Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 May 20 - 01:35 AM

so my advice to jon doran is if you find you cannot make a living, it is not a reflection of your musical talent ,it could be one ofthe symptoms of capitalism, over supply of a type, however, cherish your music keep playing, to be able to play music well or have any artistic skill is a fantastic gift, but a gift that requires constant practice

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:07 PM

Nice troll, Dave.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:50 PM

A word on criticism - if performers don't like their performances discussed critically they should stay at home and sing to their ribber ducks in the bath - that goes for their followers

Unless of course anyone criticises the great gods of folk music as approved by you, Jim? I cannot listen to more than a few minutes of some source singers but when I dared to mention that I was told in no uncertain terms that if I didn't go into raptures about x, y or z I had no right to comment.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:39 PM

kenny yes he has potential, both as a guitarist and as a singer,i thought he had more idea than the girl singing mary and the soldier [she too could be very good in time
presentin an evening in a club is another skill too, that experience helps one to learn.
it is very difficult foe male singer guitarists to make a living on ther folk scene because there are so many of them, and venues are disappearing young people will have to organise their own events ther have been many who have been hailed as the next star lee collinson was one and where is he now. anyway may i wish jon all the best may he enjoy his music and get pleasure from it , it is a wonderful thing to have akill that can lift ones spirits, making a living from it is only a secondary consideration

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:20 PM

Nice Kenny....but there's a joke in that. When Pentangle started I regarded them as too commercial, a sell out, not really folk!
Are you listening Jim?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:05 PM

Sorry - screwed up the links above - try again :

https://youtu.be/EnSQXNto_qI

https://youtu.be/DibABg7DkWQ

However - wasn't this discussion supposed to be about an up-and-coming singer called Jon Doran ? Might be time to get back to that.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:12 PM

i do like that sort of thing and so do some others , otherwise i would not have been doing this for fortyfouryears but i might have been an accountant like you, so bonzo you feel free to tell me about your trade and i will discuss mine, which hasinvolved doing gigs for 44years, this is not just about taste but getting certain basics right. there is no pint singning a s9ong if people cannot hear all the words or if your instrument is too dominant in relation to the voice

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:05 PM

Yes if you like that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:39 PM

Very nice sandman and a few tips picked up on the tune I requested

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:53 PM

now jim carroll probably wont like this but here is a way of accompanying a ballad so that all the words can be heard and the story is told in a narrative style, this is not perfect, but the basics are right words clear concertina accompanying not dominating the song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0zAr1t6nTE

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:43 PM

you see bonzo the difference between you and me is that you are looking for a pleasant sound , i am looking to hear a story sung as a story ,that requires first good diction and second making sure the voice is louder than the the accompanying instrument

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:37 PM

this is a problem for alot of singers that use mikes all the time they do not learn to project their voices, it is all done by the sound engineer

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:34 PM

sorry bonzo not as good as jon doran,his vocals were clearer than hers she has a pleasant voice but again the voice should be further forward, this does not require special mikes you just play the instrument quieter and sing louder, that was the sort of mistake i made when i first started accompanyin with concertina. look if you sing acoustically inclubs without mikes you get the bakance right otherwise you dont get rebooked. and with respect i have done some folk clubs over 15 times over the years

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:06 PM

Here is another version of Mary & the Soldier from a young lady with a beautiful high voice and nice guitar technique!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:58 PM

Everybody has to not like something!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:54 PM

the only purpose of a guitar instrumental in the middle of a narrative ballad is if the singer has forgotten the words, i do not mind a guitar instrumental at the beginning of a song or even at the end, but as far as i am concerned the only people do ti generally speaking is to show off their finger dexterity, it interrupts the flow of the song and that applies to carthy and jones,
mind you a couple of years ago i heard a ballad sung unaccompanied at a festival and half the words were incomprehensible and it went on for ten minutes, when the singer is that badan instrumental on the feckin didgeredoo or the pink oboe would have been welcome

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:45 PM

Well hell, they sure don't make Jews like Jesus any more out there - and I mean that most sincerely folks!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:39 PM

Bonzo3legs, I think you may be misunderstand the term folk. IMHO, 'Send Lawyers, Guns and Money is just a tad raunchy and rock-us (see what I did there?). Here's one for you to listen to. Now THIS is folk ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYEhir_PRSA

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:26 PM

I've only recently discovered WZ, he was a great lyricist, but I hope sincerely that he performed this song unaccompanied - preferable (LOL) or with minimum non-intrusive backing like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 17 May 20 - 12:17 PM

He (Warren Zevon) had played the Calgary Festival a few weeks before the Edmonton FF back in 2002.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 11:01 AM

Roland, too.
He actually played the Edmonton Folk Fest before he died. Pretty unexpected (for me, anyway).

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:57 AM

I went home with the waitress
The way I always do
How was I to know
She was with the Russians, too?

I was gambling in Havana
I took a little risk
Send lawyers, guns and money
Dad, get me out of this!

Now I'm hiding in Honduras
I'm a desperate man
Send lawyers, guns and money
The shit has hit the fan


Folk music!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:55 AM

Thanks, Starship. I saw he posted a link after I replied, but I was trying to stay somewhat on-topic. For the post-hyphen part of the title, anyway.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:30 AM

Jeri, I think Ake's post may refer to Mairi Campbell (note spelling) who is easily found on YouTube and Google.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:14 AM

Ake, I don't know who "Marie" is. I was talking about the subject of the thread.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: weerover
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:10 AM

Well as can be expected under the present circumstances, akenaton, same hopes for you.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:07 AM

Jeri...Marie is no prodigy, she has been singing in the traditional style for years, but is adapting to different tastes and different times without losing the ethos of the songs.
Her popularity is rising among the young musicians here, which must be a good thing in keeping the music alive.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Joe G
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:07 AM

Jim - I wasn't referring to the Scottish song more recently posted as I haven't listened to that - I was commenting on the Jon Doran song I briefly listened to. My point stands - you prefer songs not to be sung with instrumental interludes. I am quite happy, and indeed often prefer, them to be sung with them. My attention span is long enough to accommodate the interludes between the words. It is still a folk song, sung by a folk singer and to my ears a lot more enjoyable and, importantly, engaging, than listening to many unaccompanied songs.

That is my preference - the presentation of the song is neither wrong nor right. It is as equally folk as if it were sung unaccompanied, or indeed if it was in a band arrangement or in an electronica setting.

We all have different tastes in how songs are presented - it doesn't mean that any of us can claim that only their preference is the only truly folk presentation

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:59 AM

Yes weerover, You're right enough, but although I misspoke my intentions were good......very nice to see you here, if I remember correctly we had some good rows long ago :o).   Also good to see Observer who's views I always take seriously.....Hope you are both well?

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jeri
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:46 AM

Jim, you're sounding like a parody of yourself. Grumpy old men and traditional music, against the talented up-coming artists they try to destroy.
The problem is that, while the old recorded stuff is there, the new stuff changes. Just try to see it as something different from what went before. You can rail against new music, but I believe you'll wear yourself out eventually, and you won't be much fun to have at parties.

People have not finished their personal evolution the first time they come to our notice. "Hope for folk music" is about the futre. This guy isn't done, yet. I keep looking for reviews of Carthy from back in the day. Maybe he got panned by geezers*. Maybe he had more time to develop before coming to notice. Maybe these days, we're too enamored of prodigies.


*I'm using this to refer to attitude, not age.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: weerover
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:40 AM

GUEST, I take your point, I was merely correcting akenaton's earlier comment, "the words are traditional". A minor point you may think, and I don't remember ever seeing much in his/her many posts to take issue with, just putting the record straight.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:32 AM

"Remember the wonderful Bert Lloyd Programmes the Beeb used to broadcast, or the amount of coverage fiven to folk on programmes like 'Folk on Two'?"

Trouble is that folk is out of the ghetto and is being taken seriously by the Beeb so it turns up without warning in the middle of the playlist.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:29 AM

"The term "traditional" usually refer to unknown authorship: this is definitely by Robert Burns. "

I can't be arsed to go digging back through this thread to see what you are referring to but depending on context "traditional" can either refer to authorship, community transmission or (possibly) style of performance.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: weerover
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:23 AM

Wasn't crazy about the rendition of "The Lea-rig", one of my late father's (and my) favourite songs. Also, she gets a word wrong in the first line ("evening" should be "eastern"), maybe more similar errors but didn't listen analytically.

The term "traditional" usually refer to unknown authorship: this is definitely by Robert Burns.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:09 AM

"but please allow others to describe as folk music as they see fit, "
Only if you'll let me call a cabbage a potato
Don't be silly Bozo - things are called what they are called for a reason - mainly so we can talk about that and understand what each of us means
We lost a bloody good folk scene when that stopped happening
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:42 AM

Didn't finish - and I'm sure what you are doing is fine and worthwhile, but please allow others to describe as folk music as they see fit, and to enjoy it played in a way that is most pleasing to their ears.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:38 AM

We'll agree to disagree then.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:31 AM

"However if it encourages some people to look deeper into the topic that is excellent."
I go along with you to a point Peter, but if a newbie enters a scene that can't or refuses to discus what the term is and brushes it aside as "stupid rules", it is difficult to see how they are going to move on
My concept of 'folk' originally was Miss Whatist hammering 'Cherry Ripe' out on the upright in school
I've been gathering all the old scripts of talks Pat and I have given over the years - I was boggled they number over fify, maily to schools, colleges and universities
I don't remember us agreeing to plan it but I realised that we chose what we talked about and our examples based on who we were talking to
I remember the quality being sometimes varied, but I can never remember on that didn't work at some level
Recently I've been working on Irish Child ballads - a fairly new field in Ireland
I don't attempt to define a ballad to someone unfamiliar - much easier to employ Jean Richies suggestion and ask them "Do you know Barbara Allen"?" - most people have heard it - it's a great 'in' to the subject
Same with folk song in general - you have to do it in stages
Ireland is easy ans it has an extremely rich and far more recent tradition and many of the songs represent a 'national pride' in what is actually a new nation.
Travellers are the same - they are embracing many of their songs as part of their identity and their future becomes more precarious
These songs are part of our existence, national and cultural
You don't have to convince the people of that - presented the right way, they'll accept them as entertainment
You need to convince the art organisations who hold control the purse string, or the education organisation, or the 'arty' side of the media
Remember the wonderful Bert Lloyd Programmes the Beeb used to broadcast, or the amount of coverage fiven to folk on programmes like 'Folk on Two'?
You really are not going to win that back if you water down your product
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:16 AM

Don't forget, posts further up are comparing Jon's performance sound balance, which was webcast live from his bedroom using one mic, with balanced studio recordings. Can you really do that in all honesty? It's a bit like comparing the pope to johnny jihadi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:08 AM

I very much enjoyed it - shame about the trousers though!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:53 AM

More used to the singing of this song by Ian Bruce, Eilidh Grant and "The Sangsters", so I am afraid that Marie Campbell's rendition of "The Lea Rig" barely even qualifies as singing in my mind, listening to her performance was like listening to an old and dear friend being tortured purely for the hell of it.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:46 AM

Sorry Peter and Kenny I'm a little less disappointed now :o)

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:38 AM

I find it rather disappointing that other members haven't given aview on this discussion, as it is quite important regarding the future of the music and the discussion is being conducted without it becoming too "academic"

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:37 AM

Her name is Mairi Campbell.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:37 AM

And then we move to electric folk and Ashley Hutching's masterpiece with Shirley Collins which would be nothing without the carefully arranged instrumentation!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:35 AM

Many of the latest generation of young performers seem to me to be producing material as far from "folk" as the settings by Sharp, Vaughan Williams, Butterworth or Britten. Excellent music but not always to my taste. However if it encourages some people to look deeper into the topic that is excellent.

If the "folk" label hadn't been applied to some of the commercial material that I enjoyed in the 60s I would never have been tempted to visit a thing called a "folk club" which has had me hooked on pretty hard core English trad ever since.

Subject: RE: quality about them which I find ha- Jon Doran!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:32 AM

"quality about them which I find hard to define, "Hope for folk Music"
But you raised it in the context of "The hope for folk music" and described this lady as "embodying the ethos of folk Music"
You've described it - that's the problem
It bears on relationship to any previous form of folk musicAt least Doran is a caricature of what has replaced folk in the minds of some of the remaining few on the scene
Once you do that you have to justify your claim with examples
You don't need to "feel folk song when you here it" - it's impossible to put feelings into words
Folk has a soecific meaning related to a specific section of society - "traditional" describes the priocess by which the sons were made, remade, adapted and absorbed into the 'folk communities'
THere's nothing "rulish" or "stupid" in that - it's how we continue to communicate with each other (when we do)

I don't like what Gachan does with his sogs but I don't have too much trouble undersyanding the words
Your "sassenach" is showing miss
Jim

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:24 AM

"Your woman 'performs' the song - folk songs demand interpretation by their very existence".   She is unfortunately not "my woman" and her name is Marie Campbell she has been singing traditional songs for years and probably knows as much about the tradition as you do.
You say that folk songs require interpretation, well Marie puts her own interpretation on "The Lea Rig" and has done so with quite a few Burns songs in the last few years.....In my opinion her interpretation enhances the song, but I will admit that not everyone could pull it off.
If folk is to survive in mainstream music, it must adapt to change in society.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:03 AM

It must be admitted that the three performers put forward here have a "special" quality about them which I find hard to define, but most people feel it when they hear it. There is a place for the traditional interpretation, but I suppose it could be confined to the "academic" section of music. The music of the people must move with the times, yet retain links with the basic emotions of humanity....that is where the quality of performance comes in, the ability to connect with present and future generations.

Subject: RE: Hope for folk music - Jon Doran!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:18 AM

Un cancionito de folklore!!!