BS: education and propaganda

Subject: BS: education and propoganda
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 03:23 AM

is there any difference?
please note this is a question

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:25 AM

I've been a schoolteacher all my working life, plus (obviously) a pupil myself and a university student, so have experienced both sides of 'education', and I see what you're thinking.
Much of what I was taught as a child (in the early fifties) could be labelled 'propaganda'. For example, the vastly superior British Empire, women's 'place' (domestic and cookery lessons, typing lessons only for girls etc), the glories of War.
Nowadays there are many 'woke'-type lessons being delivered to children at school. And religious tenets in various faith schools.
I think the only way to judge the curriculum is by applying the test: "Is this actually The Truth?" In other words, can a standpoint be justified as true, provable and backed-up by research, science and unbiased conclusions.
This is a tall order. Throughout life, not just in education, opinions expressed in the media and even on News programmes are often obviously biased. I cling to those two words: The Truth.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 05:58 AM

Education allows you to spell Propaganda correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 07:52 AM

LOL
not necessarily in my case. I use the English (English)** - Firefox lexicon but it seems to revert every time I update, and even at other times I can't decipher.

FWIW - as I understand it, the concept of education and propaganda in the Russian language/culture are pretty much in the same ballpark. Tells you something about interference in other countries' politics, dunnit?

When I were an apprentice, I couldn't even spell Engineer. Now I are one.

**Queen's English

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Jos
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 08:02 AM

Perhaps propaganda would be described by its proponents as 're-education'.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 08:08 AM

We sort of know (when our guard is up) when educative news is off kilter, and we understand pictures never told the whole story, and now might be faked. And lip syncing on video is becoming known to intelligent people. BUT I have had respected people tell me they remember what was said in a video, from long since. Even though the circumstances are politically charged and the video clearly could have been carefully chosen & lip-synced.

But recent a New Scientist article is reporting how videos can be processed to change peoples' movements in a scene of objects (that don't move unless attached to the peeps). Slow and expensive maybe, now! ---- But to a foreign government or a political party - chicken feed.

Basically we should Fact Check - but who does? Especially when (eg) FactCheckUK is an arm of the Tory party.

There & I didn't use the Trump word. Oh, failed again.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 10:58 AM

Education: facts are facts are facts.
Propaganda: how to interpret the facts.
Conspiracy theory: the facts are not the facts

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 10:59 AM

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 05:58 AM

Education allows you to spell Propaganda correctly.
well it was a typo, i always got ten out of ten for spelling
however your facetious comment is a pathetic misunderstanding of education, education should be about solving problems, thinking ahead, not learning by rote, or swallowing establishment versions of history.       .    one fault of 1950s education was the lack of teaching a second language until we were 11, the lack of foresight of how necessary typing would be with the importance of computers.
    Raggytash and his facetious comment, is just the sort of right wing understanding of education that is reminiscent of Gradgrind in Dickens book, Hard Times, the idiot that thought the only important thing about education was facts, Have you ever read that book,Raggy? another book you should read is The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists
. when my nephew moved to France he told me the interesting thing was history, in England he learned the English won certain battles when he went to France, lo and behold the french had won those battles. a classic example of history being establishment PROPAGANDA.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 11:03 AM

Jeri. you too sound like Gradgrind in Dickens Hard Times
Thomas Gradgrind is the first character we meet in Hard Times, and one of the central figures through whom Dickens weaves a web of intricately connected plotlines and characters. Dickens introduces us to this character with a description of his most central feature: his mechanized, monotone attitude and appearance. The opening scene in the novel describes Mr. Gradgrind’s speech to a group of young students, and it is appropriate that Gradgrind physically embodies the dry, hard facts that he crams into his students’ heads. The narrator calls attention to Gradgrind’s “square coat, square legs, square shoulders,” all of which suggest Gradgrind’s unrelenting rigidity.
Education is not about JUST facts,

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 11:19 AM

Not so very long ago there was a very fine gander. He was strong and smooth and beautiful and he spent most of his time singing to his wife and children. One day somebody who saw him strutting up and down in his yard and singing remarked, "There is a very proper gander." An old hen overheard this and told her husband about it that night in the roost. "They said something about propaganda," she said. "I have always suspected that," said the rooster, and he went around the barnyard next day telling everybody that the very fine gander was a dangerous bird, more than likely a hawk in gander's clothing. A small brown hen remembered a time when at a great distance she had seen the gander talking with some hawks in the forest. "They were up to no good," she said. A duck remembered that the gander had once told him he did not believe in anything. "He said to hell with the flag, too," said the duck. A guinea hen recalled that she had once seen somebody who looked very much like the gander throw something that looked a great deal like a bomb. Finally everybody snatched up sticks and stones and descended on the gander's house. He was strutting in his front yard, singing to his children and his wife. "There he is!" everybody cried. "Hawk-lover! Unbeliever! Flag-hater! Bomb-thrower!" So they set upon him and drove him out of the country.

Moral: Anybody who you or your wife thinks is going to overthrow the government by violence must be driven out of the country.

It had to be said.

Back when "history" in Virginia meant The war of northern aggression, I would have had no problem calling it Propaganda. Now, it is a lot closer to history.

But math? Physics? Oh, wait, we did learn Avogadro *and Ampere's* Law in French school. Hmmm. It is Avogadro's Law everywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 02:00 PM

During my postgraduate year of gaining my Certificate of Education qualification, we were asked to study Hard Times by Dickens, as a warning against being too pedestrian/rigid in our teaching methods.
While I firmly believe in presenting only The Truth, an inspired teacher can get the pupils examining, assessing, comparing, forming opinions etc. It's not just posting 'facts' into their heads.
I have to add that 'education' can and should be entertaining too, especially at Primary level. Young people learn more effectively if they're enjoying their lessons!

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 02:27 PM

Mrrzy, Go to your room! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 02:36 PM

Joe, it's a time-honored tradition here to be vague about whatever point you may or may not be making.

The gander story is a cautionary tale about believing rumors.
You have to put more trust on what people do than what they say, and THEN, be aware that your interpretation of events may not be 100% accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 02:45 PM

Well, no, Jeri. It was the pun I was speaking about. "Proper gander!"

That definitely deserves a time-out.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 02:57 PM

Education shows you how to think

Propaganda shows you what to think

As a victim of Catholic schools from 1958 to 1969 I can confirm that this was certainly more propaganda than education. Fortunately experience, friends and a lot of luck resulted in the well balanced person you see today :-)

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 03:00 PM

I have no problem with maths, but 'math' is plainly English gone wrong!!!

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 03:08 PM

I went to Catholic schools for 16 years, from 1953 to 1970. I don't think my education was propaganda at all. The emphasis was on critical thinking, not indoctrination. However, I have seen people who went to Catholic schools who seem to be victims of indoctrination rather than education. I don't think you can make a blanket statement about Catholic education, because it varies widely.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 03:22 PM

Joe, I'm still on the tail end of a migraine. A downer,
Oops. That pun was terrible, and should be remarked upon. Or something.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:16 PM

You are seeing slurs on all Catholic education where there are none, Joe. I commented on my education, not anyone else's. Sounds like your education was fine so why so defensive? Maybe other people were not so lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:19 PM

Hear that? No blanket statements allowed.
No one says they are independantly choosing to go to a religious school for the propaganda. No one knowingly joins a cult. They assume they are doing a good thing. I do not think a person emerging from the process of education/indoctrination can ever be a totally unbiased observer. Victims of the process, yes but not the 'believers'.
And with what does such a person have to contrast and compare?
For example I never had to wrestle with the issue that pedophilia was the price one paid for doing good elsewhere. I do not have a credo we are ALL sinners anyway.

Joe ever since you said you believe Lindburg would have been good for America, FDR was a liability to freedom and the bears ears incident had you siding with Trump or that you believe I am an evil misinformation monger, I was assured you had drunk the KOOL AID, just not enough to kill you. I have since seen you grow wiser, glacially, but wiser all the same. Then again over 20 years anyone might have a bout with ahasia or delusion and say stupid things.
Keep helping the hungry bro.

Bend the stem and thus grows the tree.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 05:44 PM

Sorry Dick, that won't wash. A typo would be if you had used a I or a P or a K or L.

The A on a Querty keyboard does not allow for a "typo" It is on the opposite end of the keyboard.

Once again I would suggest you are merely trying for foment disagreement.

Quelle surprise!

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:08 PM

I don't have a clue what he was talking about. I kinda like that.
I (am I agreeing with Raggy?) also think people are trying, a bit desperately, to find a fight, although disagreements aren't really to be found.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:41 PM

Gee Raggytash.... I often make typos that have little relation to where on the keyboard they originate. I spell in my head as I do (go!) and very ofhten (see?) his (see!!) keys that are two or 3 spaces away from the right letter by thinking too fast. If they end up being actual words, my spelcheher doesn't even notice. We don't all make the same kinds of mistakes in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:52 PM

BTW.. *mathematics* is not a plural! It is a mass noun.

Uncountable common nouns are known as mass nouns. Some are uncountable because they’re abstract or can’t be divided into discrete units—for example:

bravery
music
evidence
water
countryside
humanity

Other mass nouns are used to denote indeterminate aggregations of things that in other terms may be countable. For example, furniture is a mass noun even when it denotes an understood number of pieces of furniture. Here are a few other examples:

sushi
faculty
media
luggage
meat
garbage
majority

Most mass nouns, especially the abstract ones, usually take a singular verb

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Jos
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:35 AM

Not always. A few examples:

'By the Waters of Babylon'
her waters broke
he had lost his faculties
some candidates were elected by large majorities

and 'media' is the plural of 'medium'.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 03:40 AM

Donuel and Dave the Gnome - both of you are almost as good as Trump at distorting the words of others. I guess it's not worth arguing with you. Donuel, I didn't say any of those things you attribute to me; and DaveGnome, all I said is that one can't make a blanket statement about Catholic education because some have good experiences and some bad. What's the phrase about engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed person? Looks like I'm up against two of them here.

-Joe-

“Never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.”

attributed (perhaps incorrectly) to Winston Churchill

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:00 AM

Joe you state that DtG is distorting the words of others. You suggest he is making a blanket statement about Catholic education. Perhaps you should read again what he actually wrote.

"You are seeing slurs on all Catholic education where there are none, Joe. I commented on my education, not anyone else's. Sounds like your education was fine so why so defensive? Maybe other people were not so lucky."

Again from a personal point of view my catholic education seemed more like propaganda than education. DtG and I are of a similar age and grew up in the same city (although we didn't know each other). Perhaps catholic education was like that ONLY in Manchester in the late 50's, all through the 60' and into the early 70's although I somehow doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:32 AM

No, Joe, your post was obviously in reply to mine so you were addressing me personally when you said "I don't think you can make a blanket statement about Catholic education," Had you have said "one can't make a blanket statement about Catholic education" I would have agreed but that is not what you said.

As to your personal attack on me all I can say is that it does not reflect well on your self proclaimed education in critical thinking. It is lazy, cliched and seems to indicate that you have run out of any real or original arguments. It does not become you and is a very poor example of moderated discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:42 AM

Education allows you to spell Propaganda correctly.

Typo? Spelling? There are bogey words that despite years or re-visiting, the spelling doesn't stick. If you stop and think, you might check, but when in full flow....................

And I see it in others, different bogey words, that to me are obvious.
And don't get me started on throwing senior moments into the mix.

I guess you have to take a proper gander at what you type.

OK, OK, I'll get my coat.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:58 AM

Thank you Mr. Red.

Spleling are importont. Sose grammer!

(If Grammer were alive she'd have my hide!)

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 08:35 AM

My wife went to a very catholic school in Buenos Aires for a while and hated every minute of it. The nuns were brutal at beating Catholicism into the girls, total indoctrination, hideous people. Thank goodness her grandfather rescued her and paid for private schooling.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 09:07 AM

Bill, its never too late for me too learn about mass nouns.
They sound heavy.



Ya know Joe I am not AP. I have an editorial cartoon background so sometimes sarcasm gets the best of me. I expect a classic 2 dimensional person like yourself gets confused by the lack of absolute linear consistancy in presentations. Of course you say what you do and deny it later since you are the hero in your own story. Psychologically you can not see past yourself in a predetermined manner. Don't worry thats fairly normal. You are like Trump because you believe the lies you tell about others. As for what you can not remember, of course I remember better than you the defensive, untrue, disrespectful things you have said about me for 20 years. Your current glacial growth is still a good thing. Lifelong religious indoctrination has its costs and benefits. There are different ways to respond to spiritual athiests like myself Joe.
It might be helpful, ecumenical and eye opening.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 11:18 AM

Am I still in time out?

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:06 PM

You never were, Mrr. But apparently I am.
I'm outa here.
Can't deal with the idiots.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:39 PM

Hit and run now, Joe? I thought better of you. Abusing someone and then withdrawing is not exactly critical thinking or sound argument is it.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:41 PM

Apparently, some people in the UK are not sophisticated enough to understand that "you" and "one" are often interchangeable in other English-speaking parts of the world. It ain't worth fighting about.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:22 PM

Whatever, Joe.

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:26 PM

Don'l:

You are the most Trump-like poster in Mudcat. For a long time. You can be counted on for misspellings, presumptive pseudo-data, self aggrandizement and mythomania, and frequent mostly erroneous references to science and technology.

But, you are not a liar. Like our current occupant, you are a bullsh*tter. You do not have enough respect for the truth to know or care where you are in relation to it. Just like the 'T' man. Or Rush.

This is not a criticism. It is a description. You occasionally post things that are clever, informative and have the charm of the random prevaricator.

If you stopped posting I would miss you. Not that I'm worried at the possibility!

I think you owe Joe an apology.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:52 PM

i am sorry that this thread has ended acrimoniously.
education in my opinion could,, provide the opportunity for children to learn to question, challenge. think ahead, solve problems, i think if any society hopes to advance progress and discover new inventions it needs to encourage the best brainsand to simulate its children.
not use schools to accept and swallow so called facts, or indoctrinate them with establishment propaganda , be it soviet stalinist rhetoric or capitalist or religous ideology or dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:09 PM

[sigh]

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:01 PM

It has just been pointed out to me how much stress people in the US are at the moment. Hopefully it will get better next Tuesday. In the interim, I apologise if I added to your troubles, Joe, and I forgive your personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 10:51 PM

We're having quite the election busy-ness in Alaska. There has been a lot of money invested in the Democratic office seekers for the House and Senate. I've never seen such a push of expensive well formulated advertisements in the air and on the web (unfortunately fear based just as the Repubs are). We also have a couple of Ballot Measures with a lot of money on both sides. I am getting daily phone calls for polling and participation.

I even saw a bumper sticker:

"January 20, 2021: End of An Error"

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:56 AM

It was well said by that guru of self-sufficiency, John Seymour, that knowledge is something you have to go and grab for yourself, not something that you have poured over you. In the mid-1980s, when Margaret Thatcher was emasculating our trade unions and inventing instruments of control over teachers, she made the deliberate mistake of imposing a national curriculum that was impossibly stuffed with content. There was no room left for diversions or imaginative dwelling. She turned schools into testing machines in league tables and teachers into box-tickers. In effect she tried to abolish education in its true sense. Philistinism writ large.

There's no such thing as Catholic education. My Catholic school was full of teachers of both religion and all the other subjects who were unimaginative, controlling and boring, with just the occasional maverick who loved his subject and had the talent to infect us with his enthusiasm. I had two lecturers at university who were also like that, the rest being largely about making sure you coughed up to buy their latest book.

No-one is arguing that teaching must be fact-free. You can't teach children English (or anything else) if you don't teach them the alphabet a day the basis of spelling, etc., and chanting times tables is a pretty valuable start in maths. But real education has three crucial elements: infecting with enthusiasm, showing how to find and connect together knowledge, and persuading that everything should be critically questioned. The religious teaching I received at school failed all those three tests. Mythology was poured over us in the guise of truth and critical questioning, or boldly asking for evidence, was almost regarded as heretical. Whether you call that propaganda or not is slightly beside the point: good propaganda is often just half of the truth. There wasn't much of that flying around in my religion lessons.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:11 AM

Oh reading specs, where art thou?

"the alphabet a day the basis of spelling" should read "the alphabet and the basics of spelling."

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 10:17 AM

I think the US considers that teaching should be fact-free.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 10:49 AM

In the US, as with everywhere else, I'm certain that you will find a lot of good teaching being done against the odds by hardworking teachers who operate those three principles of real education. Those people should be cherished and protected.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 10:52 AM

Now come along, mods. All three of you have posted to this thread, but not one of you has corrected the spelling error in the thread title. The world is watching us, you know!

[Your wish is our command]

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 12:11 PM

What else can you expect when they speak English gone wrong!!!

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:02 PM

Not so. Many "American" spellings were English spellings once upon a time, and, in m'humble, many make a lot more sense than ours.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:53 PM

Did somebody say "National Curriculum"? In a minute someone will say "Ofsted". And I shall jump in the river Wensum down the road.