Lyr Add: Mr. Lincoln (Hank Williams Jr.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 15 Jan 00 - 11:06 AM

OK, Mr. Seed, etc. ....just which line (or lines) seemed "racist" to you? The song's author, appears to me to be lamenting that there are criminals roaming unfettered...but at no time does he mention the criminal's racial identity...

I'm assuming that you got far enough in high school to have learned that Lincoln did a great deal more in his time in office than merely freeing the slaves, yet this is all you can presumably come up with in your "interpretation" of this song's "meaning".

May I respectfully suggest a trip to your local library? Perhaps you might start in the section dealing with American History...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 00 - 12:52 PM

One of the thing that impresses me most of the time about the Mudcat is the extent to which, when a disagreement arises, people try to understand what the other person is saying, and explore where the differences are, without being sarcastic and trailing their coat and trying to pick a fight.

If we can succeed in doing that when we are talking about the Irish troubles, and in spite of everything, most of the time we do, than I think we owe it to each other when we are talking about whether a song is racist or whether a singer is racist.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Mbo
Date: 15 Jan 00 - 02:11 PM

Well, I'm back. Here's all I want to say. My points are:

1.) The World Book Encyclopedia describes Lincoln as being a historical figure that is even higher in American minds that George Washington. It also says that he is perhaps the greatest figure in American history. So why not address the song to him instead of Washington or Jefferson (who was a slave owning hypocrit)? They laid the foundation, Lincoln built upon in. Who's more important, the guy who built the guitar, or the guy who shows us the wonderful things we can do with it?

2.) Lincoln did more for us than free the slaves. He stressed the point of democracy, and a country and government that works for it's people. This is Hank's reason for addressing the current laws government in America.

3.) He also led us through the most violent crisis in American history, the Civil War--brother against brother--fighting and killing for freedom, economic reasons, reasons of slavery. Both sides, Confederate and Union were both doing the obligatory fighting and killing because they believed in a strong cause. Causes that almost verify the deaths. Today people are fighting and killing over skin color, the jackets or sneakers someone wears, or even for no reason at all. We have gone from high causes, whether just or flawed, to killing in the streets for nothing. We have no goals or causes. Killing has become like a game--a "rush" to aspire towards.

4.) Licoln led us through all this--with compassion for both sides. He believed in "Malice towards none, and charity for all." Sound familiar? We have become a country delighting in an overwhelming cynicism, with petty squabbling and sueing over the smallest things like teachers putting tape on kids mouths to make them be quiet (I had it done to me as a kid--I didn't sue) or when some restaurant's coffee is too hot. We don't we trust and believe and care for each other anymore?

5.) Lincoln himself was the first president who was the victim of a violent crime. He wasn't killed when visiting the army camps or battlefield, but when having a small well-earned piece of entertainment--he was killed by a man who did not care about people--one of those who believe that killing works better than trying non-violent ways to change what you think is wrong. Lincoln was killed because he was perceived as the leader of those who destroyed the Confederacy. Some today are killed for just being there, or for the 15 dollars in their pocket. I think that would touch a nerve if Lincoln did know what is happening today. Most importantly, Lincoln was killed--taken away--when the country would have most needed him, to heal the wounds of a nation torn in two. "I don't think it's worked out like you planned, Mr. Lincoln we sure could use a hand" is not a criticism of Lincoln's policies--it's a call for him to come back amd reinstate the vision he had for this country--that he did not get to finish. Instead of a country torn in two, now we have a nation torn in a million little pieces with religions, races, political & militia groups, sexual orientations, and cultures all against each other. Mr.Lincoln's vision of a healed nation has not worked out like he planned, so we need him to come back and heal us--to finish the work that he was so unmercilessly pulled away from.

4.) I have been listening to Hank Williams Jr.'s music for a LONG time. I can assure you, he is not a racist. His music, including this one, show no racist ideals. Does the song oversimplify the issues? Yes, but even when oversimplified, it would be enough to shock Abe Lincoln. And yes, lots of his songs are about drinking and carousing and having a good time. So are a lot of British Isles & Celtic music. He's not hurting anyone. I don't agree with this supposed "code" that songwriters write in that some people can decipher. All is up to your own personal philosophy. For instance, I think "The Bonny Lighthorseman" is mean, and as someone of Italian ancestry, I find songs like "That's Amore" and "The Tarantella" and crude versions of "O' Sole Mio" insulting. I still have unresolved issues about Eric Bogel's "No Man's Land" Other people may not. I also don't like to criticise other's songwriting methods. If someone wants to write a song from a newspaper and radio, go ahead a let 'em! "The Blue Clicky Thing" was written from a thread on an internet folk music discussion forum--how non-traditional is that? I say IT'S ALL GOOD, BABY!!

The defense rests, your honor. Think what you will. Now where are those so wery wholesome an' fillin' for the price crumpets.

--Mbo (BTW Dave, this was the e-mail I was going to send to you, but got eaten. I decided to post it to the thread in mine and Hank's defense in this musical Thermopylae.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 07:10 AM

Now that is the way discussions should be carried out. Thanks Mbo.

Whether you're right about what was in Hank Junior's mind with this song or not, clearly it's what's in your mind when you're listening to it or singing it. Perhaps you might try sticking some lines in that make it clearer. I've done that myself, and I think it's a legitimate part of the folk process.

That crack I made about: <>"I read this in the paper...I heard this on the news." And he then he goes on to write an editorial in verse about it. I don't think that's how good songs work.

I didn't mean there's anything wrong with making a song fromn something you get that way. Woody Guthruie did it all the time, and it's no different from making the song from what someone has told you face to face.

What I meant was that the song wasn't directly about what happened, it was about his feelings about what happened, so it was second-hand. But thinking it over, that's no wholly fair - there've been good songs about how some media event affects a singer. I think this one could have done with a bit more working over.It's a matter of personal taste.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 05:26 PM

Embo, do you have the copyright date for the song? If it was written near the centennial of Lincoln's death, given the context of Southern attitudes of the time I think that interpretation of a Mississippi good-old-boy's mental processes is a bit of a stretch. I know that Junior was associated with Waylon (not the heron) and Willie and Kris in his musical esthetic and his avoidance of hairspray and sequins, but was he enough of an outlaw to have rejected the states-rights (read anti-civil rights) politics of his home region?

And whatever his intentions in writing the song, poetically, it's still representative of the shallow end of his father's gene pool.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 05:45 PM

The copyright of the song is 1984. And Hank Williams Jr. is from Alabama (born in Shreveport, La.) not Mississippi. I'm also sure that the "anti-civil rights racist Hank" you perceive would be close friends with Little Richard, Ray Charles, Lionel Richie, and various bluesmen. Hanks sings a lotta blues.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 03:21 AM

I don't think we're going to agree on this one, Embo--and I don't want it to continue to stir harsh feelings between us--I have enjoyed too many of your other appearances in the 'Cat. I'm sorry I brought it up.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: Mbo
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 10:53 AM

Stalemate accepted, Seed. Next time I'll post Hank's "Montana Cafe." Less contention, no politics, they've got steak and pie, and the special is peace of mind.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: GUEST,Dustin
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 09:02 PM

you all are a bunch of backwoods buwanna's. i think hank's song does has many truths, but who cares. its a pointless song with no solutions or anything. if hank thinks our country is so backwords then run for office. the ideas presented in this song are very simple minded, and i believe the vast majority of you need to start looking outside of the box. alot of dumb ass shit goes on in this country every day, but everything has a reason. i hope some day people will stop complaining and do something about it then. change starts with you, and by saying you i mean you.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 05:15 PM

I was going through a book about Midwest (USA) settlement once and in a chapter on an Indian rebellion that had been put down, almost as a side note it mentioned that after it was put down, most of the captured men were sentenced to death. Since the lands involved were not yet states but US territory, all those sentenced were reviewed by the chief of state, i.e. the President. Lincoln went over them one by one and commuted all but those few where hard evidence indicated they had personally led and killed.

This was in an era and in a place where the life of an Indian caught fighting Americans would not be worth very much.

What impressed me was that here he is, leading the North in the Civil War, an Indian rising had to have been a sideshow to the main event, but his regard for human life was such that he personally reviewed each case and showed mercy where it was at all possible.

I leave it to you to figure if Hank Williams chose a suitable target.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Mr.Lincoln
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 05:22 PM

Here is a link to an on-line story to which I was referring.

Lincoln's Agonizing Decision