Foul-mouthed Folkies

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:00 PM

And my bad for the "BS section" part. We've had numerous threads about racist songs. Not so much about "folkies", though.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:34 PM

It seems to have become practice of deleting commenets about racist languge but leving the racist language in
I'll try to work that one out
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jeri
Date: 29 May 20 - 08:50 PM

Jim, attempt to locate a clue.
The thread title is "foul-mouthed FOLKIES

What people do you wish to discuss?

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:01 AM

I regard racism as "foul mouthed" as do others whose posting you have deleted Jeri - can't really see your problem ("blue" is a reference to the pencil used to make deletions in my vocabulary)
You choose to delete the reaction to the term "Darkie" yet are happy to allow the word stand, in all its glory
Yeah - well !!
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:27 AM

Grow up Jim, my anecdote concerned the words Hamish used and I suppose many here see them as foul.....but that was the language of the time. Hamish and indeed all the revival folk singers used phrases which would be deemed by some as "inappropriate", but F'ing and C'ing was rarely used, as most folk singers had more wit and vocabulary than to swear for audience affect.
Btw Hamish was one of the nicest and kindest people that I've met. and is widely regarded as such.
Take your obsession down amongst the "real" members.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:34 AM

I'm not debating the use of language that may have been acceptable at the time of the Notting Hill Riots or Enoch Powell Ake - it shouldn't be necessary as those events say enough - and were not allowed to anyway
Move on before you close the thread
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 20 - 06:13 AM

Sandman / Dick,

I know exactly where both churches are situated having entered this world about half a mile distant from one. I was querying the size of the area in which you seem to believe the bells could be heard.

Wikipaedia ? I Never use it.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 06:33 AM

"believe the bells could be heard."
The definition was set long before the roar of London traffic, when the sound of bells would easily carry those distances on a calm day - or night
When I was a child you could easily hear the sounds of ships horns from the Mersey at least across the those distance - one of the great features of New-Year's Eve
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 07:27 AM

Re - thread topic
It was said that a coule of the Clubs Robert Burs frequented, 'The Tarbloton Drinking Club' and 'The Fencibles', had the motto,
"Sing a song, tell a story or put your prick on the table"
This is not a new 'problem. by any means
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 07:41 AM

Just remembered - Crochallan Fencibles
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Shug Hanlan
Date: 30 May 20 - 08:38 AM

Thanks everone. Only on Mudcat could the topic go from folkies swearing, the pros & cons of F'ing & C'ing, Steve Earle, a joke about deaf guys, language last heard on repeats of "On The Buses", the acoustic properties of East London and Rabbie Burn's prick!

As a way of thanks send me a personal email, and, once I'm allowed to get to the Post Office, I'll send you one of my wee books. FUCKIN' FREE.

https://lizziemlove.wixsite.com/kerfufflepress

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 10:43 AM

Look forward to the world opening up again Shug
Might be able to reciprocate in kid
There's a lovely article here by the somewhat prim Edith Fowk on Bawdy Canadian Folk Songs
I haven't got round to digitising the Australian study of children's 'dirty' songs, 'Shocking, Shocking, Shocking'

Pehaps we should take note of the wrning given by Iona and Peter Opie in their book on Children's Folklore, 'The Lore and Langhiage of Schoolchildren:

"Genuinely erotic verse, however, is unusual. That there are villains among children, as among adults, the News of the World offers frequent testimony; and from somewhere the ogre child acquires his strange salacious prescriptions, taking criminal pleasure in pressing them on juniors, and inscribing them on the walls of the school lavatory.
But we are not here discussing delinquents. The usual group of youngsters whispering together, passing some verse to each other and giggling, though they refuse to tell what it is, are probably interested in nothing more sordid than the deeds of nature, an intimate garment, or a crude word."

Pp. 95-96, Chapter 6, ‘Parody and Impropriety,   Lore and Language of Schoolchildren.Oxford at Clarendon Press Publishers 1959

They knew a thing or one, those people :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 11:28 AM

One of my favourite Burns Songs - from @Merry Muses'
I wonder how it woul have fared at the nads of some of out folkie Mary Whitehouses :-)
Jim

4. WAD YE DO THAT? (Tune: John Anderson, My Jo)
M'Naught (MMC 'll) referred to this piece as "An old song before Burns's time," It is certainly the original of Burns' song "Lass, When Your Mither Is Frae Hame" (Aldine, II, p. 156), which Scott Douglas referred to as "a silly paraphrase" of the present song.
The tune, "John Anderson, My Jo," dates back at least to the middle of the 17th century. It was certainly a favorite with Burns, who also knew it as the tune to a bawdy song of that title (MMC '59, pp. 114-115) on which he based his own song of the same name (SMM, #260), as well as the tune of "Our Gudewife's Sae Modest", another piece of bawdry collected by Burns (see MMC '59, p. 135).
The present text was learned from MMC '59, p. 122, and the tune from MacColl's father.

1. Gudewife, when your gudeman's frae hame,
Might I but be sae bauld,
As come to your bed-chamber
When winter nichts are cauld;
As come to your bed-chamber
When nichts are cauld and wat,
And lie in your gudeman's stead:
Wad ye do that?

2. Young man, an ye should be so kind,
When oor gudeman's frae hame,
As come to my bed-chamber
Where I am laid my lane;
And lie in oor gudeman's stead,
I will tell you what,
He fucks me five times ilka nicht,
Wad ye do that?

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 May 20 - 12:48 PM

I think the best word to describe that Scots piece, Jim, is explicit. It is a dialogue very much in the traditional style and there are many such pieces. Fairmtoon labourers of that period would not have found that bawdy foul language. It would have been seen as a true depiction of life.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:06 PM

"very much in the traditional style"
The description in the notes suggest it is probably traditional - explicit it certainly is
Fairmtoun Labourers, like navvies, were capably and willing to use language far in excess of that - not at the Kirk maybe
Unlike Wales, where the chapel succeeded in virtually killing off the tradition, the 'Presies' only succeeded in driving it underground, where it flourished
Ireland is only now discovering the all-but suppressed 'blue-vein in its tradition
The religious suppression of the real nature of the tradition merits a study in itself
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 30 May 20 - 01:13 PM

I don't think these verses were penned specifically for Fairmtoon labourers Steve...…..more to amuse his well heeled aristo supporters.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 May 20 - 05:07 PM

Jim,

Foghorns across water, Mersey in your case, Thames in mine bear no resemblance to church bells through a few miles of a built up city.

It is still my opinion that a cockney would pronounce the word FUCKIN' rather than FACKING

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 03:14 AM

The hard U is a Liverpool usage - the Irish favour 'fecking' (also used in Liverpool due to the high Irish influence
The toffs us 'fawking' because they think it makes them sound superior
I never heard 'Facking' - north of south of the Thames - a dyslexic form of mining, maybe?
They don't know what the word means in Wales - they don't go in for that sort of thing since The Chapel took over!
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 May 20 - 03:31 AM

The changing of the vowels is simply a device to make cursing seem more acceptable.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 04:03 AM

Cursing is perfectly acceptable in most societies by us 'lower orders' - lie sex, those who don't understand or get enough of the basic needs of life (like sex) - show their resentment by outlawing them
Offending women say is offensive, no matter what language is used
C*** used offesively is not offensive in its meaning, comparing women to their sexual parts is
Words are just words - no-one should have the right to judge them
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 31 May 20 - 04:03 AM

I think that is Bow Locks which are well within the sound of one set of Bow Bells.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 May 20 - 04:47 AM

"C*** used offesively is not offensive in its meaning, comparing women to their sexual parts is
Words are just words - no-one should have the right to judge them
Jim "

That is nonsensical ...Jim   the words are used by intellectual inadequates as terms of abuse. Leaving aside the misogyny, bastard is used often in folk song, especially parody or contemporary folk, usually in reference to perceived political failings.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 31 May 20 - 05:08 AM

If I'm performing in a folk club and some calls out for Dirty Old Town, I will politely refuse, rather than shout back 'Fuck off, you cunt!

If the same person or another person stopped me in the street and demanded money, I may well say 'Fuck off, you cunt'.

Words are definitely not just words; they have multiple meanings, nuances and contexts.

On the other hand, I don't think saying 'Fuck off, you cunt' to an attacker betrays any intellectual inadequacy on my part.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 05:34 AM

"bastard" like "lunatic" "knacker" and even "n****r" were once just descriptive words - their replacement by better terms has made made of them unacceptable
C***, fuck, shit, bollocks etc are slang words - now to be found in the New Penguin Dictionary of Slang'
None of these words are offensive when used inoffensively - that is in the mind of the would-be censor - it is the intention behind them that makes them unacceptable
There was a time up to bery recently when contraceptives and women's sanitary protection could not be discussed publicly - specially here in 'Holy Ireland' - now they are commonplace, no matter what the Mrs Grundys of this world think
Gordon is spot on
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Gaffer
Date: 31 May 20 - 09:45 AM

When Conwy Folk Club started in the late nineties is was on a ship moored in the harbour, known as "The Frigate", prompting the question: "Whose idea was it to have a friggin' folk club in a folkin' frigate?"
Would that qualify?
Gaff

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 May 20 - 10:45 AM

I disagree Steve, what have a woman's vagina, a person born to unmarried parents, or the sex act, to do with responses to a robber a bully, or a conservative?

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 20 - 10:56 AM

THis will continue to go in circles until someone explains why objecting to perfectly usable, centuries old slang and vernacular words is no more than a matte of personal prejudice
Burn all the slang dictionaries I say
In my experience, people who climb on high-horses such as this are the first to scream "personal infringement of free speech' if someone suggests they tone down their language on issues such as race or religion- we have been cloe to several in the last couple of days
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 May 20 - 11:10 AM

I just think it's very lazy speech, when there are so many good expressive alternative words about that are perhaps not classed as offensive or foul-mouthed. That's not so say that I never swear, or that the occasional use is never justified, but "bad language" has become over-used.
As for using it in folk clubs:no good reason for it: a witty put-down of an over-vociferous heckler is far more effective at silencing him/her (oh yes, there are "hers" too!) Long live the art of repartee!

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 31 May 20 - 11:11 AM

I don't think you are intellectually inadequate, Akenaton. Therefore I think you are being provocatively disingenuous. As I'm sure you're aware, words change their meanings over time. Calling someone a 'fucking cunt' is not (usually) a sexual reference, but simply an insult, devoid of semantic content. Calling someone a 'bastard' is not (usually) a reference to a person's immediate lineage, but is simply a word to stress that that person is not particularly nice. And to get back on topic, I wouldn't dream of using those words in a folk club, but have no problem using them in an ad hoc discussion on sociolinguistics. That being said, I'm rather bored with this now, so I'm out.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 May 20 - 11:20 AM

Sorry Gordon, getting my Steves and Gordons all mixed up...don't know if my arsehole's punched or bored now!    Nicely put Sir, and I didn't mean to imply that you were at all inadequate.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 03:31 AM

"I just think it's very lazy speech,"
On the contrary - it is extremely - sometimes too robust
The beauty of out languages is their richness and scope, ranging from strongly the 'in your face' unsubtlty of songs, from:

Th'owd chap came ower t' bank, bawling for his tea,
Saw a pair o' mucky clogs where his owd clogs should be,
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here! see?
How come this mucky pair o' clogs where my owd clogs should be?
Y'owd bugger, ye daft bugger, can't you plainly see?
Them's just a couple of pickle-jars me owd mam sent to me,
I've been ower hills and dales, me lass,
And many a grassy moor,
But girt hob-nails on a pickle-jar I've never seen before

Th'owd chap came ower t' bank, bawling for his tea,
Saw a coat on back o' t' door, where his owd coat should be,
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this coat on t’ back o' tf door, where my owd coat should be?
Y'owd bugger, ye daft bugger, can't you plainly see?
That's just an owd dish-clout me old mam sent to me.
I've Been Ower Hills And Dales, Me Lass,
And Many A Grassy Moor,
But Buttons On A Dish-Clout I've Never Seen Before.

Th'owd chap came ower t' bank, bawling for his tea,
Saw a head on t' pillow where his owd head should be,
Come here wife, come here wife, what’s this here I see?
How come this head on t' pillow, where my owd head shoald be?
Y’owd bugger, ye daft bugger, can't you plainly see?
That's just a home-grown turnip me owd mam sent to me.
I've been ower hills and dales, me lass,
And many a grassy moor,
But girt big teeth in a turnip I've neves seen before.

Th'owd chap came ower t' bank, bawling for his tea,
Saw a pair of hairy cods where his own cods shoald be.
Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this pair of hairy cods where my own cods shoald be ?
Y”owd bugger, ye daft bugger, can’t yoa plainly see?
That's just a couple of home-grown spuds me owd mam sent to me.
I've been ower hills and dales, me lass,
And many a grassy moor,
But home-grown spuds with hairs on
I've never seen before.

Th' owd chap came ower t' bank, bawling for his tea,
Saw a girt big standing prick where his owd prick should be,
Come here wife, come here wife, what’s this here I see?
How come this girt big standing prick where my owd prick should be?
Y'owd bugger, ye daft bugger, can't you plainly see?
That's just a home-grown carrot me owd mam sent to me.
I've been ower hills and dales, me lass,
And many a grassy moor,
But a carrot diggin' a great big hole I’ve never seen before.

....to Ophelia's "nothing" (between her legs)
Both are considered obscene to some - I think they have their own strengths and beauty, while at the same time being precise and very visual
Much of our folk vernacular is based on the ability to shock - particularly its narrative humour

Irish society was strictly controlled up to comparatively recently thanks to the influence of The Church (now very much weakened by the revelations of widespread child rape covered up, probably for well over a century, by the hierarchy)
It is refreshing to see changes we believed would never come about
Shortly after we moved here over 20 years ago we went to see a short film (now, in my opinion, regarded a classic)
It ran for about ten minutes and was totally silent, it depicted a schoolteacher entering a classroom to find someone had scrawled on the board; "MR CASEY IS A CNUT"
Furously he searches out the culprit and when he discovers the culprit, drags him to the front of the class and forces him to write the sentence over and over again in the hope the child gets the spelling right - he fails to
I despair, the teacher grabs the chalk, cleans off what the child has written and scrawls in high letters, "MR CASEY IS A CUNT" - just as the Mother Superior headmistress of the school walks though the door - the nun collapses in horror
That, for me, is bawdy humour at its very best
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 07:57 AM

Above seems to have a "7 Drunken nights" connection, no doubt!

Ray

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:09 AM

Well,

that connection must have taken a lot of working out.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:17 AM

"Above seems to have a "7 Drunken nights" connection, no doubt!"
I's a Lancashire version from Beckett Whitehead, presumably sat on by the BBC
It came from a file in Ewan and Peggy's home that were remembered to have been collected by Ewan and Joan Littlewood in the 1940s for a programme entitled 'The Song Hunters' - I wouldn't think the BBC allowed it's use, there are no recordings of te Programme existing
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 08:53 AM

Well that song is indeed bawdy, but manages to make its point without any Fs or Cs, but plenty of innuendo.
I think Brian Peters also has a version which has only 6 nights in it (the 7th left to the imagination??)

I was going to mention "bugger" earlier on: I was told it was a swear word when I was a kid and not to use it, but then, that it was a term of endearment in Norfolk and other areas - as in "ee's a roight good ol' bugger". And then there's the other meaning...

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 09:16 AM

I assume you're a scot from your chosen identy Tattie (could be wrong - maybe you have trouble finding a good hairdresser (-: )
I I put Burns's ' 'Wad You do That' up earlier - do you find that offensive?
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:02 AM

Scots by birth and country I've lived in for over 30 years, but spent the other half of my life in England, Jim.
I do need a haircut, but then so does most of the population since lockdown! (If they still have hair to cut!)

I'm a big fan of Burns' poetry and song, and have heard seen and heard at least some of the Merry Muses performed. No, I wouldn't find that poem offensive, nor the other alternative version of "John Anderson, My Jo" but they would be unlikely to be sung in the middle of an average folk club night: more likely reserved for the Burns season (which here goes on for about 6 weeks from soon after Hogmanay until near end of February!)
My husband belongs to a couple of all-male Burns clubs, where such songs maybe get more of a regular airing than they do in mixed company, although I have several female friends who sing that other John Anderson with great relish! Not one I do myself, but not for any prudish reasons - just that I know others do it better.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:39 AM

last week i had this idea about a George Formby that didn't bugger about with double entendres.


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/sam-sam-the-lavatory-man

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:48 AM

"My Jo" but they would be unlikely to be sung in the middle of an average folk club night"
That may be true - I believe it to be a pity if it is
WE hared it regularly because Ewan sang it whenever he felt like it - I can never remember anybody protesting or walking out in disgust - but The Singers' was a serious folk club and recognised as such, which is why we ot loads of young students from he States I'm not suggesting for a minute that singers should nip down to their local Care Home to entertain the residents with these songs but I do belive we should ask ourselves is it us or them that have the problems
I'e told the story far too often, but I remember being told by Ewan how, when he first sang long ballads in public he worried about "putting the audience off"
He used to sing 'Gil Morris in two halved until an irate regular told him, "it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop"
It transpired he was far more worried about long ballads than they were
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 01:42 PM

No, I don't have a problem with people singing these songs per se, or per anything. That's as they were written.
But going back to the original remit of the thread, I see no place for liberally peppering on-stage "banter" with multiple Fs or Cs. That's what I meant by "lazy".

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 03:29 AM

I meant to reply to this last but retied from the garden one of the walking wounded
"banter"
To a degree, this has always been been a part of some performers performance - (others chose to chuck-up over the front row of the audience) - I never remember foul-mouthedness, but bawdy innuendo is part of out traditions
What did disturb me was when the clubs became refuges for fourth rate would-be comedians not good enough to make in on the Working-mans club scene - robust (I refuse to call dictionary-based words that have been part of our vocabulary, "foul") language became a part of this, but, after 'Lady Chatterly' that was general - the language was out in the open, whereas, previously society had driven it underground
You only need to look into what was happening in real life in stiff-necked Victorian Society where socail reformers were using the children they were 'saving' prostitutes and to condemn a child to the care of the church was to plunge him or hear into a woerld of institutionalised violence and debauchery - that continued until it was finally exposed in the latter half of the twentieth century and is not yet fully understood

I served the first five years of my working life on the Liverpool docks, where such language was almost obligatory if you ere to be fully accepted; I wouldn't use it at home because my parents had been conditioned by the church not to use it, but they were both aawre of it and both, in their different ways, even respected
My mother was a gentle, humourous and totally inoffensive woman who, when you asked what was for dinner, would reply when under pressure, "Cow's cock and hairy bacon"
When I took my first teetering steps as a singer she heard me practicing and said, "If you were singing for shit, you would't get the smell of it" (she lived long enough (just) to quite like it and come out to listen to me)
My dad adored and even studied the rich variation of our language (he was a navvy who spent his life where the air was permanently blue)
It was he who pointed out the meaning and significance of 'Ophelia's "nothing"'

This 'foul' language is a part of what we are and where we have been - I believe it only becomes 'bad' when it is used unnecessarily gratuitously, or when it is used to insult and demean - 'shocking' people is part of our culture, particularly through humour (It's well worth reading what Gershon Legman had to say about it - or working your way through he two Vance Randolph books)

That it is 'always with us' was driven home to me one night in our local pub in Kirkby (Liverpool) when I sat near to a middle-aged couple of regulars - usually quiet and reserved - and particularly 'well-spoken'
They were quietly having a blazind domestic row under their breaths, when suddenly she said audibly enough for everyone to hear, "All you ever think of is your belly and what hangs under it" - I don't think you can beat that as a put-down
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 04:15 AM

I think Tattie Bogle is quite correct. The words themselves are perfectly valid......the trouble arises when these words are used as terms of abuse or as Tattie pointed out as shock tactics by some on stage performers.   Jim speculates that these words are in every day usage among working class people, but thankfully that usage is diminishing, but in so called modern comedy the misuse of language is increasing alarmingly.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 04:29 AM

You have no idea whether or not it is diminishing Ake - there are no reports of this or maybe you can link us to some
Our personal experience of it is no guide - it's is now generally used on respectable and widely viewed programmes like Q.I. and 'Have I Got News For You - sometimes with a bleep, sometimes not, but like the 'Little People' in Ireland, "they're there just the same"
We are now experiencing a blast of fresh air running through everyday things that were once taboo - it becomes part of progress
A SONG FROM THE DARK DAYS when hypocrisy ruled OK
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 05:07 AM

No I am not looking for an argument but is this an example of singers singing songs from their own culture in their own language?

Bearing in mind Peggy's reaction to a Londoner's attempt to sing a song from the American South many years back I wonder how she could do this with a straight face.

Is that the hypocrisy that you refer to Jim?

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 05:52 AM

"singing songs from their own culture in their own language?
Wrong again on all counts
Peggy reacted in exactly the same way to an East end lad trying to sound like black chain gang convict as Alan Lomax did when he turned up and heard Ewan and Bert trying to sound like Woodie and Big Bill - he demanded to know what they were doing about their own beautiful repertoire of native songs
Ewan and Bert took it seriously and the revival flourished as did our understanding and enjoyment of our native cultures despite the Joanie clones and Bobby bleaters
The policy was never an expectation for anybody other than Singers club members - it was formally accepted by the Audience Committee - thank Christ it was otherwise we'd be inundated by mid Atlantic accents
It was never a case of regional accents - I sing songs from Sunderland to East Sussex - even from Scotland and Ireland when I can Anglicise them,   as did Ewan, Carthy - and every revival singer I knew
Peggy sang in a 'neutral American' accent' - she still does with her traditional material

What on earth is hypocritical about that ?
This has no lace here and should stop now, but I hpe these ostings are left intact to save me the trouble of having to repeat them AGAIN
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 06:34 AM

I suspect that I am much closer to my working class roots than you are Jim, being still "on the tools" and mixing with large numbers of building trade operatives on a daily basis.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Kenny B(Inactive)
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 10:05 AM

Ake
A succinct and balanced comment

The people who worked, and still do, in the shipyards and building trades in Scotland are certainly respected for "keepin a civil tongue in their heids" rather than the foul mouthed "would be" bully boys and barrack room lawyers. From personal experience it is the same in all parts of the British Isles and further abroad.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 10:16 AM

Jim,

I clicked on the link in your posting. Have to admit that I couldn't listen all the way through. I just found the singing laughable.

Different strokes for different folks.

Read your last line above. Does that statement make sense?

As for having to repeat things it might help if you didn't insist on always putting down observations made by people who were regularly in the presence of E & P in the late fifties early sixties before the existence of the Singers Club. AND before your involvement.

Wishing you a happy lock down.

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 11:34 AM

"I just found the singing laughable."
I'm sure you did Hoot - I would have been disappointed if you liked it
Can't make out why it's still available 60 odd years after it was made and half that long since the death of the singer - nowt as queer as folk eh?
" "keepin a civil tongue in their heids"
Mustst be a different crowd than those I worked with on the Liverpool docks
I spent a great deal of drinking time with an Glaswegian ex-shipyard worker named Jimmy Reid at one time he was a bit of a 'barrack-room lawyer' who would't bare his bum for the bosses and he told a mean dirty joke   
Takes all sorts
Jim

Subject: RE: Foul-mouthed Folkies
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

If people don't think words have specific meaning, or only meanings they alone understand, then good luck ordering from a takeaway.

' “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.” '