Lyr Add: Mr. Lincoln (Hank Williams Jr.)

Subject: Lyr Add: MR. LINCOLN (Hank Williams Jr.)
From: Mbo
Date: 08 Jan 00 - 08:39 PM

I'm posting this song for 2 reasons:
1.) Because it's a good song, and I want to share it with others, and
2.) To dispell the fact sounded on another thread that Hank Williams Jr. is a worthless piece of garbage because he's not his father.

MR. LINCOLN
Words & Music by Hank Williams Jr.
--from "The Pilgrim"

Mr.Lincoln, I wish you were here
The Republic's changed a lot in a hundred years
And I don't think it's working like you planned
Oh Mr.Lincoln, we sure could use a hand

I just read the headlines in the Nashville news
And I wish I had made this up, but I'm afraid it's true
'Cause a man was murdered for his money in the street
He was taking his wife to a nice place to eat
When they caught the man, he did 23 months of time
He pled insanity like they do now all the time
Sir, what would you have done in 1859?
Now if you shoot someone, you can get off Scot-free
It's the latest thing, Mr.Lincoln, can you believe?
Now they sue the manufacturers of the gun
Ain't the law changed a lot since 1861?

Mr.Lincoln, I wish you were here
'Cause things have changed a lot in a hundred years
And I don't think it's working out like you planned
Oh, Mr.Lincoln, we sure could use a hand

I just heard the news story on the radio
They let dangerous men out of prisons now, yes Sir, I'm afraid it's so
'Cause they're overcrowded, and it was only his 5th offense
Yeah, and this time he's killed someone, does that make any sense?
Now my lawyer called me about a nuisance case
'Cause everybody sues over any little thing these days
Well, at least we're right, all we gotta do is tell the truth
He said "You're living in the past, you romantic fool!"
I said "You got that right! I lean toward the older ways.
And there's damn few backwoods lawyers left today."

Mr.Lincoln, I wish you were here
The Republic's changed a lot in a hundred years
And I don't think it's working out like you planned
Oh, Mr.Lincoln, we sure could use a hand

Mr.Lincoln, please could you come here?
'Cause things have changed a lot in a hundred years
And I don't think it's working like you planned
Oh, Mr.Lincoln, we sure could use a hand

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 03:05 AM

I dunno, Embo, somehow that doesn't make me think of him as a worthy heir to Hank Senior...Junior's usual subjects are partying, getting laid ("by women I never had"), and right wing philosophy. True, violent criminals sometimes don't get all they deserve, but sometimes also the innocent are convicted (and the Supreme Court refused to stop an execution in Texas: Renquist, writing the opinion for the majority, said something to the effect that at that stage in the proceedings evidence of innocence was irrelevant. The prisons are full of non-violent criminals, the courts and prosecutors and public defenders are all overworked--often, pleas to lesser offenses are accepted just because there's no way for the system to function without them.

And tougher laws often have consequences very different from those intended by lawmakers or voters: "Use a gun, go to jail" laws end up meaning that a man who beats his wife to death spends far less time than a woman who, out of fear for her life, shoots her husband.

That's my problem with songs like Junior's Mr. Lincoln...they vastly oversimplify issues--from the point of view of those in power (folk songs generally represent the view of the downtrodden).

--

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Marymac90
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 04:14 AM

Dear Mbo,

I have to say I agree with seed here. Lincoln was noted more for his mercy than his vengefullness-he spared the life of someone who had deserted under fire. Junior's sentiments more sound like the theme song for a militia or KKK branch.

Prisons are now often a big for-profit business. Justice still is dispensed with racial prejudice-Blacks and Hispanics typically get much longer sentences for using crack than whites do for using powder cocaine. The "Three Strikes " law puts offenders away for very long periods for relatively low-level offenses. Building prisons in remote rural areas means that families in urban areas can rarely get to see imprisoned relatives. It also contributes to further polarization between white guards and Black and Hispanic prisoners.

To compare this to the genius of Hank Sr, who could, in a few words and a simple melody, capture the essence of an emotion like lonliness, in a way that's been matched by few and exceeded by none in half a century, is to come up pretty shabby.

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Mbo
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 12:19 PM

Sigh....well, I have always liked the song...question--does that make "Bohemian Rhapsody" a more socially acceptable song because it's about a victim of society? Just wondering. I guess it's like Charles Dickens said "Everyone to their own taste, as the old woman said when she kissed the crow."

"You'd better leave those boys alone And let 'em sing their song 'Cause you know their gonna do whatever they want If you don't like the way they sing Who's gonna cast the first stone? Why don't you leave those boys alone And let 'em sing their song."
--Ernest Tubb, Waylon Jennings, and Hank Williams Jr.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Gene
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 04:05 PM

Some songs that provide a much better picture of the REAL HANK WILLIAMS, Jr. - are:

Eleven Roses
I With Red Foley When He Died
Long Black Limousine
HANK! [about Hank, Sr.]
When He Sang [about Hank, Sr.]
Livin' Proof
I'm Prayin' For The Day That Peace Will Come
and MANY others...

Anyone SERIOUSLY interested in Hank, Jr. -
contact me via: - * This website - click here *

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Mbo
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 05:36 PM

Thanks Gene, those are GREAT songs. I'm sorry if the song I posted offended some. I didn't know that it had that effect on people. I don't mean to be nasty or anything, but your words about the song have made me feel stupid and mean even though I do still like it, although I have no support whatsoever for the KKK & militia groups. I think I'll head over the Mudcat Tavern--I need a tear in my beer.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 05:43 PM

Mbo, I guess I have a selective memory about Junior, too. I recall some of the songs on Gene's list, and there's more to him than the subjects I listed. I haven't been listening to much country, lately (they don't play enough Reba).

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Gene
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 06:23 PM

Mbo:
I wasn't criticizing your pick of songs...
I like "Give Us A Reason [about Sadam?]"
just as well, and several others...
Was just pointing out he did many VERY GOOD
recordings before the outlaw years-
as did Willie Nelson...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From:
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 06:33 PM

Dear Mbo,

I don't feel particularly offended by the song. I just feel that it looks at the problem through a rather narrow lens, not seeing the whole picture. I didn't want to make you feel like you're mean, but I did want to try to broaden your horizon. I can understand why some people may feel that we are too lax with criminals, but it is imposssible for me to accept imprisonment of any innocent people, long terms for victimless crimes, a prison system that makes no effort to rehabilitate prisoners, and unequal terms handed out to those of different races. As far as the death penalty goes, I don't believe in that at all, for anyone. Two wrongs never make a right.

I admit I'm unfamiliar with the songs of Jr's that Gene named. I could be wrong, but I tend to think if Jr. had shown much of his dad's genius, I would have heard about it. "I'm so lonesome I could cry" is like a haiku in a song-a few words, a few crystal-clear images, a simple melody that evokes exactly the right feeling for the words.

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 06:50 PM

Mbo...you're a man of taste!

This is my all-time favorite Hank, Jr. tune. And while some of the previous letters indicate a "PC" outlook on whatever passes for (their) reality, if they'd go back and read the lyrics (and think a bit) they might realize that there's a lot of reality in that song.

2 big thumbs up!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 08:49 PM

It's funny that "PC" label - I can see how when yiou disagree with somone'point of view yiuy can say that they are wrong, or naive or even insincere. And then you might get into an argument about the issues involved.

But throw in that label, and it turns into something else. It's a way of saying that you aren't worth arguing with, and diverting attention from the actual difference of opinion.

And it so often seems to get used in this way against minority opinions - for example I'd have thought that in America being in favour of the death penalty or the right to bear arms and so forth would be preeminently entitled to be called "PC". "Politically correct" surely should mean the things you espouse if you want to get elected.

And on that interpretation I'd have though Hank Junior's song is about as "PC" as you can get.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 10:21 PM

Very well put, McGrath. And that, of course, is exactly the way it is most frequently used, to characterize progressive opinion in this most unprogressive of industrialized societies.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Gene
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 10:48 PM

FWIW:
To: Mary and others...
Notice that I asked any one SERIOUSLY
[and without a closed mind, I might add]
interested in HANK, Jr...to contact me.
I will upload songs to my website of
Hank Jr. that gives a more balanced picture
of Hank, Jr. through the years...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 10:59 PM

I'm about to check Junior's lyrics at Cowpie.

--the PC and closedminded seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:49 AM

I just spent an hour or so reading Junior's lyrics (19 songs: all they had--but certainly nowhere near his total output)--and I missed a couple of his subjects: I'm Hank's son: poor me or lucky me or I'm me anyway, and some woman's done me wrong (possibly because I done her wrong first)(it's hard to be true when you're trolling for groupies). Junior is a good singer with a good band behind him, but his songs (does anyone cover them?).

Then I spent a few minutes with Lyle Lovett as an antidote.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 09:21 AM

McGrath & Seed...

My, my, my..."PC" (as I meant it in my missive) simply means "Politically correct", as opposed to well-thought out...While a lot of Hank Jr. tunes aren't very "deep", that one ("Mr. Lincoln") certainly is...

As for the comment about the racism of our judicial system, this is certainly true...perhaps the racially mistreated can just stay out of jail ...maybe by not breaking the law...I've found this method works for me, a Cherokee (BTW, there are N.A.s in jail/prison too, but they're primarily incarcerated due to their own law-breaking!)

As for gun control...(heehee) if you can put a full clip in a 9" circle at 35 yards or further...that's gun control!

Gracious!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From:
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 01:52 PM

It just strikes me that the way people throw the term "Politically Correct" around seems strange to me. What you'd think a term like that would mean would be that in any society there would be certain things taken for granted so that most people accepted them as basic common sense, and that this would be reflected in the way they used language.

That would mean that on that definition in different times and places different things would be seen as PC. And on that definition the ideas in Hank Junior's song would I suspect be pretty PC in the USA 2000AD.

I prefer to see the way we use words as being courteous or discourteous, kind or unkmind, respectful and disrespectful. Different times and places different count as courteous or discourteous, and you keep your ears and eyes open to try and avoid hurting people who don't dersrve to be hurt. That's just being polite and treating people decently.

And there's lots of room for disagreement and discussion about what words are polite and what aren't. And it matters. The labels you give people can make a big difference, even life and death difference sometimes. Words like nigger and yid and foetus and cripple.

But when people start throwing around labels like "PC" or "Non-PC", in that kind of context, it just confuses the process of thinking and exchanging ideas. And that's often what it's meant to do.

I really think we should save the term PC for the machine I'm using at the moment, or for Police Constables.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 04:36 PM

That last post timed at 1.52 was mine, and it wasn't meant to be anonymous. My cookie had crummbled or something.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 08:03 PM

Terry, people are let out on technicalities because the police screwed up and violated their (our) constitutional rights to due process, to protection from illegal search and seizure and self incrimination, and because either they could afford a good attorney or they lucked out and got a public defender who wasn't overworked, stupid, or jaded. Plea bargains happen because of overcrowded courts, overworked prosecutors, jammed jails. There are far more people in prisons who don't belong there than there are those on the street who should have been locked up. I was once in a jury panel for a trial of a black man who had been charged with burglary--he had been arrested for shoplifting in Lafayette, an upper middle class suburb, but was himself from Richmond, the old town of which consisted mainly of abandoned storefronts (this is California, of course). I was dismissed from the panel when I responded to voir-dire questioning that I was having difficulty with the concept of felonious intent to commit a misdemeanor. My assumption was--and is--that the defendant had been charged with a felony to scare him into accepting a plea bargain to avoid wasting time on a trial.

--seed(who can't understand why the questions of the song are addressed to "Mr. Lincoln" unless the idea is to call into question the end of slavery)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 02:01 AM

A brief expansion of my parenthesis in my previous post:

Abraham Lincoln is generally credited with doing two things, preserving the Union and ending slavery. Logically there would be no relationship between those things for which he is remembered and the situation described in the song: Lincoln was not involved in creation of the Bill of Rights, the constitutional basis for the Supreme Court's protection of the rights of the citizens against arbitrary arrest, against torture, against "illegal search and seizure," the right to representation by counsel and trial by a jury of the citizen's peers, protections which justified the Court's rulings like Miranda (arrestees must not be denied counsel and must be informed they have the right). Such Court decisions are seen by conservatives as handcuffing the police.

So the only thing Lincoln did that could be related to the situation described in the song--and then only by assuming the murderer was black--is ending slavery. If blacks were still slaves, the song seems to me to be saying, our streets would be safe. The only thing deep about the song is the fog Junior is trying to spread over his own racism by pretending he is honoring Abraham Lincoln.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 02:58 AM

Mbo you've hit on a great song by HW Jr. Lincoln, was a good choice; so would both Roosevelts (Teddy was my favourite) sadly we do not have their calibre (no pun intended) or wisdom around today. When people are attaching moral culpability to inanimate objects, you cannot expect a rational judiciary. For example, the drunk driver is not to blame it is the car makers fault, why dont you sue Ford, GM, etc.....ad nauseum....Forgive me for this but: You'd better pray for intelligent life somewhere up in space cause there's bugger all down here on earth! Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 03:46 AM

Dave, that's a single line of the song, not the whole song. The song is addressed to Mr. Lincoln: nothing in it is possibly related to him except through slavery: Lincoln wasn't the planner of the republic. His plan, a more just society through the elimination of slavery, is what the song's attacking--that and the courts, which the writer blames for the murder.

Aye, Charles (seed)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 08:21 AM

Mr. Lincoln was one of the better presidents, and definately shaped the country known as the modern USA. He was an honest man; or reputed to be known as Honest Abe, if memory serves me right? (As opposed to a liar and cheat) His record in office as a man and president, stand as a memorial to his value in the modern world. In my home town (Rochdale England) there is a golden headed cane, to the people of Rochdale with gratitude from Abraham Lincoln. It was presented to us after his death by assasination. The reason? because although our main industry was dependant on cheap cotton from the south; Rochdale supported him; and our representatives were eventually instrumental in reversing the British parliaments support to the Confederacy. Back to music. I think the song is a brilliant testimony to a legal system gone insane; and a plea for a return to the wisdom of founding legislatures. Mr. Lincoln was a lawyer was he not? before politics. Self taught in poverty conditions too. I think Mr. Williams song is somewhat brilliant in its scope and choice of words. It is not my intent to trivialise, or ignore other issues raised by your good selves; merely to point out my own observations, and difference of opinion on the target, and original intent of his song. I cannot see the racism, implied or otherwise. Yours,Respectfully, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Mbo
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 08:33 AM

Yikes! If I had known this song was going to bring up so much political debating, I wouldn't have posted it. It's just a song folks! I think you're all reading too much into it. The overall story is: we live in a tough and unfair society. Perhaps if we had someone as wise, compasionate, and caring as Abraham Lincoln, we could solve some of these problems. I don't think the it's calling on Mr.Lincoln to come and kill all offenders and institute martial law--it's more of a plea that Mr.Lincoln would know how to come up with a way to fix things to be fair to EVERYONE. He's not blaming any one racial group for prison overcrowding--he's saying something else has do be done with criminals beside packing them into prisons and killing them off. Also, if the world valued honesty and the truth as Lincoln did, maybe we wouldn't be putting away so many innocent people. And just as Lincoln freed the slaves, he would free everyone, regardless of race, color, heritage, religion, or gender--and make a country that would be fair and work for it's people. Lincoln would calmy fight for the freedom of his people, helping the innocent, aided the wrong & offended, being just toward offenders AND understanding. He would care about each person, guilty or innocent, and try to help them, not put them away of electrocute them. When was the last time we had a president we all loved, and knew would protect us, no matter the circumstance? Someone we could trust to help us even if we were guilty. A guilty person is not always an evil bloodthirsty demon. EVERYONE has rights, and they should ALL be upheld. Mr. Lincoln was not a racist, or a Nazi, or a KKK member. He did not hate. He loved. That is what we need today, in this country--someone who loves people more than money or power or politics. Maybe if we had a few more "backwoods lawyers" we wouldn't have people killing each other because they'd love their fellow man too much. No matter what the color.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 08:51 AM

At the risk of drawing yet more "hostility"...

Lincoln was a great president.

We need honest men in office.

We get Reagans, Bushes, and Slick Willy (a fairly good president when he has his pants up). We get what we vote for.

The last good President we had was Mr. Carter...a good, honest and decent-minded man. He made the military-industrial complex VERY nervous, due to his unflagging honesty.

The Civil War had NOTHING to do with slavery...it was a war of economics. Slavery was dying out due to the invention of the cotton gin, which made slavery less and less economically feasible.

Slavery is a bad thing. Ignorance is worse. Blacks were not the only race ever enslaved...there was, in fact, a period when blacks owned whites (In N. Africa)...there were several instances when freed blacks owned other blacks in America...BTW, whites never went to Africa to catch slaves, they BOUGHT them from other Africans and Arabs...Slavery continues in Africa to this day.

None of this has ANYTHING to do with a very good song that HW Jr. sang.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Marymac90
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:28 AM

Dear Mbo,

Don't feel bad about posting this song and raising a controversy. Controversy is good. It goes along with free speech. As long as people are respectful of each other, it's good to explain the differences in opinion we have. Speaking of being respectful, I was a little brash when I painted you and Jr. with a militia/KKK brush.

But I do agree with seed that our legal system is unfairly weighted against some people and groups. I appreciate and agree with much of what you just said, Mbo. (I wish I could look at your post, and seed's, while I'm writing mine.)

I also agree with Terry A.H. that the civil war was not fought over slavery per se. However, what it was fought over was states rights-did states have the right to decide individually on issues LIKE slavery, Jim Crow, etc? Lincoln himself said if freeing some, all, or none of the slaves would help the union win, then he would do that. The union won, the slaves were freed, but that didn't make the problem of racism dissapear. There are statistics that show that the south has a higher rate of violent crimes than any other area of the country. Some theorists believe that this is a legacy of the violence that it took to impose slavery and racial injustice. It certainly has not been cured by heavy prison sentences, or high rates of executions.

Let's continue our dialog here. You can also email me at [e-mail] I can't seem to get onto my personal page to see messages there right now.

Best regards for all,

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 01:48 PM

"I read this in the paper...I heard this on the news."

And he then he goes on to write an editorial in verse about it.

I don't think that's how good songs work. You don't see the things happening, you just get comments about them at second or third hand. And you don't have any feeling he's setting out to challenge his audience, the way that say Vin Garbutt does. (Another songwriter who can sometimes be accused of writing editorials in verse.)

Forget the politics of it all for a moment. Think how Hank Senior would have sung about this kind of thing. Think how Woody Guthrie would have.

But just to get back to the politics for a moment though -if he'd just been meaning "look it hasn't worked out the way the people who built this country meant" it would have made much more sense to direct the song to Mr Washington or Mr Jefferson. They were in at the start of the Republic after all. In a sense, Lincoln just had to go round picking up the pieces.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:33 AM

Right, McGrath. And it all comes down to the chorus:

Mr.Lincoln, I wish you were here The Republic's changed a lot in a hundred years And I don't think it's working like you planned Oh Mr.Lincoln, we sure could use a hand

It IS Lincoln this was addressed to, it IS referring to changes made a hundred years ago (when did Junior write this) and not a hundred plus four score, to get back to the framing of the constitution and the time "the Republic" was established [events which did not have any personal involvement by Abraham Lincoln, who wasn't born for another thirty years}. Then comes the kicker: "I don't think it's working like you planned"...not Washington or Jefferson or Madison, "you planned" means Lincoln planned. The final line means "we wish you could come back and, realizing that it was wrong, undo what you did."

Although Lincoln didn't campaign as an abolitionist, he was a free stater: He wanted no more slave states in the union, and as soon as he was elected the slave states got the message: a few more free states and the anti-slavery North would have the votes to change the constitution to eliminate slavery (which even Imperial Russia had abolished a few years before). Slavery was the causus belli of the war.

--seed

P.S. As far as the quality of the song is concerned, it's a melange of weak rhymes and broken rhythms, and hasn't one memorable idea or image. Sorry, guys.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:31 AM

Bseed. Your comments are subjective: his style is conversational singing. Somewhat akin to the old cowboy style of thinking out loud to music. Campfire BS would be one way of putting it; sung to no-one in particular, just chatting to his horse, and anyone else who cares to listen. Weak rhymes and broken rhythms are the norm when you're tired after a long days drive, and standard fare for this improvised style. Although irritating to some, it is still a musical form of expression. That it does not inspire you, does'nt mean that it is worthless to all. For example, I do not like Jazz, but there are many Jazz pieces I really enjoy listening to. As far as image is concerned, perhaps that too is a matter for personal retrospection.Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:51 AM

Aye, Dave, I'll grant that Junior is a fine performer and can make even something like this sound profound--but the message can't stand without his performance, at least in your head. As a singer, Junior is much stronger than his daddy and has a much more exciting band behind him; as a songwriter he ain't even close.

--seed

Do you know his "A Country Boy Can Survive"? Similar kind of message--I was caught up in his performance and didn't think about the words much until the third or fourth time through: at best, adolescent wish fulfillment; at worst, vigilantism.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Marymac90
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 03:07 AM

Hello, again, everybody,

Wow, seed, you've articulated what I was feeling when I felt the song had militia/KKK connections. To wish for Lincoln to undo the Emancipation Proclamation is very scary.

Problems related to race, gender, and violence are foundational cultural issues of our time. The US was forged with racism, sexism, and violence as building blocks. These blocks still stand.

People still believe that Black people are inherently not as good as white people-not as smart, more criminal, etc. They justify these beliefs by consulting test scores, that measure how much poor urban minority children know of what's taught about European culture in private and suburban schools.

They also consult court and prison statistics, which are based on how many alleged criminals are arrested by majority white police forces all over this country. Many black neighborhoods became high-crime neighborhoods because in earlier eras, it was considered to be the "proper" or "acceptable" place for many criminal ventures. Allowing drugs, prostitution, numbers, etc, in black neighborhoods, and directing whites who sought these things to the black neighborhoods, kept white neighborhoods "safe".

Using these faulty measuring sticks gives people very unsound ideas to base their beliefs on. They wind up believing that the group with the history of the most unjust, inhumane, violent behavior: the history of kidnapping people, taking them thousands of miles from their homes, holding and using the power of life, death, maiming, rape, etc, over them, denying them the right to speak their languages, maintain their religious and cultural traditions, form families and raise their children to adulthood, deny them the right to learn to read and write, etc, etc, etc, is now believed to be the victim of the group it has so horribly oppressed. Meanwhile the education, justice, and economic systems are set up to perpetuate INequalities.

You cannot just look at certain incidences and experiences without looking at the history of how things came to be set up the way they are. These problems have complex historic causes, and short sighted solutions like longer jail terms and more executions do not solve any of them. People of good will must look at how we can begin to level the playing field, giving genuinly equal opportunities to all. We must seek other solutions besides execution and imprisonment, which do nothing to heal our nation, any more than the whip, the chain, and the lynch rope did.

Trusting that you are indeed people of good will,

I remain thoughtfully yours,

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 08:02 AM

Mary, Have I, or anyone else here on this thread, given you any cause to believe we are anything other than people of goodwill? Personally, I try to post political commentary on political forums, and avoid them here. As I pointed out previously; I fail to see the racism expressed either covertly or overtly in the lyrics of this song. I also can appreciate the dismay displayed by the originator of this thread, when so many people chose to make it an issue. But then I do not follow country music politics in depth, I just enjoy some of the songs. Without in depth knowledge of the performers political preferences, it is difficult to understand your interpretation of the lyrics. I do not know the racial makeup of people on this site, and to me it is irrelevant. I enjoy some Wagner, but I assure you I am not a Nazi, quite the reverse in fact. As for your comments above; history is replete with examples of violence, racial oppression, slavery, and genocide in every race and country. Were the song obviously racist, I would not give it a second listen. yours,(proud of his hometowns support of Lincoln) Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 08:48 AM

My, my, my... Things seem to be humming along on this tread, arent they?
I do have to point out one thing to our Cherokee brother, who says the way to stop going to jail is to stop breaking the law. Well, on its face, that seems to be a plan, however, In the US today, the majority of the million in jail - the largest percent of a society in jail, in history - are there for drug related offences. The statistical evidence is that - for the most part, when a white middle class kid uses drugs it is a medical problem, when a Black or Hispanic kid uses drugs, he or she is jailed. Now we can all jump in with examples, however statisticaly it is provable, and there is a class eliment in that the poor - sub working class white kid is going to jail as well.
I have the honnor to judge in an Algonquin court. An Iroquois chief, I know is fond of saying, for the answer, get back to the people. Go back to whatever of your elders are rooted in their cherokee traditions, brother. You will find that sweat lodges and being brought into the center of your community works better than jail for Cherokees. What will work for the more complicated world of non Native America is a huge topic for an essay, however, it seems apartent that jails and exicution chambers dont work very well to keep down the crime rate.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 09:07 AM

Little bit of threadcreep, here:

For an interesting and sometimes heated debate on PC, please see this thread.

We all came to the conclusion that the term has been co-opted and decided ethically conscious better described what we really meant. I just recently had an op/ed piece published on the new term.

Also, Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center is working on changing how we refer to one another based on ethnic background. Instead of African American, he says American of African descent and likewise for others. The NYTimes refused to print an editorial of his which proposed this change in our language.

katlughing

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 09:27 AM

I agree to a point:

Drug laws ARE racist...also they've been proved over the last 60 odd years to have caused MANY more problems than they have fixed. Unfortunately, white Christians seem to feel that legislating (their) morality is acceptable. Time has proven this idea to be wrong, but our government/"the powers that be" NEVER admits that a mistake was made by them. And so many Americans NEVER question authority...an inherently American right.

Being a strong believer in the Libertarian philosophy, I'm ABSOLUTELY against "victim-less crime" laws. We DO have the right to decide what is right for us, individually!...Although, our Government prefers we not exercise these rights.

On the other hand, if you know something you do is gonna get you incarcerated, and you know that you'll not get a fair trial, then don't do it...or don't get caught.

Yes, the "old ways" do work...if we are allowed to utilize them.

Ultimately, we are the master of our own ships.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 03:01 PM

Dave and Terry, and Mbo, I've read your posts to this and other threads and I am very sure that all of you are people of good will, that your hearts are in the right place. As for this song and as for Junior himself I remain unconvinced. I think his directing this to Lincoln serves for him two purposes: first, setting up the audience to believe that he is concerned with human rights, and second, subtly suggesting that the problems with the courts' releasing of violent criminals grows out of an action of President Lincoln, and the action that all people automatically associate with Lincoln is freeing the slaves. There is no other way that Lincoln is relevant to the concerns expressed in the song, which I find not only not particularly good but particularly dishonest.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 02:45 PM

I've got a problem with labels like African American or American of African decent.

I had a friend who was puzzled how to fill in a census type question for her family. She was Irish on both sides. Her husband was Indian on one side, Portuguese and a bit Italian on the other, and he'd been born in Gibraltar. What was the right label for her children.

So if your ancestry includes slaves from Africa, slacveowners from England, and immigrants from Ireland and Russia how is a label like African American or American of African descent relevant?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 04:52 PM

I always put MIXED RACE, for are we not all that?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Blackcat2
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 05:42 PM

Let me see.

The thread began with a fan of an artist sharing something the help others understand what he believes.

Several people disagreed with him, several others agreed with him.

Several people decided to discuss politics and social issues - points and emotions on both sides of each issue were raised.

History was brought up (IMHO) some real and some more imagined and/or colored by points of view. The history touched on was ancient, old, recent and current.

No one so far, as flamed anyone (that I noticed)

I could be wrong, but it seems that the Mudcat is going along pretty well. . .

By the way, I always put down Pacific Islander or in the old days Eskimo instead of what I am, just because there ain't enough of them wonderful people in the world!

pax yall

Blackcat2

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 06:38 PM

I have a very dear freind from Ghana who is very amused by the term "African-American"...he's called himself an "American" ever since he and his wife and kids became such.

He's even more amused by blacks who wish to go back to "The Motherland"...it seems he and his wife spent 15 years saving up enough to "leave the poverty and ignorance of Africa" (his words), and often says he wishes his ancestors had ran slower when the other tribes were out catching slaves...he's not particularily "PC", I'm afraid!...

For that matter, I'd have to refer to myself as a Cherokee-Scot-Irish-Welsh-French-Cantonese-English(in order of quantity)-American...I guess "mutt" might be easier...or just "American"...of Texas ancestry!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Mbo
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 08:46 PM

You know Dave Matthews is African-American.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 11:20 AM

Having worked in Detroit, and Chicago (amongst others) where I was the only coloured person in the cargo hold, (The white sheep of the family?) and survived. Some of the best officers and seamen I have worked with (one from Ghana) are black; and have been counted amongst my friends. The racist thing is not an issue with me. You simply do "non gratum annus rodentum" if the hand that saves you from drowning is black or white. Yours, (finished on this thread) Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Marymac90
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 01:33 PM

Dear Folks,

I think it is perfectly fine if people want to be identified as African-American or American of African descent. First of all, people should be allowed to have the right to self-determination: to define themselves as they see fit. Secondly, I think it's important when you are part of a group that is pretty instantly recognizable, (in most cases,) and there is a lot of racism and prejudice that goes along with your identification as a member of that group. In US history, there were always derogatory names that went with the identity of being of African descent. People need to be able to define themselves as they see fit. If they want to be called African-Americans, or choose to call themselves "Niggaz", Let them define themselves.

People want to define themselves in a way that makes them feel proud, and feel like they are indeed a part of the culture they came from. The love, warmth, and acceptance people have experienced in their homes and neighborhoods is very different from being out in the world where they have to deal with people who may hate or resent them based on their ethnicity. A teacher of mine grew up in the South during segregation. She knew she couldn't go to a "white" lunch counter there. She once ate at an "integrated" lunch counter in Chicago, and saw the waitress BREAK the dishes she had eaten off of! Attitudes don't change, simply because laws do.

Dave, I think you may have put a typo into your entry-were you the only worker of European descent in the cargo holds in Detroit and Chicago? You note that you were well accepted by the other workers. I have often worked as a social worker in similiar situations. I have found my co-workers and clients were usually very accepting of me. My late sweetheart's family was very accepting of me, and continued to invite me to family gatherings after he had died. My family of origin would clearly not have accepted him, even if we had married-most likely my father would have disowned me!

I do trust that Dave, Mbo, et al ARE indeed people of good will, who don't want to see the racist aspects of society perpetuated. And I think our society has done a lot to "clean up its act" on the things that are very outwardly obvious. However, there are a lot of things that are NOT so outwardly obvious, that are promoted as being good for "Law and Order" or good for "the taxpayers". The undercurrent of many of these things is racist, but it is not clearly identifiable as such on the surface.

That, I think, is the case re: the song that this thread started with. I think the idea of telling Mr. Lincoln that things didn't turn out the way they should've, is a way of saying that Lincoln freeing the slaves resulted in our having high crime rates, and insufficient punishment for criminals.

Of course, how these things are related is not directly stated-IT'S UNDERSTOOD by all those who believe that race and criminality are directly related! It's like a code, which we folkies can easily understand if we're talking about songs of the underground railroad. We know slaves needed a code to communicate about escape attempts, the desire for freedom, etc. THIS code is saying that our problems with crime began with the Emancipation Proclamation, and have continued with court decisions granting Miranda and other rights to the accused. However, since it doesn't come right out and say so, people who don't believe that race and criminality are directly related can listen to this song without realizing that it is something more than just a complaint that we're too lax on criminals, and praise for "the good old days".

We have to learn to listen CRITICALLY, the same as we have to read critically, whether it's the Mudcat, or the newspaper, or the history books. Presenting things in a different light may give a reader a completely different take on them. We need to look beneath the obvious, to see what underlies the messages we absorb everyday, from ALL the media.

I thank the poster above who noted that we have been having a perfectly civil discussion about something we have a difference of opinion on. I hope the others who've been discussing this with me also feel the same. I've meant no disrespect to anyone, but I know I kinda get a little carried away with issues I feel passionatly about, and this is one.

My best wishes to all,

Mary McCaffrey

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 02:12 PM

The point I was making is that we all of us have lots of ancestors, and they don't all necessarily come from the same part of the world.

In fact they almost certainly don't all come from the same part of the world if you go back more than a couple of generations. It's probably true that most people in England have ancestors from Africa, dating back to the 18th century.

I'm not in any way suggesting that people shouldn't take pride in their ancestors who came from Africa, just pointing out that the label "American of African descent" includes large numbers of people who aren't black, and that there are lots of black people in the United States who aren't in fact Americans of African descent.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 05:31 PM

Blackcat2, thanks for pointing out how well this thread demonstrates the way Mudcat should--and almost always does--work. We've had a serious, often contentious, discussion here, conducted without anger or disrespect.

By the way, I invariably respond "Human" when asked my race...

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 05:58 PM

I give up. I'm going to go blow my brains out with crumpets now.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 06:14 PM

Do crumpets mean the same thing in America as they do in Engkland?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 07:37 PM

At the risk of massive flames...

I'm still trying to understand how the song "Mr. Lincoln" was interpretted as being "racist"...seems to me that possibly someone's trying to put forth THEIR own attitude/agenda...and stretching the concept at that!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 07:53 PM

Well, Terry, I think BSeed explained where he saw it as racist pretty well.

You might not agree with it. But I suggest you go back and read his posts and identify where the disagrement lies.

And I hope we won't get any flaming or challenges to flaiming.There's only been one post on this thread that dipped its toes into that I think, and sensisbly noone reacted to it.

There shouldn't be any serious fightig here anyway - it's just a disagreement as to whether a particular somng is expressing racist attitudes, that's all.

Now if it were matter of people saying that racism was ok by them it might be a different matter, but you aren't, and I don't think anyone else is here either.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 07:56 PM

McGrath, it's a reference to Charles Dickens book "The Pickwick Papers."

--Mbo