Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 08:37 AM

Steve Gardham

Maybe somebody from Mudcat Caffe seen this song in full somewhere, so I can sing it in full! So if anyone can help, please, please do it.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 07:36 AM

The couplet looks like the start of some bawdy ballad, but the refrain looks like something from an 18th century broadside. Either way, hardly chanty material.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 09 Mar 21 - 03:43 AM

070 - Sacramento (Version from German barque Gustav)

This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
A Rabelaisian German version that we sang aboard the four-masted barque Gustav. So unfortunate is that Stan Hugill did not give us more stanzas and it is the only English translation of the German origin, but refrain parts are really rare and beautiful.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 112).



Sacramento (Version from German barque Gustav)


Oh, a monk one day from his monastery went,
   - To me fal-la, to me fal-la!
His head all shaven and his gown all rent,
   - To me fal-lal, lal-lal, la!

   - Blow, boys, blow for Californio,
   - There is plenty of gold, so I am told,
   - On the banks of Sacramento.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 10:01 PM

Sorry for my confusion!: I see now that it was Patterson's "hauling" one that Hugill gave. I thought, from what Shogun was saying, that Hugill gave the capstan one. I misread / misinterpreted.

"If Stan Hugill gave this song as another version of "Sacramento", the usual capstan shanty, why he didn't provide the first matched type example? And he gave another "Hauling one instead. "

Because the strange hauling version was precisely what was notable / weird in Patterson, which Hugill wanted to note. He had already given capstan versions, and he wanted, for the record, to also note that it was possible there had also been a hauling version, based on Patterson. Though as Lighter notes, he expressed skepticism, too. (My preference would have been he just ignored it since it is so suspect. I mean, I would certainly note it in a discussion, but in a published work I would not include it... these days, reviewers/editirs would probably compel me to be more concise and leave out such tangential things, or I'd just put a footnote: "It's possible there was a hauling version, based on one source, but the issue with this source is XYZ.")

Also adding here: Colcord cites Patterson in her bibliography. So I, for one, am convinced that Colcord took the "cocktail flows" line from Patterson.

Maybe if I'm free later I'll try to find where else I've seen the "cocktail" line...

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 09:38 PM

I don't have the inclination to go on a hunt to solve the mystery of Patterson, and I hope people will forgive that, as a disclaimer. My bias is that I think Patterson is not a helpful source for documenting the history of chanties. While I was certainly familiar with the Patterson source, I believe I excluded it from my _Boxing the Compass_ because I thought it was too tangential to the story of writing about chanties.

Having made that disclaimer, I *have* noticed that Patterson's random (IMO) verse about "where the cocktail flows" turns up in writing elsewhere. Colcord is one place, but I know there is another. Because, again in my opinion, this is a random (extemporized) sounding verse, which I would doubt had currency with many singers, I suspect there were some shenanigans going on, of writers copying from other publications. "Who copied whom?" is not the question I'm inclined to research (there are bigger fish to fry). But I mention it in reaction to what Lighter said about verses not being good. And to say: I'm less inclined to speculate that Patterson made up verses and more inclined to believe he copied them from print sources. I find it very hard to believe, in light of all other data about chanties, that Patterson's "hauling chanty" was something that was sung, but all I can speculate as an alternative is that he read somewhere that "Sacramento" could also be a hauling chanty and he tried to imagine how that might be. (Why it wouldn't just be the usual song minus the grand chorus is puzzling.) At least Hugill knew not to put Patterson's "hauling" version in his book!

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 04:44 PM

In one place Hugill actually expressed skepticism of Patterson's versions, even though he quoted them.

I've no doubt at all that Patterson, who did spend some time on shipboard, randomly "improved" some of his texts, though some of the lyrics are senseless enough to be real, if extemporized.

Why he did so, I don't know, since the extra choruses aren't even interesting! (Davis did a much better job of prettifying!)

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 04:02 PM

Gibb Sahib

Yes, I had more issues with this shanty. The first issue was, is that Stan Hugill gives a description of this song and the first verse, but he seems to treat this shanty for capstan. So I did found the original book, and... My very eyes were even bigger when I discovered not one only two, songs one described as: "this song as 'Capstan.'", and another labeled: "The same: as a hauling chanty'". My question is:
If Stan Hugill gave this song as another version of "Sacramento", the usual capstan shanty, why he didn't provide the first matched type example? And he gave another "Hauling one instead.

About the type of hauling, well I did approach the other way round, probably will be harder if I knew Patterson was a poet. So my approach was: here shanty, you figure out how it works, and in first thought was must be halyard. So option, in this case, was, one pulse a chorus line, or one in first and two in second, and this option with tweaked of accent was work, and kinda match intuitively for me. The funny story I called to my mentor and friend Simon Spalding, and in the first thought, He has exact same intuition :)

What I also discover in Stan Hugill's book, he sometimes gives not exact titles of reference books, so sometimes it complicates things for me.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 10:59 PM

Shogun,

That seems like a very unlikely halyard song, ha! Good job trying to figure something out! I have no idea how I would know to work (haul) with that. It's so complicated. My thinking is: 99 or so percent of "halyard" chanties have the same form, so why would we have these kind of outliers? The other 1% are "short drag" or "hand over hand" form used at halyards, or else, theoretically, the regular halyard form yet with only 1 (rather than 2) pulls per chorus.

I figured Patterson was just a poet, who was including some chanty texts in his anthology of sea-themed poetry. It doesn't look like he really knew chanties or else, if he did, he changed what he knew to appear as "literature" for readers.

Here is one of many places where I think Hugill had no business quoting a source. Hugill, I think, should have been more critical of sources like this instead of saying (as it seems) "I found some verses in a book and I'll just accept them to be a quality representation of chanty tradition."

Hugill threw in "everything but the kitchen sink," as if to try to be thorough, but in actuality (my opinion) creating confusion by not being more judicious.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 04:54 PM

069 - Banks Of Sacramento (Patterson Halyard version) - (WITH PRESENTATION)

EN
Patterson's version is like Patterson's shanties, unusual. The first difficulty is that Patterson in his book doesn't give us music. In almost every his shanty he inserts short refrains where usually no refrain existed. Stan Hugill says that Patterson called his shanty 'hauling song', and gives us one stanza, but is not entirely true, because Patterson (J. E. Patterson "The Sea's Anthology" 1913) labeled this song as 'Capstan.' and give three verses, and after these three verses, he gives another 4 verses under the label "The same: as a hauling chanty'". So this song will be 'hauling song', particularly the Halyard shanty Capstan version I will sing separately.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 112).



Banks Of Sacramento (Patterson Halyard version)


Now, my lads, get your beds and lie down
    - With a HOOdah!
Now, my lads, get your beds and lie down
    - With a HOOdah, hoodah-DAY!

Blow, boys, blow, for Californi-O
    - With a HOOdah!
There's plenty of gold, so I've been told,
   - On the BANks of Sacramen-TO!

                     *2*
We came to a land where the cocktail flows
    - With a hoodah!
We came to a land where the cocktail flows
    - With a hoodah, hoodah-DAY!

Blow, boys, blow, for Californi-O
    - With a hoodah!
There's plenty of gold, so I've been told,
   - On the BANks of Sacramen-TO!

                     *3*
We came to a river where we couldn't get across
    - With a hoodah!
And the plenty of gold, as I'll have you told, Was a bully, bully loss
    - With a hoodah, hoodah-DAY!

Blow, boys, blow, for Californi-O
    - With a hoodah!
There's plenty of gold, so I've been told,
   - On the BANks of Sacramen-TO!

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 02 Mar 21 - 03:15 AM

068 - Banks Of Sacramento (Patterson Capstan version)

EN
This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
Patterson's version is like Patterson's shanties, unusual. The first difficulty is that Patterson in his book doesn't give us music. In almost every his shanty he inserts short refrains where usually no refrain existed. Stan Hugill says that Patterson called his shanty 'hauling song', and gives us one stanza, but is not entirely true, because Patterson (J. E. Patterson "The Sea's Anthology" 1913) labeled this song as 'Capstan.' and give three verses, and after these three verses, he gives another 4 verses under the label "The same: as a hauling chanty'". So this song will be 'Capstan.' Hauling version I will sing separately.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 112).



Banks Of Sacramento (Patterson Capstain version)


Now, my lads, get your beds and lie down
   - To me hoodah! To me hoodah!
Now, my lads, get your beds and lie down
   - To me hoodah, hoodah, O!

   - Blow, my bully-boys, blow,
   - For Californi-O !
   - There's plenty of gold,
   - So I've been told,
   - On the banks of Sacramento!

               *2*
In the Black Ball Line I served my time
In the Black Ball Line I served my time!

               *3*
O that was the line for cracking it on
O that was the line for cracking it on

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 11:23 AM

Steve Gardham

Fully agree with you, this is the reason, why I try do not to omit any of them, and the only way to bring them back is to understand work where was used. If we want to keep the legacy of shanties, we have to sing them as it is, without any interpretations or twicks.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 11:19 AM

There are a lot of issues, why shanties been forgotten in the first place at the end of the XIX, century. The revival in Grand Halls just confirmed misunderstanding shanties and forebitters.
Probably the biggest issue from mentioned time till now is that people still think music in terms of correction of notes is the really important thing in shanties. I think these things: music (i.e. melody or notes correction), and lyrics as well, are really think what nobody much cares about it, on the ship. Shantymen and shanties had a completely different role, the rough catching melody, and chorus were enough to do the role, namely, gives much better team effort in work.

So I list here those things, that can help understand the case, from my point of view:

1. Lyrics - important somehow for shantyman to carry over singing during the job. Sometimes it was hours, maybe days, depend on for example how leaky the ship it was, so to have tones of different "versions" of one song could help, especially when the crew doesn't know many melodies, this kind of using "versions" gives us great robustness. But lyrics were completely not important for the gang, of course, bawdy verses can cheer up devastated crew, theme or "version", can involve more sailor mentally into, so he can forget sometimes about his rough life which was good for him. But nobody cares about, unified version, which is significant or valuable from any research or academic point of view.

2. Tempo - the most important factor of any shanty, tempo gives preset for readiness for work, work pulses were the only way to move work forward better, and save power as well for next work. Here the center of shanty sense of existence happens. To singing shanty really authentically mean how close we can be to recreate those work pulses. If to achieve this ultimate goal we have to sacrifice melody, music notes, that's fine.

3. Melody - or music notes, important only to moment when sailors and shantyman can remember the rough pattern of melody. If the note goes up or down, or they sometimes not in point, or brother of Stan Hugill type it not exact? It doesn't matter, in the list of priorities they even not on the list of most important things.

4. Work - in this point I want to state is that in my opinion, shanty wasn't the most important thing to do jobs on the ship. Shanty it was just a helper, the significant helper but only helper. The shanties helped not only physically, I think help mentally as well.

5. Pronunciation or dialect - I think, all shanties in foreign Languages are especially exposed to extinction. My tryouts and also Gibb Sahib tryouts, to recreate those versions are really important, and mistakes in pronunciation are don't matter much, as long as we try to do everything to be close as possible for us, to the original pronunciation.

6. Recreation - This is my ultimate aim, to recreate all songs from Stan Hugill's "Shanties From the Seven Seas", and because it is His book, and his story, I take his approach versions, comments, and point of view. I do not judge him, I do not glorifying him or underestimate him. The process of my work is to: take a song, write lyrics for learning, write music notes from books, make audio file, if I have recorded version(only if the song is recorded by himself), it takes precedence over notes from the book. And after this, I try to understand as much as possible about work on what shanty is used. And after I put together all those things together, and I'm confident enough, I make a record and put it on YouTube with descriptions, and lyrics.

7. Personal opinions - I do everything to not involve my opinions in the recreation process, I do not judge which songs, verses, or versions should be sing, and which one I can omit. The general approach is, every version that is mention, I try to recreate, with a small addition from my site, namely: when Stan Hugill gives only one verse from the different collector, I try to find mentioned version and sing it in full, example, the beautiful full song 060 - A Long Time Ago (Gordon Hitchcock version). Same thing I will do on time when I will try to recreate songs from the next books (Colcord, Doerflinger...).

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 09:55 AM

I think there are also massive differences beyond the obvious between hauling and heaving chanties. They almost cover overlapping different eras and have obvious structural differences. This is only an opinion but I think the heaving chanties had more stable texts despite the leader having longer to think up the next line. The fact that some hauling chanties appear to have a stable narrative or catalogue structure is more down to the published edited versions than what was actually sung and improvised. I'm thinking of Boney, Whiskey, Reuben Ranzo and perhaps a few others. On the other hand chanties like Sally Brown which are amongst the oldest have had a much longer period to evolve some stable stock verses.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Feb 21 - 09:19 AM

One reason chanteys may have been ignored for so long is that they were typically inconclusive and incoherent, often with lines "plagiarized" from popular songs or improvised on the spur of the moment. Rhyme was desirable but mot required.

That may be one reason for the lubberly "chant" pronunciation and the spelling "chanties." They struck the average person more as odd chants than as songs anyone would sing for pleasure (and of course they weren't normally sing for pleasure, even by chanteymen.)

More structured, narrative chanteys, like some versions of "Blow the Man Down" and even "A-Roving," leant themselves to more stable rhymes and less extensive improvisation.

I suspect that sometimes a chanteyman felt he was "singing a song" (repeating, more or less accurately, a set of lyrics) and other times just singing rhymes.

Of course, Gibb has more experience singing chanteys in a determinedly trad, improvisatorial manner than just about anyone.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 10:26 PM

"Cape Horn theme" is a construct of Hugill's mind that he's bringing to the table, as he evidently felt it was a neat and/or compelling way to organize.

1. J. C. Colcord "Songs of American Sailormen" (1938)

A bully ship and a bully crew,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da!
A bully mate and a captain too,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da-day!

[THIS IS A GENERIC VERSE]

       *2*
Round Cape Horn in the month of May,
Round Cape Horn in the month of May

[THIS IS CAPE HORN]

       *3*
We came to a land where the cocktail flows,
We came to a land where the cocktail flows

[GENERIC]

       *4*
Came to a river and I couldn't get across,
Jumped on a slaver* and I thought he was hoss

[THIS IS FROM "POOR OLD MAN," A MINSTREL VERSE]


3. F. P. Harlow "The Making Of A Sailor" (1928)

Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! To me hoodah!
Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! hoodah day!

[THIS IS "DE CAMPTOWN LADIES"]

       *2*
A bully ship and a bully crew,
A bully mate and a skipper too.

[GENERIC]

       *3*
Oh, New York's race track, where we stood,
We bet on all they said was good.

[DE CAMPTOWN LADIES (RACE TRACK)]

       *4*
Our watch, our shoes and every rag,
But lost our money on a bob-tail nag.

[DE CAMPTOWN LADIES]

       *5*
Our money all gone we shipped to go
Around Cape Horn, where strong wids blow.

[CAPE HORN]

       *6*
We're bound for Californi-o;
For gold and banks of sacramento.
[GOLD RUSH - COULD RELATE TO CAPE HORN]


5. W. M. Doerflinger "Shantymen and Shantyboys! (1951)

It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - With me hoodah, and me hoodah,
It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - A with me hoodah, hoodah ay!

[GOLD RUSH]

       *2*
Were Going around the Horn and home again!
Were Going around the Horn and home again!
[CAPE HORN]

We sailed away one day in May,
And when we came out into the Bay,
[GOLD RUSH, MAYBE CAPE HORN]

       *4*
We got into Bay and then did sail!
We got into Bay and then did sail!
[REMAINING VERSES COULD BE CAPE HORN, BUT ALSO GENERIC]

So the only one of these that arguably sticks to "Cape Horn" related stuff is the last one.

Hugill sorted the verses into "versions" by presenting each as if they were exclusively devoted to a single theme. As someone who has sung chanties many times, and never sings them the same way twice, I find this hard to believe. It's just not how the brain works, of an improvising musician. You're thinking of "Sacremento" from the chorus, so maybe you singing about Frisco Bay. Then you're thinking of "De Camptown Ladies" (the original melody) so you steal a line from that. Then the minstrel quality of "De Camptown Ladies" sets your mind on other minstrel-style verses, so you go into "Poor Old Man." Then you fill time with a generic verse like "Was you every down Mobile Bay." Then, "Bay" puts your mind on another rhyme you've heard, "90 days is damn good pay"..."I thought I heard my captain say"..."A dollar a day won't pay my way", and on and on.
That's why, myself, I didn't feel it was necessary to sing every solo verse Hugill put down on the page. I consider them as the broader "language of chanties" and a pool from which to draw. Which verses I come up with don't change the chanty to one version or another. I see the true variations in terms of melodies and chorus lyrics.

I think it's worth learning/studying the verses of Hugill to acquire that "language." But I discard Hugill's analysis because I don't think he was equipped to analyze and I'm frustrated by how he clouded his life experiences and his reading and presented that as research. I also cloud my experiences with what I've read for performing. "Anything goes" when singing. Research is different :)

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 04:20 PM

Figures! Doesn't alter the anomally. Interesting that one line ended up in chanties 'Long-tailed filly and the big black oss'.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 03:49 PM

Steve, if that's how they sang it, it's because that's Stephen Foster wrote it!

https://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/collection/067/015

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 02:39 PM

Steve Gardham

This is a very fair point, and of course, again something that I will even never notice, I will never notice differences and catches this Pseudo Minstrels, not African-American. Maybe we can find somebody who knows more about it, this is so intriguing.

About rewrite history, well this probably happens as well, but if there is no evidence, what we can do?

And lastly, my aim is to get to the recreation of authentic shanties, as close to original as possible to me, so really the nice will be, to have representant of each language and dialect, what possible in songs are written in "Shanties From the Seven Seas". And I am so happy to have You and Gibb and hope other members dive into the case as deep as I can.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 12:18 PM

Hi Shogun
Sacramento D. This is absolutely the pseudo lingo of the Minstrels, not African-American as such, although I would like an African American to pronounce on that. Why would a chantyman be singing in this sort of stage language is a question we need to ask, even latter-day around the capstan.

Another point to notice is that the verses are in Minstrel lingo but the chorus isn't..no 'On de banks ob de Sacramento'.

Yes, at one point Stan was a latter-day chantyman, but he was also a writer, performer, historian, collector, lecturer, etc. He was also around at the time of Bert Lloyd when rewriting history was the norm.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 11:52 AM

67 - Sacramento (D)

This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
This is the "Camptown Races" version.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 110, 111).



Sacramento D

Camptown ladies sing this song,
   - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah!
Camptown race-track's five miles long.
   - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah day!

   - Blow, boys, blow!
   - For Californ-eye-O!
   - There's plenty o' gold so I've bin told,
   - On the banks o' the Sacramento

          *2*
Go down dar wid me hat caved in,
Come back home with me pockets full o' tin.

          *3*
De long-tailed filly an' de big black hoss,
Dey fly de track an' dey both cut ac ross.

          *4*
De blind hoss stickin' in a big mud hole,
Can't touch bottom wid a ten-foot pole.

          *5*
Ol' muley cow come out on de track,
De bob he fling her ober his back.

          *6*
Den fly along like a raiload car,
Runnin' a race wid a shootin' star.

          *7*
De sorrel hoss he's got a cough,
An' his rider's drunk in de ol' hay-loft.

          *8*
Dere's fourteen hosses in dis race,
Ah'm snug in de saddle an' got a good brace.

          *9*
De bobtail hoss she cain't be beat,
Runnin' around in a two-mile heat.

          *10*
Ah put me money on de bob-tail nag,
Somebody bet on de one-eyed lag.

          *11*
I win me money on de bobtail nag,
An' carry it home in de ol' tow-bag.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 11:13 AM

Gibb Sahib

I'm very interested in, what evidence you used to create a theory about Stan Hugill's "Cape Horn" version of Sacramento. I do not know any evidence to prove is that this version of "Sacramento" is fake. Even more than this, he explicitly says: "The most popular version was the Cape Horn one. It was probably the original one..."

"He may even have put some of his own verses" - Well, I don't want to use argument what you mentioned in your book "If Hugill says is good enough to me", but Stan Hugill was a shantyman in a real shanty environment, and if he sang extra verse or two, they became a shanty verse. So now is the question is, isn't this way shanty been created? So yes, this is the advantage of Stan Hugill, namely if He invents some verse or shanty, as a shantyman, it automatically becomes shanty as soon as first time been used for work.

Of course, we can dispute about did he do this compilation of the verses after, when he did not sail already, but this is pointless unless we have evidence.

But now we have an additional question, is that the "Cape Horn" theme, been unusual for this shanty? I did research on My library, and I get interesting findings. What I found is that the "Cape Horn" theme appears only in American Collectors: Colcord, Harlow, and Doerflinger, in English Collectors: Ferris and Tozer, Smith, Sharp and in their books theme not exist, exception is Stan Hugill.


If anyone wants to analyze those "Cape Horn" theme mentioned collectors, here I retyped them down:




"Cape Horn" related versions of Sacramento:

1. J. C. Colcord "Songs of American Sailormen" (1938)

A bully ship and a bully crew,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da!
A bully mate and a captain too,
   - Doo-da, Doo-da-day!

   - Then blow, ye winds, Hi-oh,
   - For Californy O!
   - There's plenty of gold, so I've been told,
   - on the banks of Sacramento!

        *2*
Round Cape Horn in the month of May,
Round Cape Horn in the month of May

        *3*
We came to a land where the cocktail flows,
We came to a land where the cocktail flows

        *4*
Came to a river and I couldn't get across,
Jumped on a slaver* and I thought he was hoss





2. J. C. Colcord "Roll And Go" (1924)

   - same as in "Songs of American Sailormen"





3. F. P. Harlow "The Making Of A Sailor" (1928)

Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! To me hoodah!
Oh, New York's race course is nine miles long.
   - To me hoodah! hoodah day!

   - Then it's blow, my buly boys, blow,
   - for Californio,
   - There's plenty of gold so I've been told
   - on the banks of Sacramento.

        *2*
A bully ship and a bully crew,
A bully mate and a skipper too.

        *3*
Oh, New York's race track, where we stood,
We bet on all they said was good.

        *4*
Our watch, our shoes and every rag,
But lost our money on a bob-tail nag.

        *5*
Our money all gone we shipped to go
Around Cape Horn, where strong wids blow.

        *6*
We're bound for Californi-o;
For gold and banks of sacramento.





4. F. P. Harlow "Chanteying aboard American Ships" (1962)

   - same as in "The Making Of A Sailor"






5. W. M. Doerflinger "Shantymen and Shantyboys! (1951)

It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - With me hoodah, and me hoodah,
It Was in the year eighteen hundred and forty nine,
   - A with me hoodah, hoodah ay!

   - Blow, boys, blow,
   - for Californi-aj! Ah,
   - there is lots of gold, oh, so I've been told,
   - Upon the banks of the Sacramento

        *2*
Were Going around the Horn and home again!
Were Going around the Horn and home again!

        *3*
We sailed away one day in May,
And when we came out into the Bay,

        *4*
We got into Bay and then did sail!
We got into Bay and then did sail!

        *5*
Into (Oh, into) the Forties soon we (a-we) did sail
Into (Oh, into) the Forties soon we (a-we) did sail

        *6*
Now we came to the hedge of the Trades and there did sail,
We came to the hedge of the Trades and there did sail,

        *7*
We set our stuns'ls on a quartering waind,
We set our stuns'ls on a quartering waind

        *8*
Now, when our sail were full on every stay,
With our old sails and every stay,

        *9*
She (Oh, she) strained her bustle and she dipped her nose!
She (Oh, she) strained her bustle and she dipped her nose!

        *10*
Now, our royals one day we took them in,
Our royals one day we took them in

        *11*
Oh, the doldrums came, and came so very slow,
Oh, the doldrums came, and came so very slow

        *12*
We climbed for days and we climbed for a week!
We climbed for days and we climbed for a week!


About the use word "Version", well is just a word that represents a description of the singular unit, which Stan Hugill decides to mention as something that existed stand alone. I don't want to change it, but if you want, I can use the word: variation, option. Stan Hugill uses the word "Version", and I try to recreate songs from his book, so sensible to me is use it.

About: "My inclination would just be to say "This is what Hugill said," rather than to use what Hugill said to state something definitive about the songs."
I used the phrase: "Stan Hugill thing, this version was the original one" so I think is, neutral enough. In all descriptions of my recreations, I try to put as much as possible of Stan Hugill and none myself as much as possible.




Steve Gardham

"'I'm really skeptical of calling anything a "version" in chanties.'
???? Me too"

I do understand this point of view. I think you cannot say it was a freeze "version" of the particular shanty, and nobody never added or took off from it because is prohibited. I think shanty have in their nature the flexibility to be changed by the shantymen, length of verses, add some unique verse, about the ship, He sails currently, and so on.

But I think is not a good idea to go to extreme relativism, and say melody same so this is the same song. I thig the moment when we can say this is a different "version", is when theme and motive are simply different, for example, the "Milkmaid" version and "Camptown Race", version. With all respect to Gibb Sahib who was right to say, there are exist some "generic" verses.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 10:39 AM

'I'm really skeptical of calling any thing a "version" in chanties.'
???? Me too

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Feb 21 - 03:02 AM

This might be clear already, but this "Cape Horn version" doesn't represent a song that was ever sung as such. Hugill has, I think, just thrown together miscellaneous verses, some that seem to pertain to a "Cape Horn - Gold Rush" theme and others that are floaters. Hugill may have heard someone sing several of these verses together in a single performance, but it's most likely he has created a composite based on verses he heard (or READ) from various sources. He may even have put some of his own verses in at the very time of writing.

It only appears as a "version" because of how he has grouped it within other phenomena. On one side: Evidently he noticed that more than one (we hope) person who sang "Sacramento" started off with the "As I was walking down the strand..." idea (Davis and Tozer was one source for this), and then would continue that bawdy theme in a narrative fashion. On the other side: He notes that some people basically sang the words to "De Camptown Ladies." In between these is just "Sacramento," a chanty that has no set lyrics (aside from the chorus) and which can include ideas from wherever. Hugill decided, I think, that since the California Gold Rush was contemporary, he'd "file" verses on that theme under the heading of a "version." I'm really skeptical of calling any thing a "version" in chanties.

The verses offered in various sources tend to be common or nondescript lines or floaters, e.g.

Oh the Shanghai race is ten miles long
The Shanghai race is ten miles long

In the Black Ball Line I served my time, ?
In the Black Ball Line I served my time,

We're bound for California I heard the old man say;
We're bound for California this very good day.

New York City is on fire
New York City is on fire

A bully ship and a bully crew,
A bully mate, and a captain, too,

Went to the river and I couldn't get across

As I was a walking down Liverpool street

As I was out upon the road one day,
Says I, “Old man, your horse is lame,” (floater from "Poor Old Man")

Oh, heave, my lads, oh heave and sing,
Oh, heave and make them oak sticks spring,

My inclination would just be to say "This is what Hugill said," rather than to use what Hugill said to state something definitive about the songs.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 05:02 PM

Villiers' books contain a lot of that type of information but they are referring to post 1900.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 04:09 PM

Steve Gardham

18 verses for anchor heave is not much, to be honest, I talk with some experienced people, about the matter of heaving anchor. So Jim Mageean, Marek Szurawski, and Simon Spalding, and the conclusion were, the standard heave on a merchant ship was between 30 minutes up to one hour. This conclusion is kind of confirmed by Stan Hugill in his book, on page 94 first edition of "Shanties From the Seven Seas", in the description of the: "Opsang For Brasiliefareren, Bryggen Preciosa" capstan shanty, which have 54 verses, and I been proud to sing this shanty in full. Stan Hugill says: "In Opsang can be found the other forty-three verses he wrote - quite enough to finish a long heave!".
To sang this shanty, it took me around 33 minutes. But I'm not sure if the tempo wasn't too fast.
And in yesterday's conversation with Simon Spalding, reveal another not discussed never fact about the tempo of the shanties, especially anchor-capstan ones. Namely, I'm talking about, the people in nowadays try to do presentations on traditional sailing ships, but I think they do not take as a factor much much smaller crews, also much much bigger ships. Just imagine the difference to heave anchor on Joseph Conrad (Mystic Seaport Museum) with 20 people of the crew, and compare it to heave on Sedov or Krusenstern, with not sure much probably fewer people. In this case, the tempo drops drastically, also we have to add for example fact that half of the crew was "Shanghaied", others have a hangover from last night's Sailor Town parties.

What he really needs help with is whether anyone in our forum knows is that exists some books contain information such as the number of crew, officers, and so on, in certain merchant ships. I dug only one value from a book about german ships, and was informed about the crew on Flying P-Liner "Preussen" has 17-23 crew members.

About evidence of the Foster materials, well, I do not know more about him than Stan Hugill gives to us.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 09:51 AM

That's some long anchor chain/cable on that last one!:-)

I don't believe I've seen any evidence that Foster took any of his material from pre-existing songs.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 03:00 AM

066 - Sacramento (C)

This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
This version the Cape Horn one is the most popular one. Stan Hugill thing this version was the original one, and it can be sung to either tune or to a mixture of both tunes, depending on the number of syllables in the verses.
This version I will try to recreate is capstan, and I heard it on Stan Hugill's album - „Sailing Days” (1991). Last note, this song was recorded two years ago and at the time I record it I didn't have as much knowledge about shanties as I have now so pronunciation can be not perfect.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 109).


Sacramento C

Oh around Cape Horn we are bound for to go
   - To me Hoo-dah! To me Hoo-dah!
Around Cape Horn through the sleet an' the snow,
   - To me Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah day!

   - Blow, boys, blow!
   - For Californ-eye-O!
   - There's plenty o' gold so I've bin told,
   - On the banks of the Sacramento!

             *2*
Oh around the Horn with a mainskys'l set,
Around Cape Horn an' we're all wringin' wet.

             *3*
Oh, around the Horn in the month o' May,
Oh, around the Horn is a very long way.

             *4*
Them Dago gals we do adore,
They all drink vino an' ask for more.

             *5*
Them Spanish gals ain't got no combs,
They comb their locks with tunny-fish bones.

             *6*
To the Sacramento we're bound away,
To the Sacramento's hell o' a way.

             *7*
We're the buckos for to make 'er go,
All the way to the Sacramento.

             *8*
We're the bullies for to kick her through,
Roll down the hill with a hullabaloo,

             *9*
Starvation an' ease in a Yankee ship,
We're the bullies for to make 'er rip.

             *10*
Santander Jim is a mate from hell,
With fists o' iron an' feet as well.

             *11*
Breast yer bars an' bend yer back,
Have an' make yer spare ribs crack.

             *12*
Round the Horn an' up to the Line,
We're the bullies for to make 'er shine

             *13*
We'll crack it on, on a big skiyoot,
Ol' Bully Jim is a bloody big brute.

             *14*
Oh, a bully ship wid a bully crew,
But the mate is a bastard through an' through.

             *15*
Ninety days to 'Frisco Bay,
Ninety days is damn good pay.

             *16*
Oh, them wuz the days of the good ol' times,
Back in the days of the Forty-nine.

             *17*
Sing an' have an' heave an' sing,
Heave an' make them handspikes spring.

             *18*
An' I wish to Gold I'd niver bin born,
To go a-ramblin' round Cape Horn.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 23 Feb 21 - 08:14 AM

065 - Sacramento (B)

This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook".
Sacramento came into been aboard the great ships of those times "Sea Witch", "Flying Cloud", "Romance of the Seas", and so on, at the time of California Gold Rush (1849). At the same time was published almost exact same song Stephen Foster's "Camptown Races", which was first is hard to say. Did foster copy his song from shanty? Colcord definitely states that this shanty is "slaver minstrel' song "Camptown Races". Terry, although he doesn't say so outright, seems to think that the shanty came first.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 108).


Sacramento B

Oh, as I was walkin' down the street
   - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah!
A charmin' gal I chanet to meet.
   - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah day!

   - Blow, boys, blow!
   - For Californ-eye-O!
   - There's plenty o' gold so I've bin told,
   - On the banks o' the Sacramento

            *2*
The gal was fair an sweet to view,
Her hair so brown an' her eyes so blue

            *3*
I raised me hat an' said 'How do?',
Sez she, 'Quite well, no thanks to you'

            *4*
I asked her if she take a trip
A-down the docks to see my ship

            *5*
She quickly answered, 'Oh, dear, no.
I tank you but I cannot go.

            *6*
'My love is young, my love is true,
I wouldn't leave my love for you'.

            *7*
So quickly then I strode away,
I'd not another word to say

            *8*
An' as I bade this gal adieu,
I said that gals like her were few.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 03:37 AM

Steve Gardham

Yes, I do have a copy of Stan's 'The Bosun's Locker', and thanks for permission, the description now is updated, here current description:

"This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook". The origin of this shanty has many controversies. Due to tune, form, and "Hoodah" or "Doodah" chorus, it has long been associated with Stephen Foster's "Camptown Races". C. F. Smith claims this shanty came after the minstrel ditty, it is very curious that a new set of words should have been fitted to the chorus of "Camptown Races", while it was still a new song.
The 'fairies', which is of great interest to me as I'm interested in the history of the Port of Goole where many German ships docked (still do). The local girls of the night are called locally 'dock fairies'. There is a TV program on Youtube from the 70s 'Gosling's Travels' that interviews some of the fairies on how the German seamen are much more generous than the locals (thanks to Steve Gardham from "The Mudcat Caffe" forum, for the explanation and story of the 'fairies' word).
"Fairy" was also late 19th century U.S. slang for a young woman.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 107, 108)."

Lighter

Thanks for the story, it is great to know this kind of slang bit, so it can be useful for understanding American chanteys.

Gibb Sahib

This is a great story, very intriguing to me is that you visited Germany and when it was if I can ask?
Also, you pointed out quite an intriguing point in "The Boxing Compass" about the origin of chanteys at all. Very intriguing to Me is the question, where you get access to "Atlantic Monthly"(1858), "Oberlin Students Monthly"(1858), and "Riverside Magazine"(1868)?

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 01:42 AM

>What would be the Hamborger Platt pronunciation?

"Raperbahn" as you said.

When I went there, as soon as I emerged from the underground, one of the "fairies" had grabbed my arm and was trying to pull me somewhere. They'll block your path and you literally have to push them out of the way if you want to make progress down the street. (That is, if you visit as a lone gentleman.) Then there's the one alley, with barricades at each end, that non-working women are forbidden to enter. I understood that many were Polish, incidentally. By dawn, I had figured out how to sort of stand so nonchalantly that I wasn't propositioned anymore!

I believe there was one bar, quite close, called "De Hamborger Veermaster."

I listened to a German guy tell me a LONG story in one of the bars, only nodding and smiling as I could guess it was time to nod and smile. He finally ended his spiel and asked, "Right?" I said "Sorry, I don't speak German." He was a little angry! It was an unusual experience for me because I'm used to traveling places where I look different than most of the population, but there they could assume I was local and people kept saying things to me that I could barely understand -- though Platt, like Dutch, is one of the closest languages to English.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 01:42 PM

"Fairy" was also late 19th century U.S. slang for a young woman.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 01:33 PM

Hi Reinhard. Yes, I should have checked but we pronounce it 'Raperbahn' anyway. What would be the Hamborger Platt pronunciation?

You can use freely anything I post, Shogun. I presume you have a copy
of Stan's 'The Bosun's Locker' and a great companion to 'Shanties from the Seven Seas'. Gibb is also my first port of call if I want to know about chanty history.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Reinhard
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 07:35 AM

It's Reeperbahn in Hamburg, Steve, with two e.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 11:52 AM

Steve Gardham

Yes, you absolutely right about the word 'fairles', It happens because of two of the things:
One    - is because I probably not understand 100 % of nautical terminology, and tars vocabulary (but I do try hard to do so).
Second - The first verses of songs in "Shanties From the Seven Seas", are written under music notation, in kind of the 'Handwriting fashion', and letters are really small, so I just misread, I checked it again with a magnifying glass, and it confirmed, you right. I will try to ask the admin to change it for me.

I will be really happy if I could add this "fairies" story to my YT Description, it could be great if I can quote your name.

About the conversation between Me and Gibb Sahib, Gibb is the person who is one of my mentors, in fact, He doesn't know about it, but His recording of Stan Hugill book, and gives a billion lines of really knowledgeable pieces of information about shanties, and maritime folk. Even more because now also I have a chance to read his book: "Boxing the Compass" (not finished yet, but already can say is a great source of knowledge), which gives a more formal way for me to deep diving into shanties and maritime knowledge. It is really great news is that He look at my thread, and already pointed out some great details about the "Dialects" of German shanties.

A bit about myself:
I love the shanties and forebitters, but my love for shanties comes from my general interest in music. My first Interest was a protest and freedom songs of Polish Bard Jacek Kaczmarski, was the time when between the civilized world and my country it was an Iron Curtain, and songs from "West" we could listen only in Radio "Free Europe", what transmitted from London (as far as I remember), in those times I took the classic guitar to my hands, and with happiness, I used it till now. The music from the west also was smuggling in the luggage of those lucky people who could travel to "West Countries". I remember it was two types of passports, one for countries of the Warsaw Pact (this one was possible to achieve), and an unlimited one (this one can have very few people). So I played on a guitar till my sailing start, around 1990ish, from this time I play and sing sailor songs, sea songs, and everything that was on Polish sailor songbooks.

The true attention and happiness to real understand shanties is about maybe 2-3 years, this time I try to use a really right academic approach, and more. I try to get all the most important books to read about shanties as close original as possible. My hunting also includes getting all possible original records of Stan Hugill, because I believe, his one song is worth a thousand books. Before every my record I try to imagine work, with this particular shanty, so this is the reason, for crazy movements on some of my records. For example, when I singing capstan shanty, I physically push the desk towards the wall, due to lack of capstan.
Since some times when I realized is that guitar doesn't really been an instrument used on boards of the merchant ships, so I start playing in a concertina. My mentors apart from Gibb, but this time I have contact with them are Marek Szurawski, Simon Spalding, and Jim Mageean, those three great shantymen are so kind to help me a lot on my research.

My last activity to get closer to recreate the original shanty in an authentic way is "Erie Maritime Museum and Brig Niagara Online Sail Training Course", to understand better, work on board, and also get a better understanding of vocabulary.
I hope Steve Gardham will be enough about myself but feel free to ask further questions, and of course, I will be really happy if Gibb Sahib and other mudcat members will be keen to help me achieve my ultimate goal, which is: get back to shanty to people in the way they sound on the greatest time.

NOTE! - my 'fairles' mistake was corrected by the admin, thanks really for this.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 08:18 AM

Hi Shogun
Why don't you tell us a bit about yourself?

Fascinating conversation between you and Gibb.

First verse of 'Sacramento A' has an important error. Your 'fairles' are 'fairies', which is of great interest to me as I'm interested in the history of the Port of Goole where many German ships docked (still do). The local girls of the night are called locally 'dock fairies'. There is a TV programme on Youtube from the 70s 'Gosling's Travels' that interviews some of the fairies on how the German seamen are much more generous than the locals.

Coincidentally I also sing a recently written song by a friend of mine about the girls of the Reaperbahn in Hamburg, the St Pauli Girls. Great song.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 04:29 AM

064 - Sacramento (A)

This song was sung as a capstan anchor shanty, especially when raising the "mud-hook". The origin of this shanty has many controversies. Due to tune, form, and "Hoodah" or "Doodah" chorus, it has long been associated with Stephen Foster's "Camptown Races". C. F. Smith claims this shanty came after the minstrel ditty, it is very curious that a new set of words should have been fitted to the chorus of "Camptown Races", while it was still a new song.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 107, 108).



Sacramento A

As I wuz rollin' down the strand,
   - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah!                                             
I met two fairies hand in hand,
   - Hoo-dah! Hoo-dah day!

   - Blow, boys, blow!
   - For Californ-eye-O!
   - There's plenty o' gold so I've bin told,
   - On the banks o' the Sacramento

               *2*
I chose the one with the curly locks,
She let me chase her o'er the rocks,

               *3*
I chased her high, I chased her low,
I fell down an' broke me toe.

               *4*
Off to the doctor I did go,
An' I showed him my big toe.

               *5*
In came the doctor with a bloomin' big lance,
'Now, young sailor, I'll make you dance!'

               *6*
In came the nurse with a mustard poultice,
Banged it on, but I took no notice.

               *7*
Now I'm well and free from pain,
I'll never court flash gals again.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 04:11 AM

063 - California

Shortly after the young congressman, Abraham Lincoln came home from Washington and settled down again to the practice of law in Springfield, Illinois, there were announcements in news-papers occasionally, such as, "All who are interested in the California expedition will meet at candle-light to-night in the courthouse." California then was a place to talk about, to guess, and wonder about. The news came from Sutter's Creek: ten men shook pay dirt through hand screens and found a million dollars apiece in gold nuggets; the San Francisco city council adjourned without setting a date when it would meet again, churches closed their doors, newspapers stopped printing, ships lay in the harbor with no sailors, cooks, and soldiers ran away from military forts. A free-for-all rush started to the gold-digging: a spade sold for $1,000.00. It was news that made New York and London sit up. Across the Great Plains came wagon trains; in ten miles along the Plate River, a traveler counted 450 wagons. At the trial's end was gold and California...

This shanty is the first song opening the "Sacramento" family. This shanty was always sung at the capstan and especially when raising the 'mud-hook'. Stan Hugill in "Shanties From the Seven Seas" gives us only one verse, it comes from a book called "The American Songbag" by Carl Sandburg (1927). Fortunately, I found this book so I will be very proud to sing it for you, in full five stanzas version.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 106).


California


When formed our band, we are all well manned,
To journey a far to the promised land,
The golden ore is rich in store,
on the banks of the Sacramento shore,

   - Then ho, boys, ho, To California go,
   - There's plenty of gold in the world I'm told,
   - On the banks of the Sacramento shore.

*2*
As oft we roam o'er the dark sea's foam,
We'll not forget kind friends at home,
But memory kind still brings to mind
The love of friends we left behind.

*3*
We'll expected our share of the coarset fare,
And sometimes sleep in the open air.
On the cold damp ground we'll all sleep sound
Except when the wolves go howling round.

*4*
As we explore to the distant shore,
Filling our pockets with the shining ore,
How it will sound as the shout goes round,
Filling our pockets with a dozen of pounds.

*5*
The gold is there almost anywhere;
We dig it out rich with an iron bar,
But where it is thick, with spade or pick
We take out chunks as big as a brick.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 05:04 AM

Shogun,

Just figure out how to pronounce it! Call it whatever you want; you're making it too complicated with all these names. :)

I don't see the point in reading words from a book in a foreign language without knowing how to pronounce the words.

You had called it a "German" song, and I also noticed one thing you were doing in pronunciation was Standard German style: Pronouncing "S" like Z in English "zebra." But in Platt (pick a dialect!) the S should be like S in Italian "salami". That's different than Standard German.

There are Platt songs in Hugill and there are Standard German songs in Hugill. You'll need to distinguish them.

LOW GERMAN
De Hoffnung
De Hamborger Veermaster
Wat Wi Doht
De Runer Von Hamborg
No den Süden to...
Magelhan x 2
De Kock

HIGH GERMAN
Die Gute Alte Brigg
Es Gingen Drei Mädchen
Upidee, Upidah
Frisch Auf, Alle Mann an Deck
Hamburg, Du Schöne Stadt
Das Sampanmädchen

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 10:05 AM

... continue on "Platedeutsh"

In conversation with Simon Spalding, which is an expert on shanties, world folk music, and musicologist who play multiple traditional instruments, also he is passionate about languages of the world. For my question: Is there "Hamborger Platt" any unique and differ from Plattdeutch" or other types, in the context of Stan Hugill's notes about language matter used in German shanties?

the answer was:

"To answer your question about Plattdeutsch - they use this term for the local dialect all over northern Germany, for dialects which are not all the same. However, I can see- from more experience in the countryside than Stan had - that what he calls “typical Hamburg sailor dialect “ is identical to typical "Ostfriesian country dialect “. This because in the past, if a young man didn’t have enough local work, he could always go to Hamburg or Bremen to find a berth on a merchant ship (often a British one), or go to Wilhelmshafen ( when it was finished) to join the navy. For young Ostfriesian males of strong mind and body, the sea has been a “default employment “ for a long time- you can still sense it."

So this slightly corrects me to move from identifying actual German sailors' dialect from "Hamborger Platt" into "Ostfriesian country dialect “. And this is probably the native dialect that "De Hoffnung" has been sung.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 12 Feb 21 - 10:10 AM

062 - De Hoffnung - (English version)


Stan Hugill tells, is that this shanty was popular aboard a German four-masted barque, He was shipped in called "Gustav", hailing from Bremen. The first time Stan Hugill heard this version from Ossie Ziemer, young seamen from the Fresian Islands, would often raise it at t'gallant halyards. To raise up this yard, it was always sung, long haul type halyard shanty(slower tempo), due to the huge weight of the yard.
This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty.
Here is the English translation by Ingo Scharf. It also possible that the song has never been sung at sea, and Hugill just posts a translation of a German song, whatever, in My opinion, this beautiful translation deserves to use it. And even feel proud of the possibility I will be the first person to singing it this text.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 105).



De Hoffnung - English Translation



De Hoffnung was a hundreed days under way,
         - to my way, hay, hoday.
She sailed from Hamburg to Valparaiso.
         - a long time ago.

*2*
She sailed good and she sailed hard,
She had such a fine and costly cargo.

*3*
And as the Old Man swore and cursed,
The Devil came climbing over the rail.

*4*
If you bring me to the Channel in ten days time,
Surely as you stink you will get my soul.

*5*
The old hulk, at last, went nineteen knots,
THe Devil had the skysails set.

*6*
And when she came to the channel to anchor,
Then said the Devil, 'Give me your soul.'

*7*
Then said the Old Man, 'Take your time,
We have to anchor by Cape St. Patric".

*8*
The Devil now was more than overjoyed,
He ran up the fo'c'sle-head to let go the anchor.

*9*
The old carpenter was greatly pleased,
He had spliced the Devil's backside to the anchor.

*10*
And as the anchor went down to the ground,
The Devil went with it--the dirty big hound!

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Feb 21 - 03:50 AM

I will try to compare Standard German, Platt, Dutch, and English. (It is my **attempt** to convert to Standard German and Dutch equivalent. Someone will correct me, but I think it is close enough for the purpose.)

STANDARD GERMAN:
Und als sie jetzt kommen in den Kanal um zu Stelle
Dort sagt der Teufel, "Jetzt hier mit der Seele!"
[Listen to pronunciation]

PLATT:
Un as se nu kemen in'n Kanal to Stell,
Dar seggt de Düvel, "Nu her mit de Seel!"
[Listen to Hannes Wader recording for pronunciation]

DUTCH:
En als ze nu komen in het kanaal om te stellen,
Daar zegt de duivel: "Nu hier met de ziel!"

ENGLISH literal translation:
An' as they now come in the Channel to stall (anchor)
There says the Devil, "Now here with the soul!"

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 11 Feb 21 - 03:11 AM

Gibb Sahib

Thanks for your comment, now I do know about another bit of the puzzle, to bring me closer to authenticity. You point me to detail I miss. So now I will try to select the native speakers more carefully. If you see other bits I should focus on, please let me know, so my work will be better.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Feb 21 - 02:50 AM

Moin, moin! (greeting in Platt)

"Plattdeutsch" = German name for the language/dialect
"Low German" = English name for the language/language
"Platt" = short name of it

Contrast with "Hochdeutsch" = "High German" = what tends to be considered "standard" German.

Plattdeutsch is especially associated with Hamburg (called "Hamborg" in Plattdeutsch). So, "Hamborger Platt."

Hamburg is the seaport most associated with German shipping, so most of the sailor songs are in Plattdeutsch. If I remember correctly, only 1 or 2 of the "German" songs in Hugill's book are High German. The rest are Low German.

Plattdeutsch / Low German is slightly more similar to Dutch/Nederlands and English than High German.

Plattdeutsch pronunciation is different. For example, in Standard German the letter "S" makes Z sound of "Zebra." In Plattdeutsch, S makes S sound of "Seven." The orthography/spelling resembles Dutch. "R" has "rolled" sound.

Pronunciation of "Hamborg" is like /hamboich/.

I think some of the German shanty choirs "convert" the Plattdeutsch words/pronunciation to Standard German, so be careful when you listen to examples.

I think Hannes Wader sings with proper pronunciation.
https://youtu.be/gHtybtPxrEM

I am no expert on this. I'm just sharing what I learned after studying to sing the Plattdeutsch songs.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 11 Feb 21 - 02:14 AM

About difference between: "Plattedeutsh" and "Hamborger Platt"

Here two native Germans who asked my question about the difference between the two varaieties of German:

Source One:
1. Plattdeutsch ( Low German) is a germanic language variety spoken especially in northern Germany, depending in the Region you can find plenty of under categories such as ostfriesisch, Oldenburger platt, Hamburger platt and many more.
So the answer to your question is: No it's Not the Same, Hamburger Platt is an under category of Plattdeutsch
2. Following Link will direct you to an excellent Video to learn the Song, as it's Not sung by are couir. https://youtu.be/CzJNM2QF7qU

Source Two:
"Plattdeutsch ist eine eigene Sprache mit eigener Grammatik! Haben es noch in der Schule gelernt! Die Hamburger sprechen einen Dialekt! Und auch das Friesische ist eine völlig eigenständige Sprache die aber auch gar nicht mit dem Platt und dem Hamburgischen Dialekt zu tun hat!".
English Translation:
"Low German is its own language with its own grammar! Learned it in school! The people of Hamburg speak a dialect! And Frisian is also a completely independent language that has nothing to do with the Platt and the Hamburg dialect!".

That is tented me to opinion to that dialect are different, or at least German natives see this difference clearly. Of course to find what is a difference in those dialects is out of the scope of my research, but I know for sure, I need to find native German, who speak in "Hamborger Platt", to be close as possible to recreate further, German shanties and forebitters from Stan Hugill's book.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 10 Feb 21 - 02:58 PM

Gibb Sahib

So now is the question, is that "Plattedeutsh" is the same as "Hamborger Platt", I cannot answer this question and need to be researched further, and is not an easy case for me, here one of German explanation of the case:

...Platt or Plattdeutsch is the slang term for the Low German language. This consists of a large number of local dialects, which are often provided with the place name to distinguish them, for example, Oldenburger Platt, East Frisian Platt, Sauerländer Platt, or Heidjer Platt spoken in the Lüneburg Heath.

Wooden beams with the inscription
The term "Heidjer Platt" belongs, like other dialects, to different Lower Saxony dialect groups: to North Lower Saxony in the northwest and to Ostfälisch (Heideostfälisch) in the southeast. The dividing line runs roughly along the Uelzen-Celle-Wedemark line. These dialects can still be found frequently in everyday life today. Neighboring dialects are Holsteiner Platt, Hamburger Platt, the dialects around Bremen, and the East Westphalian dialects further ...

source:
naturpark lueneburger

Seems to be related, but are they pronounce exactly the same?
So maybe you have some other sources, which is giving some light, how German sailor language sound, or you just base of note from "Shanties From the Seven Seas"?

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 10 Feb 21 - 01:42 PM

Gibb Sahib

Thanks for your attention, this is great news for me, the shanty expert such you, look at it.
I will gently ask you to be a little bit more precise in your comments. Do you mean the song needs to be singing in Plattdeutsch? I'm not sure what you mean?
About this what says Hugill on page 105 first edition of "Shanties From the Seven Seas", is "Low German of Hamburg", which is actually called: "Hamborger Platt" which is a variety of standard German.
To be honest, I did not been as precise to find a person with "Hamborger Platt" accent, however, this is a good point, for the next shanty in German, I will try to find a person with this particular accent, but I cannot promise it until somebody agrees.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Feb 21 - 12:58 AM

It's Plattdeutsch. Different pronunciation than Standard German.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 09 Feb 21 - 11:21 AM

061 - De Hoffnung - (German)

EN
Stan Hugill tells, is that this shanty was popular aboard a German four-masted barque, He was shipped in called "Gustav", hailing from Bremen. The first time Stan Hugill heard this version from Ossie Ziemer, young seamen from the Fresian Islands, would often raise it at t'gallant halyards. To raise up this yard, it was always sung, long haul type halyard shanty(slower tempo), due to the huge weight of the yard.
This song was very popular in English and American Ships. It was probably, in the nineties of XIX century of the most-used halyard shanty of them all. Even the German and Scandinavians popularized versions in their own tongues. This song was sung as halyard shanty.
"Shanties from the Seven Seas" by Stan Hugill (1st ed: p 104).


De Hoffnung

De Hoffnung wor hunnert Dag ünner wegs,
         - to my way, hay, hoday.
Se seil von Hamborg no Valparaiso.
         - a long time ago.

             *2*
Se seilte good und se seilte hart,
Se harr so'ne gode kostbare Fracht.

             *3*
Un as de Ool nu flucht un gnattert,
Dor keem de Düvel över de Reeling klattert.

             *4*
Wenn mi in tein Dag nenn Kanal du bringst,
Denn krigst mien Seel, so woor as du stinkst.

             *5*
De Pott leep negentein Mielen toletzt,
Dor harr de Düvel de Skyseils bisett.

             *6*
Un as se nu kemen in'n Kanal to Stell,
Dar seegt de Düvel "Nu her mit de Seel!".

             *7*
Dar seeg de Ool „Nu lot di man tiet",
"We goot to Anker bi Cape St. Patric".

             *8*
De Düvel de weer vör Freid ganz weg,
He leep op de Back, sett de Anker op slip.

             *9*
De ole Timm'mann har grote Freid,
He harr den Düvel sien'n Steert mitvertäut.

             *10*
Un as de Anker nu suust an den Grund,
Suust de Düvel mit, disse Swienehund.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Shogun
Date: 09 Feb 21 - 03:10 AM

A little explanation of how a single song recreation and record process happens.

Stan Hugill, in his "Shanties From the Seven Seas," gives us shanties and forebiters not only in the English language. He also gives us shanties in foreign Languages such as Norwegian, German, and more, but I cannot confirm what other languages he used, because I'm in the stage of analysis first part of the book.


To achieve the result as close as possible to the authentic origin, I do the following steps to record the song:
Every time, when I start to recreation process after then I copy notes and generate a melody to learn and memorize, If the song is in a Language that I'm unsure about pronunciation, I find somebody who is native to the Language of the song. I ask this person to record for me text when he read it, and this is the basis for learning text to the song. But of course, are other issues like the balance of accents, and slowness or speed up of the sentences, also dynamics of the language can be different between singing and talking. So after recording, I sent the record to a person who helped me with the record.

Do I use records of the songs to learn melodies, yes but I do it only in one unique circumstance when I have an original song signing by Stan Hugill himself. In this situation I think is best to get the authentic sound and soul of the particular shanty. In other situations, I use only my intuition, and knowledge about the type of work when a particular shanty was used.

It is another exception worth noting: even if I have the performance of Stan Hugill, sometimes very rarely, I slow down the tempo of the shanty, especially when records are in later yers of Stan Hugill singing, and it is because I think and this is not only mine opinion, in the last performances of Stan Hugill, he takes more as consideration stage circumstances, i.e. speed up songs to better music and art results.

Generally, about tempo, when I do record, in most cases, especially in pump and capstan shanty I get the assumption is that sailors are tired and not very happy, due to circumstances of they hard live, and work. So the tempo can be a bit slower, but I think is really different when sailors sing the first song in pumps, and how it sounds after 2 hours of pumping. I assume after the first one or two shanties in optimistic speed, tempo stabilized on the slower but constant and still dynamic tempo (In the next posts I will try to explain tempo issue in other types of shanties).

And lastly, when I do not have access to Stan Hugill's performance, I follow my intuition and knowledge about the type of shanty and circumstances when was used. The other sources and records of particular shanty I listen to only after the record been made, so I'm sure they do not have an impact on my version. Of course, in many cases they matched with other sources, but not always, I thig the ratio is 50/50 if of course song is found.

Subject: RE: Discovering world legacy of shanties by 'Shogun'
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Feb 21 - 04:20 PM

Great stuff, Shogun. A very useful thread being compiled here.