BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!

Subject: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 04:38 PM

During the invasion of South Georgia by Argentina, 22 Royal Marines took on an Argentine warship and put it out of action. That required balls, guts and tip top training - none of your so called "woke" Nancy boys there - a biffing was required and a biffing was done !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 05:11 PM

Look at a map and then tell me where the Falklands truly belong.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 05:21 PM

Oh, Steve. The people who live on the Falkland Islands don't care where the continental shelf is; they speak English (of a sort) and don't want to belong to Argentina.

Poor old Britain, still dealing with the aftermath of Imperial strategies long overcome by time and events, will probably decide some day soon that the Falklanders should start boning up on their conversational Spanish.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 05:39 PM

Or we could call them Malvinas. I hated the Argentina regime of the time and I hated the Thatcher regime just as much. So look at a map and tell me what your instincts tell you about who the Malvinas should belong to.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 06:13 PM

I think you missed the point!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 06:35 PM

Bonzo, you want to talk about brave Marines. Okay, the Marines were then and still are brave. Point taken.

But I'm afraid many people focus more on the Why than the Who when the Falklands war comes up in conversation. Steve and I both seem to be among those people.

Incidentally, a person can be a brave and effective soldier, Marine or whatever you please without actually possessing testicles. Tip-top training, yes. Intestinal fortitude, also yes. But not balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 06:55 PM

I'm no pacifist and am a massive supporter of our armed forces. You can be very brave but still be on the wrong side. That would never be your fault. I always think about the magnificent Bert Trautmann in these conversations...

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 09:27 PM

We can presume bonz has never been in the military under fire in a war zone.

My old mate who was sent to the Falklands,
would more likely want to kick old tory armchair warriors in the balls,
than listen to them spouting jingoistic bollocks glorifying his terrifying ordeal...

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 01:58 AM

So what you are saying is that the military junta pigs in Argentina, who murdered thousands were right to invade British territory????

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 03:02 AM

An Edinburgh folkie I knew had been in the SBS in the Falklands. Was very badly wounded in a failed attempt at a landing and never recovered physically or mentally enough to work at a real job again or have any lasting relationships. When the 25th anniversary came round, the patriotic hype got him so upset he committed suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 03:16 AM

BTW the only civilian casualties in the war were two women whose house was shelled by the Royal Navy.

The entire Falklands economy is based on export of sheepmeat to the EU, Spain in particular. Which will be impossible after Brexit. They are facing destitution and the British fascist regime has not suggested anything to help them.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: BobL
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 03:18 AM

I think the question boils down to: should the islands have been British territory? Long & complex history behind that.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 04:21 AM

BTW the only civilian casualties in the war were two women whose house was shelled by the Royal Navy
A quick search suggests three civilian deaths from that shelling. And let's call deaths by that name. In common English usage casualties go to A&E, deaths go to the morgue.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Mo the caller
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 04:31 AM

Was the warship mentioned above the one that was outside the exclusion zone? The sailors whose killing we were told to rejoice about?

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 05:04 AM

It doesn’t quite work that way. The Belgrano was sunk outside the 200-nautical-mile total exclusion zone around the Falklands.

Exclusion zones are historically declared for the benefit of neutral vessels; during war, under international law, the heading and location of a belligerent naval vessel has no bearing on its status.

In addition, the captain of the Belgrano, Héctor Bonzo, has testified that the attack was legitimate (as did the Argentine government in 1994).

Though the ship was outside the 200-mile exclusion zone, both sides understood that this was no longer the limit of British action — on 23 April a message was passed via the Swiss Embassy in Buenos Aires to the Argentine government, it read:

“In announcing the establishment of a Maritime Exclusion Zone around the Falkland Islands, Her Majesty’s Government made it clear that this measure was without prejudice to the right of the United Kingdom to take whatever additional measures may be needed in the exercise of its right of self-defence under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter.

From Here

I've also tried to find confirmation that Thatcher said to "Rejoice" about the sinking. I can't find it.
The only references to "Rejoice" was for the re-taking of South Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 07:22 AM

Some anniversary they're having. Argentina would have given them far better prospects for democracy and economic progress today than being the colonial ghetto of a banana republic.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 10:24 AM

Apart from that, all ofthe Argentines I met during my 7 visits werelovely people.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 10:26 AM

But Britain can't even produce bananas, Jack! That said, your point is well taken.

A casual scan of Wikipedia articles on the Falkland Islands -- this one, on the sovereignty dispute, and related pages linked to it -- shows that whatever benefit Britain ever gained from claiming the Falklands is quickly receding in the rear-view mirror, leaving only the responsibility of honouring the citizenship bestowed on the island group's people in 1983.

Post-Brexit Britain faces many unpleasant options, and dumping the Falklanders might well turn out to be easy in comparison with, for example, letting go of Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 02:18 PM

A casual scan of Wikipedia articles on the Falkland Islands -- this one Which one? Care to give a link?, on the sovereignty dispute, and related pages linked to it -- shows that whatever benefit Britain ever gained from claiming the Falklands is quickly receding in the rear-view mirror, leaving only the responsibility of honouring the citizenship bestowed on the island group's people in 1983.

A benefit to the UK would be a possible reason for keeping the islands British.
But there is no need to find a benefit to the UK. If the islands wish to remain British then that is sufficient. With no necessary benefit to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 03:06 PM

The islands couldn't give a monkeys what nationality they are..

It's the islanders who stubbornly cling to some kind of abstract British identity...

.. or so we are told...???

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 03:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 03:06 PM

The islands couldn't give a monkeys what nationality they are..

It's the islanders who stubbornly cling to some kind of abstract British identity.
Quite true.
If the islanders (or a majority of them) ever decide that they wish to be Argentinian then I'm (fairly) sure that the UK would raise no objections.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: meself
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 03:50 PM

Just wondering: what would be the difference between an 'abstract' and a concrete British identity?

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 03:56 PM

Honouring British citizenship costs the Brexit regime nothing. The islanders have no right to move off the islands and if Cummings wants them all to starve there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 04:29 PM

"concrete British identity" = when an extreme Brit nationalist's sense of British identity
is set ossified too extremely thick and hardened in the cavity between the ears...???

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 05:28 PM

That’s what 32 weeks of the hardest training of its kind in the world will do. Forge soldiers who will choose to face impossible odds and give the enemy a hiding. So thankful the Royal Marines Are British. A credit to our nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Sep 20 - 05:30 PM

Royal Marines: I say - are you people Argentine scrap metal dealers?
Argentine soldiers: No! We are invaders!
Royal Marines: Very well, you may stay. But tell us if you happen to see any Argentine scrap metal dealers, would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Sep 20 - 10:01 AM

Nigel Parsons, I did provide a link to the article I referred to, and it works fine for me.

And Britain really can’t afford to grant expensive territorial wishes any more. Those days are done.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Sep 20 - 11:31 AM

Bonz - No disagreement about our military personnel being amongst the very best in the world.

What is fair for question though, is the 'need' for keeping the Falklands British...???

.. and for how much longer...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Sep 20 - 12:22 PM

The Falklanders need Britain way more than Britain needs the Falkland Islands. But in the aftermath of Brexit, Britain may not be able to provide the guaranteed markets the Falklanders enjoyed through Britain's membership in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Sep 20 - 01:26 PM

pfr - I don't know the answer to why the Falklands are still needed, potential oil perhaps!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Sep 20 - 02:44 PM

If there’s any oil out there, Bonzo, it will be cripplingly expensive to exploit, and the Argentines will fight for it with everything they’ve got. At present, I think they are better prepared for a fight than Britain is.

Back in the day, the Falkland Islands provided coaling and victualling facilities for passing naval and merchant vessels, and a respite base for whalers and fishermen working the Antarctic waters. They also supported a signals repeater. With the sheep, that was about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Sep 20 - 04:40 PM

"Was the warship mentioned above the one that was outside the exclusion zone? The sailors whose killing we were told to rejoice about?"

During war, under international law, the heading and location of a belligerent naval vessel has no bearing on its status. In addition, the captain of the Belgrano, Hector Bonzo (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), has testified that the attack was legitimate, as did the Argentine government in 1994.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 20 - 07:43 PM

The vessel wasn't being belligerent when it was sunk. And 323 Argies, largely young men who probably had no choice other than to be on that ship, and who certainly had little or no interest in politics, were slaughtered on the order of Margaret Thatcher. Comment is free but facts are sacred.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 05:15 AM

Had the Belgrano not been sunk, the almost inevitable naval battle would have resulted in many 1000s of lives lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 05:39 AM

Admiral Enrique Molina Pico, head of the Argentine Navy in the 1990s, wrote in a letter to La Nación, published in the 2 May 2005 edition, that the Belgrano was part of an operation that posed a real threat to the British task force, that it was holding off for tactical reasons, and that being outside of the exclusion zone was unimportant as it was a warship on tactical mission. This is the official position of the Argentine Navy.

It's very interesting that no NATO country offered help in this conflict, no EU country offered help and likewise no Commonwealth country!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 06:10 AM

This thread is nothing more than jingoistic trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 06:31 AM

During the invasion of South Georgia by Argentina, 22 Royal Marines took on an Argentine warship and put it out of action. That required balls, guts and tip top training - none of your so called "woke" Nancy boys there - a biffing was required and a biffing was done !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 08:01 AM

The Canadian government of the day had nothing handy to offer, and no time to add water to what little the Canadian Forces might have managed to stir up, even if Britain had asked for help. Back then, everything we had was pointed at the Soviet Union.

And Britain did not ask for help. Pointedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 08:15 AM

How do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 08:22 AM

I always believe it’s very important not to let Union-Jack-Underpants Flag-Wavers’ jingoism get in the way of facts in serious matters such as the Falklands War...

Who did the European Community support during the war?

Did the US support the UK during the War

Plenty of answers here...

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 09:32 AM

However you look at the Falklands War, 1,000+ deaths, hundreds more wounded and injured, many more suffering life-damaging PTSD, and the loss of millions of pounds-worth of military and civil assets, was a very expensive price to pay for ~1,000 people, who love the U.K. so much they live pretty much as far away as it’s possible to get, to be able to continue to wave their British passports to piss the Argentines off, and to save the political arse of the worst U.K. Prime Minister of the 20th Century.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 10:07 AM

I think it was a conflict rather than a war.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 10:32 AM

However you look at the Falklands War, 1,000+ deaths, hundreds more wounded and injured, many more suffering life-damaging PTSD, and the loss of millions of pounds-worth of military and civil assets, was a very expensive price to pay for ~1,000 people, who love the U.K. so much they live pretty much as far away as it’s possible to get, to be able to continue to wave their British passports to piss the Argentines off, and to save the political arse of the worst U.K. Prime Minister of the 20th Century.

That is one view.
Once the islands had been invaded by Argentina should the UK just have accepted that and allow a change of 'ownership' of the islands?
What international precedents would have been set?
What reason would there be for the Spanish not to attempt annexation of Gibraltar, or the French of the Channel Islands? They would know that the UK would happily stand back and do sod all.
No country would be in any position to oppose large countries taking control of nearby smaller countries, by force.
If we were right to oppose Nazi Germany's forcible expansion in the first half of the century, then we were right to protect the Falklands in the 1980s.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 12:46 PM

You may debate the politics and legalities of it all day.. but for those who were there, concerns were different...

This was written by someone who WAS there. He sang it in a pub in England, and this group heard it and asked to record it.

Survivor Leave

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 05:33 PM

It would also be right to protect them from Fascist Britain now.

I just had a look at the Falklands Islands Government web resources. What you do not see there:

- any sign of democracy; self-determination for the islanders is not remotely on the agenda.

- any sign of meaningful economic benefit from the link to Britain.

- any initiative to maintain economic links with the EU, which has been the mainstay of the islands' economy for a generation.

- any attempt to develop links with Argentina.

The islands are being managed in a Brexiteer style of arrogance and incompetence.

They ARE trying to develop tokenistic links with Chile and Uruguay. Which are so far away with such poor transport links and such poor complementarity of production they will have the same effect as Britain getting its substandard trade deal with New Zealand.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 05:48 PM

Had a very nice day in Uruguay, superb lunch and lovely people!

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 06:48 PM

Jack Campin'"
It would also be right to protect them from Fascist Britain now.

I just had a look at the Falklands Islands Government web resources. What you do not see there:
- any sign of democracy; self-determination for the islanders is not remotely on the agenda.
- any sign of meaningful economic benefit from the link to Britain.
- any initiative to maintain economic links with the EU, which has been the mainstay of the islands' economy for a generation.
- any attempt to develop links with Argentina.
The islands are being managed in a Brexiteer style of arrogance and incompetence.

What you "do not see" is no evidence of the presence of the opposite of what you "do not see".

Any argument you are trying to make is without any definite basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 08:41 PM

The usual question...

Who profited/profiteered most from the Falklands war...?????

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 20 - 09:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 17 Sep 20 - 06:13 PM

I think you missed the point!!! quote bonzo

No no, I understood your point clearly, it was the point of view, of right wing imperiaistic ideology trolling and a bit of political provocation.

Subject: RE: BS: Almost 40 years since Falklands War!
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Sep 20 - 04:44 AM