travellers recordings available
Why the **** should I waste what time I have getting to line that come with a sell-by date who will be forgotten by the world when the Musoc Industry devised they are no longer a profitable asset ?
I haven't even managed to read War and Peace yet
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:24 AM

why the hell should I try to get into something I don't like whan I have now reached the age when I'm not going to fineish the work we have spent most of our lives doing on teh music we do like?
Why add to our problems - don't be silly

Spot on, Jim. So, tell me why I should waste my time on something I don't understand and cannot get into. If I like Jon Doran's stuff more than I like that of A.N. Other why should I listen to Mr or Ms Other just because they are "more traditional"?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 May 20 - 06:36 AM

Thank you for your kind words Jim.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 07:35 AM

"I should waste my time on something I don't understand and cannot get into"
As I said friom teh beginning and have repeated elsewhere - this has nothing to do with likes and dislikes - you made the suggestion - not me
It is about the confusing that I can define what I mean by folk song and what and those who call something entirely different "folk" can't
The same would arise if thearte people people began calling Arthur Miller plays "Shakespearean" - it would create the same confusion and conflict it has here
Two different things and may understanding beat your non-definition by a century anf a half
Your attitude has done much to kill of a bloody enjoyable and important music scene - one of the worst crimes has to tear it up by the grass roots and hand it back to the music industry we escaped from
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 07:38 AM

I would rather spend my time on something I enjoy.qute dave the gnome ,like wasting time on mudcat instead of improving your singing technique

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 07:50 AM

your singing is not bad but if you do not mind constructive criticism if you did deep breathing exercises you will improve your voice projectionyour abilty to hold notes for longer plus if you were fitter this would helop from your youtube videos you look overweight,it is my opinion that the fitter you are the better you can sing

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 08:04 AM

I don't want to improve my singing technique, Dick, it would bring me no benefit. I am happy with my mediocre technique. When I worked I was exceptionally good at designing and implementing highly available IT systems. I worked hard at that, enjoyed it and it brought me and my family great benefits. Singing I just do for pleasure. If someone else likes it, that is a bonus. If they do not, tough shit.

I don't find Mudcat a waste of time. Do you?

Jim, sorry, but I can't help liking what I like more than what you like. When I was a folk club organiser I was very aware of what people wanted and I did not just book what I liked. I even booked... Oh, better not go there ;-) Now I am a "civilian" I have no such constraints. I can pick and choose which acts I go to see and I find a good range of acts that I really appreciate in the folk clubs near me. You did not so you moved elsewhere. Good for you.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 08:10 AM

"Jim, sorry, but I can't help liking what I like more than what you like."
And I can't help getting more and more irritated with having to repeat - this has`nothing whatever to do with likes and dislikes - it has to do with the massive damage done to working people's culture in hitacking tits ne and using if for what is basically a commercial product - that's whet it becomes when the aim is to create careers for singers rather promote the music
The songs you have dispaced ahve been centuries in the making and their longevity should be an indication of their importance
Your 'nuffin' to do wiv me guv' doesn't fit in with your tenacity in pusuing your non-definition
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:01 AM

It's a waste of time arguing

Jim has his views on what he considers to be folk music and the rest of us have ours - and despite what he says it is about what he likes and doesn't like as he shows no interest in the plethora of talent keeping the music alive and relevant. In the same way I am not that interested in listening to source singers - there is too much great music around in all genres for that to be something I would want to do. I do respect those who do enjoy listening to them in the same way I respect people who listen to Wagner operas it is just not for me

I'm just very glad that there are so many young people investing their time in performing and writing excellent music in the folk tradition and attracting new audiences. A few years back it looked like it may die out with those of us who have been around a long time. I am very grateful that has not proved to be the case - I'm also glad that lots of people are keeping us in touch with the music through online festivals and streaming of sets. Not the same as being there obviously but a great way to discover artists you have not come across previously

On that theme, the second Folk on Foot Front Room Festival is coming up this weekend with a great line up including Jon Boden

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:21 AM

I liked your point a bit back, Joe, about people going to a classical concert expecting to hear classical music. As you quite rightly said, no they don't. The term classical has changed to encompass not only what was originally classical but also many other works of a similar nature. Out of interest, Wiki has the following passage

The term "classical music" was not used until the early 19th century. People then started talking about classical music in order to praise the great composers such as Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. In the 20th century many different ways of composing were used, including music played by electronic instruments or very modern music using strange sounds (experimental or "avant garde" music), for example the music of John Cage. Some people feel that this kind of music cannot really be described as "classical music".

Interesting to note that the same argument goes on in other fields. Do you have a brother, Jim? :-)

Anyway, bringing it back to folk, I would argue that folk as it was first used is the same as classical when that was first used. Both now encompass both the original meaning and music similar to the original. How being similar is defined is of course subjective. It happened with folk a lot quicker than it happened with classical simply due to advances in mass distribution of the music. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:26 AM

Exactly my point Dave. I think my post was removed as part of collateral damage for going off topic. A shame as I'd put a bit of effort into it though I understand the mods' decision

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:28 AM

DAVE ,The person who did the bookings was, ged todd not you, if you wish to not improve, that is rather sad and bears out something jim has said elsewhere that one of the reasons for folk clubs losing attendance is the attitude of peopkle like you, who are apparantly happy ..in your own words to not improbve mediocrity.
jim was actually saying that the [if i understand him correctly] that the pursuit of a pleasant sound rather than the importance of clarity of lyrics particularly in narrative ballds turns the music into wallpaper music. i would agree with that.
i believe that if people wish to show off their instrumental dexterity they should do it on instrumentals
to be fair to jon doran, his vocals were much clearer than the clip of the girl singer and on listening a second time there was only one word that was not clear. i believe jon doran has lot of potential so does that other singer, but my advice would be to jon to listen to performers like martyn wyndham read who never let the accompaniment dominate the singing, if the performer is doing a narrative ballad do the instrumental at the beginning or the end.the words of a narrative ballad are the most important thing .in an instrumentalvariation of the tune dynamics and feeling are more important than playing at full blast all the time

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:37 AM

"Jim has his views on what he considers to be folk music "
Again - nothing to do with what I think - I ah=ve a century and a half's documented evidence to back up what I know yto be folk music - unless all the century and a half hae been to work a huge con
You can't even scrape up a half decent agreed definition between you
Your non-definition is based on a small and dwindling number of people deciding they want 'folk' to mean something else entirely
I'd be grateful if you'd stop putting it down to me
Thousands left the scene when it ceased to provide what it said it was providing - many my age but some younger, which means those who believe the standing definition of folk songs is the correct one are by far in the majority
Articles continue to be written and exchanged worldwide confirming folk still means folk everywhere other than on the English club scene
Sorry 'bout that
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:37 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO_xmAUU3Sw this someone to be emulated as regards tradtional song in the present uk revival, the concertina could have been a little quieter but a very minor crticism

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:41 AM

finally dave when i last played geds club, last year the standard of floorsingers was high such as gary and vera aspey dave and helen howard nobody who was mediocre

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:44 AM

All the bookings went through Ged, Dick, as it would have caused confusion if all three of us did our own thing. I can assure you though that the bookings were agreed by all of us. I can also assure you that I appreciate the advice even if I don't always take it and I thank you for being honest and constructive. I include the comment on my weight which I take no offence at at all. I am working on that and am down 2 stone on my heaviest. Only 3.5 more to go :-D

It comes down to priorities again. Do I want to spend use my time improving my technique? Yes, but not to the detriment of any one of a host of other priorities. Your priorities are different of course as your musicianship is far more important to you than mine is to me. If I have ever put anyone off returning to a folk club then I apologise for that but I don't think I have. The offer of starting a "How I ruined the folk scene" thread still stands. Just say the word.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:47 AM

You need to go unannounced on a singers night, Dick. Some are a lot better than me. Some are a lot worse. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 20 - 09:51 AM

A mix of paid guests and floorsingers at Swinton

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 10:18 AM

"A mix of paid guests and floorsingers at Swinton"
Mancunians singing blues (I think - couldn't really follow the words) and rtrying to sound like Yanks (and failing miserably)
Always got a good solid and honest performance from M W R
performance

---

Twenty percent of this thread has, over time, been deleted due to personal attacks and off-topic nonsense. This may be an interesting thread to some of you, but it is an example of how several Mudcat old-timers can't keep to the topic, and always have to make threads about themselves. Stop goring each others' oxen and stick to the topic of young folk singers. YOU HAVE EXHAUSTED THE TOPIC OF "WHAT IS FOLK" so set it aside. If you can do that and there is something still to discuss, then this thread is open. For a while, anyway. ----mod

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 20 - 05:23 AM

Since my name has been mentioned a few times I thought I would weigh in briefly.
When you are a young Folk enthusiast, you take your influences from what is available. In my day it was what I heard in my local Folk Club, followed by what I could afford to buy in Dobells' Jazz and Blues shop (which had a superb Folk section). Then I tried to copy what I had heard, and eventually found I couldn't do it and came to my own style.
Now I realise this is more or less what has been said already, some kinder than others in this thread, however I think we should view Jon Doran as work in progress. He will hopefully find his own way. It is easier in this day and age to find good recordings to hear.
The big problem is to get past the massive wall of 'I WANT TO PLAY LIKE THAT!!! I know I had to climb it myself. There were a few people who gave me a foot up that wall, Ewan McColl and his magnificent Song Carrier programmes, were a lightbulb moment, and re-assessing the work of my elders and betters, and reading and listening.
As I draw my pension I can say that I cannot listen to Nic Jones any more. Why? His style is so unique that it's almost like a death sentence to the song. I can listen to Cyril Tawney, Burl Ives (yes there is a lot to learn!) and MWR.
So lets be kind to Jon Doran. Either he will get past the sound to the song or he won't. Me-I'm optimistic, and I never deliberately give offence to anyone least of all fellow music makers. I was given a version of The 'Dark Eyed Gypsy' recorded by the Blackpool Gypsies from Bartley Gorman, Tyson Fury's great Grandfather. Same tune and some verses. I probably would never have found the singers I have recorded if it were not for my local Folk Club, those who sang in it, and being guided in the direction of Lloyd, McColl, and yes Jim Carroll. Lets all keep safe, positive and singing.
Nick Dow

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:13 AM

I'm glad this thread is back. Apart from one of two bits of rancour it has been interesting. Staying with the topic, I disagree with Bonzo on a few things but agree entirely with him here. When you see youngsters like Jon putting the effort in to perform traditional folk music there is indeed hope for folk music. Whether you like his style or how he will develop is immaterial. The point is, as long as he keeps with folk, the music will stay alive. There are many others out there too. Granny's Attic being a prime example. I think Nick mentioned he had done some work with Cohen which is a good thing too if I am right. Old and new in harmony :-)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:49 AM

Yes here we are singing a song from the repertoire of Bert Lloyd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkDXwiU-Ok

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 09:17 AM

Thanks Nick. That was great :-) Where was it?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 09:34 AM

the hope for folk music or the uk folk revival depends on younger people organising events, if they do not then there will be very little future

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 21 May 20 - 09:39 AM

You're 100% right about that, Dick. We've had things collapse because the same people ran it for years, and when, for whatever reason, they stopped, no one took over. There were artists, but no bookings.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 20 - 10:03 AM

It was at the Poppy Folk Club.
A few of the younger performers are organising. Fay Heald and Bryony Griffith spring to mind.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:29 AM

Younger organisers are essential but also a critical mass of younger people as participants and audience.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 12:05 PM

Yes, we do need someone to take over from existing organisers but is that really the most important thing? Surely, unless you have an audience and someone to entertain them, there is little point in organising an event. I presume by organisers we are talking of clubs and festivals. Bear in mind that these are a recent construct and folk music has been going a lot longer than either. As long as people like Jon are performing, they will find an audience with or without formal organisation. After all, did the source singers need clubs and festivals?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 02:48 PM

After all, did the source singers need clubs and festivals?quote
that was why there had to be a uk folk revival , because it virtually died out

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 02:59 PM

But just what had died out, Dick? If there were no folk clubs or festivals prior to, let's say, 1950, then where was folk performed before? I would guess houses and pubs and, if that is the case, then it wasn't so much a revival as a birth. Or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:17 PM

I get a distinct feeling of Deja Vue here.

Folk music is not what I wish it to be, it is not want Dave, Joe, Dick or Jim wishes.

However. What I see and hear week in week out pleases me, for the most part, yes I wish some people wouldn't bother and some people I normally take a trip to the bar or the bogs to avoid. But such is life.

When I first ventured into a folk club over 50 years ago it was very much the same, some performers pleased me some didn't. Many of those people from 50 years ago have now passed on to the great singaround in the sky or have putrefied, which is the reality.

Things do not remain the same. 50 years ago I seldom saw a mandola, mandolin, banjo, accordian or Nicaraguan Nose Flute. Today all manner of instruments abound and I believe have benefited folk music.

Other people will disagree with me but that doesn't mean I'm wrong it only means that they don't agree with me.

I had never heard of Jon Doran until I started reading this thread I am delighted he has shown an interest in the music I love and hope he continue to play and sing. If he can make a few bob along the way good luck to him.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:19 PM

yes, as i understand it you are missing something , it[ what is generally understood to be traditional folk song and dance had to be revived that was why it was called a revival.
as i understand it there were a few isolated areas where people occasionally met in houses but it was virtually dead, in the 1950s[ thanks to Sharp] we used to sing these songs and do country dancing in primary schools.
The English Folk Dance and Song Society was founded in 1932 to preserve, promote and develop the English folk arts, and specifically song, tune and dance.

The organisation was created by the merger of the Folk-Song Society (founded 1898) and the English Folk Dance Society (founded 1911).

Here is a quick recap of some of our major milestones.
1898

Folk-Song Society founded to collect and preserve folk songs and tunes primarily from Britain and Ireland. Its membership included existing researchers Sabine Baring-Gould, Lucy Broadwood and Frank Kidson and many other researchers, academics and musicians.
1903

Cecil Sharp collects his first folk songs in Somerset. The composer Ralph Vaughan Williams starts collecting folk songs.
1911

English Folk Dance Society founded to both collect folk dance including Morris, sword and country dances, and to publish and teach them.
1930

Cecil Sharp House, the first dedicated folk arts centre in the UK, opens in Camden Town, London, as a memorial to Cecil Sharp following his death in 1924.
1932

EFDS and FSS merge to form the English Folk Dance and Song Society. Ralph Vaughan Williams becomes President.
1935

EFDSS hosts the world’s first International Folk Dance Festival in London.
1960
Sidmouth folk festival, starts 1954.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:24 PM

Folk music pre and post internet..

Folk music pre and post covid..

Add both together, then that's core future for keeping folk music alive and healthy...

Any surviving physical pubs, clubs, and festivals will be an added bonus.....

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:33 PM

rThings do not remain the same. 50 years ago I seldom saw a mandola, mandolin, banjo, accordian or Nicaraguan Nose Flute. Today all manner of instruments abound and I believe have benefited folk music. quote
no. i dont disagree, and may i remind people that we[ myself and my ex wife sue ]were one of the first people to introduce the clarinet and the first to use concertina and clarinet together.
,   i have no problem with acompaniment for songs, I prefer the way MWR and Nic Dow use it to others[ nic jones carthy] who stick a long instrumental in the middle of a narrative ballad, that is my prefernce and it has been one of the bits of advice i have given,like you i think Jon has potential and i have wished him success with his music. A MISTAKE THAT A LOT OF PERFOMERS MADE IN THE SEVENTIES WAS TO IMITATE MARTIN CARTH ,MORE LATTERLY THERE HAVE BEEN NIC JONES IMITATORS. TO SUCCEED YOU HAVE TO FIND YOUR OWN IDENTITY.by all means ccpy as a stepping stone but eventually you have to make your own style.
in the concertina world you could not confuse steve turner dick miles or lou killen peter bellamy brian peters damien barber for anyone else

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:54 PM

Always got a good solid and honest performance from M W R

--------:--------

I can listen to Cyril Tawney, Burl Ives (yes there is a lot to learn!) and MWR.

--------:--------

i have no problem with acompaniment for songs, I prefer the way MWR and Nic Dow use it ...


Excuse my ignorance, but who is MWR?


DC

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:57 PM

martyn wyndham read

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 21 May 20 - 04:09 PM

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 04:56 PM

Sorry if I seem to be going off topic but please bear with me. I will get to the thread theme eventualy!

I'm going to have to have a think and sleep on this but I am getting the germ of an idea. Looking at the milestones that Dick very kindly provided it seems that prior to 1898, folk music just happened. For millennia it got along quite nicely but 122 years ago it started to be studied and collected. Less than 60 years after that date someone decided that folk music needed to be revived and so it was taken out of houses, pubs, barns and other public places and put into folk clubs. Another 60 years down the line and we are told it needs reviving again so it is coming out of folk clubs and being put elsewhere by media savvy and imaginative youngsters like Jon and Cohen! See, told you I'd get there :-)

Here is the bit I need to think about. 120 years ago there as a major change when folk music was brought to the attention of the collectors etc. 60 years later there was another major change with the folk revival and the birth of the folk club. 60 years later we are now up to date and due another major change. What is it to be?

Maybe acts like Jon and Granny's attic. Maybe pushing folk into mainstream media. Maybe using modern methods of distribution more effectively. Who knows, cos I don't! Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 21 May 20 - 07:00 PM

With the greatest respect Dave you are a bit off the mark. There have been collectors of songs since the seventeenth century and probably before. The term Folk Music is a relatively new term. The songs did not just happen they were composed, and often found their way on to contemporary street literature, or in fact originated there. Cecil Sharp with his mission to revive, came late to Folk Song. Baring Gould John and Lucy Broadwood pre dated him.
OK I'll stop there and suggest you do a bit of reading. Bert Lloyd Steve Roud etc. Try and avoid Harker and his Fakesong if you can, you may spend too much time throwing his book at the wall.
Meanwhile nowt much has changed for eons but medium and venue. The enemy of Folk Song or any song for that matter is silence. I do not think we're going to stop singing, and the rest is inevitable. Ask any performing singer/musician and you will be told that you do not choose music, it chooses you.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:53 AM

yes, indeed, Nick

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 02:31 AM

Ah, ok. Thanks Nick. I was wrong about the change 120 years ago then but surely there was a big change in the first revival 60 years ago. That was when the revival put folk music into clubs and the whole folk scene as we now discuss it was born. In England anyway. So, folk clubs are a recent construct. Folk music was going for millennia before them and will continue long after. Those of us who have grown up with them and helped to nurture that scene will, understandably, mourn its passing. But the music is the important thing and it is youngsters like Jon who will have the ideas of how best to keep it alive. They are the hope for the future.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 02:54 AM

only if they realise that they have to organise events themselves , a few are but more are needed.
i doubt if it will survive with just a few people playing in each others houses, paradoxically once the music becomes heavily commercialised it seems to lose its closeness to its roots. the establishment and the media prefer commercial music to not question authority and not to have lyrics that require thought.
thinking is dangerous, let us take the seemingly innocous golden vanity this could be a metaphor for the bankers of the world today. They promise you the world, and when it's time to pay up, they leave you drowning
.on the subject of chosen ones this brings us to trump a player of the pink oboe

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:00 AM

An exception is ireland where the government in the [past has poured money] into supprting tradtional music

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:45 AM

I am sure it would survive with a few people playing in houses/barns/pubs because it did for thousands of years before folk clubs were invented. But we don't want it to just survive, we want it to flourish and to bring it to a bigger audience. That is where the youngsters come in. We have to face it, Dick, we are the old guard now. Our idea of a good time is not the same as a 20 year old's. While we enjoyed the folk clubs of the last revival, they may not. We need to hand the reins over to them. While keeping an eye on their driving of course ;-)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 20 - 03:52 AM

Oh, and it's no good telling them they need to organise events if we expect them to organise events like we did. They need to be given their heads to arrange them their own way and, probably, make their own mistakes. We can advise them.of course but how much is a 20 year old going to listen to the ramblings of a 70 year old?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 05:49 AM

anyway back to jon doran, he is a lot better than i was at his age.
Dave,i disagree the principles of good organising are not age related,
festivals ,the best way to start for the inexperience and perhaps ask advice in the area of people who have experience
tart with a one day festival.
or as regards clubs or similiar a regular monthly venue call it what ever, but a monthly commitment is not so demanding, it is a mistake to bite off more than one can chew, keep it small build up gradually

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 May 20 - 06:15 AM

I have no idea who the subject of this discussion is, but hope the following may provoke thoughts about the music post-Covid 19?
Local events like sessions were thriving before Covid, so why does folk music need all these myriad festivals and clubs and other organised events at all?
As DnG says, folk music seemed to manage OK up till then & although there was plenty of collected material around at that stage, it took the likes of Lonnie Donegan to point many of us in the right direction. His music was accessible, unlike those sources... I do recall researching the EFDSS's collection in the 60s being more forbidding than Fort Knox- not like Youtube in that respect?

There was probably a time about 60 plus years ago when many in UK became aware of their own tradition and like myself tried to absorb it- we became involved in the folk clubs- from early childhood I was always aware of the songs of my own Tyneside but knew little of the Child Ballads, Northumbrian Minstrelsy - that knowledge came later, via the folk clubs.

Since then, the clubs have done us all a great service on a local basis, but I've never really understood the attraction of festivals without a distinct local & community basis- Ireland is good at this, and also at honouring respected musicians, and I think of the East Anglian & Scottish TMSA festivals as good models.
I cannot see the enjoyment in flying around the country listening to much the same super-folkies every weekend of summer although younger people have no doubt found these events to have other attractions?- there speaks an old codger!

I contributed an article some tears ago to 'Living Tradition'about folk music having its roots in the community & regretting the more recent negative influence of commerce & I stand by that.
I do folk clubs very rarely these days, and I do realise some people have made a career of it, and good luck to them. However, it's not really a job and I think the present emergency may be bringing all that to an end.
If the Covid-19 has the longterm effect of ending the nationwide club/festival scene, I would not regret it. Its future may be in the past- after all, it survived for centuries in communities before the 'revival' and taken with the huge increase in availability of song, story and music by digital means, there are more than enough young singers & musicians to continue the music on a local basis.
Most importantly, they should do it in their own way, without interference from us old codgers on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 22 May 20 - 07:04 AM

An example of "Hope for Irish folk music" - just posted yesterday, apparently :
https://youtu.be/kraCA8XjctI

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 May 20 - 08:14 AM

"i doubt if it will survive with just a few people playing in each other houses"

Serious question for you Dick, just how did it survive for hundreds of years prior to the advent of folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 08:48 AM

Jim , i suggest you listen to the clip.THERE IS NO HARM IN GIVING ADVICE , it does not have to be taken,
I wish i had had more people to have asked advice.
i did seek advice from and older person and he advised me to concentrate on uk trad material ,i am glad he gave me advice
.as for the rest of your post let us wait and see to quote stanley Baldwin

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 20 - 08:54 AM

very different times, raggy todaymany including many young are eager particpants in music as consumerism,not as a hobby. even the suggestion and the wording of this thread that one person gives hope for folk music has a flavour of pop stardom,that attitude is a late 20 century and 21st century phenomenon

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 May 20 - 09:03 AM

Dick, I have taken a lot of advice in my time & acted accordingly, or not.
I would hope that what you and I & many others have done by example will have been influential over the years and has been good for the music's future- let's hope so anyway.
It's a period when a lot of things will need to change & folk music will be no exception- it can't go back to what it was a few months ago & I was just outlining what I think should happen...
ps don't think I'll take any notice of what Stanley Baldwin had to say- not one of my heroes

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 22 May 20 - 09:23 AM

Jim Bainbridge, or anyone who's done discussing Jon Doran: I think it would make a great thread. "The future of folk music in a post-Covid-19 world".

I don't know why people seem so hesitant to start new threads.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 May 20 - 01:15 PM

Yes Jeri- that seems a good idea

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 May 20 - 02:15 AM

It's interesting that Argentina has a vibrant folk scene, and is a major part of its culture, with both singing and dancing, and even forms a major part of its tourist trade!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 04:05 AM

I have no idea who the subject of this discussion is,
I agree almost complerely with your sentiments Jim but I do take issue with your "old codger" remark
I suspect that, like me and others, you benefitted from the advice and practical assistance from the older singers and researchers that were generous to offer their help when we first dipped our toe into the scene - they had been where we wanted to go and they had met and overcome the pitfalls of being new
More than at any time now, where there is a massive fog hanging over the identity of folk song, new people need help in finding their way through the pea-souper and make their choices by being given all the information available to make their choices
Nobody expects them to agree or follow everything they are told- we certainly didn't, but at least some of us were given a wide choice of options
he renaissance that is taking place in Ireland at present would never have happened if it hadn't been for te old fogeys like Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Pddy Tunney and Joe Heaney, and researchers like Lomax, Sean O'Boyle, Hugh Shields, Tommy Munnelly, and even earlier Seamus Delargy - they all went where youngsters need to be given the chance to go

I can't find the quote but someone (Raggy I think) repeated the mantra that folk isn't what Jim or others want it to be
Whoever said it - yes it is' I'm afraid
I don't "want it to be" aything - it is what it has been researched, identified and defined as being as being for at lest 150 years and a small and diminishing number of folkies who might want it to be something else are not going to chnge that until they can agree and win support for what and who has replaced it - wandering around chanting "nobody knows what folk song is any more" really doesn't hack it - folk song is far too well defined and recorded for
Anybody with doubts migh look in the magnificent 8 volume Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection or the mammoth James M Carpenter, English Scots and American on line folk song collection (or even the tiny 'Penguin Book of English Folk Songs) to find folk songs
If anybody has an alternative, I'd live to hear it
Up to now, Humpty Dumpty's "word mean what I want them to mean" law seems to be ruling the roost - with the inevitable results

as going to post this yesterday but I thought I'd wait for the dust to settle (is it my imagination or has a thread ion Bert Lloyd disappeared - (maybe I've been overdoing the takeaway Guinness)
Jim

e

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 May 20 - 05:45 AM

Jim,
   what I was saying was not to denigrate old codgers everywhere, I benefited from the EXAMPLE of older singers rather than their advice- I found in many cases it was THEY who needed advice about how to handle newfound fame!

I was just saying there is a vast amount of material ON TOP of what we were aware of in the early days. Also that we can state our view of the music, as you have consistently, but it's up to younger folk to either listen or not & go from there- they have the tools.
I have a different view of the music, but we won't go into that- things have to change, and over the years we've never been able to close off our music from the crass end of the commercial world as I think we'd both prefer.
However there are changes coming everywhere & maybe in the world of folk music, maybe with all its horrors, Covid 19 will do the job for us & set us all on a different route?
I'll continue this theme (if necessary) on the thread suggested by Jeri.
ps- my local pub/brewery in Scotland will deliver 12x half litre bottles of his own brew for £25 - will Guinness not do that? - maybe not the price, but it's the Covid equivalent of the milk round- it doesn't come on the NHS unfortunately

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:15 AM

" I benefited from the EXAMPLE of older singers rather than their advice"
I found both an immense help - they new whaaaat folk song was and how important it was
They didn't always say the same thing in detail but basically they were aall coming from the same place
Much have what has been added has got in the way of people understanding the music and has led to less rather than more followers
The dream of the old crowd of revivalists was to add to the tradition rather than replace is, which seems to e the case today
What it boils to is that Ireland now has a guaranteed future for its music alongside a healthy experimental movement whereas in England, the old songs are teetering on the brink of disappearing onto the shelves and in the archives
Past disasters like The Famine actually provided the fertilizer in which oral traditions could deepen home roots and lay down new ones wherever the refugees fled to find new homes
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:38 AM

If I may give a little slice of opinion here, I have always felt the presence, the company of older musicians a great help. Not just as an example musically or advice or guidance given but simply the company that gives you context and insights into the culture and attitudes around it, perhaps more important than just the music per se. But that is in the Irish context, that seems very different to me from the English folkscene that appears so obsessed with clubs and bookings.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:45 AM

I was under the impression that people like Nancy Kerr, Seth Lakeman and someone else whose name escapes my just now (- we have builders next door making traditional mechanical noises!!!) are adding to the tradition with various projects in which they have become involved. Ah yes The Askew Sisters with their "Enclosure" project.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 06:59 AM

Some are, some aren't in my opinion Bonzo - but nowhere near enough to make a real difference
One of the main problems is that the scene has been deliberately ripped up from the grass roots to make room for wannabe professionals, which means cap-doffing to the music industry and pleasing the media rather than using it
I think Peter is spot on, other than his view of the clubs
Iris music can and will survive in a session environment, but sessions offer no future for singers, who require attention for say, longish ballads and narrative songs
Music Sessions can be too noisy but a good one usually manages to rise above the noise and win a listening environment
THat is yet to happen for singing
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 May 20 - 07:26 AM

But the "wannabe professionals" will make a pretty wide audience aware of the traditional roots from which they take their style, however commercial - they have to eat don't they! So from that audience, there will come a few more who are interested enough to perform traditional songs, and may even write new songs to become part of the tradition in the future.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 23 May 20 - 08:10 AM

But the "wannabe professionals" will make a pretty wide audience aware of the traditional roots from which they take their style, however commercial - they have to eat don't they! So from that audience, there will come a few more who are interested enough to perform traditional songs, and may even write new songs to become part of the tradition in the future.
I agree there when considering the BRITISH folk scene. Without folk song as a "community" experience the first introduction for most people will be from commercial sources. In my young days this was The Spinners or Bob Dylan.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 20 - 08:18 AM

'I think Peter is spot on, other than his view of the clubs'

I have very little experience with English/UK folkclubs, just an impression gleaned from different sources. Not even an opinion or a view but an impression although perhaps not a particularly favourable one.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 08:54 AM

"will make a pretty wide audience aware of the traditional roots from which they take their style,"
I used to believe that Bonzo - from the days whan Shirley Ellis recorded 'Rubber Dolly'
It never worked out - they create audiences for what they do to the tradition rather than the tradition itself
The problem with many these singers is that they all have potential but no real interest in the tradition
You mentioned Nancy Kerr earlier - I remember her as a child
Her parents, Sandra Kerr and Ron Elliot are/were wonderful performers (Ron, a tremendous Northumbrian piper died far too young)
I performed with them both occasionally, though they both were far better than I was and Sandra and her former husband John Faulkner, were incredibly kind to me when I moved to London
Sandra visited Ireland shortly after we moved here and gave us an early recording of Nancy - spooky - it was the young Sandra I remember
Nancy maintained what she got from her mother while moving not too far away from the tradition
A great example of intelligent use of the old forms (though I confess I haven't herd her or James for a while)
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 08:56 AM

I started my folk life in the Liverpool Spinners Club Peter
I tried my best to like Dylan but failed miserably
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 23 May 20 - 09:27 AM

"The problem with many these singers is that they all have potential but no real interest in the tradition" - Jim, above.
That I would say is also very much the case at the moment in Scotland, and even more so for instrumentalists.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 10:16 AM

i am lucky in that in my locality and within 50 miles there are good musicians who play in the sliabh luchra tradtion

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 23 May 20 - 10:49 AM

Nancy Kerr is one of my favourite folk artists. I enjoy both her more traditional material as well as her own excellent songs

Jon Boden is another artist who is doing much to keep folk song alive - his Folk Song a Day project for example. He is another excellent songwriter in the folk tradition - I consider his album 'Songs From The Floodplain' to be the finest folk album of the 21st century so far

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 11:38 AM

"as well as her own excellent songs"
Her mam's a great songwriter too - something else she inherited
Wonder if she inherited the game of making up new names for folk songs Sandra, John and I used to play on long car journeys

FOLK FOODS
The Grey Co Au Vin
The Unquiet Gravy
Dowie Dens of Marrow or Alan Tyne of Marrow
or the American - Hang Down your Head Tandoori

FOLK ANIMALS
The False Kite on the Toad
Terrapin Hero......

Used to keep us awake on the longest journeys
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 20 - 01:44 PM

nused on here really

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 May 20 - 01:52 PM

nused ??