What does 'modal' really mean?

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 10:04 AM

Yo Okiemockbird--I love the link! (I'm trying to sneak a peek at it here at work!). And Sam, just a little thread creep here, if I were to try to help my son learn to play the guitar (and I don't play myself so have told him to get a teacher)...should a beginner and non-musician strum chords, pick a melody line or both. I always thought a guitar player formed a chord and picked melody notes and strummed while in that position.

Mary

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 09:30 AM

Here is an on-line primer of music theory. It is geared to Jazz, but some of the theory looks quite general.

T.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Sam Hudson
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 07:48 AM

I can't help with musical theory, but I've been in a number of guitar workshops where the term 'modal' has been used to indicate a tuning, or chordal arrangement, which avoids the third - i.e. doesn't sound overtly major or minor. I've no idea how this fits with real musical theory but it's a useful notion in practice. If our putative fiddle player above whispers to me in a session that a tune is 'modal' then I'll know that DADGAD tuning will be safe (if predictable!) most of the time. With a little help from the capo, of course...

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 07:10 AM

Thanks John, you're getting at the answer to the question I keep having trouble articulating. I need to hear midi files that include harmony to hear the chords that are in various modes. I've listened to many tunes in the DT, even used the ABC program, listened to many of Bruce's scarce songs (and too many are unbeknownst to me), and Jack's songs that illustrate the various modes. But my first problem is that I'm just not familiar with many of these songs. The second problem is that I'm trying to figure out if songs written in modal form also follow I, IV, V7 patterns (without the 7 in the V7). I think you just answered that, so I'm anxious to hear your midis. My only other question (at this time) has to do with chord prgression patterns. Since I couldn't find my music books last night, this is purely from memory. I remember something about the circle of fifths superimposed on a clock face, and the chord progression of many simple tunes is analogous to the clock hand occillating on both sides of 12 o'clock (or the tonic). The other example is John Denver's music which often has a linear chord progression. Does this translate to modal music? Are there "patterns" seen in the various modes? Do certain songs of a time period or culture use various patterns more often? I think someone said something about Appalachian music often being pentatonic. These are the topics that interest me.

Thanks again. I'm printing out this thread (and Bruce's and Jack's info) to take to work with me today. Just hope my boss/husband doesn't see me sneaking a read!

Mary

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 12:44 AM

Ok here's my strawman - tear it down if you will.

When a fiddle player leans over to the guitarist and says "This tune is Modal in G" this to me is a sign that instead of a normal pattern that may have the chords G, C , D7 and maybe others, that the guitarist will typically alternate chords between G and F plus a few others. While it may not occur with EVERY instance during the tune the F# notes will be flattened to F most of the time.

The type of modality is very easy to pick up once you know what you're listening to. One of the fun things to do with this form of modality is to mofify existing tunes to give them new life. For example Rakes of Mellow is a great tune that players of all levels of competence can play quite nicely. After playing it a couple of times through in G Major you can kick some new life into it by changing most of the F# notes to F (make it modal), then revert to G Major for the finale. There's lots more I could add but I'll try and post a Midi example in the nexr 12 hours.

You can also take a familiar tune like Soldier's Joy (Irish Version) make no changes to the melody line, but get the guitarist and bass players to substiute F chords for (some) D7 chords. I work this out later. Regards, John

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 08:10 PM

If you search for modes in the Forum Search you will discover a humungous thread on this subject. It went on for months. Good too.yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From:
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 06:28 PM

What 8 note octave are you refering to?

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 06:22 PM

Good question. Perhaps a melody which avoids the use of one or more of the customary eight notes in the octave. Example - the Lykewake dirge or the soulcake (or solecake) chant. Any better ideas? This is really one for the theoreticians.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: _gargoyle
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 06:11 PM

Would "Raggle Taggle Gypsies".....(key of Cminor)with its "odd sounding" switch at and the other sang low be an example of modal?

The small research into the Renaissance has opened a whole new area of tone for me, alot to learn.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 05:08 PM

Cromwell's "New Modal Army" had some interesting tunes I hear.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 05:02 PM

"Modal"--with no specification of which mode is meant--is damn near as void of semantic content as is the word "folkmusic". It's most often used as a synonym for "odd-sounding". Grumph.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 03:44 PM

There are numerous examples of Scots modal tunes, heptatonic, hexatonic, and pentatonic in the 'illustrated tutorial' on Jack Campin's website. There also many such indexed in the Irish Tune Index on my website (and you can click on Jack Campin's from my home page or go directly to his file from my modes file.) Many of these are tune for known songs.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 02:39 PM

Any examples of familiar songs that make use of dorian, aeolian, phrygian, ionian modalities? Might help me and others to grasp the concept.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 02:33 PM

Being no formal scholar of such things, these comments are being simply tossed into the ring. Technically ionian and aeolian scales are modal scales in that they relate back to the scales which were labeled as modes when the church modes were established and labeled in the so-called Middle Ages. Both are seven tone scales as are the other five modes. The ionian mode or scale became the basis for the contemporary major scale which is no longer really considered a diatonic scale and the aeolian mode has become the basis of what is referred to the minor scale. The term modal is generally applied to a scale or a melody line which seems a little odd to the ear conditioned by major and minor scales.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:48 PM

Clare, The common meaning of "modal" for a one-line melody seems to be: something in the dorian, myxolydian, phrygian, locrian, or any other tonality other than aeolian and ionian. Of course the aeolian and ionian scales are scales like any other, so some word other than "modal" to refer to melodies-neither-aeolian-nor-ionian would be more logically consistent.

I am less certain of the meaning of "modal" when it is used to refer to harmonized music. My guess would be that it refers to techniques of harmonization which avoid the V-7 chord, or which avoid using in the harmony any note not in the scale of the melody. But that's just a guess.

T.

Subject: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: clare s
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 01:29 PM

This is something that has worried me for a while.

I think that I have a decent understanding of modal theory, and can understand why a certain tune is considered 'dorian' 'phrygian' or whatever.

What I find harder to understand is the way in which 'modal' seems to have become a definition of a certain type of music.

An ionian tune (one that uses the standard major scale) is never described as being modal.

Tunes based on the aeolian mode (natural minor) are similarly not described as being modal.

Blues songs which use a flattened 7th (Mixolydian mode) aren't generally described as being modal either.

Given the above, can anyone explain what is really meant by 'modal' music? Has it simply become a description of the Dorian mode?

Many thanks

Clare