THREADIQUETTE

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 08:36 AM

Just a small point - but I remember a while back I was posting anonymously by accident - my label had just disappeared & it was probably a while before I noticed. So some anons might not realise they are. I think that's when I started signing as well - just in case it happens again.

Kris

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:18 AM

Neil,

Kindred sprits indeed!!! "It's My Own Fault" is my favourite live electric blues tune ever. The other one I love on that album is "Meantown Blues."

Good luck with the rhythm part.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:23 AM

Sorry, but unless you can suggest why the initial remark made in that thread wasn't idiotic, deliberately antagonizing, as well as attempting to insinuate my personal guilt for a horrific act to someone I revere, it seems to me to be a fair assessment, even restrained under the circumstances. Courtesy has its limits, otherwise it is meaningless: as they say in Arab countries: I will invite a stranger into my house, but if they piss on my carpet, they are no longer my guest.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:27 AM

So could you take this towel and the Resolve and.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:58 AM

Peter T, One of the problems with this medium is that we don't know who our readers are. Obviously the poster who offended you, didn't know that you spend your whole life trying to make this world a fit place to live in. He just assumed that no one cared and blamed everyone. That's why he got so much flack here, where people 'do' care. In the real world his comments (even though they were expressed somewhat childishly) could be construed as a necessary nudge to get people to wake up and take notice.

Bert.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:37 AM

Bert, I love ya'...but I disagree. Even for me (in the real world) there is a fine line between activist and zealot. The surest way to piss me and a lot of others, possibly including Peter, is to come on as a zealot and tell me in no uncertain terms what I MUST do. That's complete nonsense, especially from one who doesn't know the audience they're speaking to...and the poster didn't. I appreciate your point Bert, but perhaps the poster's point could have been made with feeling and tact, even in question form maybe. But to immediately lecture me without any knowledge?

I react the same way out here in the real world. A few years ago, a 20ish and newly trained therapist had the first session with one of my foster kids. We had lived with her 24/7 and Karen and I were very experienced in the type of problems she was having. Without consulting us and what we had been doing to that point, without any real knowledge of the case, and with the idolatry and passion born of youth, said to me, "I don't think you understand the dynamic of what is happening here." Ask me if I went off on her?

I think this thread has served good purpose and I too would apologize to those which I have inadvertently offended, even in jest. But I will not apologize to that poster, nor will I apologize for reactions that I would carry out face to face. Love you all, but I too have some triggers and I try to control them. Believe me, I have pushed the "Clear Entries" button more than occasionally. I'll try to watch myself, but if you expect less than honesty, you'll be disappointed.

Spaw

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: JedMarum
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:44 AM

I agree with Peter T that the issue re: George Harrison justifiably raised the ire of many (including me). I think Peter T's comments attacking the statement were appropriate. I think the comments in that thread attacking the person making the statement were not (I don't recall if Peter T's comments were personal).

Sometimes it is difficult not to respond personally, when people make a deliberately provocative statement - but there should be rules about fighting. Attack the comment, attack the behaviour - do not attack the person.
There is a world of difference to the addressee when he/she hears "You are an idiot," as compared to hearing "You are acting like an idiot." Attack the behaviour, not the actor.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 11:45 AM

Well said 'Spaw. I guess that guy just didn't push any buttons for me. I thought the posting was kinda silly but not worth responding to. I certainly appreciate your point of view and I CAN see how both you and Peter T would be offended by it.

Keep being honest guy.
Bert.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:07 PM

Good point liam....true, but very difficult at times. But you are right. And Bert, glad you understand

You're both morons.......(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:12 PM

Thank you, Bert, a reasonable starting point for a discussion at last, as opposed to warm or cold fudge. This has nothing to do specifically with the earlier thread, about which I have said all I intend to say.

But the question of the rhetorical use of collective blame is very important, and very delicate. I think imputing collective blame to people is a very dangerous practice -- all men are not guilty of rape; all English and Irish citizens are not guilty of what happened in Northern Ireland, and therefore are acceptable targets for bombing; you are not guilty of the death of thousands of 3rd world children each week simply because they are dying of malnutrition and easily preventable diseases and you are in a developed country and have done nothing about this issue (I mean this as an example, you may be a foster parent for all I know). This kind of tactic is not a "necessary nudge": it misrepresents by a kind of cheap sociology -- if you do nothing, you are part of the power structure which is carrying out "structural violence" on your behalf -- the ways in which we are in fact absolutely responsible for certain things, relatively responsible for others, and constrained by others from responding. If we cannot make some of these distinctions, then we are guilty of everything or innocent of everything, and language becomes meaningless; and when language becomes meaningless, we lose our best tool for change. The result is usually an unholy mess ruled by screamers. Smearing guilt all over people as a tactic is now widespread: and the result, in my experience, is that people grow to resent it, and turn their backs on their real responsibilities. It is not a "necessary nudge" in my book.
yours, Peter T.
(P.S. You can come and piss on my carpet anytime.)

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:16 PM

It's odd we have another thread going on about people who play music without first making an attempt to listen and figure out how things work. We have had some posters who have done that as well. It works best when they try to understand a bit about the forum before they jump in. If that doesn't happen, things can still work out if we just keep talking.

I'm quite sure I've said some idiotic things here, but no one's called me an idiot. (yet) Thank you.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:22 PM

Okay... You're an idiot.

Just wanted to get that out of the way for you. Always happy to oblige.

I'll be mopping up the carpet now............

Spaw

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:28 PM

"You're an idiot Jeri" - There, now do you feel better ;-) Just joking of course, but I thought I'd get that in before Old Spaw did. - I love you really.

Peter T. Ah yes, good points, I guess I was being too general there, as well.

Bert.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:31 PM

Bummer - he beat me too it after all. It only takes someone else to say it and it becomes true.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:33 PM

Ya blew it Bert...but its reassuring to Jeri I'm sure to have a "second" on the thought.

Actually, to quote an old favorite routine,

"I think we're all Bozos on this bus!"

Spaw

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Mbo
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:42 PM

"We're not weirdos...we're Mudcatters!"
--Quoted by Me! :{>

--Mbo

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:43 PM

You like me...you really like me!!! (sniff, sniff)

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: JamesJim
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:48 PM

I am also new to the Mudcat, but I am simply overwhelmed with all the nice people who post and all the knowledge out there. I'd like to have you all as personal friends. I hardly let a day go by that I don't access Mudcat - I'm always excited to read/see new threads. This whole thing reminds me of the old story about the sparrow who was freezing to death (I paraphrase), when a cow walked by and crapped on him. He was saved by the warmth. Sometimes a little s..t in your life can be good. I read the idiotic threads and those who are a little less than civil. It reminds me of every day life and gives me hope that those who are sometimes a little less than civil can learn from those of us who are not. Regards to all! Jim

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:48 PM

It is a deep, deep question. I think, off the top of my head that -- Spiritually I am responsible for all beings, politically for as much as I can handle working with others, practically for as many as I can respond to without betraying my or their needs, directly for those whom I can care for most powerfully, and all sorts of other distinctions. Taking on responsibilities, assessing where one fits, and sometimes just going with your feelings without logic -- this is what people like Catspaw, Big Mick, and other people here do every day: wrestling with how much they can commit and whether they are getting anywhere. Look at Mick's response to his Birthday thread. Universal guilt in a situation like that is totally useless. I feel passionately about this because my best students are burdened with universal guilt, and get locked into despair.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: bbelle
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 03:09 PM

I will accept my "your an idiot"'s face-to-fact this weekend at annap's, thank you very much. But be mindful ... you might be sharing the couch with me ... shalom ... moonchild

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 03:25 PM

I agree wiht you, PeterT. And I don't thnk your "idiot" was out of line.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:06 PM

Whether PeterT was right to calling somebody an idiot or not is debatable. Personally, I prefer to try to avoid name calling and in that instance in may have been better to have referred to the comments as being idiotic.

Having said that, we all have subjects that we feel strongly about and are entitled to our own opinions and if PeterT feels that the poster is an idiot, I see no harm in him expressing that.

I do feel that people are over reacting to a few posts and that overall, Mudcat is a very friendly place (compare it to some newsgroups). We are only human and a number of us will react harshly on occasions but I think that this place would become very sterile if we all had to ensure that every post we made could not conceivably offend anyone.

In an ideal world, there would be no dissagreements but we live in the real world where these things happen and what is more important to me is that these arguments blow over quickly and that there are no grudges held.

I have seen anonymous posters mentioned in this thread and mention of harshly worded posts but there are other matters that I have seen in Mudcat that I consider to be far worse. I have seen the deliberate goading and repeated personal attacks on a poster and recently saw a post that I suspect was a troll.

Jon

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: JedMarum
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:13 PM

sharing the couch? hmmmm, maybe I need to make these gatherings, as well! :-)

Peter I certainly agree with your point about the collective guilt crap ... and in fact stated so in response to that thread. But I softened my words because the attacks on Gern had been personally directed. I spite of the fact that the originating statement made my blood boil, I felt the need to rebut the behaviour, and soothe the behavor (is that a word - or did I make up a new one, again)!

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: bbelle
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:37 PM

Well, I understand the couch is about 8 feet long and I'm 5 feet long, so unless you're 7 feet long, it's probably not a very exciting prospected. Well, my friends, this thread has probably run it's course, since we're dipping into intense, good-natured threadcreep. BTW ... for a while I wasn't sure what "threadcreep" meant. Duh! Now I understand why and how it happens and it really is kind of fun and let's the steam out a bit (as opposed to letting my waistband out a bit) ... moonchild

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:09 PM

Moonchild, annap has informed me that I get the other half of the couch. You'll be able to able to recognise me by the fact I'll be wearing a top-not, and plaid with polka dots. I also may be carrying a banjo.

Who was it who said "No one can call themselves an idiot. It is a name that is given to you, not one you give to yourself?"

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:22 PM

It's interesting to me that the two Catters in the middle of the (easily avoided) public firestorm of a few days ago, Kat and Joe, have been, during the year I've been here two of the first to offer help and assistance. (whether solicited or not) Since Peter T.'s name has come up several times here for his "idiot" comment, I think it's fair to say that he is another who constantly offers his services when needed. I've gotten to know all three well enough to know where their hearts are...and believe me they're in the right place.

That doesn't change the fact that Joe's method of dealing with his frustration at what he felt was Kat's manipulation of Mudcat was BRUTAL. I'm sure he feels that he was being "brutally honest", but had that been aimed at me I'd have been really hurt.

Having said that, I think making a clearly edited private e-mail of his, public, was inexcusable (no matter what the rationalization was) and starting a thread dealing with EXACTLY what was at the heart of their disagreement-"compulsive thread posting" (knowing full well, that anyone who got involved would be literally forced to take sides)was deliberately devisive.

Peter's calling someone an "idiot" might have carried more weight if Gern had stuck around and argued his point, but from the way both posts were written, my guess is that Gern would have been out of his/her league, even if Peter had used milder terms. Peter me Lad, when you choose, you can use the english language like a rapier!

Recently I asked to be removed from a private Mudcatters' e-mail list. I have respect and admiration for every person on that list, but I will not be part of one "group" who feels collectively that they're "in the right"...meaning others (collectively) must be wrong. For all I know, I've lost friends, through that action, but I think carefully before I sign my name to something (still a computer dork, so I wouldn't know how to be anon. even if I was scared to take the heat) and I try to be true to my beliefs.

Like Catspaw and others, I've got buttons that can be pushed, but the only button that got pushed this time was the one that said "stop..don't take sides"

Rick (still firmly pro B.S. and pro music..but anti-power struggles)

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:32 PM

Yeah, but Rick licks guitars when no one is watching.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:38 PM

I think he goes after banjos too. Does that make him "bilingual?"

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:47 PM

And now he's starting on fiddle too, (how many would he have to lick to be cunilingual?) Sorry, sorry for the really terrible joke. Spaw hasn't made it yet.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:49 PM

God, I never thought of that. Thanks, Jeri, it was time he was outed as the degenerate he really is.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:53 PM

....come join me Soph. You get used to the heat, but avoid the flamier bits. Not a bad place overall, just watch out you don't piss-off the horned guy in the red suit with the pitchfork. I think analinguistic is a bit more than cunnilinguistic isn't it?

Well that about wraps this one up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:55 PM

Wouldn't take this from a serious topic into the realm of jokes for anything, but thanks to Jeri's patience and kindness, I am INDEED learning the fiddle (squawks and all). I played very poorly a number of years ago and am trying to do it right this time. I practice an hour and a half every day.(Now I even miss "Yes Minister") My goal is to go public in 3 months. Oops, 2 and a half months. Thanks again Jeri.

Rick

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 09:53 PM

Once more: the Compulsive Thread Posting thread was obviously meant to be a joke and in no way was meant to be deliberatley divisive. I am sorry that it was misinterpreted it and that it was brought up in this thread. Having said that, I personally do no think anything justifies the kind of attack slung at me last week. Can we please let it rest now? Thank you,

kat with a small "k" out of respect for the other "Kat" who was here before me when I logged on as katlaughing.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 09:15 AM

"Least said, soonest mended" as My Dad says.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: annamill
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:44 PM

Who hurt our Kat?? Let me at them. This is what I get for staying away so much!

L.,A.

Subject: RE: THREADIQUETTE
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 12:59 PM

Annap, please, I will answer your question by private message. Please, phoaks, let's not hash this out again in a thread. Thank you,

kat