Red River Valley song - origins

Subject: Red River Valley song - origins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 11:39 PM

This post was put on the Facebook announcement page, then deleted by the author, but I captured enough of it to start this thread.

From Eric M. Bram, who posted:

My research indicates that "Red River Valley" originated in Manitoba following the Métis Indian rebellions of the mid-19th century. In the song, a local woman (probably of a Native American tribe) sings to her soldier lover who will soon be returning from his deployment to his "home by the ocean."

The river in question would be the Red River (sometimes called the Red River of the North), which runs from the border between North Dakota and Minnesota northward through Manitoba and empties into Lake Winnipeg.

I have a copy of what I believe is the oldest known manuscript, written in pencil, of the lyrics of the song. I obtained the manuscript from the archives of the State University of Iowa where I found it a collection of the papers of a folksong collector of the late 19th and early 20th century. The manuscript indicated that the lyrics were gathered in Nemaha County and Harlan County (Nebraska) in 1879 and 1885, respectively.

I grabbed a copy of the image that he shared, and can save it to Facebook later (ironic - we post images there but not content). I hope he will come to the Mudcat site and discuss his research - it is important and interesting.

SRS

Subject: RE: Red River Valley song - origins
From: Norval
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 01:39 AM

A previous thread has much the same discussion.
The 2011 posting below has similar information.

===

Subject: Lyr Add: THE RED RIVER VALLEY
From: Taconicus - PM
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 11:56 AM

I've been able to obtain a copy of Edwin Piper's original manuscript of the lyrics to Red River Valley from the Edwin Ford Piper Collection of the University of Iowa Libraries with the help of Jacque Roethler, Special Collections Assistant at the University of Iowa in Iowa city (not to be confused with Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa).

The song is of course in the public domain, and since the manuscript is unpublished, the copyright expired 70 years after the death of the author, which would be 2009 since Edwin Piper died in 1939. Accordingly, the manuscript is now in the public domain. I've just posted a copy on the Web, HERE.

Nemaha and Harlan are counties in Nebraska (Edwin Piper was born in Auburn, Nebraska). I believe the notations at the bottom of the manuscript therefore refer to the places and years that those folk song lyrics were collected (Piper was an avid collector of folksongs). If the song was written, as is supposed, shortly after the Red River rebellion (1869-70) in Manitoba, this would mean that these lyrics (as recorded in 1879) must be very close to the original. In any case, this indicates that these lyrics were collected long before the 1896 version by James Kerrigan listed in the Mudcat lyrics (DT) section.

Edwin Piper likely did not collect these himself since he was not born until 1871, so these were probably collected during his childhood by someone he knew and given to him later. Perhaps it was a family member, perhaps his mother or father, who was also interested in folk music and collected them?

I debuted the song at the Hudson Valley Folk Guild this past Saturday, and it was a big hit - no one had heard all those lyrics before. It's one of those "classic American folksongs" (a category in which I include songs from Canada) of which everyone is familiar, but of which practically no one has heard more than a single verse and chorus. I added two words to the lyrics for the performance since the second line of the fourth verse from the manuscript does not scan, nor does it rhyme as the rest of the song does, and therefore I consider it suspect as probably not being the original lyric. I replaced that line (for the performance) with "Don't forget the sweet hours so free." I also sang the chorus after the second and fourth verses only.

The Red River Valley

From the valley they say you are going,
I shall miss your bright eyes and fair smile;
But alas, you take with you the sunshine
That has brightened my pathway awhile.

      Chorus:
      Then consider awhile ere you leave me
      Do not hasten to bid me adieu
      But remember the Red River Valley
      And the heart that has loved you so true.

Do you think of the valley you're leaving,
How lonesome and dreary 'twill be?
Do you think of the heart you have broken
And the sorrow that o'ershadows me?

It is a long time I've been waiting
For the words that you never would say,
But alas, all my hopes they have vanished
For they say you are going away.

When you go to your home by the ocean,
Don't forget the sweet hours so free,
That we spent in the Red River Valley
And be true to your promise to me.

The fair maiden prays for her lover
To the spirit that rules o'er the world
May his pathway be covered with sunshine
Is the prayer of the Red River girl.

Nemaha 1879, Harlan 1885
The Edwin Ford Piper Collection, The University of Iowa Libraries, Iowa City, Iowa
(The italicized words in the lyrics were added by the author of this post, 2011)

Subject: RE: Red River Valley song - origins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 09:45 AM

Bound for my true love on the Red River shore is from another marvy song

Subject: RE: Red River Valley song - origins
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 04:28 PM

The statrt of the thread was.

"My research indicates that "Red River Valley" originated in Manitoba (Canada) following the Métis Indian rebellions of the mid-19th century. In the song, a local woman (probably of a Native American tribe) sings to her soldier lover who will soon be returning from his deployment (perhaps the 1870 Wolseley Expedition from Toronto to Manitoba’s northern Red River Valley) to his "home by the ocean."
The river in question would be the Red River (sometimes called the Red River of the North), which runs from the border between North Dakota and Minnesota northward through Manitoba and empties into Lake Winnipeg.
I have a copy of what I believe is the oldest known manuscript, written in pencil, of the lyrics to the song. I obtained the manuscript from the archives of the State University of Iowa where I found it (not the first to do so) in a collection of the papers of a folksong collector of the late 19th and early 20th century. The manuscript indicated that the lyrics were originally recorded in Nemaha County and Harlan County (Nebraska) in 1879 and 1885, respectively.
Here are the manuscript and my adaptation (as I sing it).

My comment on the face book thread started with

"Search the Bright Mohawk Valley"

I was directed to another source that appeared to be The Ballad Index and the index petty much agrees with the original poster. So I replied..

"Yup And the title is probably fairly recent as well. The Ballad Index is a valuable resource. If it isn't always definitive, it is always a help and interesting. My suspicion is the song and or the melody is older still. And while it is probably The Red River of the North in the song I will bet you a new American Nickel that song, and the melody at least, came from Eastern Canada via settlers. How it got to The Maritimes and from where before that is anyone's speculations. I like your take on the lyric Eric. I think it is a great song where ever it came from."

Songs travel and influence people. Just the well traveled path for Streets of Larendo so this. I find the Red River Valley discussion to be interesting and worth reading.

Don

Subject: RE: Red River Valley song - origins
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 05:37 PM

I heard more from the poster on Facebook, he is the same as the post identified earlier. He wasn't realizing that the Facebook page isn't meant to duplicate the work of Mudcat.org, so posting this stuff there isn't necessary. The photos were interesting, though, and using FB as a place to put images is helpful since they are rarely posted on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Red River Valley song - origins
From: Brian May
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 04:58 PM

Fascinating, thank you.

It's a song I sing but I only ever knew the first verse and chorus.

Subject: RE: Red River Valley song - origins
From: Newport Boy
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 10:24 AM

Songs travel and influence people.

We finished a 1999 cycling trip in China with a few days in Beijing. On our last day (from my diary):

The morning was clear bright and warm, and we continued walking along the main street to pass the Forbidden City and turn north up the west side. Lunch about 13:45 of noodles, beef & green pepper, tofu and spinach, with beer and tea for 78y. Then over to the park and up to the top of the hill. The building on the top was being renovated, and this limited the views, but they were still good. Near the top there were two older men playing guitar and fiddle, and some youngsters from a group were joining in some of the songs. When they identified us as English, they played Red River Valley and Greensleeves, which I had to sing. One of them spoke fair English, and he was a petroleum engineer who had visited Scotland, including Orkney & Shetland. The other was a highway engineer with 40 years experience of bridge design and construction.

Again, only the first verse and chorus, which was all I could remember.

Phil

Subject: RE: Red River Valley song - origins
From: meself
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 12:09 PM

To my understanding, the Red River Valley melody is well-known in China. Don't know about Greensleeves. OTOH, most of the modern Pop music that "everybody knows" is virtually unknown, certainly among people beyond a 'certain age' - just as it is virtually unknown among people below a certain age in the West.

Subject: RE: Red River Valley song - origins
From: GUEST,Wally Macnow
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 12:27 PM

Margaret MacArthur traced the origin of the song to New York state and the original title and tune to "Mohawk Valley". She knew her stuff.

Subject: RE: Red River Valley song - origins
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 01:46 PM

Greetings Wally

It seems to be the Universal Fits all Song. Since everyone has a Valley or a River near by it is easy to bend the lyrics to your will.

" Just remember the Broad insurance Valley, and The loss control analyst who loved you so true."

And if there are Canals on Mars it will surely show up in a FILK some where, sometime.

Don