St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 07:01 PM

"I had always assumed that the 'clouting up' was using a cloth to polish the shoes (using the old plural shoen) and the inference was of someone crouching down submissively at the feet of another person, and that whoever the two were the happening was as unlikely as all the other pairings in the song."

I once heard it explained as fastening but the image is the same.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 08:12 PM

I had always assumed that the 'clouting up' was using a cloth to polish the shoes (using the old plural shoen) and the inference was of someone crouching down submissively at the feet of another person, and that whoever the two were the happening was as unlikely as all the other pairings in the song.

One of the rustic players in a Midsummer Night's Dream represents the moon, with a lantern (lant-horn?) and a dog - if I remember aright. That, however doesn't give an antagonistic pair the wrong way round/never going to happen meaning, which Henry and the pope would do.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 05:29 PM

"Funnel" is a holdover from the early American wood-burners which were the same sort of moveable fire hazards as locomotives. Think of those sky-scraping early Yank riverboat chimneys &c.

The proper name was a bonnet chimney. It's a second, outer tube wrapped around the exhaust to serve as a spark arrestor. The funnel shape collected the hot cinders at the bottom. The name stuck around after the switch to coal/oil &c.

The grey/gray funnel line as slang was around before Tawney but I suspect it didn't get really popular until WWII.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: GUEST,guest- Kathy D
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 12:32 PM

Re: Who's the Fool now:
Cannot recall the source for this, but I was told that "Pieterschoon" (No idea how to spell, or if this was an old English or another language- I'm using more or less Dutch spelling) was an early name for a lantern, developing from referring to carrying a candle in a shoe, and then muddling it with St Peter's shoes. It was supposed to be a particular type of lantern, like the small, many-paned lantern more commonly now seen in gnome statues. I however have never been able to locate that word again.
Whatever, because the song actually has a method to its nonsense by plays on images, the idea of the man in the moon adjusting the light by closing off/ clouting/cobbling the lantern seemed to fit.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 09:11 AM

At the risk of dragging up old controversy, she who scrapes fiddle has dictated that we sing 'Who's the Fool Now' in our vague repertoire. (Bayfolk Beware).

So, naturally, the meaning of 'clouting of St Peter's shoon' and this thread googled to the surface.

Having read said dead thread, I do like the theory that 'The Man in the Moon' is a metaphor phor King Henry VIII and 'St Peter's shoon' is a mataphor phor the Catholic church. Thus, in the best tradition of political nursery nonsense rhymes his 'clouting of St Peter's shoon' stood for 'making a fool of the Catholic Church'.

Any road up, that'll do for me.

Now, where's me tooning fork. 'Mnyaa....'

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 04:09 AM

"All meanings may apply"......and most of them rude, according to James Reeve in The Idiom of the People. Though he has this song as Well Done Liar - and without the St Peter verse.
So the point of the song is that the impossible becomes possible if you know the hidden meaning.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 03:43 AM

Ah, the wonders of speculation. As I said to a similar discussion on the meanings of the verses of Jock-A-Mo (Iko Iko) like Shanties, more than one meaning was entirely possible - then we take the meaning that suits us.

I like the idea of St Peter's Shoon (as Cyril Tawney said it at the Four Fools Folk Festival in Leigh) being used as a nick-name for the pinnace. If you can't walk on the water you could get ashore at least in a boat.

And would not Martin be referring to Henry VIII wanting to be the English (and Welsh) equivalent of the Pope, thereby shining St Peter's Shoon being a subtle dig. Being Catholic in those days would have been too dangerous to admit openly.

As I said, unless you were there, and even if you were there: All meanings may apply

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 01:49 PM

Clouting is likely to mean hammering clouts (i.e. hobnails) into St Peter's shoes.

With the example of all the other impossible/ridiculous things in the song, what could be better at helping St Peter to walk on water than an array of heavy nails to stop the soles of his boots wearing out? :-)

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:19 AM

Clout, Yorkshire for a cloth, sometimes meaning clothes, hence the old Yorkshire saying ' never cast a clout till May's out '

Dave H

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: GUEST,Hal England, Sussex.
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:21 AM

Looks like St Peter's shoes has been thoroughly explained. Howver, 'clouting on St Peter's shoon' I found interesting.

Today, we talk of single 'shoe' and many 'shoes', i.e. Words are pluralised by adding 's'.

In Middle English, words were pluralised by adding 'n' - so 1 shoe, many shoon (...hence 'St Peter's shoon'.) and, in both senses, was used by Shakespeare.

The 'n' plural still hangs around in words like 'men' women' and chicken, 'chick' being the singular, reflected in the term "she's a great looking chick'.

'Clout', apart from meaning 'a heavy blow', also descibes a type of short, thick, headed nail - a type often used by bootmakers as studs in rhe sloes of work boots. Thus, 'cloutin' on St Peter's shoon' might mean meanding, repairing or reenforcing St Peter's shoes.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: GUEST,Jack Woolley
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 09:53 AM

It is true that clout means cloth, and somebody has suggested "polishing". This could be a reference to the Man in the Moon (Henry VIII) bowing to the Pope (St. Peter). Hence, an unlikely event in this song of unlikely events.

Around Yorkshire, however, it is pronounced clart, as in "Come round t'back lass and doff thi' clarts". That's more like it!

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:08 PM

There have been a few threads on Martin Said to His Man on Mudcat before (one developed into a discussion of fries!), and rather than clutter up this St.Peter's shoes thread with more on it, I'll open up an origins thread for the song in a little while. I've been looking at English and Scottish sources and I'll see if I can get some of the American ones too).

Mick

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 11:40 AM

I think it was the sleeve notes to the Tim Hart and Maddie Prior Folk Songs Of Olde England album that made the connection to King Henry V111's round face . I always thought that the lines meant dressed up in St Peter's shoes i.e. Henry pretending to be the pope .

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 11:24 AM

Is not a clout that which you cast when May, or possibly the may, be out.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 08:47 AM

Dave

Here's where some of the verses appear:

Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia - 1609

Martin said to his man - Fill thou the cup and I the can
I see a sheepe shering come - And a cuckold blow his horne
I see a man in the moone - Clowting of St.Peter's shoone
I see a hare chase a hound - Twenty miles above the ground
I see a goose ring a hog - And a snayle that did bite a dog
I see a mouse catch the cat - And the cheese to eate the rat


Stevenson - Choice Scottish Ballads - 1823-1844

I saw the man in the moon - Driving tackets in his shoon
I saw a sparrow draw a harrow - Up the Bow and down the Narrow
I saw a wran kill a man - Wi' a braidsword in his han'
I saw a sheep shearing corn - Wi' a heuck about his horn
I saw a puggie wearing boots - And he had but shachled cutes
I saw a ram wade a dam - Wi' a mill-stane in his han'
I saw a louse chace a mouse - Out the door, and round the house
I saw a sow sewing silk - And the cat was kirning milk
I saw a dog show a horse - Wi' the hammer in his a--e
I saw an eel chase the deil - Round about the spinning wheel


Lots of verses have been improvised in modern times I think, though I thought I'd seen the milking a bull verse somewhere earlier. I'll see if I can find it.


Mick

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Max Johnson
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 07:04 AM

Although 'clout' can mean 'patch', I have always taken 'Clouting of St Peter's shoon' to mean dancing in them. There's a Northern expression 'To clout tha clogs'. Will any Northern terpsichorean concur?

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 05:51 AM

and a 'clout yed' is a cloth head. Just like some... :-)

Who adds other verses BTW

I saw a maid milk a bull - Every stroke a bucket full

I saw (whover) buy I round - Saw the folk club turn it down

I saw myself remember a song - saw er, da-da-da-da-da-da-da

And so on.

DtG

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 12:36 AM

'Clouting' means 'patching' ~~ originally with a patch of cloth, tho here obviously, as a later analogous development of the word, with a leather patch. 'Clout" is a variant of 'cloth', especially to mean a piece of cloth used for a specific purpose, as here for a patch. The term 'dishclout' for 'dishcloth', tho now a bit old-fashioned, is still probably at least semi-current and certainly not incomprehensible.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 09:54 PM

Incidentally Joe, you can buy your own Shoes of the Fisherman.

Mick

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 09:15 PM

Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia (1609, and I think the earliest we have). Has:

  I see a man in the moone
  Clowting of St.Peter's shoone

So St.Peter seems to have been there from the start.

Mick

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 08:50 PM

Kinloch - The Ballad Book (1885) gives the same verse as Stevenson (both verses above are there - I didn't check to see if it's just a straight reprint).

Chappell - PMOT (1859 ed) has:

  I saw the man in the moon
  Clouting of St. Peter's shoon ;

Simpson, British Broadside Ballad and its Music tells us the song was registered in 1588, but no broadsides have remained.

I'm looking for the version in Pills to Purge Melancholy. (the page number given in Simpson doesn't seem to match my copy!).

Mick

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 07:58 PM

Dave

Coming as I do from the other side of the barrier that we use to keep those of a Lancastrian persuasion safely penned, I naturally can give no credence to your claim for cleaning.

Now I'm going to have to trawl through all those versions of the damned song to see what's what. (Roud lists 32, a surprising - to me - number of them from the US). I did get this one from Stevenson Choice Scottish Ballads(1823-1844, 4 vols), from The Man In The Moon:

  I saw the man in the moon,
  Driving tackets in his shoon ;


which seems to come down on the cobbling side (and self-cobbling at that - St.Peter safe in his heavenly home).

(It also contains this lovely verse:

  I saw a dog shoe a horse,
  Wi' the hammer in his a — e;

)

I shall look further. I'd like to know when/where St.Peter appeared for one thing.

Mick

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 06:13 PM

Are, there you go then. A pint of the Liffey water and you will say anything...

:D

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 05:55 PM

Guinness, by the way.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 05:48 PM

Ah, but I actually said, "as the Irish might say..." - I didn't say it was Irish.

But I'll get me coat anyway...

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 05:43 PM

Mick Pearce (MCP) you obviously haven't been reading the above closely enough!

I said before. In these parts (Gods own Lancashire where all songs originated) a clout is a cloth. So, obviously, clouting of or off makes sense in either form - Cleaning :-)

So there!

And Will - I'll have a pint of what you are on. Saying that 'man' is the Irish meaning indictaes that it is an 'Oirish song' as sung in New York and Chicago. Everyone in their right mind knows that the Irish just stole all our best songs...

DtG

(Running for the doo

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 05:42 PM

I stand corrected Mick! I have to admit to skipping through the thread quickly... The version I'd heard - ages ago - sounded like "clouting off"!

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 05:36 PM

Will - you obviously haven't been reading the above closely enough! Clouting just means mending. A clout was a patch - cloth, leather, metal and clouting meant patching.

OED gives quote from Milton:

Unknown, and like esteem'd, and the dull swain
Treads on it daily with his clouted shoon

(Comus: 634/5).


I think it's usually clouting of St.Peter's shoes.

Mick

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 04:11 PM

...followed by Jesus throwing 3 nails to the landlord and saying "Can you put me up for the night?"

:D

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 11:32 AM

Then as Jesus and Peter were staggering out the tavern door, Peter was heard to say, "Jesus, I know you can walk on water but can you walk on this much wine?"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: AML
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 08:37 AM

Well, I've been lurking on Mudcat long enough, so hello to everyone and I hope I can add something useful to the discussion in my debut posting.

As far as the Grey Funnel Line goes, it does indeed make perfect sense if you think about the verse as a whole.

Every time I gaze behind the screws
Makes me long for St Peter's shoes
I'd walk on down that silver lane
And take my love in my arms again

When I first started learning this song I had no idea what this verse was about, until I remembered how my Dad -- who spent 10 years in the Merchant Navy -- used to refer to the propellers as the 'screws'. So 'gazing behind the screws' means standing in the stern and looking back the way they have come. The 'screws' churn up the water, leaving a long white wake ('that silver lane') that leads back to port. So he longs to be able to walk along it, like St Peter walking on water, all the way home to his beloved.

It makes perfect sense to me now.


Amanda

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 07:22 AM

The song "Who's the fool now" is a later reading of the Scots phrase "Who's fou now" - 'fou' meaning drunk. The whole song is a nonsense song, with nonsense images arising from the drunkenness of Martin and his 'man' - his buddy. As the Irish might say when a mutual friend enters a pub, "Ah, here comes your man".

"Clouting off St. Peter's shoon" is a nonsense sentence, imagining the man in the moon knocking the shoes off St. Peter - and the shoes of the fisherman refers to one of the many symbols of St. Peter as the right hand man of Jesus and his earthly successor. Other symbols are the keys, etc. As other posters have rightly said, St. Peter's faith (and shoes!) were tested when he walked on the water.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 06:03 AM

The Martin song:
Dave, certainly hares don't chase hounds, but they can be imagined wanting to. Everyone knows that insects can heave parts of plants, so it is just a matter of scale. By analogy, the "clouting" action should mean something physical, absurd but not nonsense. St. Peter sitting at the Pearly Gate right above the moon (or with the moon passing underneath once every night) is a possible explanation.

Cyril Tawney's song:
His line is a simple biblical metaphor, as seen above. The question is whether he refers to some older usage. Same with the title of West's novel. One phrase, three meanings; is there a connection?

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 04:13 AM

The sailor sounds sober to me.
Not drunk, just wistful.
Melancholic not alcoholic.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:46 PM

Just my 2 pen'urth. Given that it is a song about the kind of nonsense that you spout when drunk why does it have to have a meaning? Fleas cannot heave trees. Hares don't chase hounds. The man in the moon doesn't exist. And just to add more confusion 'clouting' could also be cleaning - In this neck of the woods a clout is a cloth:-)

Has anyone mentioned who Martin and his man may be BTW? Do we assume that the 'man' is servant or master? It is a phrase that refers to both in different circumstances.

There y'are, Joe - More research to do :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:34 PM

Cyril introduced his song by remarking that there was an element of envy, comparing conditions of service between the navy and the merchant service. But only occasionally, not always.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 04:17 PM

Hi, Piff-
I'm going to combine the two threads to make it easy for people to see what's gone on before.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Archivist-

Subject: RE: Origins: St Peter's Shoes
From: banjoman
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:27 AM

St Peter walked on water - hence his shoes would enable the wearer to do likewise??

Subject: RE: Origins: St Peter's Shoes
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 04:31 AM

previous thread (above)

Subject: Origins: St Peter's Shoes
From: Piff
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 04:20 AM

Does anyone know the significance of the expression "St Peter's Shoes" which crops up in folk songs from time to time? Examples that conme to mind occur in the traditional "Martin siad to his man" and also in Cyril Tawney's "Grey Funnell line". I have the impression from the context that it might have something to do with the moon, but what? And why?

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: JeffB
Date: 31 May 11 - 01:28 PM

A "clout-shoe" is a country bumpkin, and "clout" was the old word for a piece of cloth ("Cast ne'er a clout 'til may be out" we do say in the West Country). Perhaps if you couldn't afford leather boots, you had to make do with cloth.

The phrase "to clout a shoe" also occurs in "The Yeoman's Wooing" :-

I am my father's eldest son, my mother eke does love me well / for I can bravely clout my shoon and I full well can ring a bell.

I have always assumed it meant he could look after himself, which sort of agrees with Crane Drivers post of 22nd, if Henry 8th is in fact the Man in the Moon. Our Henry was certainly a strong supporter of the Pope before they had something of a disagreement. In 1521 he got the special title of Defender of the Faith for writing an essay attacking Luther.

On the other hand, in Eric Partridge's Dictionary of Historical Slang a man in the moon is a fool.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 May 11 - 04:39 AM

Dear Rosemary ~~ Many thanks indeed for the link to the Tawney In Depth section of his website. I haven't for years read anything so fascinating as his own stories behind the composition of such faves as Cheering The Queen, Oggie Man, Sally Free & Easy, Grey Funnel Line...

Haven't seen you in years ~~ I think Fred Woods' wedding to Monica ['Nicky'] was the last time; but I retain happy memories of your and Cyril's acquaintance.

All very best regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 11 - 04:17 AM

There was a famous shipping line called The Blue Funnel Line, and maybe other colours.
It is natural that the comparison would be made in fun.
Warships are grey.

It seemed obvious to me that the shoe line referred to walking on water, and the next line confirms that anyway.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: gnomad
Date: 31 May 11 - 04:05 AM

As for the (nautical) use of the term 'funnel' the SS Great Eastern had an accident on her 1859 maiden voyage which destroyed her No 1 funnel.
A contemporary report in the Telegraph refers to repairs to her funnel, and is available online as a PDF.
I suspect that the funnel/smokestack question is one of UK terminology/US terminology rather than when did one term replace the other.

I'm pretty sure that the RN is referred to as the GFL in John Winton's 1964 novel "All the Nice Girls" as the submariner protagonist when questioned claims to be with their underwater division. Sorry but I don't have a copy to give you the exact reference.
Winton was the pen name of Lt Cdr John Pratt RN, who died aged 69 in 2001, his naval career will therefore have overlapped with that of CT. While either might have acquired the word from the other, the term being in common use seems to me a more likely scenario.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 May 11 - 03:53 AM

The Grey Funnel Line - poem! (1970)

Regards

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 May 11 - 03:47 AM

Another angle .

Regards

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 11 - 02:50 AM

Yeah, gnomad, it looks like they were all black until 1870 - but 1870 is about 40 years earlier than I imagined that the color differentiation began. Thanks.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: gnomad
Date: 31 May 11 - 02:44 AM

This page has descriptions of ship' funnel colours going back into the 1850s.

While I would discount black (& possibly buff) as being merely practical colours for the job, evidently the shipping lines were quick to recognise the potential of the funnel as an identifier.

As a ship approaches the funnel(s) are one of the earliest parts seen, and have the advantage over flags that they can be viewed from any horizontal angle. They are generally larger as well.

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 11 - 12:24 AM

OK, Martin, so you've made a believer of me with regards to "Grey Funnel Line"....well, more-or-less. I would think the term must be fairly recent. After all, how long have Royal Navy ships had funnels, and how long have those funnels been grey? When did the stacks of a ship come to be known as "funnels"? This page has a chart of steamship funnels in 1923, and this page speaks of the Blue Funnel Line in 1910 - so that takes us back at least that far. But when was it that funnels began to be used as identification for the owners of steamships?

With regards to St. Peter, my jury is still out.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 30 May 11 - 07:43 PM

The question about the authorship is now thoroughly settled. I had seen the song attributed to Tawney before, but I thought that was a mistake.

Now, Joe Offer, about the age of the phrase: I heard "the shoes of St. Peter" ("Les chaussures de Saint-Pierre", not of the Fisherman!) referred to as an old metaphor - about 1970. I did not know about the novel or the film then. So I cannot give first-hand evidence that the phrase predates 1963. Some quick googling showed nothing. I'll try to consult other experts.