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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Doug Chadwick Date: 06 Jul 20 - 03:19 PM You were saying? I presume there is more to come. DC |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Noreen Date: 06 Jul 20 - 08:34 PM "The local population must have been easily confused. As disguise, it's right up there with Clark Kent's glasses" You might be surprised, Doug. When I greet people I know at festivals with my face painted in black and silver, I find it remarkable the number of people who don't know it's me- even people who know me well, and even when they hear my voice. Even when new dancers in our side appear in facepaint for the first time, it can take us a while to recognise them. Our side decided a while ago to use a mixture of black and silver facepaint (our side's colours) to avoid this problem. While I HATE the fact that those who use full-face black makeup feel they have to change (as it seems an admission that there was somethinhg wrong with it- when there has never been any racist intent), I agree with what Brian Peters said above: Who would choose to die in a ditch for blackface? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Jos Date: 07 Jul 20 - 01:37 AM The choice should NOT be between black face paint and dying in a ditch. The face paint itself isn't going to cause the wearers to die, so the suggestion is that the objectors would feel justified in killing them. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 07 Jul 20 - 11:00 AM There is too much willful naivety, stubborn stupidity, or blatant provocative nationalism on display in this thread; from those disgruntled at any compromise over blackface... Whichever of those 3 best describes you, the 21st Century don't care, and is moving forward leaving you behind... If you are not an extremist nationalist, all you are doing is acting as useful idiots for those in the far right who are latching onto British Folk traditions as propaganda symbols they can rally round for their divisive cause... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Jul 20 - 11:12 AM ....once again. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Jul 20 - 11:25 AM You nailed it, PFR. Don't be a tool. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe G Date: 07 Jul 20 - 12:42 PM Yep spot on pfr |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST Date: 07 Jul 20 - 06:06 PM You were saying? I presume there is more to come. DC No more to come, I was just pointing out that your statement was inaccurate. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Mr Red Date: 08 Jul 20 - 05:24 AM The pendulum swings, and it has momentum. And it doesn't stop at any notional bottom. We have to bow to the inevitable, just so the pendulum doesn't smack us in the head. But: 1) It is easier to take offence than give it. 2) ascribing your own notions on the meanings of anothers' culture is cultural appropriation. Own that concept before you say "Yes but......." & FWIW didn't the indigenous Brits first "black up" to imitate the acrobatic (Asian) tumblers that were called Morresque. Is flattery so offensive? Yea, Yea - by Victorian times it was to disguise identity. That's the Folk Process. So it the fashion (aka response) for Blue-Faced Morris. And are we going to ban black face masks? In a time of COVID? I have seen them on one side for years. I have seen reports on aggresive BLM comments that statues of Jesus are offensive. Because the white marble (??) depicts a white face. If true that it represents a pendulum swinging way too much. IMNSH (atheist) O. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: r.padgett Date: 08 Jul 20 - 06:24 AM "The costumes worn by Molly dancers are very individualistic, but largely based upon working outdoor clothes and hobnailed boots. Dancers may have their faces blackened or otherwise disguised as in the photograph below. Disguising the face in this way is well-known in English social history: men wishing to pursue proscribed activities would black their faces to avoid recognition: such activities could include both smuggling and morris dancing!" Ray Blacking up has clearly a completely different historical origin to that of the Black and White Minstrels history which denigrates black people ~ I said somewhere why not use different colours and patterns ~ I see no problems with this approach |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 08 Jul 20 - 06:41 AM Marxist-Afro-American centrist/chauvinist approved history & fun. Oh boy! “Dying in a ditch...” &c.… Handcuffed, garrotted, stabbed & shot in the back twice, with a single shot .22LR so… suicide? Purely rhetorical question apropos absolutely nothing at all: Do the rules specifically ban Afro merkins? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 Jul 20 - 10:35 AM Has anyone dared mention that much of this British trad dance being so chauvinistically defended on principle, is probably shite entertainment and art... Which most normal sensible folks don't care exists.. Even many of the far right who have newly rallied to the cause of protecting blackface morris, might have to admit it was crap if they were forced to watch it sober... Get real, you few cranky agitators for blacking up...!!! The best morris sides, which elevate our trad dance to an artform, do not need to depend on the dubious politics of blackface... ..and even then British folk dance is quite dull compared to the best from other Nations and Races... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 08 Jul 20 - 10:58 AM PFR, you certainly don't help your statement by being so negative and aggressive! Whatever the merits/demerits of Morris are is irrelevant to blacking up. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Mo the caller Date: 08 Jul 20 - 11:15 AM British folk dance dull?????? Well it is rarely state-subsidised and highly choreographed. It is all sorts of things. 80 year olds in a school hall adapting the moves that make them dizzy.Enjoying the company and the music while keeping aa active as possible. Display teams that won't let you dance out until you reach a high standard. Vilage halls full of all ages charging about wildly to lively music. Display teams who accept anyone who will have a go. Wedding guests who've never done this before. Solo step dancers. British folk dance is participation. And Joy. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 Jul 20 - 11:16 AM "GGGRRRRRR...!!!" that's me being aggressive... "..oh nooo.. what's the point.. we're all going to die alone in misery.." that's me being negative... Steve - I like Morris, our local side put on a great show, for both the initiated enthusiasts and uninitiated casual onlookers... That's the well deployed power of simple sticks 'n' hankies But if given a choice between them and a Cossack dance..... My actual argument is that British Nationalists need to spend more time on the internet learning to appreciate and enjoy international folk cultures, rather than watching the latest daily video blogs from USA and other foreign hate propagandists... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 Jul 20 - 01:07 PM I'm an aging bloke who grew up in the 1960s, when some attitudes were unquestioned as the socially acceptable norm.. Compromise and change, can be unwanted and uncomfortable.. But sometimes painfully unavoidable... There are some things I'd like to still do and say, but can't anymore, out of consideration and respect for other folks who now see the world differently than I used to.. If it wasn't for far right British Nationalists cynically latching onto and exploiting 'Blackface morris' as a convenient vehicle for their insidious propaganda and recruitment; it might not have become such a red hot issue, as it is right now... Blackface has been on precarious ground for years, increasingly difficult to defend why it should continue. Any reasonable old arguments in favour, are not so sufficient anymore But the final nail in it's coffin, is the far right adopting 'British Blackface Tradition' as a symbol to rally around in provocative defiance of BLM progress... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 08 Jul 20 - 01:31 PM .. like the female far right youtuber who always sat with a gollywog prominently displayed beside her... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Date: 08 Jul 20 - 01:39 PM I've never seen a Morris dancer in Black and White minstrel's make up or costume. I do not see any similarity (the Black and White mistrels was one of the first programs to be broadcast in colour in the UK, by the way). Though I do remember Seven Champions in lycra bodysuits. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 08 Jul 20 - 05:48 PM Bacup comes pretty close and the East Riding ploughboys actually sang minstrel songs. Flamborough Sword Dance uses two minstrel song tunes but they don't black up and I don't remember seeing older pictures of them blacking up even when they wore military costume as opposed to the fisherman's outfit they used all last century. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: r.padgett Date: 09 Jul 20 - 03:23 AM Bacup Coconutters are unbelievable ~ totally unique it terms of Morris dancing even ~long may they continue, and entertaining Ray |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jul 20 - 03:27 AM I love British Morris dancing. I also like to see women dancing Morris. I find it exciting. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Long Firm Freddie Date: 09 Jul 20 - 04:36 AM A thesis entitled ‘Blacking Up’: English Folk Traditions and Changing Perceptions about Black People in England submitted in 2013 by Trish Bater makes interesting reading. The link goes direct to a pdf download: Thesis LFF |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 Jul 20 - 06:02 AM I'll guess the conclusion of this thesis, is that this is a far too complex problem, that some highly vociferous disgruntled folkies can only reduce to seeing in simplistic black and white... [.. groan as much as you like.. my spirit animal may be Basil Brush...] |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 Jul 20 - 06:14 AM A slight, but possibly related, thread drift.. Last night we watched an episode of RICKY & RALF'S VERY NORTHERN ROAD TRIP on UK Gold catch up.. [The Cumbria and Lake district episode] The segment exploring the Pencil Museum, explained the origins of the term "Black Market", in relation to the discovery and exploitation of the local raw resource Graphite; and it's properties as a darkening colourant for white skin... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Jul 20 - 06:39 AM PFR - Being of British and Cossack extraction I can assure you that there are good and bad Morris and Cossack dance sides. There are good and bad dancers and dances from all over the world. The reason you may prefer those of other cultures is that you only see the best of those in this country whereas you see the good and bad of our own. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Mo the caller Date: 09 Jul 20 - 08:29 AM Yes Dave, I agree. British folk is all sorts of things and the beauty is that includes everyone. Some of the foreign teams we are state subsidised, choregraphed propaganda. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 Jul 20 - 09:27 AM Before any more knickers get over twisted.. I repeat - I personally like morris.. ..and a variety of just as good, if not better, foreign folk culture.. My post [Date: 08 Jul 20 - 10:35 AM] was a tongue in cheek jibe, a wind-up response to dodgy nationalist rhetoric posts which have since been deleted... But I'll still argue that a lot of the right wing protesters now flocking to defend Blackface Morris on Nationalist principle, would only pretend to be enjoying it for their own divisive ideological reasons... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 09 Jul 20 - 10:42 AM To be honest, it never occurred to me before this current purge that there could be a problem with blackface morris. I enjoy the stamping, yelling and mystery of the black faces, wondering who the hell they are. I saw a blackface side once in the 1980s dancing to Shadows records, can't remember who they were though. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 20 - 10:42 AM I'd argue a lot of lefties just like virtue signalling. They must lead sad lives looking for every opportunity to be offended. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe G Date: 09 Jul 20 - 10:55 AM No Guest - we're just considerate about how other people may feel and do not condone anything that could be interpreted as racist. Nothing sad about that - just decent Bonzo - you'd get the same effect if people used blue or green face so what's the problem |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 Jul 20 - 11:07 AM Just a reminder.. for any Guests and mudcat members still moaning about 'PC gone mad' and 'virtue signalling', etc.. Who exactly is it banning Blackface Morris...??? Who here in this thread, is even calling for it to be banned...????? It's up to the Blackface sides to listen and engage in current debate, then take responsibility making their own decision if they should continue blacking up in public, or not... It don't bother me one way or another.. I'm down in the west country where we're happy enough with sticks and hankies.. My agenda ain't against the regional peculiarities of morris traditions, good luck to 'em if they can find reasonable intelligent ways to be preserved.. No, my issue is with the right wing ideologues appropriating our traditional British folk culture, for their own pernicious divisive Nationalist propaganda purposes... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 09 Jul 20 - 01:43 PM Joe G - what is your problem with black????? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 09 Jul 20 - 02:02 PM Bonz - why don't you conduct some research.. Take a laptop full of videos and images of Blackface Morris to a street corner on one of the estates in Croydon, and invite random BAME passers by to view them... While you give them a jolly spiel on why they would be so over sensitive if they took offence... .. just an idea... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe G Date: 09 Jul 20 - 02:51 PM Can I look on from a safe distance? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 09 Jul 20 - 03:41 PM 'what is your problem with black?????' Not Joe's problem and the answer has been spelled out in great detail here. Go read the OP, Bonz, and then take up your gripe with the 3 Morris organisations. I think the subject is just about exhausted. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Bonzo3legs Date: 09 Jul 20 - 03:43 PM Agreed...……………….next? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 09 Jul 20 - 04:03 PM I'll shake on that, Bonz. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Mr Red Date: 10 Jul 20 - 02:13 AM I once had this conversation with a person of colour who told me that a gollywog was offensive. I pointed out that I had one as a child and it was my comfort blanket. He didn't see the irony. Taking offense that is not given? AND how many of the older of this parish remember cast iron savings banks that had a hinged arm that delivered the coins into the mouth. In the shape of a golly? Teaching children, is that offensive? Life ain't binary. But at the end of the day I would rather not upset a friend than give any credence to supporters of the Farrage Balloon. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Jos Date: 10 Jul 20 - 02:46 AM When I was a small, amongst the dolls in the toy cupboard (one black, some pink) we also had a golliwog. It never occurred to me that the golliwog was supposed to represent a real person, any more than the flowerpot men were supposed to be real people, or Noddy and Big Ears. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jul 20 - 03:13 AM Many Americans won't know what a Golliwog is - but once they see one, they'll consider it offensive. Golliwogs are cute and cuddly and lovable - and for good reason, many people consider them racist. White people think of all sorts of racist icons and songs and practices as "cute," and many of them really are cute - but on the other hand, they present a diminutive image of People of Color that, while cute and well-intentioned, is also demeaning. We have a number of Chinaman threads here at Mudcat. Guests come here to Mudcat regularly after Googling these "Chinaman" songs that they grew up with, and then they post the version of the song that they knew as a child, and they get all nostalgic for these cute songs - and cute they are, and demeaning. I read a couple of verses from one of those "Chinaman" songs to a group from church, and one white person was offended that I would even read those racist lyrics to friends to demonstrate the racism against Chinese in America. I think he was wrong to condemn me, but I'm not sure he's ever going to speak to me again. And the Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben and the Black man on the Cream of Wheat box are all icons that we view with love and nostalgia, because they remind us of the Black men and women who served us white people when we were children. And yes, many of them loved us and we loved them, but still we were in a master-servant relationship with them. Now, we're in a long-awaited period of cleansing, and many parts of our culture and language that might be considered racist, are being destroyed or removed. Many things that are being erased fropm our culture, are thing that we loved and that we consider completely benign. As for blackface Morris, it's clear that many good people consider it to be racist, while other good people don't. It does seem to be likely to be viewed as demeaning to Black people, even though that may not be its intent. It's going to be a difficult adjustment. -Joe- P.S. Will Kipling survive? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Snuffy Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:22 AM "P.S. Will Kipling survive?" I think he probably deserves to, Joe, if only for this: Though I’ve belted you and flayed you, By the livin’ Gawd that made you, You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din! |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Howard Jones Date: 10 Jul 20 - 08:33 AM A golliwog is clearly racist, certainly to adult eyes. Not obviously so to a child's eyes, especially in England at a time when black people were still a rarity. Like Mr Red, I didn't even think of golliwogs as representing people, let alone black people - they were toys or characters in books, no more real than the gnomes and fairies also in the books. Even when I first saw a black person, aged about 4, I didn't make the connection. I can picture him now, a dignified gentleman in a homburg hat and overcoat, who maintained his dignity even while I pointed and yelled at my mortified mother to look. He looked nothing like a golliwog. However they are now rightly seen as racist and unacceptable. For that matter, blacked-up morris dancers don't look like black people either, neither do they look like minstrels or caricatures of black people. They look like morris dancers. Blacked-up morris (I won't call it "blackface" since that is a loaded term) is not racist. It's problem is that it has the appearance of being racist, and can be misinterpreted as such. We live in a time when offence is too easily taken, when people believe they are entitled to their opinions and shouldn't have to alter them even where they are mistaken, and where giving offence is apparently the greatest sin. In such an environment too many people are deaf to explanations and it is probably pointless to try to persuade them. Morris probably now has to bow to the inevitable and change with the times. However I regret that it has become necessary since I don't believe we have anything to be ashamed of, and I particularly regret that the decision appears to have been driven by a reaction to a few extremists with no true interest in our traditions. Nevertheless I think the draft proposal gives rise to a lot of questions and scope for disagreement. If any hint of black is to be banned then that would penalise a lot of sides who have already modified their face paint so it no longer resembles blackface but retains some black elements. The "other skin tones" is incredibly vague and includes ordinary cosmetics. Changing any colours may need changes to other elements of the kit, to remain consistent. Apart from those sides (if there are any) who may still choose to black up, I suspect there may be a number of sides who agree with the principle but won't be happy with the details. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:04 AM 2 sensible and measured responses from Joe and Howard. Any portrayal of a golly is offensive. It is a copy of one of the uniforms of a Minstrel performer, a caricature of a caricature if you like. Also in Enid Blyton's children's books gollies were portrayed as the villains. They are still on sale in toy shops in England for any racists to purchase. However, it is important that the historic significance of racist examples are kept in the public eye, lest we forget! It is also important that we acknowledge that our forbears were wrong, and don't make excuses for them. |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Jul 20 - 11:34 AM Gollis were once upon a time childhood toys.. Racists now buy and display them as symbols of infantile defiance... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Jul 20 - 12:15 PM Actually.. soft cuddly racist dolls might be an enterprising idea...??? Pull a string in their back to make them talk.. They'll say the most amusing random racist cliches.. Ha.. ha.. funny old racist doll.. now back in your toybox with golli, you naughty cheeky cuddly old thug... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Jul 20 - 12:36 PM Sorry for the hijack but I know PFR is active on here but does not read PMs. PFR - if you haven't done already, look at Plex online media. Free and full of old films. Including westerns, which I know you enjoy. Now, back to racism. Talking of westerns, any red skin Morris? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST Date: 10 Jul 20 - 12:44 PM An interesting mention of redskins. The Native Americans were robbed wholesale by illegal settlers who betrayed every single treaty signed. What recompense will be offered to them I wonder? |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Jul 20 - 12:49 PM I bought plex app for my android tablet a few years ago, but it looked like too much faffin about.. They still send me emails trying to sell me updated services.. [which I don't bother reading...] So.. I'm a lefty who still enjoys old cowboy movies full of stock racial stereotype characters.. Who wants to make something of it then... I gave up trying to encourage folks not to PM me, about 35 messages ago.. I do reluctantly check now at least once a week... Btw.. the 1980s socialist skinhead band, "The Redskins" might now have a bit of a PR problem... END OF THREAD HIJACK... |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Jul 20 - 02:33 PM Actually one more, if you don't mind: Though the Trump antics are what drew the most attention to yesterday's Supreme Court decisions, this one in the long run is far more substantial: Supreme Court says much of eastern Oklahoma remains Indian land The Supreme Court said Thursday that a large swath of eastern Oklahoma remains an American Indian reservation, a decision with potential implications for nearly 2?million residents and one of the most significant victories for tribal rights in years. Now back to Morris. Red face or black face would be fraught here in the US. Blue face seems most appropriate in the UK, but I imagine not everyone is in love with woad. Is it a throwback to the Picts? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Calling time on Blackface Morris From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe Date: 11 Jul 20 - 04:30 PM May I say I'm offended at the suggestion that Morris Dancers green-up instead of black-up. This is grossly insensitive to us True Gaels and our national vegetable of cabbage, our official uniform of Leprechaun suits and our ancient custom of wetting the shamrock in green beer on our national saint's day. St. Patrick himself was of course traditionally represented in green. :) Seriously though, Morris dancing will continue as entertaining as ever whatever the facial make-up. Keep the show going. |
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