folk song art song

Subject: Folk song Art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:08 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01gg7dm BBCRadio4 extra

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:14 PM

An Opera singer can sing a folk song,and it is still a folk song as long as they do not sing it in an operatic way.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:34 PM

Tim Healy thinks kathleen ferrier version of" blow the wind southerly is ok" HILARIOUS.
Then logically its ok for a tradtional style singer, to sing opera in a trad style, trouble is Opera audiences are not that tolerant. so why should we tolerate Peter Pears murdering trad folk songs

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:38 PM

My God some very ignorant comments from some of the pseuds taking part

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:45 PM

Thanks for the heads up, Dick. I enjoyed listening.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 06:17 PM

Odetta Holmes and Rhiannon Giddens both trained in singing for opera (Rhiannon at a more advanced level than Odetta) but would sing folk songs like folk songs. Rhiannon Giddens is especially versatile and sings in various styles. So classical training doesn't necessarily prevent singers from performing in a more natural style if they choose to do so. Sandman also says that, but didn't give any examples.

One positive side of singing songs in an "unauthentic" style, whether it be art song or pop song, could be that some listeners will go search out the roots of the song and learn more about folk music.

I was thinking this week about folk song and art song, but in a different context than classical music. I had lyrics for a waulking song - a work song for fulling the tweed - and was looking for a recording. The first recordings I found sounded nothing like a waulking song. Would you think that track 19 on
https://archive.org/details/GaelicSongsOfScotland-WomenAtWorkInTheWesternIsles/ is the same song as Alasdair Caplin - Sheòl am bàta ?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 08:14 AM

I try not to be critical of other styles. Like everybody else I know what I like and I know what makes me cringe, but I wouldn't impose my views on anyone else or expect anyone else to have the same opinions. My pet hate is almost every singer in the commercial world adopting an American accent. BUT, that seems to be the norm and it's made an awful lot of people popular and rich. I'm definitely in a very small minority. I find it quite flattering that a trained opera singer would want to (and find a market for) singing our traditional songs.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 06:56 PM

The Turkish folksinger Ruhi Su had a career path in some ways like Rhiannon Giddens. He started out with Western opera - he had a powerful baritone voice that should have got him an international career, but he was blacklisted by the Turkish government for being a Communist. Turkish art music was similarly state-regulated, and he seems never to have tried it, or anything related to it (there are popularized classical genres he could have worked in, but didn't).

Instead he went for the traditional bardic ("ozan") folk music most closely associated with the Alevi mystical/Sufi/secularist minority who have been the core of the Turkish left for the last century. He became a superb saz player and got the idiom spot on, though you can always hear the operatic-professional control in his voice. Musically this was a good choice of direction in that the modal system of Turkish folk is more similar to Western folk and art music than it is to the Ottoman art music that says "classical" to the Turks - it's mostly in the Dorian mode with none of the microtonal modulation the art music tradition goes in for.

One thing he didn't try was getting dialect right - he sings everything in the Istanbul dialect you'd hear on the news. (Not sure if Rhiannon Giddens makes much effort in that direction either?) The upshot is that his songs are great learning material for the standard language.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 08:47 AM

relevant discussion also at https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=169980 "What is 'folk' fiortura?"

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 10:37 AM

Folk songs and Art song and music are branches of the same tree. I think the argument is about style. Personally I don't mind Peter Pears vocals as much as the accompaniment, especially that by Julian Bream.
One of my pet hates is self indulgent over arrangement of folk songs, or any other musical medium for that matter. I loath 'Land of hope and Glory' for that same reason. Were there an acknowledgement by the Art music world, that the Traditional style of singing Folk songs is just as valid as Operatic vocalisation, I think we would not be so polarised. Meanwhile all pigs are fuelled up and ready to fly.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 10:44 AM

ok why trill your rs when singning if you dont do it normal speech, singers who cannot sing rs but only as double us are advisedto look carefully at lyrics . i remember a floor singer called orville who chose a song which mentioned his brother was in the tipperary ranks,which came out bwother in the tipewaway wanks

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Charmion
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 11:24 AM

Sandman, I speak English with a fairly strong eastern Canadian accent, in which the R sound is produced at the back of the mouth in a very in-your-face fashion. When singing, I often roll initial Rs on the tip of my tongue to ensure that the rest of the song does not vanish behind a noise appropriate only for Talk Like A Pirate Day.

I have an old tape recording of myself singing a Bach aria in German. That Carleton County snarl pops out of the text like a rake handle out of the grass. “Wachet auf! rrrrrruft uns die Stimme … “

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 12:25 PM

do what you like, if you are singing classical music it is probably stylistically acceptable, but as far as i an concerned and what i like ,its crap, peter pears is crap and britten is absolutely clueless. these opera singers and classical singers are the first to criticse untrained singers singing classical music .i am returning the compliment, peter pears sound alikes go away and listen to tradtional unaccompanied styles.and show some respect,
patronising twats, would they treat jazz styles singing in the same way

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 12:32 PM

Two wrongs don't make a right, Dick. Each to their own and you to your opinion. I doubt if the majority of art song singers are even aware that our music exists. It comes from a different place and has charms all of its own. The beauty of our music is it is accessible to anybody at any time.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 02:17 PM

Well if the majority of art song listeners bothered to research our music they might start learning about style, it is about respect for the material
ALL music is accessible to everyone if you want to sing opera you sing in an operatic style, etc, if you want to sing jazz sing jazz styles.AND SO ON

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 02:40 PM

i remember Yehudi Menuin trying to play ITM.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 03:18 PM

Another positive advantage of a trained singer singing a trad song in a non-trad arrangement is that with a little luck it comes out beautiful in its own right.

Mary O'Hara, Kenneth McKellar, or Sissel Kyrkjeb? (just for example) have not deprived the world of even one traditional song by
singing them in a formal way.

Many others have taken flak for being somewhere in between.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 04:10 PM

Another negative disadvantage of a trained singer singing a trad song in a non trad style is that it comes out hideous in its own right. Peter Pears.Mary O'Hara, Kenneth McKellar
all a matter of opinion

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 05:32 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0Ce7BaOBhA

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 06:04 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD9SBsv2yx4 this is the way to fecking do it

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 06:15 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dyUsXgL7ow anne briggs

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 06:23 PM

"A matter of opinion" like nearly everything else on this site.

But it's an objective fact that the singers I mentioned (or any that might be named, including Celtic Woman) haven't deprived us of a single traditional song or performance.

But they *have* brought enjoyment to millions who wouldn't think of listening for two minutes to most trad singers.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 07:33 PM

Dick you're behaving as if Art singers and music are a threat to the tradition in some way. Traditional folk songs are pretty robust, and will outlive us all. Yes there is a lot musical snobbery in music schools. Try asking Cohen from Grannies about suffering from that, but it really is not going to do any lasting damage to the songs, any more than some pretty awful attempts at singing Traditional songs in Folk Clubs that could not be further away from the art of the Traditional singer. Peter Pears was a great singer, just not a great folk singer. Nobody dies.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 07:37 PM

I really do like the sound of this rendition of U Stambolu na Bosforu (Istanbul on the Bosphorus)

It is an old song
I can't say I am crazy about the lyrics, but I do like this art song performance. It seems I have different tastes when it comes to eastern music.

lyrics and translation
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/u-stambolu-na-bosforu-istanbul-bosphorus.html

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Helen
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 08:12 PM

Thanks Felipa. That's beautiful.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 09:05 PM

Thanks for that. The singing style is quite like the way I could imagine my Bosnian pal here doing it - I'll ask.

Sevdalinka isn't really a folk genre. It's Ottoman art music turned into pub and theatre entertainment. Classical technique and feeling is just fine for it. Look up the singer Amira for another example, or people like Himzo Polovina back in its golden age (psychiatrist in his day job, pro singer by night).

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 09:17 PM

...and, notice that behind the fioriture, the core melody is "Dona Dona", more or less? Which is also a non-folk theatre song. There has to be a link somewhere.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:14 AM

Pears was great singer,yur oinion not mine a great technician yes, but in my opinion an awful singer, all opinion or taste, but technique is different and is not just a matter of opinion.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:45 AM

WoulD Pears have tried to sing Jazz?Ido not think he did. Then why does ho not show the same respect for tradtional music. No because he was a classical singer he thought he could sing everything, such arrogance REGARDLESS OF ACCEPTED STYLES what would he be like singing the blues, and as for Britten

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:04 AM

But it's an objective fact that the singers I mentioned (or any that might be named, including Celtic Woman) haven't deprived us of a single traditional song or performanc QUOTE
just because a performer has not deprived us of a performance, that is not always a plus. if i want to hear singing i want it to be perfomed well, and that is not just a matter of opinion. you seem to be putting forward an argument that tradtional song is better performed than not perfomed. I DO NOT AGREE.
I am not talking about style I do not want to hear any music[ including classical music jazz music traditional music, performed if it is going to be sung out of tune., so your argument is flawed.
Martin Carthy said that the only way you cam harm tradtional songs is by not singing them, absolute bollcks.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:11 AM

Does anyone ever say the only harm you can do a classical song or a jazz song is to not sing it? Britney Spears where are you

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:15 AM

florence foster jenkins murdring classical song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcs9yJjVecs

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:21 AM

Could you explain to me how a performance that is poor, or not to your taste or shows lack of respect, bridges musical mediums, is sung by an allegedly arrogant singer or is complete whatever, actually harms the tradition?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 05:25 AM

a performance that is poor harms the interpretation and perfomance of the song.
no one here SO FAR has said that it harms the tradition, what i am saying is that it harms my enjoyment and other peoples enjoyment, as does a poor performance of any music.
yes and i do maintain that classical performers who think they can sing tradtional   songs and that is it acceptable to sing them in a classical style are arrogant, they have not botherd to go to the roots of the music and absorb styles
I would accept it if a classical singer criticsed me for singing opera in a non opertic style.
I would accept criticism from a jazz singer if i sang a jazz song in the way i would sing a tradtional song.
I have noticed in the past on this forum people make derogatory remarks about finger in the ear singers and tradtional songs based upon poor perfomance.
So now I am going to say poor performance can damage any musical genre, albeit it in a temporary manner, but it can put some people off for a long time., so yes it[ POOR PERFOMANCE can harm any music
these are my last words on the matter, good day to you Mr Dow.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 05:38 AM

So no actual evidence then? Oh well, if we're not talking I'll go and enjoy the weather.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 11:34 AM

When I went to Folk clubs in the sixties and sevnties they were full, no one sang from crib sheets, floor singers generally were of a higher standard and bothered to make an effort to learn their words and attempted to maintain a certain standard of performance.
i have been questioned in the last two days about evidence to support the following statements
"So now I am going to say poor performance can damage any musical genre, albeit it in a temporary manner, but it can put some people off for a long time., so yes it[ POOR PERFOMANCE can harm any music"
"a performance that is poor harms the interpretation and perfomance of the song."
the evidence is clear to me, people are voting with their feet. relatively empty venues,PARTLY due to poor performance of floor singers who use crib sheets., who often have not practised with their crib sheets
I will make myself clear, I am not attempting to stop anyone from singing or performing, but i am pointing out evidence of how poor perfomance damages the music and its enjoyment., and puts off paying customers
Furthermore my experience has taught me that people are attracted to full venues but not third or half empty or if you like half full ones, that good floor singers avoid venues where the majority of singers have not practised, and that guest performers like to perform to full houses not to themselves.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:20 PM

I would rather have continued this conversation privately but since you said "i have no evidence" when there is plenty of evidence of poor perfomances putting off potential audience, you have in effect forced me to continue.
and if we have not got venues like folk clubs to perform in, we are forced to either sing in pubs[ where people go primarily for alcohol], or sing to a few friends at home or to a dog.
and here i will quote Jim Carroll,an irish tradtional singer who he collected from said "I am so glad you came along i thought the songs would die out, or i might have to teach the dog the songs."

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:30 PM

"I am so glad you came along; I thought the songs would die out," could be an argument in favour of the art song performances of folk songs. At least someone is singing them.

Mary O'Hara's style of singing isn't my favourite, but I learned a lot of songs from her. (and I do think in some ways, timing and phrasing, she stays true to the origin of her repertoire)

Margaret Kennedy Fraser made parlour room arrangements of Gaelic songs collected in Scotland, but she also published the Gaelic texts of the songs and so produced a useful resource.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:30 PM

to quote Jim Carroll. coorectly the singer was Martin Reidy"He once said to us, "You know, I was delighted when you people started it come up and take my songs; I was so worried they were going to disappear that I tried to teach the dog to sing them"

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:53 PM

Felipa, if that is what you want fine
what i want and what i hear in ireland is a style of singing he term "sean-nós" is popularly applied to songs in English and Irish, with the style of singing that is characteristic. this is similar to the unaccompanied styles of england scotland and phil tanner of wales that is what i want, there are still plenty of people singning like that now visit cork singers club and thereare still people in the uk folk revival singning in sean nos style, we do not need peter pears

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 03:01 PM

And there have always been traditional singers all over the British Isles who DIDN'T use anything like sean nos style. Slapping it all over everything like mustard on a hot dog doesn't do anything for the tradition.

Pears did best on material Britten wrote for him. His versions of the Church Parables are unbeatable.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 03:25 PM

jack perhapsyou would be good enough to give examples of singers who did not use anything like sean nos style ,come on jack.none of them sounded like peter pears.. did they jack the style for nearly all the british isles was unaccompanied and not like PETER PEARS
I am talking about Brittens abomination of an accompaniment on waly waly

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:41 PM

I got Marjory Kennedy Fraser's first name wrong.

And why on earth does Sandman think that these parlour arrangements are what I personally want. I was just responding to the issue of preserving and passing on songs. And my examples were not entirely contemporary. M.K.F. was active in the first quarter of the 20th c. Mary O'Hara (b.1935) had a comeback in the late 1970s-1990s, but she was an important singer before the folk boom and -in terms of promoting and disseminating songs - probably bridged the gap between a time when house ceilidhs were common and the growth of singers' circles.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:49 PM

jACK , the point i was trying to make was that all unaccompanied solo singers used to some extent some degree of ornamentation some very little some quite a lot , but very very few singers was other than solo unaccompanied, but none that i can remember sounded like opera singers or peter pears.
Felipa glad to here, my apologies for misunderstanding

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 02:47 AM

if you believe, as i do, that listening to the roots of the music and absorbing styles is important in formimg ones own style, be it singing or instrumental music, then my criticisms of the style of Peter Pears singing Waly Waly for example, wouldbe that is over stated over and dramatic,because his roots are closer to the operatic style.
it is not just about stylistic use of ornamentation in the music
in Art music is stipulated and written down whether you should use a mordant or a trilll or something else, that is not the case in solo unaccompanied singing of tradtional music

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Planetluvver
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 05:24 AM

I attended a student recital which included Vaughn Williams The Roadside Fire. (Perhaps the entire song cycle was sung, I don't recall) The singer looked extremely uncomfortable and formal in his suit, starched white shirt and tie. I just could not believe he was going to convince his love to go tramping through the woods by singing about getting rained on and doing laundry.

The notion just seemed preposterous in that setting. The singer's formal appearance was so incongruous with the songs subject. I had the impression he was somewhat insane.

I offended the person I accompanied by stating my opinion. The subject just didn't seem in keeping with the formality of the venue. To be honest, I have not had a lot of exposure to "Art Songs."


I have listened to quite a bit of opera, but most of it has been in English, and what has been in English, I have still needed subtitles to understand. And often, the portrayals are of insanity, so yeah, opera works for me.

Lyrics:

I will make you brooches and toys for your delight
Of bird-song at morning and star-shine at night,
I will make a palace fit for you and me
Of green days in forests, and blue days at sea.

I will make my kitchen, and you shall keep your room,
Where white flows the river and bright blows the broom;
And you shall wash your linen and keep your body white
In rainfall at morning and dewfall at night.

And this shall be for music when no one else is near,
The fine song for singing, the rare song to hear!
That only I remember, that only you admire,
Of the broad road that stretches and the roadside fire.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 07:35 AM

planet luvver i am glad you enjoy opera, but that is not my point.99per cent opera lovers would not enjoy it if i turned up and did opera in rock and roll style or folk style,or jazz style

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 11:11 AM

I hate it when folk songs are sung in a formal style. Unfortunately the formal style can also actually be the folk style e.g. at Welsh esteidfodds, songs are judged by their adherence to specific traditional form This is almost as naueseous as the opera style.

Songs should be sung for enjoyment primarily, and as naturally as possible. There should be no such thing as competitive singing or competitive playing or competitive dancing. Unfortunately there is.

There is no need to listen to folk music being murdered when there is so much interesting material around. Just do not listen to the stuff you dont like.

Let people do what they want and listen to what they want. I challenge anyone to sing I'll Tell Me Ma in an operatic fashion anyway, or The Rattling Bog, hee hee

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 08:31 PM

This is rather like the guy who was so shocked by his neighbour appearing naked at her window that he fell off the stepladder and broke his binoculars.

Classical-style folksong treatments are a thing of the past. They served a purpose, of freeing up a space for other takes on traditional material, but if you want to hear Peter Pears, Fyodor Shalyapin, Kathleen Ferrier, Peter Dawson, John McCormack or the like, you have to put in some effort to find them. They're not on the PA at the supermarket.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 02:31 AM

Nor are Harry Cox or Pop Maynard. Since the BBC have recently produced a programme with a young operatic singer posing the questions, I would say it's a fairly current phenomenon. Just not actually all that important to the continuation (or not) of Folk culture in the UK, and not worth falling off a stepladder in despair.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

putting clips on here as i have done,of styles unrelated t0 peter pears, but connected to the roots of uk and irish trad music is imo important so that more people become aware of the stylistic roots.
that is being positive.
it has become evident to me that the uk folk revival is getting further from its roots,, it is also important to me that practising material to try and do it justice is important, no one is falling off stepladders,
   folk culture may continue but when it starts to bear little relation to its stylistic roots, is it still folk culture?, in peter pears case it is art music not folk culture.
to hear what you have collected being murdered by singers who either have no idea of style or have not practised, would that be acceptable in classical music. NO it would not, so why is it accptable for folk music, does not folk music deserve the same respect as classical music?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:58 AM

So to be clear, you are on a sort of self appointed rear guard action, confined to occasional threads on Mudcat?
If you feel so strongly, why do you not expand the argument to a wider audience? Write a book and get it published. If I can do it (three times) I'm sure you can. Get yourself on the Radio. One of my documentaries were the way I joined the BBC (God help me!). If that fails start your own podcast. If you believe so passionately then spread the word. I will be first in the queue to listen or read, and I dare say there will be many others as well.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 05:15 AM

Sorry, I'm back very briefly. I really think the decay in respect for Traditional song and dance in the UK is a worthwhile subject for a book. The subject of this thread would be the part of one chapter. It's a dragon of a subject, but I think a new perspective is overdue. I would not attempt it for the foreseeable. Go on on Dick, seriously! Sharpen your pencil. It would be a more academic update on Fred Woods 'Folk Revival' book. Blandford ISBN 0 7137 0993 6

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 11:02 AM

I   hope to keep on singing and playing music, and hopefully organising a festival., those are my only intentions,I have recntly recovered from a TIA.
I consider it impertinent patronising and condescending to suggest to anyone else that they should do anything other, than what they have proven to be reasonably competent at.
perhaps you should become a trapeze artist.
I do not consider myself anything but a member of this forum who wishes to discuss aspects of folk music on this forum.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:09 PM

So to be clear, you are on a sort of self appointed rear guard action, confined to occasional threads on Mudcat? quote, Nick Dow .
if you were to say this to my face, I could not guarantee your future as Trapeze Artist

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:38 PM

I was actually trying to be supportive, and encouraging Dick. I was attempting to suggest something that you might seriously consider, and that you might have the ability to achieve. Not be condescending or patronising. Your diatribe was well out of order. That's your lot with me I'm afraid, permanently.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 02:00 PM

A peculiar way of offering support and encourageent
So to be clear, you are on a sort of self appointed rear guard action, confined to occasional threads on Mudcat? quote, Nick Dow .

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Planetluvver
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:40 PM

Reply to The Sandman,

I wasn't responding to your post. (Is there a way to reply to particular posts in this forum? It seems to me things are just ordered chronologically.) I was just working through my own views on folk versus art song. My thoughts tend to be rather chaotic, hence perhaps also my post.

My discussion of opera was to support that it isn't just that I am adverse to formality. It is DESPITE my appreciation of opera, I found the Vaughn Williams song incongruous and preposterous to he point that I was so preoccupied that I couldn't actually listen, DESPITE my familiarity of opera. (Besides, my understanding is that it was actually an art song, not a folk song, so I cannot criticize it on the basis of being divorced from its tradition.)

I do often want to know the background of a song. I cannot say that I find it a requirement to my enjoyment of a song. (In fact, I am distressed at my newly acquired knowledge regarding the origins of Danny Boy and other familiar "Irish" songs.) I also am interested in music I am unfamiliar with to broaden my knowledge.

In conclusion, I would suppose ALL music has roots in the vernacular. My theory (with absolutely no background to support it) is that music preceded language and functioned as a social "glue." When we started pounding on logs rather than one another's heads, we could develop cooperation and culture.

And once again, I find myself trying to order the jumble of thoughts that coexist in my chaotic mind. High time I accomplished something useful!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:42 PM

Nick Dow, is a very good singer of traditional songs and a very good guitarist, some while ago I bought one of his books which was very informative

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 05:23 PM

What does the term 'art song' even mean. Art is not constrained. A song is a song. Reproduction of historical styles has some interest, but why study past songs when you can just sing and make up your own songs to your own styles and rhythmns.

Today I sang to my neighbours cat as it shaded in my garden, it is so frightened of hands because it gets mishandled by the children in the house in which it lodges. So I cannot even pet it without it having an anxiety attack.

I tried to soothe it with a quiet song that went along the lines of ," sorry cat, you're safe here, you are welcome and I will not mistreat you" The tune was whatever it happened to be at the time, it is not written down, archived, reproducable - it was just as it was then. Lost and gone forever.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 04:22 AM

Art song is a genre. It includes works by Monteverdi, Dowland, Purcell, Haydn, Schubert, Wolf, Schoenberg, Messiaen, Tippett, Kurtag... it's not defined by any technical feature but by being part of that tradition.

I might be more inclined to think someone had something to say about it if they could spell composers' names right and drop the bigoted crud about performers' dress code.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 05:56 AM

The folk & traditional singers & musicians I repect don't give a monkey's about 'genre' and suchlike pigeonholes--they just get on with it and leave the history, sources and cross-references to the academics, and that's as it should be.
We've covered this ground before, I know I'm iin a minority, but to me a song is a song & if it appeals to me, I'll sing it- simple maybe but I stand by it.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 10:34 AM

After reading this thread, I think I will give up singing, it is far to fraught. There is no chance I will attend any performances in case they are incorrect. If I catch any of my friends singing then I will cut them off.

Thanks to this thread, it has put me on the right path and it has saved me from the toxic effects of singing forever. Free at last.

My final act will be to make sure that pesky Natural Voice Practictioners network is shut-down. Who do they think they are, wearing casual clothing and singing for fun while providing a social support network. It makes me sick.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 05:54 PM

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-romantic-national-song-network-tickets-146804749959

The Romantic National Song Network Mon, 28 June 2021 18:00 – 19:00 BST

The Romantic National Song Network, funded by the Royal Society of Edinburgh, ran between 2017 and 2019. Bringing together scholars working in literature and language, musicology, history, book history, and performance history, it aimed to establish what songs were published and performed in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales during the period 1750 to 1850, and to explore how they shaped public perceptions of the different national cultures of the British Isles.

The project ultimately created an interactive website featuring a number of key song-stories and brought together a group of young singers from across the UK in a final project performance. This presentation by Professor Kirsteen McCue will talk through the formation of the network; showcasing its findings and reflecting on how projects like this can breathe life into historical song repertoire.

Speaker: Professor Kirsteen McCue (University of Glasgow)

Kirsteen McCue is Professor of Scottish Literature and Song Culture and Co -Director of the Centre for Robert Burns Studies at the University of Glasgow. She has published widely on Romantic song culture relating to work by Byron, Clare and Scott and on Burns’s songs and musical responses to Burns’s work. She is editor of James Hogg’s Songs by the Ettrick Shepherd and Hogg’s Contributions to Musical Collections and Miscellaneous Songs for the Collected Works of James Hogg (Edinburgh University Press, 2014) and her edition of Robert Burns's Songs for George Thomson, vol 4 of the new Oxford Works of Robert Burns, was published in February 2021.

The Romantic National Song Network: https://rnsn.glasgow.ac.uk/

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 01:54 AM

Thanks. Interesting ideas and more significant than some folkies would like to think.

Next elephant in the room: hymnody, which had more impact on both art music and traditional music than most people involved in either generally recognize.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:12 AM

what are those ideas,Jack?did you mean this
‘the most widespread and influential form of literary and musical expression of the day’ (2017: 1).

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:28 AM

hymnody, the only influence... i see is the copper family ,and they were exceptions, most, the vast majority of tradtional singers were unaccompanied solo.
glee singing was popular in victorian times and songs like thousands or more, originate from them probably. Folk song collectors apart from alfred wiliams did not consider glee songs, folk songs.
so folk songs   aka TRAD SONGS, as we consider them today are the result of the agenda of collectors like Sharp and Baring Gould

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:38 PM

I am gobsmacked at the apparent vendetta on Peter Pears, and to a lesser extent, Benjamin Britten: if you don't like it, Sandman, you don't have to listen to it! PP has been dead for 35 years and BB 10 years longer. They used to fill concert halls with people who liked their music! Having been brought up in Suffolk, where they lived, we did get to sing and play some of their music, including taking part in the Aldeburgh Festival: inspiring! To be fair, I didn't like BB's music on first hearing, but it grew on me: it wasn't the easiest to sing.
PP had a very wide repertoire, of which folksong was only a very small part. I hate the term "murdering" songs: he just did them his way: again I say, switch off if you don't like it! I seriously don't think it does any harm at all to the traditional genre or way of singing such songs, which WILL survive as there are plenty of people who prefer their songs sung that way. Some of the best folk songs have been thoroughly messed up by so-called folk singers who chop up the words with funky rhythms: (not talking about Nick Dow here, if he hasn't yet left the thread!)
I have lived in Scotland, the country of my birth, for the last 35 years, and to some extent, we see the same phenomenon around Burns' songs: some people insisting they must be sung in a folkie style - others who sing them operatically. Does anyone know what they actually sounded like when they were first sung in the 18th century? It's before any recordings. Again, horses for courses, it's all valid, and a matter of personal taste which way you prefer them.
And Sandman, if you've already had one TIA, maybe calm down a bit, to avert any chance of another?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 04:22 PM

you are of course entitled to your opinion.
I am very calm, but may i return your statement...maybe calm down a bit.
i am not insisting on anything, i pointed out that if i were to sing opera in a non operatic style, opera lovers would not like it, it is quite reasonable then to ask classical singers to listen to tradtional, styles and sing it in a way that is connected to its roots, that is not insisting but asking.
the same applies to yehudi menhuin , a very good classical trained violin player whose attempts to play irish trad music were musically imappropriate, however yehudi was humble enough to acknowledge his limtations when it came to playing a different genre, and to acknowledge that however good he was at his genre, he was out of his depth when it came to playing irish trad tunes.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 04:50 PM

Sir, - Another connection between the late lamented Yehudi Menuhin and music-making in this country was recalled to me recently and may also be of interest to your readers. The occasion was a request to him by Mr Vincent Strunks, an organiser of classes in traditional music in Derry, for a comment on the practice of some tutors in the Western Education and Library Board's schools music service, with the tacit support of the then director, of actively discouraging children learning music in school from also attending traditional music classes.

The comment was swift in coming, strong and to the point: "I find it unbelievable and totally unacceptable and typically bureaucratic that any child should be prohibited from following both traditional and classical teaching together. The parents are absolutely right, if they are compelled in this way to make a choice, to stay with traditional music. Traditional music is the basis of all music, and a child must begin with that.

"When I think of the incredibly rich, beautiful and heart-warming traditional music of Ireland, this attitude is enough to enrage any real music lover, but then any teacher who forces a child in this manner is probably in any case not a good music teacher, thus a double reason for the young girl to stay with traditional music. - Yours sincerely, Yehudi Menuhin."

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:15 PM

That's a good story re Vincent Strunks and "Hudi McMenamin" (it's a local joke about how Menuhin was introduced at a traditional music session). I've met some children at Comhaltas (C.C.E.) and other trad. music classes in Derry who also have classical music lessons at school, so I think the campaign to change attitudes and policies has been successful. Most of the children attending the classes are not going to enter compettions; they are encouraged to play in informatl sessions organised by the course organisers.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:19 PM

Been enjoying some lieder and art song during the Song Prize Final of Cardiff Singer of the World (BBC4) tonight. E.g., a Welsh lady singing a trad Welsh song, with embellished melody from the pianist.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:39 PM

FWIW, Pierre Boulez and Michael Tippett (neither of them what you'd think of as emissaries of folk culture) co-signed a letter protesting the British Government's attempt at the same kind of control freakery. I think they got results.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 07:02 PM

Can ppl not just sing for fun anymore ?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 09:32 PM

My first encounter with the Gaelic sean-nos about
the three Marys at the foot of the cross on Calvary,
was a recording with voice and piano, featuring
a young Maire ni Scolai,
using fully operatic classical singing technique.

My second encounter with this same song
was a recording of Joe Heaney.

I would not do without either one of them.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 03:59 AM

people do sing for fun, some get fun out of advancing their skills, few get fun out of performing badly or singing out of tune.
ITM fiddle playing is an example where classical musicians frequently do not get the styles, many of them think the music should be played as written from the page, they do not understand the totally different bowing styleS from classical music, they have good tecHnique but actually need to spend a little time listening to the different approach. and different styles
IF THEY DO NOT LISTEN AND WATCH THE DIFFERENT BOWING TECHNIQUES that is an example of their arrogance
it is a very good example of the difference between art music and folk music or classical music and ITM.
Keboeroxu , i enjoy classical music too, that is not the point at all, their is nothing wrong with having good technique ,technique is only there to help the performer do what he wants to do.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:09 AM

Iwill amend my previous post, it is sometimes arrogance and sometimes ignorance and sometimes both, that a musician thinks ITM bowing styles are exactly the same as classical music they are not, neither are tradtional singing styles the same as operatic styles or jazz styles, good technique however is useful in all music but good technique is not about over the top vibrato , rolling of rs, these are styles

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:12 AM

good technique as regards singing is about breath control,singing from the diaphragm, clear diction.
technique and style are different things entirely

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:56 AM

Thank you jiggers, yes it appears singing for fun is no more.

I used to teach English literature in another life & needed to read & analyse excellent books like 'To Kill a Mockingbird' and 'Goodbye To All That'- - at that time, this was aimed at exams of course, and found little time or inclination to read much else.
Having left teaching - 43 years ago now, I re-read many of the same books without the pressure- reading had ceased to be a chore, and became very enjoyable.
Mudcat is great for folk who wish to discuss & argue about traditional music, but it doesn't seem like much fun?

It's quite valid to discuss voice exercises, ballad-sheet origins etc, but I'd argue that in a live context, open-mindedness and a bias towards humour are essential in communicating with the FOLK, which is surely the aim of the music?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:09 AM

nothing wrong with your approach Jim, but there are many ways of presenting a perfomance, i have just been listening to an online Martin Carthy concert, no humour , but still excellent, excellent guitar playing excellent presentation, excellent communication and intersting story songs.
singing for fun is very much why i do it Jim, i chose this genre rather than pop music, not for one minute thinking i would do it to make money but because it was FUN. AND I ENJOYED THE MUSIC
FUN is also about striving to perform as well as you can that is part of communication
FUN is not about turning up with a guitar that is out of tune and NOT bothering to tune it, OR RUMMAGING THROUGH A FOLDER OF BITS OF PAPER,singing out of tune playing an out of tune guitar.
you are a good perfomer Jim, but would you enjoy playing your box if it was out of tune or if there were a couple of notes that did not sound when you pressed them or if you [for health reasons] could no longer sing in tune.
bad perfomances are not fun for anyone unless you are masochists

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:10 AM

My friend cannot play tin whistle properly, sings badly most of the time, annoys people with her pibgorn at sessions, and loves every minute of it. It provides her with a chance to perform, a social network - she gets out of the house for an evening.

she brings more than her 'music' to sessions because she has a passion for the history of music, and for instruments.

Given that she has had a mini-stroke some years back, it is a relief that she can still ruin a good tune.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:24 AM

I practise because to me it is not practising but enjoyment of playing because i want to try to do a good job, and i am happy with the sound i produce[ some of the t .
Jiggers , would you turn up at a classical music perfomance, pay money or[ if free] expect the whole orchestra to be out of tune and out of time, would you turn up at a folk concert and expect a folk perfomer lets say peggy seeger or leon rosselson or show of hands to play out of time with each other and be out of tune all night? no you would not.
your friend might get enjoyment but there are undoubtedly people who stay away because of her and she annoys people with her pig horn, so is she more important than other people?
i remember a bombard player in the north east of the uk who emptied rooms quicker than greased lightning with his bombard and hurdy gurdy that was badly played,
are you a masochist do you enjoy musical and intellectual flagellation, if that is your idea of fun, enjoy it, but do not inflict it on other people without asking .

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:42 AM

I am wrong , i have seen the light and the error of my ways it is ok to perfom folk music or tradtional music badly but not art music. we must all have fun at everyone elses expense play out of tune. that mreans folk music is inferior to other genres of music ok.
next time i go to the opera or to a classical music concert i shall insist on asking for my money back unless they perfomm out of tune out of time, i will say but it was not fun, i want my money back the opera singer was not a stand up comedian ,he did not make me laugh, he tried to perform well he had been practising the lead violinist did not play enough bum notes, she did not do a belly dance

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:45 AM

Dick, I'm well aware we have different approaches to the same music-nowt wrong with that...

I have no time for Zooom/online folk- it seems a contradiction in terms to me! Martin Carthy is a lovely bloke and a well informed singer- not to my taste which is my opinion.
However, you know very well that his live performances certainly include humour, whereas you say the online one did not? A natural reaction to there being no FOLK involvment, ie singing at a camera!   for me, QED

Such singers as you mention would not last a minute in a public bar, never mind a folk club, so let the market decide that- never thought I'd ever find myself quoting Maggie Thatcher!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:57 AM

Jim...Martin Carthy has lasted longer than you and i in folk clubs. Martin Carthy has folk involvement perhaps you should listen to the clip before pre judging
since when has been playing in a public bar been the only criteria of good perfomance or perfomance of folk music.
i might remind you that before folk music was played in public bars in ireland it was played in rambling houses.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:44 AM

dont misundertsatnd me jim,none of this is a criticism of you as a performer

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:55 AM

i suppose you are right, classical musicians would not last ten minutes in a public bar ,most people have gone there to drink alcohol, generally a lot of roaring, scoving, acting the goat, fools playing pool,

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 07:24 AM

I would use humour myself , but i have seen other very good performers be succesful and communicate well with audiences , roy harris, martin carthy, nic jones, all spring to mind.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 07:52 AM

Trad song to art song is a very old tradition in itself of course, going back centuries in England, e.g.

For what it's worth, I introduce the tune with tenor recorder, then either sing unaccompanied or double the melody with keys but, as above, I also enjoy hearing those classically trained adding embellishment and a different style that Sandman mentions.

As for "fiddle playing", most folkies nowadays are playing the Italian fiddle/violin but there are many different fiddles from many different nations.

And going back to the books I had to analyse at school, in order to pass exams, could be fun, as JB suggests...

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:07 PM

WAV   how are things across the water

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:29 PM

Dick, Martin is a good bloke, none better, and he's VERY well informed and I certainly would make NO ctiticism of him or his music, except that it's not really my preference in music- Hope that's clear!

Yes rambling houses WERE the venue for music in the past & sorry I never experienced them. Good folk like Gene Sheerin in Tullaghan, Co Leitrim and Joe Corscadden in Tubbercurry are trying to revive such gatherings. The Brown Bread and Jam club run by Joe is an amazing night!

However, pubs are the main venue these days (pre-covid) and folk clubs are thin on the ground in Ireland, so the pub crowd is who you need to convince about the music- not easy, but its the real world.....

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:30 PM

Cloudy here in Manchester, Sandman; took a half flexi day off and have been watching the Queens tennis on the BBC, after it cleared up in London; also just catching up on a bit of housework; as has become my wont this year, will try and read a another poem and practise another song later today...how about yourself?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 02:46 PM

Jim, no one has suggested that you criticised Martin.
Jim you know I play in the uk as well as ireland. i have found when busking in ireland that singing tradtional songs.. they are well received.
   last november, i was busking in Bantry on a tuesday, and in an hour i collected 100 euros singing and playing trad,
so as far as i am concerned pubs are not the only venues in ireland, busking is the most honest form of performing it suits me to sing trad and its lucrative
so the pub crowd is NOTJUST who i need to convince about the music-, but its the real world.....
oh and i still live in ireland unlike you, and still get booked in pubs singing trad and playing trad,
YOU SEE there are more than one way of getting pub audiences on your side, your way works so does mine OK

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 03:48 PM

Good to hear you have done well busking with trad music, Sandman; you've probably heard it said that most people like folk music - when they do get the chance to hear it.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:36 PM

no pubs open here for music and god knows when it will be.
Jim, is a very good pub performer, butpubs are closing fast in ireland even before covid

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:47 PM

Just to be clear: Jim is a very engaging and entertaining performer, whether at clubs, festivals or in pubs. I guess you didn’t mean it that way, Sandman, but sometimes the term “pub performer” is used in a less complimentary sense, as if to say the person or group concerned is not up to doing folk club gigs or concerts. We had Jim for one of concerts in Edinburgh some years back, and he was excellent, with a great knowledge of the Durham mining songs tradition (the theme of the whole concert was songs about mining.)

And on another subject, re crossing the genres: one song that springs to mind is “Summertime “ from Gershwin’s “Porgy and Bess”: now you say you wouldn’t sing anything operatic in a folk club, and in its original form it is sung by a very high operatic soprano. But it does get sung often enough in folk sessions, usually by low husky-voiced altos, in a more folkie style. And it does seem to make the cross-over quite well.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:34 PM

listen, i have booked Jim several times at my festival and been booked to run sessions with him at festivals , he was a neighbour of mine here in ireland and we got on fine and played together on occasions.
i once did a split booking with him in England
jim brought the subject of pub perfomance in to this discussion here, quote jim bainbriodge
"Such singers as you mention would not last a minute in a public bar, never mind a folk club, so let the market decide that- never thought I'd ever find myself quoting Maggie Thatcher."
quote tattie bogle
And on another subject, re crossing the genres: one song that springs to mind is “Summertime “ from Gershwin’s “Porgy and Bess”: now you say you wouldn’t sing anything operatic in a folk club, and in its original form it is sung by a very high operatic soprano. But it does get sung often enough in folk sessions, usually by low husky-voiced altos, in a more folkie style. And it does seem to make the cross-over quite well
Tattie, i was clearly referring to OPERATIC STYLE. stop twisting my words,
BUT i have never sung summertime because i do not like it LIKEWISE I have never sung Lord Randall because i do not like it
...Where did i say i would not sing anything operatic in a folk club
this is what i said
"i am not insisting on anything, i pointed out that if i were to sing opera in a non operatic style, opera lovers would not like it,"
i did not mention folk clubs.
i thought my meaning was quite clear i meant singing opera in a non operatic style to a gathering of opera lovers
no mention of doing so in folk clubs, PLEASE STOP MISQUOTING ME

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:50 PM

Tattie Bogle, quote
but sometimes the term “pub performer” is used in a less complimentary sense, as if to say the person or group concerned is not up to doing folk club gigs or concerts

Quite clear then if you had read post
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:44 AM
dont misundertsatnd me jim,none of this is a criticism of you as a performer.
that there was no criticism,
so i suggest you read posts properly

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 07:44 PM

classical musicians would not last ten minutes in a public bar ,most people have gone there to drink alcohol, generally a lot of roaring, scoving, acting the goat, fools playing pool,

I've heard the cellist Matthew Barley "last" about an hour and a half playing mostly-contemporary music in a pub. But it was to an audience that knew how to pay attention. Not the first time I'd heard art music performers doing that sort of gig.

Is there any point at all in playing any kind of music to a roomful of shouty drunks who don't want to listen?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 02:35 AM

Definition and Categorization of Folk Music
Posted byadmin        
December 22, 2012        

shapeimage_5Annabelle Brault

Music Therapy Students, University of Windsor

Annabelle Brault is a second year music therapy student at the University of Windsor. Born and raised in Quebec, she attended high school and Cégep in French educational institutions where multicultural and community involvement were predominant. Accordingly, she participated in a cultural immersion program in West Africa for a three month period, which was part of the social sciences program of the Cégep Marie- Victorin. At the completion of her DEC, Annabelle returned to West Africa and conducted her own humanitarian project in a center for disabled children. Her work as a French monitor and promotion agent of bilingual Canadian culture in a small community in the Canadian Northwest Territories motivated her to begin training in music therapy.

Contact: [e-mail]

Download: Article (pdf)
Definition and Categorization of Folk Music

In his work A folk song history of America, Forcucci (1984) describes folk songs as “the songs of the people” (p.16). Those songs are creations of one or more individuals, and the creative process can be collective, individual, or a mixture of both. It is the use of human expression in order to describe one’s way of life (Forcucci, 1984). Because the purpose of folk song is to describe human experiences, it is not surprising that a variety of folk songs exist. Perhaps there is no consensus on how folk songs should be categorized among cultures, but below are some examples of different types of folk songs including: work songs, love songs, drinking songs, cradle songs, play songs, and songs of mourning, etcetera. Respectively, Poston and Arma (1972) in The Faber book of French folk songs organized the folk repertoire according to the categories shown in the following table.

The way folk songs are created or categorized varies, but the way they are transmitted is almost always the same: it is “passed on from person to person, group to group, generation to generation” (Forcucci, 1984, p.16). How folksongs are transmitted directly impacts the songs themselves: Because folk songs are orally transmitted, they are easy to modify and to adapt to one’s personal taste and/or to a particular situation. Moreover, when the songs are sung, some words or part of the tune can be misheard or forgotten. Therefore, folksongs are not fixed in time; they evolve and change through the transmission. In the same way, folksongs “are ordinarily the product of an unknown person or group of persons” (Forcucci, 1984, p.18). Together, folksongs are a way in which people recount their everyday experiences and worries through their most intimate instrument; their own voice.

Folk Music vs. Modern Music

Above was a short simple definition of what folksongs are, but defining folk music is more complex than that. In fact, people still use music as a way to express themselves so why is their music not considered folk music? In order to understand this the section below will explore the differences between modern music and folk music.

Purpose of the Compositions

Folksongs are very personal and are particular to a region or to a people. In fact, folksongs might include specific speech patterns or expressions that are specific to a language or even a dialect; for example, the Jouale in Quebec or the Chiac in New Brunswick are dialect proper to those geographical ensembles (Forcucci, 1984). Moreover, the lyrics of a song might recount a historical event, or a distinct way of life (Forcucci, 1984). For instance, there is a whole part of the Canadian folk music repertoire about the coureur des bois (fur traders). This is a very important part of Canadian history that a person from another part of the world might not be aware of. Consequently, it is sometimes difficult to a foreign person to relate to the folk music of another country or nation: as he/she might not have the emotional attachment or the historical knowledge that is carried in the lyrics of the song. Therefore, folk songs are intimately related to the place where they were composed, which differs significantly to modern music which a larger majority of persons can relate.

The Folk Singer: The Spontaneous Creator vs. the Skilled Composer

One of the most important differences between modern music and folk music is how the songs are composed. Folksongs are the product of the everyday person: any creative person could have been the creator of the folk songs we still sing today. The greatest quality of folk composers is their ability to capture an anecdote and match it with a simple melody that can be sung by everyone (Forcucci, 1984). Similarly, folksongs are simple in structure and meaning; they touch subjects that are closely related to everyday life. In contrast, modern composers are often very skilled musicians; this elite group of people masters the complex language of music and its technologies, and they can share universal and abstract ideas through their music (Forcucci, 1984). Moreover, albums are the result of thousands of hours of work. Another difference lies in the performance of the two types of music (Forcucci, 1984). Folksongs are mostly improvised or modified while performing, while modern music is generally rehearsed before being performed in public. Perhaps we can think of jazz music in which improvisation is common; again, the musicians alone or together rehearse the improvisations prior to performance, even though the improvisation is different every time performed. Put differently, folk music is a realistic recounting of everyday live experience with the use of simple melodies, as modern music can express ideas through planned musical arrangements. Folk music is spontaneous, and not musically notated beforehand, in opposition to modern music that is usually notated before being performed.

Choice of Accompaniment

Another major difference between modern music and folk music is the kind of accompaniment used. As mentioned earlier, folksongs are simple in their structure and matter (Forcucci, 1984). Therefore, it is not surprising that they are also simple in their choice of accompanying instruments. For instance, folk singers generally accompany themselves with less formal instruments, such as the guitar, the banjo, the accordion, the piano, or the violin and further, most folksongs were accompanied by very few or no instruments (“Folk Music”, 2012). This differs substantially from modern music in which the use of larger musical ensembles is extremely common. Larger ensembles enable a composer to create more complex harmonies, and it also gives the composer the possibility to create more elaborate textures.

Technology and its Influence on Transmission

How music is transmitted has undergone a major change in the past decade; in fact, the development of online services transformed forever the musical industry. Online music download organisations, such as iTunes, are now a crucial part of the music selling market. This is at the complete opposite of the way folk songs used to be transmitted. Indeed, folksongs were transmitted my human contact, and more often during communal gatherings (Forcucci, 1984, p.16). It is interesting how the transmission of music depended for the longest time on social interactions, and how now, even the simplest social interaction such as going to the music store is no longer necessary. And yet, music from all around the world has never been so accessible.

Performance Settings and Interpretation

Lastly, the interpretation and similarly the performance settings of folk music contrast with those of modern music. The proximity in which folksongs were shared with the audience differs from the mega stadiums in which the most famous modern musicians perform. Even though more intimate settings still exist today, such as “open mic nights” or fire camp singing, the performing scene is more organized, and that implies a greater distance between the listener and the artist. This has an impact on the singer’s interpretation: it is easier to express sadness to a person sitting next to you, than to the person sitting in the very last row on a 50 000 people stadium. Therefore, the intimate performance setting of folksongs differentiate them from modern music, because it impacts the interpretation of the performer, and enhance the intimacy between the listener and the artist. Below is a table containing the main generalizations about folk songs established by Mr. Forcucci (1984) in his book A folk song history of America (p.18).

References

Folk Music. (n.d.). The Canadian Encyclopedia. Retrieved from http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/emc/folk-music

Forcucci, S. L. (1984). A folk song history of America: America through its songs. Englewood Cliffs, NY: Prentice-Hall Inc.

Poston, E. & Arma, P. (1972). The Faber book of French folk songs. London, UK: Faber and Faber limited.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 04:59 AM

like I said, Dick, analysis can be quite interesting, so thanks for that- well done re the busking & you're right, that is the real world with market forces at play- you're an entrepreneur and we sisagreed about that word before but it is NOT an insult! -pubs are certainly not the best place for folk music but as well as Bantry market, it's where the folk are, like it or not.
I'd be pretty sure it was NEVER in the pubs at all in Ireland until the postwar flood of Irish workers to London. Their tradition was based in the kitchen, but bedsit kitchens didn't allow for that, of course- read Reg Hall's classic thesis on the Irish in London! And the pattern set in England drifted back to Ireland & became the norm.

In my time in west Cork 'traditional' type pubs I found that Gershwin's 'Summertime' was probably the most popular song from anyone asked to sing- is that still true?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 07:06 AM

Not in my experience.
my most lucrative busking experience generally was killarney race course, but that was the 1990s

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 04:35 PM

I'm afraid you've kicked me off this conversation, Sandman: your constant picking of fights with all and sundry is very unsavoury, so, like others before me, I'm outa here!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:22 AM

One of the most enjoyable few minutes I ever enjoyed in a folk club was at the Empress of Russia, in Islington, in the late 70s with Flowers and Frolics. No hangups with this crowd! Nick Havell, the trombonist, and an opera buff, stood up and sang a stirring version of 'La Donna e mobile.
Backed by the band -melodeon, anglo concertiona, banjo, drums & then at the end, Nick sat down and joined in with the trombone for the last run-through.
I don't know if it was folk music or opera, but it was bloody good fun!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 07:37 AM

Until now I've been merely reading this thread. Tattie Bogle, I think it's a shame you're butting out. Your sentiments on this are exactly mine. Two things I've said many times before: first, if the way a song or tune is performed in a way you disapprove of, you don't have to listen. Second, and connected, a good, strong tradition in any walk of life, whether classical, folk, dance, theatre or anything else, need never feel threatened by adventurous types who like to experiment or do different things around the edges.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 07:58 AM

i have no problem with experimentation[ i was one of the first people to use clarinet with concertina, over 40 year ago.
I happen to like classical music and also jazz.
But this thread was about folk music and art music,.
So Steve, do you agree that there are differences in classicl music violin styles and Irish tradtional music fiddle styles?
and that classical violinists like Yehudi Menuhin realised that their stylistic clssical violin style was not stylistisically apt for ITM.
Classical violinists have generally very good technique but the bowing styles of ITM ARE QUITE DIFFERENT.
The same applies to singing of classical opera and tradtional songs, none of this takes away from having fun , it is about trying to do a good a job as possible, since when has trying to do a good performance mean that it can not at the same time be fun.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:20 PM

Dick,music is like food in many ways "one mans meat is another man's poison" at the end of the day enjoy what you like and avoid what you don't like. You have made your views very clear repeatedly,your continual beating of your favorite drum is getting at little tedious.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 02:12 PM

Why does this thread even exist ? I have learnt nothing. With whom is who arguing ? I have a feeling this was all discussed quite a few years back and led nowhere that time too

Sandman
"your friend might get enjoyment but there are undoubtedly people who stay away because of her and she annoys people with her pig horn, so is she more important than other people"

its a pibgorn, which just means 'hornpipe' in Welsh

I dont think anyone stays away, everyone tends to tolerate other peoples weaknesses to encourage more people to take part. The so called 'experts' just organise separate sessions for themselves if needed, at home or at unadvertised venues, but it reduces them to a much narrower social circle.

Plus all the people in the session get to make fun of my friend and her pibgorn and she just laughs - she rarely plays it, I think she just likes showing it off as it was custom made for her - they are not readily available, so you have to find someone to make them Usually there are enough musicians in the sessions so that she does not ruin anything with her tin whistle either.

Maybe Sandman likes the attention or is bored/lonely. I will not look at this thread anymore, it is a waste of my time, and just raises my ire.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 03:08 PM

I don't play the fiddle and know nothing about bowing styles, but I do know that classical violins and folk fiddles are virtually the same thing. We had a fellow join our session who is both an award-winning music teacher and a superb classical violinist. He had severe difficulty in chiming with the rest of us. He was used to learning and playing music from the written note. The concept of chucking in your own ornamentation and variation on the fly didn't sit well with him for a long time, and learning by ear from other session musicians was well outside his comfort zone (he loved it all and rose to the challenge admirably, over time). I think that classically-trained musicians do have the inner resources to adapt to the far more informal ways of folk music, as long as they do what we should all be doing - loving and listening hard to the mores of folk music traditional playing. The one extra thing needed is the motivation.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 04:40 PM

I think that classically-trained musicians do have the inner resources to adapt to the far more informal ways of folk music, as long as they do what we should all be doing - loving and listening hard to the mores of folk music traditional playing. The one extra thing needed is the motivation.
I agree,
    that has been one of my points right from the beginning. if i were to try and play Jazz, not only would i have to learn to improvise well, but i would need to listen and listen to styles and absorb, for example jazz singing is differnt stylistically from unaccompanied traditional uk or irish styles, and different again from opera.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:34 PM

Aggressively dissing the music somebody else appreciates never does anything to get them to like the stuff you do. It's more likely to tell them you're an idiot whose tastes should be ignored.

Probably every single recording Peter Pears made has outsold everything Dick Miles has produced in his entire career. Who's going to be persuaded that all those fans are deluded?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:59 PM

I've always regarded the folk-song efforts of Peter Pears, Robert Tear, Kathleen Ferrier et al to be absolutely valid. But you absolutely don't have to like them. As for me, I've always appreciated the work of Vaughan Williams in incorporating folk music into his classical style. I find him to be reverential and respectful, as well as imaginative. But that's just me. No-one forces anyone else to listen...

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 06:09 PM

"but I do know that classical violins and folk fiddles are virtually the same thing" (Steve)...as said just above, the violin is the Italian fiddle; there are many other fiddles in many other lands, such as the erhu fiddle in China, the Mongolian horse-hair fiddle, Sweden's nyckelharpa, etc.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 03:48 AM

However Peter Pears was technically a good singer ,a good technician[ WHICH I STATED PREVIOUSLY]
. if i wished to learn blues harmopnica i would listen to Sonny Boy Williamson, Sonny Terry, Little Walter, i would listen and try to absorb their styles, that is showing respect to the genre and roots of the music, my points were Peter Pears has clearly made no attempt to listen to styles of tradtional singers., even though he has is a singer with a good technique.
Yehudi Menhuin a very good classical violinist, however he could not get the hang of ITM.... BECAUSE OF THE BOWING DIFFERENCES, given time to absorb the styles and through listening to the music and because he was a good technician he would have probably been successful, heat least had the humility to accept that
Peter Pears appears to have thought folk music should be sung like classical music,
Neither have i criticised Vaughan Williams arrangements.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 04:21 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc
Jack, since when is popularity any guide as to artistic merit.that was Peter Pears, Here is Cliff Richard singing the water is wide, is his version any better because he has sold more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0cPOOibDEg

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 04:59 AM

HERE IS JAMES TAYLOR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opfEk_Yoksk

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 05:05 AM

So Peter Pears outsold Dick Miles? The 'Sun' is the best selling newspaper in Britain- come on, that's daft argument!

A regular visitor to the Marsden Inn folk club in the 60s was one Sean Maguire- hugely admired by many folk musicians and a brilliant technician, but I always thought he was an awful player with a total lack of feeling and was a real show-off. I'd go for Bobby Casey or Danny Meehan anytime!
Talking to Ally Bain at a festival around then, the subject came up & I told him I preferred Max Jaffa**- Ally was totally shocked, and disagreed entirely. Haven't seen him for years, but maybe he now knows what I meant?

** for younger readers, he was a prominent parlour/classical violinist f the time, and I didn't like him either

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 06:23 AM

The Marquis of Douglas, a young man, after being engaged for marriage

with the daughter of one Widow Jack, a taverner at Perth, was wedded at Aba House to Lady Barbara Erskine, daughter of the Earl of Mar.—Lam.

This was an unfortunate marriage for the lady. The marquis, a man of profligate conduct, was subsequently led by his factor, Lowrie of Blackwood (said to have been a rejected suitor of the lady), to suspect his marchioness of infidelity, and they were consequently separated, after she had born him one child. The sorrows of the Marchioness of Douglas were described in a popular ballad of the day, some verses of which constitute the favourite song of Waly, waly!

just a little background info, the woman in this song was not the deceiver as Peter Pears says but the victim.
I like the James Taylor version best of the three clips, but each to their own

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 06:50 AM

I agree with you Jim, about Bobby Casey Danny Meehan and Sean Maguire

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 12:05 PM

"Peter Pears appears to have thought folk music should be sung like classical music" (Sandman) - that's folk song to art song which, as above (Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:19 PM), some just competed with during the Song Prize Final of Cardiff Singer of the World (BBC4) last week.

I wouldn't like to hear folk songs sung and accompanied that way at a folk club or festival but, in their place, quite like such art songs sometimes.

Others in that Cardiff Singer comp sang lieder (often German poetry set to classical music) which seems to have become even more popular since, sadly, Germans turned away from their folk music after it was appropriated by Nazis...two wrongs don't make a right, of course.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 04:52 AM

That has to be the first time in some fifty years that I have seen the words terrible and Sean Maguire in the same sentence. The nearest I came to it previously was in a conversation with Nic Jones who, while agreeing his talent, bemoaned that he didn't display any definitive style.
During the seventies Maguire (and Josie Keegan, appeared many times in the North East in the company of the recently deceased Joe Burke so I doubt that he would compromise his talent and reputation by appearing alongside such a terrible player.
The lack of feeling certainly didn't translate itself across to the crowds who packed these North East venues whenever he played there; unless they were all Sun readers too.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 05:21 AM

Dave- maybe we can put our varying views on this musician down to taste, and I've never been convinced by arguments best summarised as 'well everyone else liked it', but I'll try & clarify my views.

It's hard to justify a feeling but his virtuosity was to me anathema to the whole ethos of folk music. Partly because he obviously had a high opinion of himself- I heard him murdering his party piece, the 'Mason's Apron' with increasing speed, wildly inappropriate variations, purely for the adulation of his admirers, who seemed to put virtuosity above all else?
I heard him once and it was enough for me. During a lot of the 70s, I was in London, listening to the Irish in Holloway, Fulham & other places, and it was a pleasure to hear the understated, self-effacing and community-based music of Bobby Casey, Jimmy Power, Liam Farrell & Raymond Roland, so maybe we have different ideas of what the music is about?
   I have no wish to turn this into an argument about Sean Maguire, nor have I any idea why great musicians liked to play with him (JohnDoonan was a great admirer) maybe he was a technical challenge?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 01:51 AM

Technique should only be a tool.
Good musicians use technique to show emotion and expession in all genres "of music
"The nearest I came to it previously was in a conversation with Nic Jones who, while agreeing his talent, bemoaned that he didn't display any definitive style."
nic jones was spot on with his remark.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 02:11 AM

I played with the New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet, the music was brass band style music and we included arrangements of tradtional tunes one such was called Beauties of Irelan.,
the music arranged for four concertinas[two trebles baritone and bass, it was still recgonisable as dance music, but it relied on harmony rather than single line ornamentation to provide musical interest.i suppose it was an example of something that could be categorised as both folk and art music, however i would not have expected it if we had turned up at an ITM session to have been tolerated on a regular basis, for one thing the music did not have the ethos of inclusivity that most ITM sessions have, it was four guys playing musical arrangements o n concertinas

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM

In my opinion, arrangements of traditional Irish music belong in concerts and on recordings. In sessions they would produce the very opposite of the spontaneity that's at the heart and soul of session-playing.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 01:17 PM

yes, that was my point

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 05:15 PM

"for four concertinas[two trebles baritone and bass" (Sandman)...I've learnt something there - I only knew of Anglo, English and Duet (I've been lucky enough to hear all three at folk clubs and love the homely tones - especially the English concertina).

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 03:53 AM

no, they are not differnt systems, they were all english baritone is lower, an octave. bass are single action,plays only oone direction

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 04:08 AM

is there any reason for the bass being single action? Would doubling the number of reeds make it that much harder to play?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

i am not sure
it could be size of the instrument large reeds need a bigger frame, spo yes it might be harder because of the size and weight.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:06 AM

Myself, and I think most, try to sing one line of verse on one breath so, I guess, for accompaniment, the baritone would be extended with each breath, yes..?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:08 AM

...bass, I mean, sorry.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:24 AM

bass normally plays just bass line, the air button has to be used to get bellows in to suitable place[ in other words not so far out you cannot play a note]

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 11:54 AM

For those who haven't already had the immense pleasure of experiencing the New Mexborough Concertina Quartet, here's a link: New Mexborough

I've slightly amended the blurb:

"...with Dick Miles and the New Mexborough English Concertina quartet performing Dick's self-penned Mexborough Memories - a ballad about the Mexborough English Prize Concertina Band from Yorkshire - the film moves to the Suffolk workshop of Steve Dickinson, who makes concertinas under the Wheatstone & Co. brand.

Construction methods including hand-sawn patterning and reed placement are shown, before Dickinson explains the operation of this unique instrument and its use to perform brass band and parlour music. The segment concludes with a parlour performance by the New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet."

LFF

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 12:58 PM

Enjoyed that, thanks - the tones I like come partly due to each reed being within a closed chamber.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:52 PM

what a way to misspend my youth