BS: education and propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 01:07 PM

Interesting etymological note above...

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 12:07 PM

typo again PROPAGANDA

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 12:07 PM

i repeat if children are educated properly they need to be fed properly, children will not perform to their best if they arrive at school hungry. however children and afdults will accept propoganda if they are hungry because they are unable to think properly.
ok i am discussing education and propoganda

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: BobL
Date: 04 Nov 20 - 03:39 AM

The way I bring up my kids is education. The people I fundamentally disagree with bring up theirs is indoctrination.
In the OP's words - is there any difference?

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 12:33 PM

It depends on what you mean by "education," and what you mean by "propaganda."

In general use, the meanings are distinct.

Simply to say "there's not much difference," without defining your terms, is just tendentious.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 08:45 AM

I have a friend who gets the non-headache migraines. The first time she got one, she freaked out and went to the hospital. Completely blind in one eye. Blood vessels expand and press on nerves. I have to go take my car in for work, then vote. I suppose I'll get another type of headache from watching election returns.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 07:26 AM

Early propaganda persists the best. Propaganda is perinicious and comes in many forms attacking/infecting many senses. I bet there is even a double reverse psychology propaganda. There have been times I was caught flat footed like most Americans regarding initial incidents and its propaganda effects.

What the heck, is there a connection between migraine symptoms and prolific posters? I wonder where the auras originate in the brain; the optic nerve, the occipital region, the crossover of optic nerves midbrain or if it is from global vascular swelling.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Jos
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 07:04 AM

I too get the "expanding, scintillating, multicoloured, jagged broken ring", still there even if I close my eyes. In fact I rather enjoy it. There is no headache or any other adverse effect except that I have to wait a few minutes after it first starts glinting in the middle of my vision, until it spreads out enough for me to look through the clear area in the middle and carry on reading or whatever else I am doing.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 06:16 AM

I get those too, Steve. They aren’t followed by an actual headache, but my head feels as though it’s stuffed with socks and I have difficulty thinking properly (a bit like a diabetic hypo without the shakes and sweats).

I pop a couple of paracetamol, close the curtains, close my eyes, and wait to feel better - usually 30-45 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 05:27 AM

I was about 60-ish when I started getting migraine auras (the expanding, scintillating, multicoloured, jagged broken ring) but have never followed up with headache. I don't feel great for an hour or two after, but that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 04:16 AM

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 12:42 PM

Migraines normally become painless after 60 for men.
Mine did.
how does that help Jeri?

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 10:02 PM

Certainly! And we need to clean them out beginning in Jan.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 08:23 PM

Well, Bill, whether deliberate or not, it's falsehoods.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 06:56 PM

Steve.. the problem is that whether the extreme "religious instruction" you refer to is lies... or not ... depends on each mind doing the 'indoctrination'. We can't read minds and whether it's intentional lies or simply unswerving belief is impossible to know directly. The fact is, there is little practical difference.
Here, we have Trump spouting falsehoods and mis-information daily... but whether he **believes** the crap he spouts is irrelevant. It is a danger to society!

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 05:44 PM

A slight issue I have with saying that religion is propaganda is that this does a disservice to propaganda. Propaganda may well contain some lies and some half-truths, and, at best, it's promoting "truth" from a very one-sided point of view (your side) and may be omitting uncomfortable "truths" from the other side that might have counterbalanced your "truths" or even negated them. On the other hand, religious instruction (I'm trying to be diplomatic by avoiding words such as indoctrination or proselytising), of the type I was subjected to at school, is entirely predicated on lies. I think there is a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 02:18 PM

When I see "propaganda", I think of education, government,marketing and culture..
So, I was puzzled as to why propaganda seemed to quickly lead to the topic of religion, in this case Christianity.
But, when I looked up the word, this quote came up.

"The word (propaganda) had been coined in 1622, when Pope Gregory XV, frightened by the global spread of Protestantism, urgently proposed an addition to the Roman curia. The Office for the Propagation of the Faith (Congregatio de propaganda fide) would supervise the Church’s missionary efforts in the New World and elsewhere: “They are to take account of and to deal with each and every concern for the spread of the faith throughout the world."
Edward L. Bernays

This leads me to another quote.

"Christians and Muslims who could not agree on religious beliefs could nevertheless agree on a monetary belief, because whereas religion asks us to believe in something, money asks us to believe that other people believe in something."
Yuval Noah Harari

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 12:42 PM

Migraines normally become painless after 60 for men.
Mine did.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 12:07 PM

hello jeri , hope your migraine is better, horrible things to suffer from

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 11:16 AM

My wife went to a catholic school in Brighton NY and had the war of northern aggression textbooks while I went to public school in NYS but learned about the civil war. Today she is an expert on the Civil war and I am not.

I once had a satin down comforter that left me freezing in the middle of the night. It was so slippery it always slipped of the bed.
-A real blanket statement-

Now Joe do I need more evidence to prove each and every declarative statement or can we all go back to good faith. People are using real punching bags in this time of stress. Here we even have $40 dollars per session of smash and break business' to relieve stress.
I say ego is the enemy but I am not immune to it. While I abhor misinformation, being accused of being a misinformation monster caught me off guard.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 10:17 AM

Virginia AP [!] history text claimed the bible as history when my kids were in high school.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 08:49 AM

I think you can read Donuel's "religious schools in NYS" as being "the religious school I'm familiar with". I had a few friends who went to Catholic schools, and they seemed to think it was the Civil War.

When I was scoring tests, I remember there was one response from a kid in an un-named state in the south, who answered a question about fossils something along the lines of "The Earth is only 6,000 years old, so those dinosaur bones were put there by people, but what you WANT me to say is..." and then, the kid gave a perfect answer. Kid got full credit. Education, after all, is about providing a base of information.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 08:09 AM

I guess NYS is New York State. What schools were those, Donuel? And which schools in Texas have creation science textbooks? I suppose both are possible, but not widespread.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 07:36 AM

Religious schools in NYS had textbooks that taught The WAR of Northern Aggression while other schools taught the Civil War.

I guess there is a war of the textbooks?
Maybe southern textbooks were cheaper?

Some Texas science textbooks include creation science.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: peteglasgow
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 06:45 AM

always thought that religion is a really fascinating subject(s) and (like politics and philosophy) should be a key subject in schools. but i can't see a need for 'religious' schools - where it should be illegal to promote one religion over another. in fact the same should be true in any family - by all means we can tell our kids about what people believe but it must be entirely up to them which god(s) they choose and which church to belong to, if any. maybe at age 18, or later. sadly an incredible amount of harm has been done by bullying impressionable young minds.....

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 02:54 AM

Gee whilikers! Or something like that. I gave up on this thread about 1/3 in- decided that this pandemic is doing a number on us all.

For the record, Joe O- I know you- and I know you never said anything even remotely like what Donuel charged.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propaganda
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 09:39 PM

thanks, mud-elves.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 04:16 PM

Red, like when orange says Covid is gone? Some people who believed him are now blue. If you don't believe him you are called yellow.
Ultra violet does help.
Hopefully orange will soon turn green with envy.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 04:12 PM

yes, when WILL the 'propoganda' become 'propaganda' in the thread title?

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 09:53 AM

"Your wish is our command"

Well, take your time, take your time. No rush...

{thought it was done the other day. done now}

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:54 AM

Mr Red - I use “Have a nice day” in place of “Fuck off”. But I’m a UK-er, so.....

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 05:01 AM

Apparently, some people in the UK are not sophisticated enough to understand that "you" and "one" are often interchangeable in other English-speaking parts of the world.

"Two countries separated by a common language" - GBS

It cuts both ways Joe. Intelligence is no defence, but we can exclude one & you from falling pray (sic). Yea, Yea, but before I don my coat:

Can anyone stateside elucidate the real implication of using the epithet .................

"Have a nice day"   ?

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:12 PM

Aaaaaaagh! Fetch me my swimming costume! I'm off to the river!!

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 04:45 PM

Ofsted was one of those instruments of control over teachers I referred to in that longer post. The1265 hours and directed time, as well as those Baker Days, were among the others. Don't get me started.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:53 PM

Did somebody say "National Curriculum"? In a minute someone will say "Ofsted". And I shall jump in the river Wensum down the road.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 02:02 PM

Not so. Many "American" spellings were English spellings once upon a time, and, in m'humble, many make a lot more sense than ours.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 12:11 PM

What else can you expect when they speak English gone wrong!!!

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 10:52 AM

Now come along, mods. All three of you have posted to this thread, but not one of you has corrected the spelling error in the thread title. The world is watching us, you know!

[Your wish is our command]

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 10:49 AM

In the US, as with everywhere else, I'm certain that you will find a lot of good teaching being done against the odds by hardworking teachers who operate those three principles of real education. Those people should be cherished and protected.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 10:17 AM

I think the US considers that teaching should be fact-free.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:11 AM

Oh reading specs, where art thou?

"the alphabet a day the basis of spelling" should read "the alphabet and the basics of spelling."

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 05:56 AM

It was well said by that guru of self-sufficiency, John Seymour, that knowledge is something you have to go and grab for yourself, not something that you have poured over you. In the mid-1980s, when Margaret Thatcher was emasculating our trade unions and inventing instruments of control over teachers, she made the deliberate mistake of imposing a national curriculum that was impossibly stuffed with content. There was no room left for diversions or imaginative dwelling. She turned schools into testing machines in league tables and teachers into box-tickers. In effect she tried to abolish education in its true sense. Philistinism writ large.

There's no such thing as Catholic education. My Catholic school was full of teachers of both religion and all the other subjects who were unimaginative, controlling and boring, with just the occasional maverick who loved his subject and had the talent to infect us with his enthusiasm. I had two lecturers at university who were also like that, the rest being largely about making sure you coughed up to buy their latest book.

No-one is arguing that teaching must be fact-free. You can't teach children English (or anything else) if you don't teach them the alphabet a day the basis of spelling, etc., and chanting times tables is a pretty valuable start in maths. But real education has three crucial elements: infecting with enthusiasm, showing how to find and connect together knowledge, and persuading that everything should be critically questioned. The religious teaching I received at school failed all those three tests. Mythology was poured over us in the guise of truth and critical questioning, or boldly asking for evidence, was almost regarded as heretical. Whether you call that propaganda or not is slightly beside the point: good propaganda is often just half of the truth. There wasn't much of that flying around in my religion lessons.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 10:51 PM

We're having quite the election busy-ness in Alaska. There has been a lot of money invested in the Democratic office seekers for the House and Senate. I've never seen such a push of expensive well formulated advertisements in the air and on the web (unfortunately fear based just as the Repubs are). We also have a couple of Ballot Measures with a lot of money on both sides. I am getting daily phone calls for polling and participation.

I even saw a bumper sticker:

"January 20, 2021: End of An Error"

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:01 PM

It has just been pointed out to me how much stress people in the US are at the moment. Hopefully it will get better next Tuesday. In the interim, I apologise if I added to your troubles, Joe, and I forgive your personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:09 PM

[sigh]

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:52 PM

i am sorry that this thread has ended acrimoniously.
education in my opinion could,, provide the opportunity for children to learn to question, challenge. think ahead, solve problems, i think if any society hopes to advance progress and discover new inventions it needs to encourage the best brainsand to simulate its children.
not use schools to accept and swallow so called facts, or indoctrinate them with establishment propaganda , be it soviet stalinist rhetoric or capitalist or religous ideology or dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:26 PM

Don'l:

You are the most Trump-like poster in Mudcat. For a long time. You can be counted on for misspellings, presumptive pseudo-data, self aggrandizement and mythomania, and frequent mostly erroneous references to science and technology.

But, you are not a liar. Like our current occupant, you are a bullsh*tter. You do not have enough respect for the truth to know or care where you are in relation to it. Just like the 'T' man. Or Rush.

This is not a criticism. It is a description. You occasionally post things that are clever, informative and have the charm of the random prevaricator.

If you stopped posting I would miss you. Not that I'm worried at the possibility!

I think you owe Joe an apology.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:22 PM

Whatever, Joe.

Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:41 PM

Apparently, some people in the UK are not sophisticated enough to understand that "you" and "one" are often interchangeable in other English-speaking parts of the world. It ain't worth fighting about.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:39 PM

Hit and run now, Joe? I thought better of you. Abusing someone and then withdrawing is not exactly critical thinking or sound argument is it.

Subject: RE: BS: education and propoganda
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 02:06 PM

You never were, Mrr. But apparently I am.
I'm outa here.
Can't deal with the idiots.
-Joe Offer-