BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight

Subject: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 08:02 PM

On 23 May 1976 I visited Acoma Pueblo. It involved a steep uphill climb at the end of the circuitous approach, steep enough that I had clenched nethers as I was on a heavy motorcycle full of gear and while I was going up the steep stretch my feet couldn't reach the slanted surface, so if I wanted to stop for any reason or lost traction, I wasn't going to stay erect.

The Pueblo was well worth the visit. It was still lived in by descendants of its original inhabitants. I was there because I was in the Southwest, and because in the first episode of Alistair Cooke's America he had mentioned Acoma Pueblo and the story of its conquest.

As I'm typing this, the NPR show "Reveal" is mentioning the story of a memorial that was dedicated by New Mexico to the founding of modern state, and the leader of the Spanish Juan de Oñate.

It is not current happenings, but it is far more recent than my visit of the previous millenium.

There is much more to be said about this history and the NPR "Reveal" of this history. I find it utterly fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 11:37 PM

Hi, Robomatic - I'm not finding the story of Acoma Pueblo on Reveal. I take it you must be talking about the current episode, which may not yet be in the archive.

About 25 years ago, I worked in Northern New Mexico on a lengthy assignment, and I saw a number of pueblos. I didn't go into any - that felt like it might be intrusive. But of course, the famous and beautiful Taos Pueblo was open and I visited there. Looks like Acoma may be even more interesting (and less touristy) than Taos. Taos Pueblo is about 135 miles north of Albuquerque. Acuna Pueblo is 64 miles west of Albuquerque.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 01:04 AM

Joe, look at the opening post again: it says that
NPR has a program called Reveal.

I've just been to the NPR website and I believe
I have found what robomatic is speaking of;
I will attempt a link and
preview/proof it in this post.   


NPR: statue comes down in New Mexico

Subject: RE: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 01:48 AM

Thanks, Keberoxu. I think I got confused by the mention of "Reveal," which I listen to regularly. Perhaps NPR had a blurb about the New Mexico statue during the "Reveal" program.

I can't say I know Albuquerque very well. I flew there and then drove immediately to Santa Fe and Los Alamos, and worked Northern New Mexico for 5 weeks - and I have driven through southern New Mexico. Didn't find anything to like around Albuquerque, but now I've heard there's a wildlife refuge south of Albuquerque that sounds very interesting.

But in New Mexico, people seem to do their best to do the right thing. They are an interesting mix of Latino and Anglo and Native American peoples who usually seem to get along quite well without intermarrying. The cultures have remained distinct.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:50 PM

Keberoxu thank you for the enlightenment.


I had been walking and talking about my visit to the Acoma Pueblo the day before yesterday, along with the story of how the Spanish leader had the population punished after their defeat. In this case I'm combining different sources. My (imperfect) memory tells me that in the 70s Alistair Cooke episode in "America" he said that the Spanish made the Indians build a church on the mesa which is home to the Pueblo and haul up enough dirt to have a cemetary for it. In the recent stories mention is made that he also had many of the men punished by having a foot lopped off.

The show I was listening to yesterday was a repeat of something they said aired originally in 2018. It had the ring of familiarity about it.

I have driven across New Mexico more than once since that 70s trip. On another trip I camped out in National Parks in the Four Corners region adjoining Chaco Canyon (New Mexico) and Canyon de Chelly (Arizona). I had an opportunity to walk into what I remember as Arches National Park (Utah) I was in late Fall and there were few people on the vacation trails. No one at Arches. I parked alone and walked into big stone scenery where it was easy to imagine there were dinosaurs out of sight (once you were past the guard rails).

The story linked by Keberoxu mentions that even in his time Onate was criticized and put on trial. My view of the Spanish used to be less complex due to being uninformed. There is great simplicity in ignoring folks who speak a different language.

When I was there the church was standing and I remember a story from antiquity about the now Catholic inhabitants having a war with other locals over a sacred object that was alleged to have been stolen from the Acomites.

Dare I say: "War will find a way?"

Subject: RE: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 08:13 PM

The haves will always be assailed by the have nots but the short 100 year disappearence of the Pueblos, Anastazi and Zuni by 1300 AD after more than a 1,000 years of architecture and agriculture, have the fingerprints of climate change and drought all over it.

The Spanish were the extreme villains of their day with an extermination of the savages point of view, in the name of god.

Subject: RE: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 11:05 PM

Oñate was a butcher and locals kept cutting the foot off of the "memorial" statue. Did they go into that?

Subject: RE: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:48 PM

A couple months ago I finally got around to reading Edward Abbey's book "Desert Solitaire". When I finished it I decided to move just a bit south from the Arches area in Utah to the Navajo country of Four Corners —— decided to binge re-read in order all the Tony Hillerman Navajo Tribal Police mysteries. So I've been immersed in Southwestern culture and history for over a month now.

Also read Hillerman's memoirs and his book of short non-fiction and I'm partway through one of the two books I have of historical and literary background to his writing.

"The Spanish were the extreme villains of their day with an extermination of the savages point of view, in the name of god." Seems to me the white man was attempting the same thing, but in the name of Mammon. Sorry the First Nation people in the region have to look on the official names of mountains, etc. named after men who tried their damnedest to obliterate them.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 06:35 PM

Well, the business of runaways getting a foot chopped off
is not unique to the Spanish.

Remember Kunte Kinte in Roots?
Those were not Spanish ...

Subject: RE: BS: Acoma Pueblo and Historical Insight
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 11:31 PM

I did hear of the Oñate statue losing a foot, or of the suggestion that someone do it. Can't remember if it was the PBS source but it may have also been in Wikipedia.

A lot of our attitude of the Spanish likely comes from our history, not to mention our language, being sourced out of one of the leading Spanish antagonists, dear old England. And the English were not slack in the cultural domination department. I definitely shared in that attitude until I met some Floridians who retired to Alaska, but had lived in the city of St. Augustine,St. Augustine is the oldest continuously occupied settlement of European origin in the contiguous United States.

Then I saw a documentary called "Secrets of Spanish Florida"
. It was a fascinating glimpse into a history I was unaware of. Among the points it made:

A) The incredible savagery of European-on-European violence. The Spanish founders of St. Augustine were competing with a French colonial effort. It ended with a massacre.

B) The Spanish were not blindly ignorant of their treatment of the indigenous people. There were cases where they tried their own people for their actions, including Oñate.

C) The Spanish of St. Augustine, according to the documentary, had an almost liberal attitude to other races, who were allowed to dwell nearby in freedom. This resulted in attacks from the English colonies to the north, who were threatened by free people of color who were an attraction and competition to those who did he work in their slave economies.