BS: Retrofit

Subject: BS: Retrofit
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 21 - 01:09 PM

Floating before our eyes here are desirable but unreachable visions of retrofits: a friend's neighbour has just spent 5,000 euro on solar PV panels and his cottage is toasty warm when it's 5C out.
We're told we should get new windows (25,000 euro), external insulation (35,000 euro) and after we've brought the little grey home in the west up to A3 BER standard, we should instal a heat pump instead of the gas or oil boiler to run the central heating (another several thousand; more if your radiators are not also the condensing kind).
Is the same vision floated where you are? Have any 'Catters done any of this?

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 21 - 04:07 PM

I need to have my foundation repaired before I even consider new windows or putting solar panels on the house. I have two heat pumps and they are pretty efficient (heating and cooling) and insulation in the attic. Those things I did when I first moved in. The foundation is the stumbling block - way expensive to think about right now, so the rest waits. I don't know if all of those changes would add even the amount spent to the value of the house.

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 21 - 04:30 PM

Really? Here they won't give you a grant towards the heat pump unless you've brought the BER up to the preferred level!

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: BobL
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 04:12 AM

My century-old house has double glazing, knee-deep loft insulation ... and solid walls. The only option I know of for these is dry lining, such as I installed long ago in my bathroom to great effect. But fitting it throughout the house would involve much more than an interior makeover - and too much bookshelf and cupboard space would vanish. So I'll wait until I'm gone and let the next occupier deal with it.

By the way, what's BER? In my universe it's usually "beyond economic repair".

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 05:36 AM

It's the Building Energy Rating - sorry, didn't realise this was an Irish thing, thought it was universal.
Here, the Government wants to bring all dwellings up to an A3 rating (third from the best); however, a State plan to retrofit the homes of the poor was a notable disaster. I don't know if any builders were sanctioned for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 06:50 AM

Our house is rated at B+ on the UK system now.

We have expanding foam insulation put in the cavity walls and some internal dry lining with insulation, the usual insulation in the loft floor plus insulation on the underside of the rafters as well. We also put any old carpets on the loft flooring parts as an extra.

We have underfloor heating (water pipe version) in some of the downstairs rooms, installed over the old solid floors as we had higer ceilings, plus some oversize radiators. Upstairs is normal size, but double, radiators.

We are on our second airsource heatpump, the first failed after about 10 years.

We have some solar panels and a wind turbine along with a battery to smooth out demand. If you get solar panels at the same time as a battery you get a charged a lower VAT rate. One main tng about the battery is that it comes with equipment to allow you to use power from the turbine and solar panels during a power cut. This means that we recently lost power for 3 seconds while the neighbours lost power for 8 hours. As we need power for our water pump this is a big consideration.

The turbine is a much bigger energy source than the panels. And when are you most likely to need extra power? On a dark windy winter's night!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 10:20 PM

The biggest retrofit we did was to tear down half the deck (the unroofed part) and rebuild the roofed section. The open part and some of the covered part was quite spongy to walk on as whoever covered it was carpeting insured that said carpeting was over INTERIOR grade plywood -- so it rotted away.

About three weeks ago a water heater went bad and the plumber wouldn't come because I had breakthrough COVID. It was finally installed last week and during the install it was discovered that the OTHER water heater (don't ask why there are two because I don't know) was rusting out its bottom. And tomorrow we go away (yes, we're cleared by the doctor) until the end of the month. The second water heater will be installed on November 29. So far, since we've been here, we've replaced the heating and air conditioning (it is high desert country and A/C is needed), the roof (from old, dry cedar shakes to a fire-resistant sort), renovated two bathrooms, had the basement concrete stuccoed, and all of the lights replaced with LEDs (rebate from the electric company involved). Oh, yeah -- a new garage door is probably on the books for next Spring, and did I mention that the insulation in the attic now EXCEEDS to recommended level by a factor of 10? Fortunately, except for the fact that some don't open we're getting along okay with the windows.

House: a hole in the ground and the air into which you throw money.

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 11:52 PM

Robin - Very interesting. And has all this brought down your home heating and cooking bills? Can you luxuriate in daily long hot baths?
Another question: I've friends who have a dacha and are thinking about putting solar panels on the roof. But they're only there the odd month or two - are solar PV panels feasible in that case, or do they or their technology need minding?

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 08 Nov 21 - 07:50 AM

We originally had a failing oil boiler when we bought the house, along with a defective log burner. There was a tortuous water system with four tanks in the loft, which froze in winter.

Our bills are now less than 1/10 of what the house originally cost to run. It is definately not up to passive haus standards though.

The turbine was set up when there were good feed in tarrif rates and paid for itself in eight years from those alone. Not such a good return n a new one now. It does need maintenace every year, while the panels just need to be kept clear of snow etc. They are on a frame in the garden, noton the roof.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Nov 21 - 12:54 PM

Sounds pretty good!

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Nov 21 - 09:28 AM

Retrofits here: the kitchen! Four years ago, we had it redesigned, gutted, and rebuilt from the studding in. It cost a bomb, and was worth every nickel.

I want to do something similar to the two upstairs bathrooms, but local contractors are booked solid, short of labour, and engaged in a constant struggle for materials.

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Nov 21 - 07:00 AM

Trouble with deep retrofits is that they save you a fortune - dropping your heating costs from ~€2,000 a year to ~€500 a year - but you have to be rich to afford them: modern windows and doors that don't leak heat; insulation to a high standard; PV panels to generate your own electricity. Here's the deal in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Nov 21 - 07:01 AM

Hit the Submit button too fast there - not only do retrofits drop your heating/cooling bill; they also make your house healthier - you can relax into a nice climate indoors rather than shuddering or boiling until you cave in and put on the heating or aircon.

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Nov 21 - 11:19 AM

Our oil heating is on all year round. Each radiator has a (Honeywell Evohome) radio controlled valve which will open and a boiler demand is created when the temperature drops below its current set point. In the summer months nothing (unless we override) is triggered and as things cool down, the boiler fires up to heat whichever room(s) need it. I'm not sure how much more efficient this is than a more standard system But I like the control it can give. Most rooms are on just straight day/night settings but I have my parent's bedroom set to give a boost at getting up and bed times. Sometimes, even in summer, we want a radiator to dry something on so I can say just turn the kitchen radiator on for a set time.

Our "on/off" debate here is really when to start/stop using the living room woodburner. The oil system doesn't cope with that room in colder spells. It's still pretty mild here so I haven't started yet but that time must be approaching.

Back to the OP. My parents did order a solar PV installation some years back but cancelled. The problem we had came when we read the small print and felt that "complications" could well lead to doubling the quote. It's not something that we revisited and wouldn't be doing so now with my parents in their mid 80s. Both, how long they will remain here and the effects of any upheaval while the work is carried out come into question here.

I could be wrong but I don't imagine an installation would be that straightforward here anyway. The meter and consumer unit are in a very awkward location inside a kitchen cupboard (a situation the electricity company is not that fond of) and I suspect that adding PV would trigger relocation and major rewiring. If batteries entered the equation, I haven't a clue where they could be located.

The nearest property to me is a big semi. The owners of one half do have PV installed but I've never asked how they've found it. Heat pumps cropped up in a conversation I had with the chap from the other half a few weeks ago. I learned that they were considering one but don't know where they went from there. I had intended asking him today (he calls round every Thursday) but forgot. I'll try to remember next week...

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 11 Nov 21 - 11:41 AM

Finding a location for the extra kit is definately a consideration.

We have:
a borehole (outside) for water with water treatment kit (inside).
A turbine with equipment to convert power generated to DC and then back to AC at the right frequency.
Equipment to regulate and direct the solar panel power.
An airsource (outside) with dual heating water/hot water tank (inside).
A battery with controller unit.
Normal consumer unit and meters.
Meters for the turbine and the separate solar panels.
Undefloor heating manifolds.

These all fit in the workshop, which used to be the garage (large single). They take up two walls of it.

We asked about a smart meter at one point - we didn't have enough room on the wall for it as they need a minimum clearance all around!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Nov 21 - 11:55 AM

Sounds like quite a set up you have, Robin!

One curiosity question. Is your wind turbine a house (or other building) mounted job or is it free-standing on a tower?

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 21 - 12:08 PM

it might all end in tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 03:47 AM

The turbine is on a 10 metre tower. We have a field so OK on planning regs to put it in the middle. Needs to be so far from other buildings, footpaths, etc.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 08:12 AM

Sounds really good, I'll never be in the position for that but in the right place, etc. I'd love something like your set up.

Another curiosity question: How far would you be from going completely off grid or maybe combined grid/mains systems are usually better?

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 12:23 PM

The house uses too much power to heat it to go completely off grid.

We generate about twice as much as we need but we would need a huge amount of battery storage to cope with windless days in winter etc. Our battery holds 13kwhours but I calculate needing about 10-12 batteries to smooth over enough. To afford that batteries need to be ten times cheaper at least. And we would need more power if we go to an all electric car. But who knows what breakthroughs could be on the way?

It could be that a practical fusion reactor will come along and make it all obsolete!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 12:39 PM

Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Retrofit
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Nov 21 - 11:39 PM

Ah, a fusion reactor - that would presumably solve all our filthy problems! Assuming it doesn't turn out to have a nasty downside like nuclear waste.