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Question about Irish vs English fiddling

The Sandman 06 Oct 21 - 07:00 AM
The Sandman 06 Oct 21 - 07:03 AM
The Sandman 06 Oct 21 - 07:48 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 09:27 AM
The Sandman 06 Oct 21 - 10:08 AM
The Sandman 06 Oct 21 - 10:12 AM
The Sandman 06 Oct 21 - 10:18 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 11:22 AM
The Sandman 06 Oct 21 - 12:15 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 12:18 PM
The Sandman 06 Oct 21 - 04:35 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 04:46 PM
The Sandman 07 Oct 21 - 01:17 AM
The Sandman 07 Oct 21 - 03:07 PM
The Sandman 08 Oct 21 - 02:56 AM
GUEST 08 Oct 21 - 04:40 AM
The Sandman 08 Oct 21 - 07:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 07:00 AM

I agree to some extent, Steve,
some people maintain enthusiasm despite that, but teaching of technique is not solely about playing scales, much can depend on the teacher trying to make it interesting.
There are ways of making playing of scales intersting, USING TUNES to illustrate scales. Winster gallop is a very good one for beginners
ATHOL HIGHLANDERS is good for arpeggios.
Random jig is good for octave practice
there is a very good sliabh luchra polka that is very good for playing the dorian scale and so on. using tunes to illustrate scales modes octave practice broken chords etc


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 07:03 AM

Furthermore, learning by ear is also part of classical teaching it is called aural skills.
classical teaching is not just about playing scales


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 07:48 AM

________________________________________________________________________________________
Keegan, Niall. The Parameters of Style in Irish Traditional Music.   
Inbhear, Volume 1, Issue 1. © Inbhear, Journal of Irish Music and Dance, 2010. www.inbhear.ie

p89

Anyone familiar with traditional Irish music would know that the time values
are not observed strictly as above. However we can see here the common
paradigms of the older musicians playing slower and dancers needing the
music too fast emerging   


Instrument Specific Techniques

Many, if not all, instruments, possess capacities for techniques and effects on
their own instruments that are not quantifiable by the above and are
individual to that specific instrument or perceived family of instruments.
Many of the categories above group techniques individual to certain
instruments but quantified by their audible effect. For example, articulation is
achieved on the fiddle by changing the direction of the bow, the pipes by
stopping all the holes on the chanter, the whistle and flute by stopping the
flow of air into the instrument using the tongue or throat.   However, here we
are talking about techniques also individual to certain instruments that don’t
fall into the categorical structures above and have distinct audible effects.
When examined it is true to say that many of these instrument techniques are
associated with the capacity of the instrument in question playing more than
one tone at any one time, and doing so very often to primarily produce
rhythmical emphasis or provide a harmonic accompaniment. They include:

Instrument Technique Description
Fiddle Double-
stopping
Playing more than one string at one time to
produce a chord or drone.
Banjo   Chording Playing chords at strategic points in the tune
Pipes Regulator
playing
The employment of the regulator pipes, laying
across the lap of the piper, to provide a basic
harmonic and rhythmical accompaniment.
Accordion Use of
Bass
Providing basic rhythmical and harmonic
accompaniment with the left hand
Concertina Octaving

Playing the melody in two octaves simultaneously

Fig. 21. Instrument specific techniques " quote.
So it would appear that irish and english fiddling have this in common
Fiddle Double-
stopping
Playing more than one string at one time to
produce a chord or drone


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 09:27 AM

In the words of the mighty Mi****l G**l, Dick, why practise scales when tunes ARE scales...

(I promise not to mention him again...) ;-)


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 10:08 AM

Well, if you are a button player,say on a unisonic concertina, here is a reason, in small doses it can be useful for mastering finger attack, the same goes for blowing instruments, scales maybe for a couple of minutes using tongueing, finger attack. for unisonic concertinas for practising bellows reversals,
i might then try it out on a tune, if i was a fiddler and i was once but had trouble with intonation i might very briefly use a scale to practise trebling [bow ornamentation] before experimenting with it in a tune.
i admit i do not practise scales much, but do a little bit now and again on the concertina, a lot of them use different finger patterns, so it fsmilarises the player with different keys ,but i agree playing tunes in different keys is a more fun way to do it


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 10:12 AM

for beginners wanting to develop ones ear playing a scale of a major key, then trying to play particular intervals, lets say in thirds, then trying out lets say the dorian mode flat 3rd. flat 7 of major key, as well as playing easy REPETITIVE tunes like when the saints. i think it is a mistake to dismiss scales altogether


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 10:18 AM

IF You take 30 KEY CG ANGLO[ bisonic] and practise the scale of g major and then practise it starting on the C row, so you are now crossing the rows, it again familarises your fingers with the different patterns and directions, and initially is easier than the easiest tune, AND THEN PRACTISE THE SCALE OF D MAJOR STARTING ON THE C ROW.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 11:22 AM

The Belfast Hornpipe is great for chops for up-and-down scales...


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:15 PM

I agree, but i do not like to be dogmatic about being anti scales or pro sales


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:18 PM

The teaching of an instrument via grades is pretty dogmatic about scales...


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:35 PM

really, I have not done it, have you? I understood they taught other things as well, how is it done in 2021. i also understood that CCE also taught using grades SEE BELOW
SCT Exam Info

    About the SCT Exams
    History of the SCT Exams
    Taking the Exams
    Applications & Syllabus
    SCT Grade Structure Changes & Exam Fees

You can register online for the SCT Exams
About the SCT Exams

There’s more to Irish traditional music than just playing tunes. Musical works have histories and stories, just as musicians today stand on the shoulders of giants from the past. The SCT (Scrúdu Ceol Tíre) programme is a graded series of exams designed to take you as a musician from basic proficiency in tune-playing through to a mastery of the tradition. Along the way you’ll learn about music theory, improve your ear and research the history of musical pieces, styles and players. Oh, and play tunes, of course!

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History of the SCT Exams

Since the founding of Comhaltas in 1951, traditional musicians have achieved recognition through our Fleadh Cheoil competitions at county, provincial, and All-Ireland levels. While this remains a prestigious way to demonstrate playing ability, it seemed appropriate to create a broader framework of measurement for traditional music to include not only performance, but also sources of tunes, regional styles and so forth. The programme set out to offer formal recognition to a broader group of traditional musicians while at the same time strengthening the tradition itself through more intensive study.

Comhaltas and the Royal Irish Academy of Music (RIAM) established the Traditional Irish Music Examination as a joint project to meet these goals. The programme was launched by President Mary McAleese at Dublin Castle on 14 December, 1998.

In February 2003 Comhaltas assumed full responsibility for administering and developing all aspects of the examination.

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Taking the Exams

The exam is offered annually between March and June in locations throughout Ireland and the United States. Applicants are assigned a time slot with an experienced examiner who listens to performances and also speaks informally with the student about the theory and history of traditional music. Most SCT applicants are entered by their music teachers, who have the best sense of which level to enter. Passing the exam entitles the student to a certificate of proficiency and the right to progress to the next level of evaluation.

The SCT programme includes 12 levels of competence:

    Elementary (3 Levels)
    Grade (8 Levels)
    Advanced Performance Certificate

At the early Elementary levels, candidates play just two tunes and complete some basic music theory exercises. At the Senior levels, these advanced musicians are expected to play selections from a broad range of musical types, including appropriate ornamentation and other embellishments. Senior candidates also submit written submissions on a topic from the SCT syllabus.

Completion of the Senior Cycle serves as a further step towards the TTCT Teaching Diploma Course.

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Applications & Syllabus

    Online Registration for the SCT
    Offline Registration (by post) for the SCT
    SCT Syllabus
    Research Project Cover Sheet DOC, PDF

Printed copies of the syllabus are available on request from Comhaltas - contact us for details. The SCT syllabus is also available for download.

If you are interested in taking the examination, you should first discuss this with your music teacher or local Comhaltas branch secretary ( Find a branch )

When you and your teacher have agreed on a level to enter, you can either register online for the SCT Exams or download the SCT application form. If you have any questions, you may contact us via email for more information at sct@comhaltas.ie. Due to limited staff, we’re sorry that we cannot accept SCT queries via telephone.

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SCT Grade Structure Changes & Exam Fees
2016 Onwards         Fee         (2015)
Elementary 1         €25         (Elementary Cycle 1)
Elementary 2         €25         (Elementary Cycle 2)
Elementary 3         €25         (Elementary Cycle 3)
Grade 1         €30         (Junior Cycle 1)
Grade 2         €30         (Junior Cycle 2)
Grade 3         €35         (Junior Cycle 3)
Grade 4         €40         (Junior Cycle 4)
Grade 5         €45         (Junior Cycle 5)
Grade 6         €50         (Senior Cycle 1)
Grade 7         €60         (Senior Cycle 2)
Grade 8         €70         (Senior Cycle 3/Senior Cycle 4) *
Advanced Performance Certificate         €90         *

* 2016: Candidates who received minimum Distinction grade (in Performance section) in Senior 3 or minimum Honours Grade (in Performance section) in Senior 4 exams during or before 2015 can choose to enter at either Grade 8 or Advanced Performance Certificate level in 2016. Candidates who have achieved a grade other than Distinction in Performance section of Senior 3 (in 2015 or earlier) are eligible to take the Grade 8 examination only in 2016.

* 2017: Candidates for Advanced Performance Certificate must have achieved minimum overall Honours grade in Grade 8 examination.

* 2018: Candidates for Advanced Performance Certificate must have achieved minimum overall Honours grade in Grade 8 examination, and have passed Grade 7 examination.

* 2019 onwards: Candidates for Advanced Performance Certificate must have achieved minimum overall Honours grade in Grade 8 examination and have passed Grade 7 and Grade 6 examinations.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:46 PM

Or we could just play the music and have fun...?


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 01:17 AM

the op must understand that despite CCE efforts there is not just one style of itish fiddling but a number of regional styles which are quite differnt, there is also a difference between northumbrian style and southern english style.
in answer to steve shaw, learning and taking exams can be fun depending on how the subject is taught.
the problem IMO with CCE approach is it is an attempt to standarise style, including fiddle styles, CCE exams are becoming less important as there are plenty of good you tube lessons that demonstrate regional styles of irish fiddling which do not involve exams


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 03:07 PM

accoording to a book i have on fiddle bowing by Tom McConville he states that he would emphasise beats 2 and 4 with a down bow,
i do not know if English fiddlers would do this,scottish fiidllers apparantly emphasise beats 2 and 4.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 02:56 AM

so if the player wants to emphasise particular notes this is where bisonic instruents like the anglo concertina do not have the same control, they appear on first hearing to have more bounce, but the bounce is more difficult to control, the gd melodeon or button accordion has more options for cross rowi playing to smooth things out or emphasise certain notes but it still has limitations.
unisonic concertinas can reverse bellows wherever they like, so if the player wants to emphasise in a fashion similiar to scottish or irish fiddlers they can do the emphasis wherever they like in the tune.
   all sytems of concertinas or diatonic acordions can also use finger attack to try and overcome the problem of being particular with emphasis.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 04:40 AM

when is the PhD?


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 07:07 AM

there will not be one but i am happy to help others IF they want help


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