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St. Peter's shoes -- what are they?
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: MartinRyan Date: 30 May 11 - 07:34 PM Joe In this case, it's not Thomas that's in doubt but (the) Andrew! Regards p.s. The only guide to Naval slang I have to hand (Jackspeak) was published in 1989 and says of "Grey Funnel Line": Traditional in-house nickname for the sea-going part of the Royal Navy and therefore a useful alternative to "the Andrew" in that respect. Also the title of a super book by Cyril Tawney containing the words of many matelot ditties The author knew wherof he spoke. Regards |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Joe_F Date: 30 May 11 - 06:51 PM "Grey Funnel Line" does appear in the collection _Grey Funnel Lines_, but as a frontispiece. It is by Tawney; the rest of the songs in the collection are not. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Joe Offer Date: 30 May 11 - 06:13 PM Well, I gotta say I'm not satisfied yet. The 1963 Morris West novel titled The Shoes of the Fisherman seems to be what made "The Shoes of the Fisherman" a common term to describe the office of Pope. Grishka says Morris West didn't coin the phrase - but how do you know that, Grishka? I can't find any reference to "shoes of the fisherman" or "St. Peter's Shoon" that predates Morris West. And what about the terms "Jesus boots" and "water walkers" to refer to sandals? They were common terms in the 1960s, but I can't find any reference to those terms before that. So, could it be that what we have here is a case of reverse folklore, manufacturing the origins of a term that actually came from a 1963 novel? Early references to St. Peter use keys as a symbol of Peter, not shoes. This refers to the Matthew 16:19, where Jesus tells Peter he will give Peter to the kingdom of heaven - and that probably leads to the image of Peter as keeper of the pearly gates (and the pearly gates reference is an obscure passage in the Book of Revelation). As has been said above, Peter wasn't very successful at walking on water, so his shoes wouldn't be worth much for that purpose. I'm guessing the reference is tied to the idiom "filling his shoes," meaning to match up to the heroic performance of a predecessor. ....and as long as I'm bing a "doubting Thomas," do we have evidence that the term "Grey Funnel Lines" was in use before Cyril Tawney wrote his song? Could it be that Tawney coined the term? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: GUEST,Rosemary Tawney Date: 30 May 11 - 04:11 PM Thank you, Martin, I'm glad that's settled. Grishka -I suspected that you may have been confused about the authorship of GFL, but had not time to read through the entire thread, so I didn't comment. You may like to read Cyril's extended notes to "The Grey Funnel Line" on the 'Tawney in Depth' page of his website: Click here Rosemary |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 30 May 11 - 01:27 PM I see, thanks for the clarification, Martin. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: MartinRyan Date: 30 May 11 - 11:52 AM CT claims to have collected the songs from Navymen Wellll...... "Grey Funnel Line" is Royal Navy slang for the Royal Navy. "The Grey Funnel Line" is a song written by Cyril Tawney "Grey Funnel Lines" is a book of navy songs collected by the same Cyril Tawney. It does not include the song, naturally. Regards |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 30 May 11 - 11:44 AM Rosemary, interesting point indeed. A Bible scholar is not required (all we need to know can be read in gargoyle's post), rather a scholar on the usage of metaphors in the - presumed - early 20th century. Needless to say I am neither. (Google is my scholarship, but please don't tell anyone.) CT claims to have collected the songs from Navymen, the authors' names being either unknown or suppressed for whatever reason. If this is the truth, he would not change the lyrics simply because he knows better about the stereotyped metaphor. If he wrote the songs himself, he might have used a camouflage - similar examples exist galore. But it is certainly possible as well, and by no means rare, that the author is not a scholar on his own denomination either. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: GUEST,Rosemary Tawney Date: 30 May 11 - 09:51 AM I thought I had replied to this a few months ago, but must have done something wrong when sending the message, so here goes again: Cyril was referring to the Bible story that St. Peter walked on water, though he words he wrote were "old Peter's shoes". I assume that "walk on down that silver lane" means that the sailor would walk in the wake of the ship to get back to his loved one. Grishka - not being a biblical scholar of any persuasion I can't comment on that aspect, but Cyril was brought up as a Roman Catholic. Rosemary |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 23 May 11 - 07:02 AM Cobbling or clouting - no water is involved ;-). Cobbling means repairing, so CJB's version does not apply to Henry VIII. As for the shoes of the fisherman, Morris West's eponymous bestselling novel 1963 and the film starring Anthony Quinn should be mentioned. West did not coin the phrase, but helped it become widely known in this special wording. "Grey Funnel Line" is from Cyril Tawney's collection. It is a work of individual poetry, although the author is not mentioned. We may think of a British Navyman of Anglican or Methodist confession, who knows his Bible. Either he was unfamiliar with Roman terminology and misunderstood that metaphor, or he recaptured it on purpose. Anyway, it seems an individual act to me, not an alternative folk tradition as Joe assumed back in '00. And it's not about piety here, just poetry. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: GUEST,CJB Date: 22 May 11 - 05:11 PM Martin Said To His Man / Who's A Fool Now I saw the man in the moon Fie man Fie! I saw the man in the moon Who's the fool now? I saw the man in the moon A cobbling of St Peter's shoone Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now? |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 22 May 11 - 05:00 PM "Grey Funnel Line" is about a homesick sailor: Every time I gaze behind the screws- means of course: I wish I could walk on water (or, preferably, fly like Noah's dove - in the previous verse). However, "St. Peter's shoes" is a common journalists' metaphor for the papacy worldwide ("shoes of the Fisherman" is more metaphorical still, but may not be understood by some readers). Example, googled at random: "Les chaussures de Saint-Pierre sont-elles trop grandes pour ce Pape?" As for the "Martin", I am as innocent as Megan. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Megan L Date: 22 May 11 - 10:38 AM ah sweet innocence i always took the moon cloutin st peters shoon fairly literally that the moon was so high in the sky that it clouted or skelped (ie bumped into) st peters shoes as he stood at the pearly gates. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Crane Driver Date: 22 May 11 - 08:11 AM I was led to understand, regarding the 'Martin said' verse, that the Man in the Moon represents Henry 8th (from his round face, presumably) and his 'clouting (ie mending) of St Peter's shoon' refers to him patching up his differences with Rome, about as likely as the other things Martin sees when drunk. The verse certainly goes back to Elizabethan times (it is in one of Ravenscroft's books of 'old songs' published before 1610) and any dig at King Henry would have to be obscure. At least the explanation makes sense. Andrew |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Haruo Date: 21 May 11 - 09:31 PM And then be sure to listen to Grey Flannel Line... lest piety will in the end. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: GUEST,leendee2 Date: 21 May 11 - 08:50 PM the internet is amazing. I am so happy that in two clicks I have the answer to St. Peter's shoes. Thank you you old salts and biblical scholars! The Gawler Sisters sing such a beautiful version of Grey Funnel Line on their album "Home Again, Home Again". Listen to it if you can! |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Abby Sale Date: 13 Jan 00 - 02:18 PM Gargoyle gives the actual reference, so there you are. But Mark - if Peter walked the water, his shoes would have gotten a real mess. No wonder Martin saw the man in the moon "clouting up St. Peter's shoon"?
Not to forget this is a nonsense song & anything can go into it.
I like it. It's one of the few songs anyone has ever requested me to sing again. This version is a Scottishism of an English corruption of a Scottish song. You can tell this from the refrain (=title) which, in older Scots versions is: "Wha's fu' the noo." Now it makes sense - a drinking song.
BTW, I've never heard the USian version, "Hurray! Lie." Might anyone know of a midi or other clip of it?
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Jan 00 - 03:37 AM I spent 8 years in a Catholic seminary in the 1960's, until I ended that career when I discovered the opposite sex. We usually referred to sandals as "water walkers" or sometimes "Jesus boots" - but this was a fairly irreverent seminary that I attended.... Gargoyle's water-walking reference seems to be the appropriate one for the "Grey Funnel Line" reference. Note that the shoes failed when Peter lost faith. "Shoes of the fisherman" is a term referring to the pope, who is supposed to be successor to St. Peter the fisherman. Jesus appointed his closest disciples (the "12 apostles") to be "fishers of men" (Matthew 4:19 and Mark 1:17). I vaguely remember some pious story about the shoes of Peter. I suppose somebody somewhere found the "actual shoes that Peter wore," assuming Peter wore as many shoes as Imeelda Marcos did. Another thing I learned in my irreverent seminary is that you could build a house with all the slivers of the "true cross" (the cross on which Jesus was crucified). But from a folk music poerspective, it appears that at one time, "St. Peter's shoes" was a common enough term that it had a meaning that was easily understood - I'm guessing that meaning had something to do with the ability to walk on water. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 13 Jan 00 - 01:39 AM In the Olde revised sailors version of the Bible, Jesus shouts at Peter, as he hauls him up..Come back aloft O Ye of little brain, when are ye going to learn to watch for the stepping stones? And in the boat the other sailors said, Peter, Truly you are a silly sod. Here endeth the lesson. Yours, Aye men. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Sandy Paton Date: 13 Jan 00 - 01:26 AM Thank you, Gargoyle. I knew someone out there would locate the passage I remembered from my misspent youth. Doesn't that, together with the posts from our nautical friends, pretty well answer the initial question? Sandy |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: _gargoyle Date: 13 Jan 00 - 01:03 AM New International Version translation (NIV)Mathew 14:
22Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd.
The beginning of Mathew chapter 14 deals with King Herod and naturally leads to the line in Herod's song "prove to me that you're no fool, walk across my swimming pool", from Jesus Christ Superstar |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Mikal Date: 13 Jan 00 - 12:40 AM Okay, the copy I have has "filling up St. Peter's shoon" as well. Seing as how the Man in the moon would indicate insanity, (i.e. 'looney', moonstruck), It just may be a backhanded slap at the pope, saying a madman was filling the shoes. However, the wife dissagrees. She maintains that the line indicates a skin boat, or small dingy. The reference is that she says the small boats were called St. Peter's shoes. Now I am really confused. Still, I cannot find any evidence her story is correct. Having said that, I may be sleeping on the couch tonight! Mikal |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 12 Jan 00 - 10:35 PM Some rude and crude sailor's would say get your "Jesus Boots on" (my usual expression)just before a storm or a fight, in case you had to abandon ship. (to walk home on water) Some captains and sailors would object to the blasphemy, tempting fate, so it was toned down to St. Peters shoes. Alternately, it could mean deciding ones fate (and shipmates) at the gate, so to speak. I'm so bad I'd have to hold my breath until I hit bottom, and then run like hell for the nearest shore. Someone should ask my Guru, Cyril Tawney (Ye Olde Ancient Submariner Spanner Wanker) tell him an Old Raleigh boy asked after him if you do. Oh, I'm a lean and unwashed Tiffy, I come up from Plymouth town. I can fix it in a jiffy, if you'll hand that spanner down...... |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: MMario Date: 12 Jan 00 - 02:37 PM yup - simon peter walked on water....but he started to sink first! I always took the verse in "Martin said to his man" to be nonsense, as are most of the other verses....for the "man in the moon" to show any kind of disrespect for the man who was probably the most powerful man alive at the time the song originated (the pope) |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 12 Jan 00 - 05:18 AM Eugh, the thought of that nice man in the moon "blowing chunks"..... eugh! I suppose that is how asteroids are made..... And it was Peter walking on the water, going by his other name of Simon.. LTS |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: micca Date: 12 Jan 00 - 05:13 AM When I was at sea, a Crusted old salt used to use the phrase when someone upset him, in the form" I wish I had St Peters shoes" why " I'd walk ashore and get away from the stupid f***er on the bridge, and get drunk" especially if we were anchored off for a few days waiting for a berth, a very frustrating time, you could often see the pub but it was out of reach, and it was a "dry" ship too. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Barbara Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:35 AM This is conjecture, Mark, but I heard that verse sung "Filling up Saint Peter's shoon" too, and to borrow a more modern phrase from my 13 yr old, I always assumed it meant the Man in the Moon was blowing chunks on/in St. Peter's shoon. Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Mark Cohen Date: 11 Jan 00 - 10:49 PM Yes, Abby, I did realize after posting that it makes sense to consider the other half of the verse. And I think that explanation makes sense. Except, and pardon my inept theology, I'm just a Jewish kid from Philly, but I didn't think it was Peter that walked on the water, I thought it was the other guy. Also, why would Martin have said he saw the man in the moon "clouting on St. Peter's shoon"? Come on, 'catters, there's got to be someone out there who knows the skinny. |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Abby Sale Date: 11 Jan 00 - 08:31 AM I had asked this at r.m.folk a while back & was reasonably answered that the verse is taken as a whole... Every time I gaze behind the screws Makes me long for St Peter's shoes I'd walk on down that silver lane And take my love in my arms again If he had Peter's ability to walk on water, he could walk the moon-flourescing wake of the ship back to home. The wish comes up repetedly in the song. (He didn't like the navy, it seems. Well, that's just the song narrator - Cyril, himself, hated it.) |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:56 AM Don't know about the shoes, the explanaition about the Pope's slippers sounds feasible at least, but I do know that St Peter's finger, which features in at least one other song, (sorry, it's been driving me spare trying to remember which one) and about 6 different pubs in the UK called that. It comes from the latin St Peter ad vincular, anglisised to St Peter's vincular, which in turn became St Peter's vinger, or finger.... often called St Peter's digit..... Wanting to be in someones shoes is taken as a meaning you wish you were them, so if you wished you were in Peter's shoes, I guess it means you wish you were in heaven, at the pearly gates... LTS |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Mikal Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:36 AM Uh, the slippers worn by the Pope are reffered to as the "shoes of the Fisherman" (Peter). It is assumed he is the physical replacement for the Apostle, and therefore wearing the shoes of Peter. As to the songs...I am unfamiliar with them. Let me play catch-up here... Mikal
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Sandy Paton Date: 11 Jan 00 - 12:04 AM Will some of you Bible scholars out there enlighten us? I always assumed that Cyril Tawney was referring to the act of faith that enabled Peter to walk on the water. Guess it's been too long since this lad went to Sunday School! All I can recall now is the admonition: "Walk on the rocks, dummy!" Sandy |
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Subject: RE: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Hagbardr Date: 10 Jan 00 - 11:52 PM Well, a few years back I remember that sandals called Air Jesus's were in fashion and I'd assume St. Peter's shoes would be something similar. Hagbard |
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Subject: St. Peter's shoes -- what are they? From: Mark Cohen Date: 10 Jan 00 - 11:08 PM There are two very different songs with a similar reference that I don't recognize. In Cyril Tawney's "Grey Funnel Line": "Every time I gaze behind the screws/Makes me long for old Peter's shoes" In "Martin Said To His Man": "I saw the man in the moon/clouting on St. Peter's shoon" Is it a meteorological phenomenon? a navigational aid? a meaningless coincidence? Can somebody please enlighten me? Mahalo (thanks), and aloha Mark |
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