BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 07:49 PM

By independent bodies I mean people who are distanced from the emotions of a case, that's all. I get sick to death of sensationalist and teary interviews of victims on the telly, not to speak of police officers of the Cressida Dick ilk pontificating on the morals of cases (the woman responsible for the death of Jean-Paul Menezes, lest we forget)... Justice is not served by things like that. Dick's comment didn't dot the "i"s or cross the "t"s but it did sort of hit the nail on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:38 PM

And my point is that ‘independent bodies’ - juries, as suggested by Dick - have no influence on the sentence handed down to a convicted offender, that is the judge’s responsibility guided, informed, and limited by statute. Thank goodness too - I find the concept of an unqualified jury being involved in the setting of sentences, and thus making the possibility of Daily Mail justice even more likely, very worrying indeed.

If, by ‘independent bodies’, you mean a panel of suitably professionally-qualified individuals whose responsibility is to make decisions on sentencing based on the offender’s past record, behaviour whilst detained, response to education/treatment, etc., don’t we already have that very thing in the form of parole-boards?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:04 PM

I did say that release should not be automatic, and that there will always be a few people who can never be released. I am railing against an emotional approach to sentencing and punishment. Dick's point was that we remove the subjectivity by handing decisions to independent bodies. At least, that's how I read it. Dick will correct me if I've got that wrong. It can't be perfect, but at least we can avoid Daily Mail justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:51 PM

‘Return-offend’? Bloody predictive text! Re-offend!!

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:49 PM

I get what you said, Steve, but protection of potential victims has to come first - it’s not ‘vengeance and lynch mentality’ to want to protect children from kidnap, rape, torture and murder, surely?

The kind of people who commit that kind of heinous crime seldom do it ‘just the once’, they Often re-offend repeatedly. Unless and until some suitable ‘treatment’ is found - whatever it may consist of - to ensure they don’t return-offend, what other alternative is there to ‘throwing the keys away?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:26 PM

I read the sentiment of Dick's comment as saying that we remove the anger, the vengeance and the lynch mentality from the way we treat perpetrators by resort to as objective a system as we can muster. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:42 PM

So the jury system has little or no relevance to your ‘let’s throw the keys away brigade’ comment does it, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:41 PM

But sentences aren’t set by juries, they are set by statute and dispensed by judges. So the jury system has little or no relevance to your ‘let’s throw the keys away brigade’ does it, Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:43 PM

That is exactly right, Dick. When I posted what I did I was scared of a backlash, but you have said just the right thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:56 PM

"I wonder if paedophilia could be classed as a psychotic mental illness?"

This may be unfair to psychotic people. Some psychoses are inherited disorders of the brain, but the sufferer would never sexually attack a child.

The best way to answer this question would be to read books where experts study the life histories of a good many pedophiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:22 PM

and I do have to ask meself whether I'd feel the same way were a loved one of mine to be a victim... quote
that is why we have a jury system to try and get objectivity and impartiality

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:19 PM

Civilised countries can't have justice systems predicated on anger, vengeance or a lynch mentality. For me, the bottom line when it comes to keeping people in prison is twofold: would release endanger the public, and would release threaten the convict? If no to both, then release should always be a possibility. I didn't say automatic. We have to accept two things, that we don't always know what motivates the worst kinds of offenders to do what they do (someone mentioned mental illness...), and we do know that there are examples of perpetrators of the most vicious crimes who have turned themselves round and even made contributions towards reducing crime, especially among the young. So I'm not a member of the let's-throw-the keys-away brigade. There will always be a few people who we can never let out, and I do have to ask meself whether I'd feel the same way were a loved one of mine to be a victim...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:57 AM

When I was a Prison Visitor and visited in many prisons around the UK, including Category 'A' ones (for serious offenders) the Prison Officers told me often that they had several mentally ill inmates who in their opinion should have been in a different type of Institution such as Broadmoor (a secure hospital for the 'criminally insane').

HMP Parkhurst ('A' Cat.) in particular was awash with mentally ill men, and on visits, nurses were in evidence with small canvas bags over their shoulders, containing hypodermic needles and 'knockout' drugs in case one of these men should kick off and go dangerously haywire.

But until this sad case of little Madeleine is resolved (if ever) it's a bit premature to consider what to do with the perpetrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 08:46 AM

Can't disagree with that Baccie - my reservation would only be the woeful inadequacy of mental health treatment, or even taken seriously
The bumwipe press regards it as a let-out, and to a degree, takes the public with them, wealthy villains who can afford good legal assistance often use it to escape their crimes
As t stands at present, it's the best we can expect
Castration is not unlike capital punishment - too permanent to be feasible should it be found to have been applied to the innocent
Chemical castration was once the choice a homosexual was given as an alternative to prison - well within all out lifetimes - one of Briatin's great wartime saviours, Alan Turing's acceptance of this led eventually to his suicide

Capital Punishment was never anything more than institutionalised murder
My favourite quote on the barbaric practice, from 'The New Statesman', ends a brilliant little book on its history. 'The Fatal Gallows Tree' by Jonn Dean Potter, 1965   

Its description of how Britain's, 'great and good' gathered their forces to retain it has never been bettered

"From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten — the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution."
    It took nearly another 10 years to get the Bill passed. While the last Bill for abolition was placed before the House of Commons hanging was suspended—and never renewed.

This book should be compulsory school reading (still available with a little effort)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 06:43 AM

”Locking sick people up with hardened criminals should never have been an option“

Which is why I talk about ‘whole-life detention’, Jim. Brady was held in a psychiatric facility, not in a standard high-security prison, because he was judged to be ‘insane’ (whatever that may mean). Hindley, however, was not classed as ‘insane’, so went to a prison.

We can argue the toss about what kind of detention child-abductors/torturers/murderers should be subjected to, but what is an unarguable fact, AFAIC, is that the public have to be protected from these people, and long-term detention is a proven way of achieving that protection. Until anything more sophisticated or effective comes along...’we have what we have’.

Dick talks about ‘chemical castration’, and that’s been tried before, with varying levels of success. It depends on the co-operation of the offender, something that cannot be guaranteed, and I seem to recall instances of ‘chemically-castrated’ pædophile offenders going on to offend again.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:52 AM

"Well Jim, we have what we have."
Doesn't mean it can't be changed Baccie - I can remember the time of 'Lunatic asylums' and people were considered mentally ill for anything from getting pregnant to being gay or writing war poetry
If things need changing, they sould be changed
Locking sick people up with hardened criminals should never have been an option
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

castration might be a good idea.

That has the same problem as capital punishment - it can't be undone if the convicted person is later proved to be innocent.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 05:13 AM

castration might be a good idea. no offence to any of our members or guests who may be involved in folk music and who are lurking on this site, they have been here and in one case still are, but it is not for me to start a witch hunt and name them.
if there is a way of removing their sexual urges medically it might be a good idea for it to be done. however, it is debatable.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 04:29 AM

”No solution has ever been found to the problem of what to do with sick people who commit crimes“

Well Jim, we have what we have. Capital punishment is, AFAIC, out of the question - State-sanctioned murder is no better than any other murder - but people, especially children, need to be protected from those who would abuse them and take their lives.

Brady never harmed anyone after his conviction, he spent the rest of his life in what was effectively his prison. I’m not so sure that Hindley died in prison, she was very close to parole when she mysteriously and suddenly ‘died’, and I’ve always held a strong suspicion that, in order to avoid the public outrage that granting her parole would have caused, she was spirited away and given a new identity and a new life (but I have a suspicious nature anyway, so I could be well wide of the mark on that).

Whatever, whole-life detention for those who abduct and murder children seems a reasonable solution to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 03:55 AM

I agree Backwoodsman. Like you I don't support capital punishment, but life imprisonment is the only way to protect society from child abductors, paedophiles and child rapists/murderers.
Those folk who grant Parole for offenders such as these must have no common sense at all. How could they risk another atrocity by freeing such monsters?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:57 AM

"but whole life imprisonment - absolutely."
No solution has ever been found to the problem of what to do with sick people who commit crimes
Insanity is a mental illness in any medical dictionary - "criminal insanity" is a contradiction in terms, surely ?
Society's revenge against those who don't live up to our expectations seems nearer the mark
Society has yet to come to terms with the contradictions of how it treats sex, per se
A woman who brings a rape accusation is often judged on how she dresses when reaching a verdict, yet we live in a society that pressurises women to dress to please and titlate men
A wonan is condemned if she likes sex "too much" - sexual history is a major ploy in any defence arguments
A man is admired for his ability to "pull birds"
Pornography is a salable commodity - divided into "hard" and "soft" and the barrier between toe two is narrowing
Gibbon could have managed another six volumes with his hands in his pockets
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM

Obviously I don’t know if that’s the evidence the German police have, but it just struck me as very possible - after all, it was the photos they took of their victims’ burial sites that helped the police in Lancashire and eventually dammed Brady and Hindley.

Sen - my view is that anybody who sets out to kidnap, sexually abuse, and murder a child has a very serious, and almost certainly incurable and untreatable, mental illness, and should be incarcerated for the rest of their natural lives. I hold no truck with capital punishment, but whole life imprisonment - absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Jun 20 - 12:39 AM

You have a point, Backwoodsman, perhaps photographs.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:15 PM

That's true I suppose Backwoodsman, but isn't it appalling that anyone would commit such crimes? I wonder if paedophilia could be classed as a psychotic mental illness?
Apparently, the Portuguese Police and the German Police are at odds, and won't share evidence or information. The Portuguese found some saliva at the apartment to which they refuse to allow the Germans access to test for DNA. The Germans are demanding in a high-handed manner that they co-operate, which has alienated them.
The whole thing is a shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:05 PM

”Common sense says that the only real evidence that M is dead would be the discovery of her body“

Or photographs perhaps? It’s not unknown, I believe, for paedophiles to photograph their victims post-mortem?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 04:54 PM

Senoufou, I agree with you that something is wrong with this situation.   Common sense says that the only real evidence that M is dead would be the discovery of her body, and if that happened, there would be no reason to keep it secret.

Statements by felons and perverts are so likely to be half-baked or self-serving that they can hardly be called evidence. An exception would be when the informant knows some insider detail that shows he was on-scene. I think we can assume that hasn't happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 07:27 AM

"You should just be thankful that Israeli's have not been brought into it."
There really is no need for that on a thread like this Rag - please take your revenge somewhere else

Back to what matters
The suspect has now been linked to another murder and disappearance - possible murder with pedophilic overtones - a horde of stolen girls swimsuits were found in his caravan
The mother of the missing child has pleaded with the McCanns not to give up on their missing child
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 07:14 AM

We already have a thread in which memorials, etc, can be bantered about, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM

I'm the world's worst thread-drifter.

I see that the German Police have told the Press they have 'evidence' that the poor child is dead. However, they won't disclose the reason for this conclusion. And they say they've informed the McCanns, but the couple deny that they have received any such information.
This doesn't sound above board to me. It doesn't add up does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 05:58 AM

It's called thread drift Steve, I've been told not to worry about it.

In fact it is highly amusing that one of the worst culprits backs you up.

You should just be thankful that Israeli's have not been brought into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 20 - 02:29 AM

I agree with Steve - we should leave this one to the pigeons - that's what we pay them to do, after all
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 06:12 PM

This diversion could be in a different thread. Let's drop it in this one. We all have our own opinions, but opinions are all that they be...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:59 PM

So did the defendant, and he pissed on the wrong one...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:35 PM

After 16 pints I'd see two monuments...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jos
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 05:32 PM

After 16 pints I wouldn't be able to see a monument, never mind reading it.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 03:56 PM

I've had another look at a photograph of the incident.

The memorial to PC Palmer is sited in front of another piece of masonry which looks to be part of the fencing surrounding the land behind it.

The man is not urinating on the memorial but on the stone work to the side and behind it.

It people would care to look at the evidence available themselves instead of accepting what they are told by the media this man would have received a fine ……..no more.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 12:07 PM

Let's just ask what the level of outrage would have been
if a lefty demonstrator had pissed so close to that fallen cop's memorial...?????

I'd guess probably fewer mudcat apologists feeling sorry for the offender...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 11:57 AM

The name of the police officer was very clear on the memorial, as can be seen in that photo. It was right and proper that the magistrate took not just the context of the offence but also public outrage into account, as well as the man's remorse. I tend to think that justice was fairly well served on this occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 11:52 AM

Now I've only had a very quick glimpse at one photograph of the offence.

It was clear to me that he was standing to one side of the memorial. I doubt if there was any intention to actually pee on it.

I suspect that is media hype, the sort of hype that would get him a beating in some quarters.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 11:45 AM

His defense was lucky he was far too inebriated
to have accurately hit his 'alleged' memorial target in front of cameras...

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 11:35 AM

Context is everything. Whilst what he did was hardly a flogging offence, the picture of him urinating next to the memorial to a very brave man did cause massive outrage in the country. It was an aggravation to the part he played in a far-right, racist semi-riot.   My opinion is that his punishment, taking into account the remorse he showed which I took at face value, was proportionate. It wasn't so much the peeing as the outrage to public decency that he caused.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 07:21 AM

I think the "normal" sanction for peeing in the street is an £80 fine.

Make what you will of a fourteen day prison sentence and the accompanying criminal record.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 06:15 AM

Looks like France has been presumed guilty without evidence, despite having signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and having on statute, since 1789, that men are innocent "until evidence comes forward to prove otherwise". Don't know what it said about women, though (probably nothing).

Certainly, I have no problem with how I was treated when arrested by the French dibble, but then I'm a bloke.

There are anomalies, like everywhere. The prosecutors sit higher than the defending barristers due to a "carpenter's error", but in Britain in the eighteenth century "The hungry judges soon the sentence sign, and wretches hang that jurymen may dine".

Curiously enough, an article in an American academic law journal noted that the principle expressed in the French 1789 statute has still to be formally recognised in Anglo-American jurisprudence.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 04:12 AM

whoever is guilty of the abduction and murder[if she is dead], should not be named until there is enough evidence for the DPP to prosecute, that is the law, for people to have faith in the law, justice has to be administered correctly, whatever the crime.
whoever are the victims of any crime, the law has to be adminstered in accordance with justice.
in the uk the system is innocent until PROVED guilty. IN FRANCE AND SOME OTHER COUNTRIES ITIS GUILTY UNTIL THE DEFENDANT PROVES INNOCENCE. wHATEVER THE SYSTEM THE DPP HAS TO DECIDE IF THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE. in reality if someone is named beforehand the mud sticks regardless of proven innocence or guilt,

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 20 - 02:35 AM

"safely' behind German bars,"
Germany has had a mention as one of the countries where evidence has been lost from this ase in the past
You seem to be making this a witch-hunt against this poor suspect, ignoring that the victims so far have been the missing girl and and her parents
If there has been any sign of "a lynch mob", I'm buggered if I have seen it - has anybody else ?
All I've read so far is the uncovering of fresh evidence and the disclosure of one blunder after another - no screams for blood have made it over here
Am I wrong ?

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 10:27 AM

I wouldn't describe a big burly heavily intoxicated organised gang [football supporter] thug
riled up by far right propagandists,
to 'protest' in London during pandemic lockdown..

..as "that poor English guy"...

If he did do it deliberately, who knows what his distorted reasoning was...???

The facts are he got caught in the act, and would soon be identified
and vilified,
if he didn't hand himself in 'voluntarily' to face up to lesser trouble...

Who knows what else CCTV might have picked him up doing earlier...???


That mob of 'patriotic' statue protecting vigilantes he belonged to,
openly threatened and beat up news crews & photographers
who they identify as their enemy;
[trump scores that trans Atlantic victory]
and many of them also hate the police for various criminal and perverse ideological reasons...

The mainstream media does have some power for good,
but this power is too often abused for profit and sinister political motivation...

As I understand news reports, the new Maddy suspect is luckily 'safely' behind German bars,
where British paedo hunting vigilante mobs can't easily get to him...???

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 09:09 AM

He turned himself in after pressure from his own family. He got fourteen days, of which he will serve seven. He has been remorseful and apologetic, admitting ignorance of the significance of his action. I can't see much wrong with his fate myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 07:47 AM

The profit motive has become far too important in newspapers. Look at that poor English guy who decided to have a quiet pee at the side of the street, and unfortunately chose a monument to a brave man to pee beside. Apparently he's been jailed.
Now, I have no objection to jailing men for pissing on the street - YES! - but this man was virtually jailed at the request of screaming tabloids, from what I can understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 20 - 04:06 AM

Incidentally Dick, your quote refers to the Press interfering with justice, not the people, per se
People rely on the press for their information on these things - that is their only source
It is the press who decides whether the accused is guilty and it is they who create "beasts" and "monsters" long before any verdict is reached - the public knows nothing until they are given what the press chooses them to know
There are exceptions of course - long term prejudices can come into play (the execution of a Traveller by a farmer who was later found "blameless" is one of the best examples I can think of

I was against the filming of trials at one time - now I am not too sure
The O J Simpson entertainment circus sickened me, but maybe it doesn't have to be like that
The plaintiff is as entitled as the accused and the public must be allowed to reach their own conclusion based on all the information
Many rape victims are now choosing to waive their anonymity on behalf of their fellow victims
The only ones who would benefit from the anonymity of the accused in cases like this would be the guilty - open trials might be a way of letting a public who was interested enough to decide for itself
There's a big Augian Stable desperatwly in need of a thorough scrub-down here
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Madeleine McCann - Possible Suspect
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 20 - 05:12 PM

Dick
As you can see from the way rape is treated with only a miniscule number of cases being ever reported - the system is broken - if it was even working
Unless it is fixed you might as well wife it off the books as a report -worthy crime
This is not "my ppr misjudged mate, the victim" - it's and entire gender
Please address that one
Jim