 sj |
||
|
||
Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they?
|
|
|
Subject: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 16 May 20 - 06:37 AM Musical Clock in for restoration - the English folk community (and ex pats Welsh!) have named two - can you help with the other five please...? Trying to identify all 7 before the clock goes back to its owner, post service. EFDSS facebook page are kindly posting films of each (they've posted 5 out of 7 so far) please see > English Folk and Dance |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 16 May 20 - 06:47 AM PS - happy to send short, 25 second (2KB), films of each tune (on the cleaned, restored mechanism) to anyone willing to receive/review. Many thanks |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Jack Campin Date: 16 May 20 - 09:25 AM Can you just put them on YouTube or SoundCloud? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST Date: 17 May 20 - 02:59 PM Tune 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Un7t5MznA Tune 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-aiulwG3is Tune 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvTf0PBIEVY Tune 4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHKYubdmk4 Tune 5 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIPh2Q1pK3k Tune 6 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoYKKRsasjw Tune 7 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8NXMJI0JCw Thanks Jack - I had to get help to upload to YouTube as I've never done anything like that before. Do I need to re-publish this thread, or anything, or will people now be able to pick up on it...? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Starship Date: 17 May 20 - 03:19 PM This link will take you to all seven. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy2GvvG2-UTrHExMBAZrM1Q |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 May 20 - 05:30 PM Had a good listen and they don't really sound British to me. Where was the clock made? They also sound modal. Could they be carols? Number 3 seemed to be like a modal version of Lilliburlero/ Rock-a-bye Baby. Is there any chance something is adjusted wrongly? Are they being played backwards for instance? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 17 May 20 - 05:48 PM I listened to them too and none of them sounded familiar but one problem is the tinkliness/tinklyness (good word, huh?) made it difficult to hear the tunes properly. Music box mechanisms usually sound a bit better when they are anchored to a solid object because it gives a bit more resonance. John the Clockmaker, what are the two tunes which have already been identified? It might give a clue to the likely identity of the other tunes. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 17 May 20 - 05:56 PM Tune #6 reminds me a little of Good King Wenceslaus |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Jeri Date: 17 May 20 - 06:21 PM #3 sounds familiar, but not enough, and #7 sounds, generally, like the tune to a hymn. I have difficulty hearing the pitch amidst all the plinky overtones. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Jack Campin Date: 17 May 20 - 07:15 PM My phone speaker really doesn't like that - a continuous ring swamps the tune. What I can make out sounds improbably like Shetland tunes. Will try again with something that gives better sound |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 17 May 20 - 08:08 PM I'm wondering if the tunes are famous church carillons or famous clock tower chimes like the Winchester chimes, but being an Aussie I don't recognise them. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 May 20 - 03:24 AM I like that last suggestion, Helen. I suppose the fact that they are struck bells might give that impression but it's certainly a possibility. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 05:02 AM Dear all - thanks very much for your input. The clock was made in Oxford (Oxfordshire/England/UK) and the maker's shop there only finally closed in December 2019 (Rowell's). I can assure you that none of these are "standard" clock chimes and the good peolpe of EFDSS (the English Folk and Dance Song Society) have identified two of the tunes via their facebook page: Tune 1 = "Codiad yr Ehedydd": as played by musicians here> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeHTQs6VDX0&fbclid=IwAR1_NiBm9rjZlgBVQUNc9nabYGhvuwsQeJtWZGQJSwj_-tNcnxYVjWccdPU Tune 2 = "Begone Dull Care": as played by musicians here> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHgdenQwDbk&fbclid=IwAR0Whfru-iT1YoYJtCJ6HavgJpW5BsodrZ2sJbsS4UxRFBxiwM_4c2LLDAU Compared with the clock - each of these are quite recognisable. The films posted by EFDSS on facebook were of the clock playing tunes BEFORE cleaning - so they're slower/more laboured. Does that help with identification? Would it be worth my posting the "slow" versions on YouTube...? Let me know. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 05:05 AM PS - I like the idea of tune 7 being hymn-like. The clock indexes the tune on once a day so yes - likely that the "Sunday" tune will be a hymn (and the other 6 "secular"!!!) |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 05:15 AM Tune # 1 "Codiad yr Ehedydd" The Rising of the Lark Ok, listening to it now with that tune in mind I can hear it. A long time ago I started learning to play that tune but never progressed very far with it. I'm having a bit of trouble hearing Begone Dull Care in tune # 2 John, the slower more laboured tunes may help with identification. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 05:17 AM Helen, Thanks - I'll upload to You Tube. John |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 06:36 AM Thanks John. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 06:57 AM Helen - internet awful this morning - still trying to action on you tube. John |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Jack Campin Date: 18 May 20 - 07:59 AM Helen's suggestion is good - the sound was probably intended to be the result of anchoring the mechanism to the clock case. Gluing it to a guitar body might work. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 08:10 AM Helen, John, The case is many miles away in lockdown! It sounds passable on my PC with its detached/stand-alone speakers but I can understand it would sound bad on a mobile phone speaker. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 08:14 AM SO... 12 tunes uploaded to You Tube 7 "fast" - running on the clean mechanism 5 "slow" - running on the "dirty" mechanism (I seem to have lost 2 original films through giving them duplicate names :-/ ) I can regenerate the 2 missing "slow" films, next week some time (when the whole thing is back together), if they're helpful to anyone... |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 03:46 PM Thanks John, that makes it easier to hear the tunes. In the "clean" tunes there is a lot of extra sound because each prong/tine (correct terminology?) keeps ringing after it is struck so it sounds like a small sea of noise. To pick out the melody from all the sounds was difficult. Listening to the slow ones it's easier to identify which notes are the melody. Now to identify the tunes. Is it possible that some more of the tunes are Welsh? I had a little twinge of recognition on one of the tunes but I'll have to listen to them all again and try to dredge up more information from my ageing brain. Also now that I have heard the slow tunes, the clean tunes might make more sense. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 03:52 PM I just looked more closely at the mechanism and realised that they are little hammers hitting little bells. I was assuming it was like a music box with the prongs/tines being hit by the spikes on the turning wheel. Sorry about my lack of knowledge of the proper terminology. Tune # 3 slow version definitely sounds familiar. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Hihi the kiwi Date: 18 May 20 - 06:05 PM given that each of those bells is a discrete note could someone write out the tune as notation? I think it may be easier to recognise if played on a different instrument as the ringing over from the bells is not helping. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 06:32 PM Yes, Hihi the kiwi (Hi from across the pond - no, not the big pond, over here to the west) I had the same thought but I'm not a wiz at notating tunes by ear. I did start trying to work out tune # 3 and saved it as a midi file but I just tried to find the ABC Converter at Mandolin Tabs website and the message was that the account is suspended. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Starship Date: 18 May 20 - 06:42 PM Instead of trying to hear the notes struck, is there some way to tell what each bell's note is and then just see which bells the hammers hit and in what sequence? After once through to determine a given bell's note then one doesn't need the sound. Just watch the hammers, because there's just one hammer per bell. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 03:42 AM Does anyone else think that Tune # 3 sounds familiar? I know I have heard it before but I can't seem to get any closer to identifying it. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 19 May 20 - 04:14 AM Helen, Starship - thanks for all your suggestions and input. A more skilled musician than I would be needed to do the notation (like most guitarists - I play by ear!). I did do films - rather than audio recordings - in case anybody wanted to pick apart the sequence of notes. Just a word of warning - I'm fairly sure this nest of thirteen bells does not conform to the 12 note chromatic music scale we westerners are used-to in the modern day. Don't know whether that is the limitation of bell making/tuning at the time - or whether musical scales were different back then. I'm vaguely aware, for example, that some of the baroque music (Vivaldi etc) and medieval music, was written using different scales and has to be transposed to be played on modern instruments... All a bit above my pay-grade! |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 04:58 AM I have done a rough approximation of Tune # 3 and saved it as a midi file. It made sense in the key of F Major, which has one flat, i.e. B flat. I can't post it here unless I do a bit of mental gymnastics and manually make it into an ABC notation. Personally, I don't think it will make it any easier to identify the tunes to create music notation. I did suggest before that Tune # 6 reminded me of Good King Wenceslaus, but I've listened to it again and I've changed my mind. Given that the clock was made in 1834 it's quite possible that the tunes may have been well known back then, but nearly 200 years later some of them may have dropped into obscurity. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 19 May 20 - 05:39 AM Helen, Re your last point and the tunes having dropped into obscurity - that's what makes this project so interesting. The machine captures the notes, the phrasing etc from 1834 - the nearest thing we'll get to a live recording from that year! These tunes could be the basis for a great folk/roots concept album... :-) |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 06:02 AM I agree John, an interesting project. If only we could identify the tunes it would make it easier to follow up with some research. I'm still wondering if some of the other tunes are also Welsh, possibly including a hymn or two. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 19 May 20 - 06:34 AM I've made the acquaintance of someone closely involved with "trac: music traditions wales - traddodiadau cerdd cymru" - and she doesn't recoginise any of the rest as Welsh... (or recognise them at all. She's helping me explore other avenues - she suggested mudcat). |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 19 May 20 - 06:46 AM Yay! Got another one! Tune 7 is indeed a hymn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5BDcfzFTOQ "Tune is "Illsley" and was written by John Bishop (1665-1737). In my hymn book it is used for an evening office hymn “O Trinity of blessed light, O Unity of primal might, The fiery sun now goes his way, Shed thou within our hearts thy ray”. The words were translated from the Latin by J M Neale (1818-1866), but this tune may have been used for other hymns in 1834. Long Metre is the second most common metre (after “Common Metre”)." Grateful thanks to Mr Geoffrey Hunter of the Church of England. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 07:12 AM Yay! Only four more to find! :-) |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 02:48 PM So, to summarise what we know so far and some more information on two of the tunes. Tune # 1 Codiad yr Ehedydd: The Rising of the Lark Composer: OWEN, DAVID (‘Dafydd y Garreg Wen '; 1711 - 1741), harpist attained fame both as harpist and as the reputed composer of the airs called ‘Dafydd y Garreg Wen’ (‘David of the White Rock’), ‘Codiad yr Ehedydd’ (‘The rising of the lark’), and ‘Difyrrwch gwyr Criccieth’ (‘The delight of the men of Criccieth’). He died on 2 August 1741 and was buried in Ynyscynhaearn churchyard. "Codiad yr Ehedydd: The Rising of the Lark published by Olivia Buckley Dussek , 1799-1847. Single work for solo harp. Three of Olivia Buckley Dussek’s arrangements of Welsh Airs - The March of the Men of Harlech, Rising of the Lark and Megan’s Daughter have been re-set and re-published by Adlais as part of our ‘Victorian Favourites' series." The Traditional Tune Archive has some information including the music notation and ABC Notation. "Codiad yr Ehedydd" Tune # 2 Begone Dull Care Begone Dull Care notes the following printed sources: Printed sources : - Aird (Selection of Scotch, English, Irish and Foreign Airs, vol. 4), 1796; No. 173, p. 65. Howe (Complete Preceptor for the Accordeon), 1843; p. 8 (appears as "Kinlock"). Kerr (Merry Melodies), vol. 3; No. 399, p. 44. O'Farrell (Pocket Companion, vol. II), c. 1806; p. 159. Begone Dull Care has this comment about Benjamin Britten's arrangement for performance in a school environment: "The text was written by an anonymous artist in the 17th century, and was published in a book called English Lyrical Verse (The King’s Treasuries)." Tune # 7 See John the Clockmaker's post on 19 May 20 - 06:46 AM "Tune is "Illsley" and was written by John Bishop (1665-1737)." I'm wondering whether one of the printed sources mentioned on the pages I found could also hold the other tunes that we are looking for. Further research is needed. I'm hoping to find online copies to see a list of other tunes in the books or even digital copies of the books to be able to see the music notation of other tunes. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 04:59 PM Digital archive of Aird Selection of Scotch, English, Irish and Foreign Airs, vol. 4 That page is the start of the index of Vol 4 Begone Dull Care Volumes 1- 3 also available. The books have music notation for a large number of tunes. If my guess is correct the tunes for the clock, other than the hymn(s) perhaps, may have been found in books like these volumes and the other tunes may also be in the same book. By reading through the tune titles on the index pages it's possible that someone might recognise the clock tunes. Maybe it's a long shot, but it could be a starting point for the search. I found a few tunes which I know about abut didn't realise how old they were. I haven't looked yet for the other books I mentioned above. An aside: These digital archives are a treasure trove. I love libraries!!! Thank you librarians and library staff for the wonderful work you do. (I shouldn't have quit my job as a librarian back in the late '90's. Big mistake!) |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 05:36 PM Tune # 3 Is it Can Ye Sew Cushions? Here it is performed by Jean Redpath |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 05:56 PM So, Can Ye Sew Cushions is on page 69 of Aird's book, volume 4, and Begone Dull Care is on page 65. I have another theory which has been ticking over in my mind. Codiad yr Ehedydd is a Welsh tune Begone Dull Care is an English tune Can Ye Sew Cushions is a Scottish tune Is Tune # 4 - or # 5 or # 6 - an Irish tune? And Tune # 7 is a hymn (Someone tell me to get a life, please!) |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 07:22 PM Tune # 4 Miss Wardlaw's Reel maybe? Page 49 in the Aird Vol 4 Miss Wardlaw's Reel |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 20 May 20 - 05:26 AM Helen, Fantastic work. I'm letting a pianist/organist friend of mine look at the staves - given I don't sight read. Just love the archive finds - just the "feel" of the documents brings another time to life, doesn't it?! "Can yes sew cushions" is available in several versions on you tube (all audibly the same tune) and I can hear similarities in structure and rhythm - but I couldn't hear the exact same tune as clock#3. I've asked my pianist friend for her thoughts. No version of "Miss Wardlaw's Reel" on you tube, for us play-by-ear types, to listen to - sadly. Thanks again - we're edging closer... |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 06:45 AM Sorry, I posted the same link twice. I found a sound file of Miss Wardlaw's Reel |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 06:46 AM Or a slower version here Miss Wardlaw's Reel |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 20 May 20 - 07:20 AM Thanks Helen, I'll have a listen when I get back from Sainsbury's...:-) |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 20 May 20 - 12:21 PM Interesting find. To "convert" this type of audio to MIDI, the free software "AmazingMidi" may work (not amazingly, but free). There are several free and easy-to-use software products available to convert MIDI to ABC. A better idea would be to use Themefinder – if the tunes were more common than they obviously are. I'd give it zero chance in this case, but good to know anyway. In the end, human experts are required, as to be found on Mudcat – where else? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 12:46 PM Grishka, I just hit the 'play' button on both of those sites and the audio file played. Why do you need to convert the file? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 12:55 PM Just found this. Our very own Jack Campin has a page with ABC files of tunes from Aird's Vol 4. Miss Wardlaw's Reel - ABC file is about three quarters of the way down the page. Thanks Jack! You're a legend! X:0725 T:Miss Wardlaw's Reel. M:C L:1/8 Q:1/2=104 I: :: :| Z:Jack Campin * www.campin.me.uk * 2009 K:G D|G2BG BgdB|G2BG FAFD|G2BG BgdB|cAFA G2G:| f|g2d=f ecAc|BdFA GFED|g2d=f ecAc|BdDf G2G f|g2d=f ecAc|BdFA GFED|ced=f ecAc|BdFA G2G|] and Can Ye Sew Cushions is further down the page: X:0783 T:Can ye Sew Cushions. M:C L:1/8 I: || || Z:Jack Campin * www.campin.me.uk * 2009 K:G Q:1/4=96 "Slow" G| G>B`g>e dB2 z/G/| G>B(g>e) d3e|d>B(B>A) G>G(G>A)|B>A(A>G) G3G| (G>B)g>e dB2 z/G/|(G>B)g>e d3e|d>BB>A G M:2/4 Q:1/4=128 "Quick" G|BG D2 |A/G/A/B/ BA|B>GD>B|(A>G)G2 |\ B>GD |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 20 May 20 - 01:10 PM Helen (20 May 20 - 12:46 PM) Why do you need to convert the file?I don't, and I doubt it is of much use for the problem here. That is what I was trying to point out in response to those posters above who raised the questions. Nevertheless, it is good to know which tools exist, in case we need them. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 01:32 PM Thanks Grishka, you're right. Sorry, I was a bit confused. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 20 May 20 - 03:16 PM Wow folks - seems like you're on a roll here - I don't pretend to understand that MIDIs and ABCs but hope they help solve the puzzle. Night all - and thank you. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 06:16 PM A quick explanation, John. On Mudcat, most of the regulars probably talk in shorthand about MIDI files and ABC notation. The MIDI files can't be posted in threads so instead the ABC files can be read by knowledgeable people or translated by software back into MIDI files so that it becomes an audio file again, but it also has the advantage of being able to be opened in music notation software so then the music notation can be viewed on screen and printed by anyone. It's a software sleight of hand trick which is useful for a text based forum for sharing music notation among each other. My music notation programme is Noteworthy Composer NWC), a cheapie but a goodie. To find the clock tunes so far, I listened to one of the tunes, then tried to turn it into music notation on NWC by listening phrase by phrase and adding the notes and adjusting the timing of each note until it sounded about right. (Note, I'm not terribly good at identifying tunes and notating them so this is a good brain training exercise for me.) Then, being able to see the music notation on screen, I could look at all of the music in Vol 4 of Aird (because I thought it might be a good place to start as it was published in 1796 and Begone Dull Care is one of the tunes in the book) and then look at the beginning couple of bars of all the tunes in the book until I found one which looked similar. Then I go searching the internet for audio or video files of the tune to check if it sounds similar to the clock tune. Does this mean that I might be correct about Tune # 3 and Tune # 4? Which would mean that my deduction about other tunes being in the same book was correct too? I might not be so lucky with Tunes # 5 & 6. I have to confess, I'm not very taken by the tune of Miss Wardlaw's Reel. If I had been choosing tunes, I don't think that is one that I would have chosen. However, having said that, it might be all in the playing. Hearing it on an audio file is a lot different to the way it would sound in real life with musicians giving it a bit of swing. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 08:45 PM This is a maybe for Tune # 5: Miss Ann Bain's Fancy Audio sample available here: Miss Ann Bain's Fancy |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 21 May 20 - 01:29 AM Helen, That's a really clear explanation - straightforward to follow - thanks for taking the time. The logical approach with the opening sequence of notes makes good sense too: glad it's provide useful mental stimulation in these "locked-down" times! As you can imagine - I've listened to the 7 tunes so many times now that when I hear them played by musicians I get an instant, tingly feeling of recognition: I got that with Codiad yr Ehedydd, Begone Dull Care and Illsley but I'm not getting the same with Can Ye Sew Cushions, Miss Wardlaw's Reel or Miss Ann Bain's Fancy... There could be other tunes, from the book, with similar openings, yes...? I'm convinced your approach is right (spotting patterns, phrases) and it's going to yield results - but I'm not getting the "tinglies" just yet. When this is all done and dusted - there's likely to be an article in this for the Antiquarian Horological Society journal: very happy to credit everyone who has helped identify the tunes :-) Looking forward to the next breakthrough... |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 21 May 20 - 02:03 AM Yes, that's why I keep putting question marks in when I propose a possible tune. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 21 May 20 - 03:03 AM That's great Helen, thanks. I've just sent Joe Offer an email in the hope of joining mudcat as a member - that might make interaction easier. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 21 May 20 - 03:23 AM That's great, John. I was going to suggest that you consider becoming a member. I've been a long time member and I am always learning something new here. It's a good community with a shared interest in blues and folk music, and other music crops up now and then as well. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 22 May 20 - 03:37 AM I've just entered the music notation from Aird's book Volume 4 into Noteworthy Composer for what I think is Tune # 5, Miss Ann Bain's Fancy. When the book's notation is transposed to the Key of C Major from the key of G Major the first four notes and rhythm are almost exactly the same as what I hear on the clock's music mechanism. After that phrase it varies a bit, however there is a limit of the range of notes on the mechanism to take into account. There are only 13 notes because there are 13 bells so the tune has to fit within that range, so, I think that some variation had to be worked out to fit that range of notes. I also know that unless a musician knows the type of a musical piece it is sometimes difficult to play it as other musician would play it. For example a reel or a jig or a strathspey has a specific rhythm or lilt which can be a bit difficult to convey in music notation. A dance musician would see one of those words in the title and know what the accepted form is for that type of music. As I often comment in our sessions, sometimes the written music notation is simply a mnemonic for musicians to know what the notes are, but the tune can actually be played with different emphasis than that which is notated in the score, especially if the music was collected by someone who has heard the tune performed and who is attempting to make a written record of it, e.g. O'Neill's Music of Ireland book, or Donal O'Sullivan's collected works of Turlough O'Carolan, and possibly/probably also Aird's books. So, what I am trying to say is that although Tune # 5 Miss Ann Bain's Fancy does not exactly match what is in the book, I'm leaning more towards the thought that it is very much based on the same tune. To throw another spanner in the works - I hope that phrase doesn't give a Clockmaker a panic attack - collected tunes in the age before recorded music was very much based on the version of a tune heard by a musician who then attempted to copy it. As an example, in colonial Australian times the various musicians would come together to play for dances or concerts and other musicians would try to learn to play the tunes that they liked, but quite often they would only hear the tune once or twice before returning to their home towns, and then variations in the tunes could occur because of how the tunes were remembered by different musicians. This is a core element of the traditional folk process and a famous set of books of Australian (specifically Anglo-Celtic tradition) folk music written and compiled by John Meredith and Hugh Anderson illustrates that. There are variations on the same tunes which were collected by the authors from different musicians who lived at a distance from other musicians, before modern transport and especially before the technology of recording music was available or freely accessible to all of the musicians. So I'm suggesting, John, that you might not get the "tinglies" from some of these tunes because they may not be exactly the same as the music from the clock, but I suspect that the source or inspiration for the tunes could possibly be from Aird's book, Volume 4 and the tunes may have been modified to fit better with the clock music mechanism. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: John the Clockmaker Date: 22 May 20 - 04:53 AM Hi Helen and thank you. I have attempted to "message" direct. Let me know if it comes through... |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 22 May 20 - 05:14 AM Hi John, I've replied to your PM. Look at the top left of the page near the Mudcat logo for the message notification. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Richard Mellish Date: 22 May 20 - 05:44 AM Coming to this a bit late, when it seems a lot of the work has been done. But, for any tunes that remain unidentified, or not identified for certain, I would repeat the suggestion of (temporarily) attaching the mechanism to something that can serve as a sound board; and I would also add the suggestion of (again temporarily) putting a scrap of felt on each of the bells so that they don't go on ringing for so long after they are struck, in order to separate the notes in place of the jumble of sound. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 22 May 20 - 07:10 AM Good suggestions, Richard. Oddly enough, after I heard the slower, pre-cleaning versions I could identify the melody notes to focus on, so when I went back and listened to the post-cleaning versions I found the tinkly overtones a lot less distracting. Like tuning out the background chatter at a crowded pub when you are concentrating on the conversation in your own group of friends. Funny how the brain works, eh? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: cnd Date: 22 May 20 - 10:33 AM I want to say Helen, I'm impressed by the amount of work you've been doing on these, congrats! I would help but I'm no good at transposition or searching for "just" the tune of a song. I will second both of Helen's comments that tunes are likely to be localized and vary some depending on the time and place of their origin, and that sheet music is just the "bones" of a song, and to also bear in mind the restriction of the range of the bells, like she said. Another thing to take into mind is that the idea of key and pitch has changed over time. You can see a fairly lengthy discussion from earlier this year about it here, but the gist of it is that our "C" may not be 200 years ago's "C" |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 22 May 20 - 04:33 PM Aw shucks, thanks cnd, Also about pitch, the bells in the clock mechanism don't all sound to me to be perfect pitch. Technically, it would be a fiddly task to make then all exactly correct, I imagine. Another trick I have been using to tune my ear into the clock tunes while ignoring the tinkly sea of sound is to look at each of the hammers as they hit the bells so that I can focus on the pattern of the melody. I have to admit, Tune # 6 is proving to be a challenge. The slow pre-cleaning tune is not available, and the tune is fairly lively. I'm going to have a go this morning at trying to work out the tune notation. I am also thinking that I've been lucky in my assumption that some of the tunes came from the Aird book. Maybe I won't be so lucky with Tune # 6. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 24 May 20 - 06:39 PM A cry for help. Hi all, I thought I could identify some of the clock tunes but there are a few issues which are making some of the process a bit difficult. Given that the ringing of each of the bells carries on and reverberates it then makes it difficult to isolate the melody from the sea of sound and then do some sort of music notation to copy the melody. John's pianist friend has done some sterling work in writing down music notation for the tunes 3, 4, 5 and 6 and I have attempted to also try to identify the melodies. I will be transcribing both her piano notations and my own attempts into Noteworthy Composer (NWC) so our interpretations can also be compared. Then I can save the NWC files as MIDI files which would make it easier for other people to hear the melodies more clearly than trying to listen to the videos with the ringing sounds. However, I don't have software to convert the MIDI files to ABC Notation and I'm not sure whether there are any free online sites where I can do that. I am not competent at creating ABC Notation, although I could do it very, very slowly. I imagine there are some ABC Notation wizards here at Mudcat, or maybe one of you may have some conversion software. Another issue with the clock tunes that I have is that the rendition on the clock music mechanism does not seem to match the rhythm or note lengths of the tunes that I know or have heard. If you listen to Tune # 2, identified by the EFDSS as Begone Dull Care you may be able to hear that, well, what I usually refer to as "the lilt" is missing. The notes of the tune match but the usual lilt of the tune is absent. I'm sure there is a proper musical term for this. In transcribing the tune into music notation, there would be few dotted notes and half notes, but mainly just whole notes but if you look at the usual music notation for the tune it isn't just plain whole notes. The transcription on the clock music mechanism is a bit pedestrian compared with the lilt and beauty of the tune more commonly known, in my humble opinion. If you get what I'm trying so blunderingly badly to say. A tip: when you are listening to the clock tunes on the video, focus on watching the hammers hit the bells so you will *see* the progression of the melody visually. After listening to the slower pre-cleaning versions that John posted earlier I also found it easier to identify the melodies in the post-cleaning videos more easily, and my brain stopped hearing the tinkly sea of sound so much. At this stage, I haven't finished transcribing all of the melodies into music notation but I'm planning to get stuck into it today and see how far I get. I'm thinking I could be really really nice to one of the moderators and see if the completed MIDI files can be posted on the Mudcat MIDI page. The help needed is for other people to listen to those melodies and try to identify the tunes and/or confirm or deny the tune suggestions I offered up earlier. I'm not fantastic at identifying tunes but I know that a lot of Mudcatters are amazingly knowledgeable about different music and some of you could identify them in an instant if you could hear the melodies more clearly. I hope. Please!! Stay tuned to this thread for when I gain a bit more of a foothold on these MIDI files. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Howard Kaplan Date: 24 May 20 - 11:30 PM Using Noteworthy Composer, it's possible to add a lilt to music that is written without one. In other contexts, that lilt is called "swing", and that's usually a better search term. I learned to do this years ago, and it's a real help. Briefly, you set up an extra track consisting entirely of quarter note rests, and you use tempo adjustments to make them alternately slightly too long and slightly too short. This forces all of the other tracks to follow the same time distortions. If the long rests take twice as long as the short rests do, you get something that sounds like 6/8 time. I often find that something less extreme, 5:3 instead of 2:1, is a good ratio. For more details, look at these forum postings: Topic: Swing rhythm Topic: How to Make NWC Play Jazz (Specific Instructions) Topic: Swing eighth notes |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: cnd Date: 24 May 20 - 11:56 PM Helen -- I've never used it but take a look at Mozart and see if it's what you're looking for? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 25 May 20 - 12:56 AM Thanks Howard and cnd. Howard, as the tunes are very short it doesn't take long to dot a note and halve the next note or vice versa so I took the liberty of doing that earlier on in the timeline of this thread and that's how I arrived at my tentative guesses of three of the tunes: Tune # 3 - Can Ye Sew Cushions? Tune # 4 - Miss Wardlaw's Reel Tune # 5 - Miss Ann Bain's Fancy I don't know a lot about strathspeys but using the change of emphasis, i.e. creating that sense of swing, gives me the impression that # 5 might be a strathspey. As I also said earlier I was making a bit of a deductive leap to see whether one of the books published before 1834 which contained Tune # 2 Begone Dull Care, may also contain some of the other tunes. I tried to identify the first few bars of each tune and then investigated the Aird book Vol 4 to see if any tunes seemed to match. I really don't know whether I am way off beam with any of my guesses. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: cnd Date: 25 May 20 - 02:14 AM I've been trying to figure out reasons these songs would be together. This is purely speculation, but the only place I've found the first two songs together is in compilations of British unit bands. Could it be possible that these were 7 of the songs of a Welsh battalion band? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 25 May 20 - 02:50 AM Well, cnd, I found Begone Dull Care, and Can Ye Sew Cushions?, Miss Wardlaw's Reel, and Miss Ann Bain's Fancy in Vol 4 of Aird's book which was published in 1796 (I think that's correct), so the tunes could have been compiled in a book of Airs of Scotland, Wales, England and maybe Ireland. I didn't find Codiad yr Ehedydd in the Aird books Vols 3 or 4 unless it is there with an alternative title. I just looked at the title pages of both vols 3 & 4 Title page Aird Vol 3 and there is a big banner on both which says "Humbly dedicated to the volunteer and defensive bands of Great Britain and Ireland", so a good bit of deduction on your part, cnd! Can Ye Sew Cushions? was collected by Robert Burns at around the same time - not exactly sure of the date. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Jack Campin Date: 25 May 20 - 05:31 AM I think the ABC converter at mandolintab.net is back online -that will easily turn the ABC of the Aird tunes into staff notation or MIDI. I put all of Aird's collections on my website, in ABC. They were by far the best selling and most influential tune publications of that generation. They'd have been the first place to look for any non-specialist anywhere in the British Isles. It would be worth looking behind the selections to work out how this version might have been done - seems an odd idea to just use a random contiguous selection from a book, but that seems to have been much the way Aird himself operated at times. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 May 20 - 02:01 AM Here are some of the tunes: |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 26 May 20 - 02:55 AM Thanks Joe. You're a legend! Helen |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: cnd Date: 26 May 20 - 02:34 PM Converted to ABCs: X:1 T:Mystery clock tune 3 - pianist's version Z:abc-copyright Copyright © 2020 M:3/4 L:1/8 Q:1/4=120 K:G clef=treble D2 G2- GF |G2 A4 |D2 B2- BA |B2 d4 |c2 B2- BA |B2 G2 c2 |B2 A2- AG |AB A4 |d2 d4 |c2 B4 |A2 G2 c2 |\ B2 A4 |d2 d4 |c2 B4 |A2 G2 c2 |B2 A4 |D2 G2- GF |G2 A4 |D2 B2- BA |B2 d4 |c2 B2- BA |B2 G2 c2 |\ B2 A2- AG |F2 G2- G3/2 z1/2 |] |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: cnd Date: 26 May 20 - 02:35 PM Tune 4 X:1 T:Mystery clock tune 4 - pianist's version Z:abc-copyright Copyright © 2020 M:3/4 L:1/8 Q:1/4=120 K:D clef=treble d2 df A2 |B2 Bd G2 |FA DF GE |D2 F2 D2 |c2 cA cd |ec dB A2 |f2 fd fg |af ge d2 |c2 AB cd |\ ec dB A2 |Bd GB Ac |d4- d3/2 z1/2 |] |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: cnd Date: 26 May 20 - 02:36 PM Tune 5 X:1 T:Mystery clock tune 5 - Sue's version Z:abc-copyright Copyright © 2020 M:4/4 L:1/8 Q:1/4=120 K:F clef=treble C2 D2 E2 F2 |A2 B2 G2 A2- |A2 d2 B2 c2 |A2 B2 G2 A2 |A2 B2 G2 A2 |F2 G2 E2 F2 |C2 D2 F2 F2- |F2 E4 F2- |\ F3/2 z1/2 z6 |] |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: cnd Date: 26 May 20 - 02:37 PM Tune 6 X:1 T:Mystery Clock Tune 6 Z:abc-copyright Copyright © 2020 M:6/8 L:1/8 Q:1/4=120 K:G clef=treble GBG FED |FED EGE |DCB, CEC |B,DG A,GF |G3 GBd |cBA GBG |AFD EGB |AGF D3 |\ GBG AFD |EGE DCB, |CEC B,DG |G2- G1/2-G1/8 z3/8 z3 |] |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 26 May 20 - 03:30 PM Thanks cnd, that's brilliant!! |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 28 May 20 - 12:40 AM Any ideas, anyone? I'm really interested to know whether any of you also get the sense of a strathspey or a jig or a reel for a couple of the tunes if they are played slightly differently than the regular rhythm on the clock mechanism. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 31 May 20 - 03:25 PM Any ideas, folks? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: cnd Date: 31 May 20 - 04:51 PM I've tried a few tune finders, and while some have come with a lot of results, I haven't been super happy with what they've turned out. John, are you sure your songs start at the right point? Or is there the chance that what we have as the "start" could be the middle? As for tunes, here's some I found that are somewhat convincing; let me know what you think: - tune 3: Dùthaich nan craobh (Land of the Trees) ? - tune 4: All Hands Hoy ? The tune finder I was using didn't work for 6 and didn't come up with anything I liked for 5 |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 31 May 20 - 06:25 PM Thanks cnd. My problem is it is a lot more difficult to compare tunes by listening to one and then the other. It's a lot easier playing Spot the Difference between two pictures and between two tunes, IMHO. I can hear similarities with your two suggestions, but ... The more I listen to the style of Tune 5, the more I think it might be a hymn or sacred song. The second and third last notes have middle C added which is not in the pianist's version on the MIDI files, but listening to that ending on the clock it definitely has a hymn-like quality. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 31 May 20 - 06:45 PM A question for John the Clockmaker. Does or did the clock belong in a private house or a public building, and would there be any clues as to why those tunes were chosen for the clock? For example, in which country the clock is/was housed - I assumed England but it could just as easily have been somewhere else in the British Isles or elsewhere. If it was from a public building, the nature of the business or activity at the building might give us a clue. Worst case scenario, it was in a conservatorium of music and the tunes could be from anywhere in the world and be of any genre you could think of. LOL At this stage, the quest is proving very difficult. Helen |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: John the Clockmaker Date: 01 Jun 20 - 04:35 AM Hi Helen, cnd, The clock has been in the same family for 100 years now. I think they're farmers - I'll ask next time I speak to the owner. So no - no country house link. The best clue we have is the maker and place of manufacture - Rowell of Oxford (the shop in the city centre lasted until 2019 - but the connection with the family is long since broken) http://www.rowellofoxford.co.uk/ https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/18073165.historic-jeweller-rowell-oxford-close/ https://www.facebook.com/RowellofOxford/ The start of each tune is very clearly marked by a break in the pins on the barrel - so no ambiguity there. John |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 01 Jun 20 - 04:25 PM Thanks for the info, John and for the images on flickr. photos of the clock & the pianist's transcripts At this stage I think identifying the tunes might be as much a stroke of luck as it will be a process of elimination by working through possible tunes. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:34 PM I've just done a Mudcat no-no by starting a "clickbait" (not really!) thread asking people to come back to this thread and listen to the MIDI files. I suspect that some of the people who came into the thread in its early days tried to hear the melodies on the clock music mechanism videos and gave up so I'm hoping they will come back and have another go at trying to identify the tunes by listening to the audio files. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: John the Clockmaker Date: 02 Jun 20 - 02:11 AM Thanks so much Helen. I've emailed the Rowell shop this morning - so we'll see what comes of that. Interesting what cnd says about tune 5 - it being a hymn/sacred. Piano Sue said the same thing so I have highlighted this to my Church of England contact - but heard nothing back, yet. J |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 02 Jun 20 - 02:23 AM Also, John, I was wondering if you have let the English Folk Dance Society know that the MIDI files are available. They might recognise some more of the tunes if they can hear the audio files. Tune 3 still sounds familiar to me. Like a song I have heard before but I just can't get a fix on any of the lyrics. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: John the Clockmaker Date: 02 Jun 20 - 04:33 AM Helen, Yep - can confirm EFDSS (or more specifically the Vaughan Williams Memorial library) have access to the midi files and other recent findings. A lot of their people are off on furlough at the moment so it may be a while before we hear back... J |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 24 Aug 20 - 05:54 PM I'm reopening this thread in the hope that someone might be able to identify the mystery clock tunes. Joe posted the links to the midi files of the unidentified tunes on 26 May 20 at 02:01 AM. I had an email from the OP who told me the tunes are still not identified, so take the challenge and see what you can find out, eh? Tune # 3 is still bugging me. Is it a sea chanty? A hymn? A dance tune? A Welsh or Scottish tune? Tune # 4 sounds like a lively dance tune. Tune # 5 could be a hymn Tune # 6 is a pretty and lively tune. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Mysha Date: 25 Aug 20 - 08:26 AM Hi, I didn't quite get all information out of the conversation, thus I have to ask: - Did you find out what notes were available and what weren't? - Is this known to be a unique piece, or were the makers known for making such clocks? Etc. Bye Mysha |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 25 Aug 20 - 05:02 PM Mysha, John the Clockmaker would be able to answer your question about what notes were available, but also if you look at the video links posted early in the thread you can see the clock's musical mechanism with the little bells which are struck by the hammers. I could be wrong but I think each tune has its own set of bells so each musical mechanism would have been set up differently according to the notes of its own tune. Look at the videos to see what I'm trying to say. As I understand it the clock maker was known for making such clocks. I'm just guessing tbut it's possible that this one may have been made especially for the household, with tunes specifically relating to the preferences of the people in the house. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Mysha Date: 26 Aug 20 - 03:50 AM Helen, I'll try again tomorrow, as I apparently was too tired yesterday, resulting in 14 tones from 13 bells. At least that's what I got from the musician's transcription of 6 and 5. Anyway, the point was that some people suggested the scale might not be well-tempered, but the transcription doesn't seem to indicate that. Though indeed some of the songs are in different keys, there are no notations for other perfect tones. However, it's apparently an economical set: It doesn't include half notes that are not necessary for the keys and melodies played. That brings us to the other question: Though there may have been more pieces, they were apparently not made so often that it paid to have a standard mechanism, including tones that weren't actually used. Well, matters of size and material would play a part too, I guess. Still, if more were made, there could have been documentation for other specimen. Even if this was a one-off, more may be known about the tunes in general use in these clocks. Bye Mysha |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 25 Apr 21 - 03:07 AM I read this recent article in the Australian ABC News site: The 700-year history of the musical alarm clock |
| Share Thread: |