BS: Another shooting in US

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:00 PM

I have posted many times to explain the "WHY" of the situation.

Go to Google and read a dozen articles about the USA and 'States Rights' and why it is so difficult to change!
There is simply **NO** simple path for national referendums on things like alcohol, abortion, immigration, marriage laws... and gun laws.

We are a different country than you, with a different history and different rules. It all made sense in 1780, when we were just a group of semi-isolated colonies, and when we decided to organize as a **country**, those colonies became *states* and were soon divided about things like slavery. Then, as we gradually moved West..(paying little attention to the rights of the indigenous people)... new states-still days or weeks of travel from Washington D.C., wanted to make their state in their own mold.

Now, it takes a Constitutional Amendment to change and of that basic setup....and requires years and "The amendment must then be ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures, or three-fourths of conventions called in each State for ratification." And those 'conservative' states DO NOT WISH to change and be ruled by a central government!!

The USA is not Britain... we don't even know how to be any longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:00 PM

Yes RD, I’m aware of that. More’s the pity, AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:03 PM

That was to RainDog, not to you Bill.

Yes, I recall our discussions in the past now. All I can say is what I’ve said before, it’s madness.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:13 PM

So you see, once we had painted ourselves into a corner, we were trapped. It's even worse, because paint eventually dries, and one can get out.
A better metaphor would be like...colonizing another planet with different gravity and geology and who knows what else...

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:19 PM

... and it wasn't "madness" when it was all being organized. It seemed like what was needed. Madness is in the minds of those who are now emotionally and psychologically committed to their *rights* to own guns... thus making them easily available to the mentally disturbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:20 PM

Can’t argue with that, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 01:23 PM

The confederates/insurrectionists/white 'nationalosts', gun-loving basic racists are all state's rights enthusiasts. Be it a hate or envy of another race, the US is still engaged in an institutional Civil War to make blacks a permanent underclass.

A third of Americans treat Black/colored people like pennies. By law they have to accept them but if there are more than a dozen they feel WTF.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 02:14 AM

I didn't re-read all of this thread, just part, so I don't know if anyone has made this point, a point that makes my heart bleed:

When we in the USA are not able to 'reach' the willfully blinded people on the far right, what reason do we have to think that we can reach the gun totin' minded? (Oddly, it even appears that they tend- overwhelmingly- to be the same people.)

I know. Not all people who own or collect firearms are violence prone and would never condone mass shootings- although it seems to me that there is a certain illness deep in their psyches- but maybe, just maybe, even they should rethink their affections and addictions.

My artist brother once told me that "You must admit that women's legs are prettier when they're wearing high heels." I told him that maybe, just maybe, artists should rethink their standards of beauty.

So, maybe, just maybe....

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 07:55 PM

Yes, Ebbie.. it does seem that the gun toters and the willfully blinded are sadly part of the same group(s)... which to me indicates that both share a certain need to have their prejudices, religious beliefs, political attitudes and scientific concepts foisted on others in almost any way possible.
They often indulge in arguments using variations of Counterfactual conditionals and other careless warping of logic.

It seems to be almost automatic for them

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 11:36 PM

Yes, not all gun enthusiasts have too much hair on their knuckles and thirst after the mass shooting news. The news media used to be about pleasing the advertisers but now it's about pleasing only ideological niches and conspiracy populism. This has led to today's separate camps who want to hear their side is always right...
that and my premise that racism is the active membership card for the Republican Party. Those ingrown and inbred hatreds are madness.

The emotion acted on to buy guns is not a love for safety. It is fear and anger.

My local experience is that I went to the same gas station, grocery store, and craft store that were all victimized by the same sniper. The McDonalds had a grandpa shot dead in the drive thru but that was by police and the victim was black.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 10:51 AM

shootings ar not just in US

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 02:51 PM

The truest saying which needs more than ten seconds of reactive thought:

"Guns don't kill people.
People kill people.
Guns just make it very very easy!

I added the bold so people make an effort not to take it at face value.

Whenever I hear of another of these occurrences I wonder if it was sparked by a once 'good guy' with a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 08:42 AM

The Uvalde police were the good guys?

knives don't kill people... Yeah they do, just not 63 people at a time like in Vegas.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 04:31 AM

Bill D: February 16, 12:00: "It all made sense in 1780, when we were just a group of semi-isolated colonies, and when we decided to organize as a **country**, those colonies became *states* and were soon divided about things like slavery. Then, as we gradually moved West..(paying little attention to the rights of the indigenous people)... new states-still days or weeks of travel from Washington D.C., wanted to make their state in their own mold."

I agree with the premise, Bill, but it seems to me that your assertion really makes sense only if we were the FIRST generation, the generation that did the violent colonizing.

To me, it does not explain why after 10 or so generations we, as a society, are still embracing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 05:05 AM

”To me, it does not explain why after 10 or so generations we, as a society, are still embracing it.”

Because…

a) money talks, and…
b) a significant proportion of your population are brainwashed by that talking money into believing the falsehood that you’re only ‘safe’ if you’re armed with a gun.

To us Brits, the stupidest thing we ever hear coming out of the US after a shooting-event is that the answer to shootings is to have more guns.

But I don’t see it changing any time soon. Or even any time at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 06:48 AM

Backwoodsman, it isn't daft, it is brilliant marketing

More guns = more shootings
More shootings = more guns

and at thew same time

More guns = more money

therefore

More shootings = more money

A bit like the arms race when USA and USSR were competing to see how many more times over each could obliterate the planet.

Once everyone has a gun, then the argument would be that the only way then to stop someone with a gun is to have two guns, or a faster gun, or a more expensive gun....

Reminds me a bit of washing powder ads.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 07:06 AM

The NRA was the funnel for the more guns rhetoric and money to candidates. With the demise of the NRA, money still gets to candidates from gun factories without the middleman. The current situation is summed up by Backwoodsman but there is the lust for the destructive power of assault weapons by those who feel powerless.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 07:08 AM

SPB - yes, that’s pretty much what I was hinting at in my post. It’s so bloody ludicrous- you really couldn’t make it up, could you?

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 07:11 AM

I thought I just did :)

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 07:12 AM

;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 08:57 AM

Still a bit concerned that once US has reached saturation point for its domestic market, (in 2018 120.5 per 100 population firearms in civilian possession or about 100 x those held by military and law enforcement), it will be looking at rolling out exports and applying pressure on other countries to relax their gun laws - (as a condition for trade deals?). Out of interest the country/subnational area that come second (Falkland Islands) has only half the number per capita but this would be distorted by having a small population. In terms of larger populations the highest with a population of more than 100 million is Pakistan which has only a fifth per capita.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 12:54 AM

You're right to worry about that, SPB- the tobacco industry did that to the foreign market; along about the time that America became convinced that smoking wasn't all that good for anyone, the industry turned its attention to new markets. And found them over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 03:42 AM

The USA is a big place. There is some sense in people who live in remote rural locations owning guns in order to protect themselves from wildlife and law breakers. They could be living many miles from any police organisations.

I suppose a cases could be made that if everyone carried a gun there would be less fatalities from mass shooters. The mass killer would be stopped earlier in his spree. That would probably be offset by an increase in killings as a result of arguements over politics, sport, parking spaces etc., resulting in guns being involved. Unlikely to result in fewer fatalities overall.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 04:12 AM

Well it hasn’t worked so far, RD. There are already more guns in the US than people, but there’s no real sign that mass shootings, and deaths by shooting overall, are reducing. Probably the opposite.

Saying that more guns would make people safer seems to me to be tantamount to suggesting that the best way to put a fire out is by pouring petrol on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 08:31 AM

On the wish list for gun manufacturers is the RPG Rocket Propelled Grenade gun. This is better than bazookas for the MAGA crowd.
Assault weapons are lusted after by the 'powerlust' powerless, but RPG's are to die for.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 02:16 PM

Ebbie... as to "To me, it does not explain why after 10 or so generations we, as a society, are still embracing it."
"It" can be either slavery, unlimited guns..or both. There are, sadly, those who would happily embrace slavery if it were legal anywhere.

Because we are 200+ million people!

It moving West, the first 6-7 generations NEEDED weapons, both for hunting and for defense. (yes.. for offense, too, but that was not the same kind of 'need'.)

Did we need guns after 1885 or so? Not exactly, but by then most people assumed that was part of society... and in the process, many people who didn't actually need them found them fascinating and became collectors..etc....and they have that silly 2nd Amendment to wave at the more sensible among us!

So.."..we, as a society,.." do NOT embrace it. More than 50% would restrict guns much more than currently! It's just that the embracers have the upper hand...so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 11:11 PM

In today's political activities, Alabama GOP Representative Barry Moore introduced a legislative bill proposing that the AR15 be named America's national gun.

Having been used as the favorite rifle in multiple mass shootings in the USA, what an honor it is to have it thus recognized.

Irony be dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 02:11 AM

”In today's political activities, Alabama GOP Representative Barry Moore introduced a legislative bill proposing that the AR15 be named America's national gun.

Having been used as the favorite rifle in multiple mass shootings in the USA, what an honor it is to have it thus recognized.”

Only in Amerika…   :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 23 - 12:31 PM

That sort of proposal is much more an attention getting device for a politician. It has no hope of getting passed...or even getting traction.

This one way the far-right identify themselves to others of the ilk.(similar to MTG's idea of a "national divorce' between red & blue states.)

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 23 - 12:26 PM

Another one yesterday. One of the first responders, a gun lover himself, made a very sensible statement

"Mental health didn’t kill these people, it was an automatic rifle with bullets"

He went on to say that there is no need for the general public to have AR 15s and as long as they can access them, these things will keep happening:-(

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 23 - 12:42 PM

24 MS this week

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 08 May 23 - 07:00 AM

Amos told me "Just talk to them" whenever I complained about a neighbor who had an extremely unreasonable point of view.
I tried that but the gun subject is unbending to Gov. Greg Abbott or Rapparree. The subject is avoided by "now is not the time" or "the real problem is mental health" or "we need more good guys with M4s and AR 15s." To them, 'Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness' is not for children or parents, it is for the gun. Madness!

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 23 - 10:34 AM

Its one of those 'two legs bad, four legs good' type arguments. The differences are apparently irreconcilable.

The anti gun lobby has to start by recognising that there is something seductive and beautiful about guns.

However there is no reason why what happened with cigarettes in England could not happen with guns in America. For our generation fags were a fashion accessory - sometimes in gold packets like personal jewellry. The natural accompaniment to any nights drinking. We even smoked in class in college.

Somehowsmoking became uncool and wisely most people gave it the elbow. Just like guns - it was a huge industry. Cities like Nottingham were proud to host companies like Player, and Nottingham Castle was featured on many cigarette packs.

How willl the shift be effected? In a way its started. Did you see the video for Teenage Dirtbag, where the villain who loses the girl is a creep who brings his gun to school? Unwisely some prat has blanked out the word gun. censored it. Some woke wanker.

You will need to get your castles lined up and make sure people of intelligence are influencing opinion, if you truly want to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 23 - 11:03 AM

I think you may be underestimating the role and power of money in the US/guns love-affair there, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 May 23 - 11:12 AM

I was hoping the NRA might go bankrupt, but so far, they're alive and getting people killed with their gun worship.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 23 - 12:29 PM

I can’t imagine the gun manufacturers allowing their most vocal supporter go bankrupt, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 23 - 01:24 PM

What's a woke wander, Al?

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 May 23 - 02:38 PM

It's the lawsuits that would put the NRA out of business.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 23 - 03:12 PM

I don't know. Remember how the tobacco companies sponsored racing cars and snooker tournaments. Had their own team of tame MP's.

I cannot believe that Americans love their guns as much as I and all my friends loved our cigarettes. It bled us dry as students. Lecturers would be telling us all about child welfare whilst puffing away.

all our heroes smoked. when Bert Jansch had a pack of gold leaf open on the cover of one of his LPs, we all switched to that brand for a while.

It really will take that sort of volte face.

Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 23 - 03:17 PM

woke wanker definition

the sort of person who calls my wife out for using 'hate words'.

She had described her transistor radio as a 'trannie'.
Apparently nowadays it is an abusive term for a transexual..So don't use the word on Facebook.