Is folk a dirty four-letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 10:08 AM

Derek Brimstone was a good entertainer, he entertained without singing top ten popsongs., as far as i remember
Alex Campbell was hilarious, but sang some trad material[ inever heard him sing cliff richard or Buddy Holly songs] , he understood what was folk.
The dichotomy for perfomers [and i speak only for myself], is that entertainment is there to enhance the songs that you sing, as an entertainer you should imo have respect for your material, once you start denigrating your songs to get a cheap laugh, you have imo got the balance wrong

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 09:57 AM

I'm not 100% sure on that, Howard. I have often said in these discussions that I am shallow and do not want to work for my entertainment. That is not strictly true I suppose. I did about 30 years helping to run a folk club and festival so there was a certain amount of effort! That aside though, when I feel I have to work to understand the music that is being played, I move on to something easier. It is not necessarily because it is traditional rather than 'light' either. I have seen at least 3 of the contributors on here (and a good few others) who all perform 'heavy' traditional music and I have no problem at all enjoying their work. I think they have all put the work in for me! They make traditional music enjoyable and that is not something everyone can do. When someone performs without entertaining it does become hard work to listen to and, yes, may give folk a bad name. It is easier to entertain an audience with popular music that they are familiar with and can sing along to than it is to make an obscure traditional song entertaining as well as interesting. I think most people go for the easy option!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 09:55 AM

There is something in what you say about performing to different audiences and adapting. But my point is that you have to stick to what you do best.
before the lockdown i was singing regularly in two community halls to senior citizens, but because i was in ireland, i could sing trad songs, because the irish are closer to their tradtions.
i did adapt, singing some songs popularised by luke kelly and also the clancy brothers, but i also was able to sing more esoteric material too it was a listening audience and i did not sing pop songs, absoluteley no need to murder buddy holly or englebert humperdinck.
why? sing musack that can be heard in every supermarket and music that is treated as wallpaper music.
I sing because i like the material I sing, I COULD HAVE BEEN A POP SINGER AND EARNED MUCH MORE MONEY. I chose not to.
Folk clubs have become a place where failed popsingers can live out their failed fantasies, it was never thus in 1966 when i first waked in to a folk blues club, neither was it like that at les cousins in soho in 1967, yes it was a broad church, but no body singing Buddy Holly, Or Cliff Richard

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 09:41 AM

Al, I think what you're forgetting is that many folk clubs were catering for a specialist audience. The uncommitted who dropped in expecting what they'd seen the Spinners do on TV were likely to be challenged by it. This didn't just apply to folk clubs - I remember ending up in Ronnie Scott's after a night out and being just as baffled as your friends were.

I don't see anything wrong with that. Any art form worth its salt requires time and effort to understand. You first need to cut your teeth on the more accessible stuff, which may then lead you to the more difficult and more challenging material. If Kenny Ball's Jazz Men on Saturday night TV hadn't prepared me for what the musicians in Ronnie Scott's were playing, that was my failing not theirs.

Someone with "The Four Seasons" as their ringtone may not be able to understand Schoenberg. Someone whose idea of folk music is "The Wild Rover" might struggle with a Child ballad. The imbalance arises when the wrong performer is put in front of the wrong audience.

There is a perception that folk music is simple and should be immediately enjoyable by everyone. Some of it is, but some of it is more complex and more challenging, and takes time to appreciate.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 07:55 AM

Thank you all for your considered and creative replies.

Its interesting that both Dick and Brian stress the importance of communicating with an audience.

In many of the folk clubs of Brum I visited and took my uncommitted pals to back in the 1970's - the style was actually confrontational. It was almost like a competition to come up with the most grotesque singing style. It was like 'repel all boarders'. Frequently my friends left the folk club totally bewildered.

To be fair this was a trend that was going through avant gard jazz and and acid rock at the time also.
I agree that to be Pavarotti or George Jones or Robert Johnson - you need to start early and stick to your last. However as financial necessity kicked me out of my comfort zone - as I went from folksinger, to country singer, pub singer, Irish theme bar singer, old peoples home singer - each time I gained something. Icouldn't do these jobs initially - but there were important skills to be learned.

In contrast I was really sad when Noel Murphy told me he didn't clean up in the great Irish theme bar explosion because the audiences ( abit of a stretch calling them that!) weren't quiet like in a folk club. And Doug Porter told me that Derek Brimstone had cancelled a a gig because he had to go on after a disco.

Like I say thanks for your insights

One last thing that resonates with me. Les Worral asked me to do a few spots for his festival of Scarecrows at Faldingworth in Lincolnshire. Must be about 15 years back. Anyway tin the time honoured fashion, the rain pelted down all day - sometometimes torrential, sometimes heavy sometimes semi trpical in its intensity. Key Largo had nothing on it.

So the cream teas were held indoors -steam coming off busloads of pensioners,
'Aren't they wonderful?' Les asked me as some kids (everyone under 40 looks like kids!) banged a hob nail boot, to a totally unfamiliar acoordion accompanied song, and two hundred and fifty pensioners endured a lugubrious Watersons style lump of unintelligibility.


I'm not telling this story to say - ain't I great God knows we're all old enough to have war stories of dying on our arse. But my feeling is that 'the tradition' - if there is one, it is more spiritual than anything.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 07:20 AM

I think that for most people now folk music is entirely alien to them. For about a century popular music has been largely based on American musical forms, in particular black American forms. The rhythms, modes, and many other characteristics of folk music are entirely unfamiliar to most modern ears. Most people will get excited by an Irish reel but most have no idea how to move to a jig or a hornpipe. We play unfamiliar instruments which make unfamiliar sounds. For most people it's remote from their daily experience of music, and they need to learn to listen to it just as they might have to learn to listen to Middle Eastern music, or jazz or classical music.

In England there isn't even the desire for a sense of national identity which makes the Scots, Irish and Welsh at least recognise and acknowledge their traditional music even if they don't choose to listen to it for pleasure. The English have ignored their own traditional music heritage, and are embarrassed by it when it comes to their attention.

The folk world itself has become too introverted, too ready to accept low standards of performance, and too stingy to pay a reasonable amount to hear good music. Most professional folk musicians do it for the love of the music, they may (or may not) make a decent living from it but no one's going to get rich. Is it any wonder that singer-songwriters like Ed Sheeran (reported worth £220m) or Katie Melua (£18m) are careful to avoid any suggestion of the "folk" tag?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 05:39 AM

I understand, just trying to explain to Al.
I did used to do four until late , the concertina part was intersting, I adapted a Blind Lemon Jefferson guitar part for a different song, to the Robert Johnson song, but I Should have got a blues singer to sing the vocals., bit difficult that on folk singers money

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 04:49 AM

Thanks, Dick, but btw I've never claimed to be a blues singer - though I'll sometimes do 'Bright Lights, Big City' or similar for a bit of fun. Didn't you use to do 'Four Until Late'?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 03:07 PM

With the greatest respect,Brian much as i admire your dexterity and ability playing blues on your accordion., which you do very well,
You are in my opinion a much better singer of traditional songs[ A VERY GOOD ONE IMO] than a singer of blues.
I recorded two blues on duet concertina on Boxing Clever, a concertina compilation, but I got a good BLUES singer, Pauline Abbott, to sing them.
Al, we have to decide what we are best at as singers., and stick to it. And can i make it clear Brian is not a traditional singer but a singer of traditional songs, which he sings very well, do you understand the difference?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 01:23 PM

'So how does this tradition thing work?'

Some interesting questions there, Al...

'Does someone say to you, by gum! you're a traditional singer?'

No-one ever said that to me - I just concentrated on the stuff I enjoyed the most, and then got asked to do gigs playing it. Like Dick, I would use 'traditional singer' to mean the kind of singer who had their songs handed down to them as part of the natural flow of things, rather than people like me, who set out to learn them in a folk revival setting.

'Do you guys feel differently to us who who play all kinds of stuff?'

Probably not. I played for many years in a band doing Americana of various stripes, and formed a mid-life-crisis rock'n'roll band for a while as well. The task is always to develop the material in a way that makes it an interesting challenge for the musician, and entertaining for the audience. My job description has always been 'professional entertainer', rather than 'keeper of the flame'.

'And more importantly - do you really feel its made for a good working basis.'

Musically yes - I never got bored with arranging trad. songs in different ways. Career-wise it's kept me going for 40 years and taken me to a lot of interesting places. Developing the educational / workshop side has been useful in terms of career - trad. fans may be a niche audience, but they are keen and often participatory.

'But I've always been a mongrel - picking up guitar riffs and songs here there and everywhere.'

Many of us (instrumentalists especially) possess that instinct, and I've played all kinds of different stuff in my solo set, never mind in bands. Peter Bellamy (himself a handy bottleneck guitarist) once told me that his approach was 'anything goes for the encore', but that he preferred to keep the trad' stuff as the core of his set.

'Has the idea of 'the tradition' worked for you. Has it made the best out of you as a musician and artist?'

I like to think so. Arranging old stuff for new audiences was, for me, always a more interesting challenge than writing my own songs (I did write a few, many years ago). And, though I can get a thrill from a falsetto bluegrass harmony or a rock'n'roll accordion break, nothing matches the intensity of a blood-and-guts Child ballad! I would also say that, for someone with my musical predelictions, folk gigs at which people actually listen to what you're doing are a great spur to musical development.

'And does it seem worth handing onto a next generation.'

That is a great question. My impression is that there was a great crusading spirit around in the 1960s, and it was still there among many of the pros and organisers when I started playing in the 1980s. People like Bellamy and Martin Carthy would always be telling you to look up Sam Larner or Harry Cox's version of this or that, and my old pal Roy Harris was truly passionate about a sense of mission. I did use to think that 'handing it on' was a sacred duty, but I don't so much now. There are plenty of talented young singers and musicians (some of whom even admit to listening to my old records) and they're well capable of finding things out for themselves without some crusty oldster telling them what they ought to do. Performing folk songs in an accessible style, while keeping the source material available to anyone who wants to pick up on it, would be enough for me.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 10:37 AM

Nick Dow, now there is someone who is an exception, many years ago I saw him playing in a pub[ john of gaunt?] in Lancaster playing blues[ he did not know i was there, i get around sometimes incognito] and he was good, in my opinion he is good as a trad performer too

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 09:12 AM

Al, it is my opinion that it is difficult to master more than one style[ which is hard enough, to try and sing jazz well, classical music well, blues well and trad folk well, if you stick to one style you have a better chance of getting one thing done better.
the old cliche jack of all trades master of none is apt

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 06:32 AM

You ask all the right questions, Al.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 06:22 AM

Al i am not a tradtional singer but a singer of trad songs , there is a difference
YES listening to tradtional tunes has made me a better player, and listening to tradtional singers has given me an idea of style, much the same as listening to blues singers, like robert johnson blind lemopn jefferson gives you an idea of blues style. its about listening to the roots of the music.
if you want to understand rock and roll you listen to the roots, it came out of blues, and to the early rock and rollers
. bill haley was an exception, his roots were country and jazz, his early years played in a band called the four aces of western swing.
Al it is about listening to roots, to get an idea of styles
"Has the idea of 'the tradition' worked for you. Has it made the best out of you as a musician and artist?"
Yes, in my case listening in my teEnage years to MissipPiJohn Hurt, and learning his guitar style, playing melody on and off the beat, and transferring it to concertina, influenced my accompaniments, my singng was influenced by listening to Harry Cox JEANNIEROBERTSON and loads of unaccompanied tradtional singers [ not singers of trad songs]

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 05:07 AM

So how does this tradition thing work?
Does someone say to you, by gum! you're a traditional singer?
Do you guys feel differently to us who who play all kinds of stuff?

And more importantly - do you really feel its made for a good working basis.

In my time I've played a lot of traditional songs - initially in folk clubs, then country and western, then Irish pubs and theme pubs, old peoples homes. But I've always been a mongrel - picking up guitar riffs and songs here there and everywhere.

Has the idea of 'the tradition' worked for you. Has it made the best out of you as a musician and artist?   I think if not, you have to work out the four letter word that has summed up your experience.

And does it seem worth handing onto a next generation.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 22 - 03:21 AM

bring back Mary Whitehouse, she will know, She did not like four letter words

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 09:12 PM

Ah Jim Mc(Mega)Fee - not at all popular with those dealing with him with his agent's hat on.
Not sure he did his stable a lot of favours.
I certainly stopped dealing with him when running the Folk Union One in Hull and never dealt with him when involved at Whitby.
A decade and a half of running large mixed engineering installations from Teeside to Hereford in the late 60s to early 80s (Dave Burland once opined that I was a Gypsy) meant I could get to at least five folk clubs a week most weeks. There were not many I did not enjoy although I did tend towards the more traditional clubs where there was a choice on any particular evening.
Happy days.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 08:39 PM

Of course Jim and Les Ward and Derek Grinell (over at The Bell and Pump) were fairly unashamedly showbusiness agents - although they booked folk acts also. Jim's club the Fox and Hounds was very successful. Jack Hudson told me that Jim booked him into a night club in Kenya for a month.

The great folk scare was over by 10 years - but the folk comedian business gave a woof of air beneath the wings of the professional folksingers.
Plus there ware acts that worked in Scandinavia and Germany. I remember Waterfall did some gigs in Holland.

It was a very diverse time. Barrie Roberts (who ran the Fitters) was always full of gossip - he told me about Free Reed going bust when it produced The Transports for Peter Bellamy.I think every one was excited by the breadth of vision of Peter Bellamy, even if they had reservations about buying it.

Victoria Wood was winning New Faces and appearing at The Bell and Pump. Fivepenny Piece were also on New Faces. And I heard The Spinners play The Bleacher Lass of Kelvinhaugh on Pebble Mill at One. The late Donny McLeod who introduced Pebble Mill at One was a folk fan and invited Jon Raven to play on the programme.
I think we knew the movement was getting away from us, but looking back - it was an interesting time.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 07:50 PM

Big Al - with regard to Brum's folkscene, I wasn't implying that it is in a parlous state; the point I was making is that folk clubs have changed in that there is less of a focus on traditional song.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 06:59 PM

Especially Chas Baird and Jim McPhee, but then I'm not sure anybody liked McPhee. I lived in Bearwood round the corner from Chas. He was my roadie in the 1970's.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 04:37 PM

Interesting... I was living in Brum fifty years ago and ran several folk clubs round that time, and attended all the others.

I'm sorry if Brum's folkscene is in such a parlous state. As you say fifty years ago, the scene was very exciting. Of course the bombs going off in the 1970's scared a lot of people out of the town centre. That knocked everything sideways for a long while.

If you think back. The scene was very fragmented back then the trad clubs of the time The Old Crown in Digbeth, The Prince of Wales, The Star, Ian Campbell's various clubs, Chas Baird's club. They weren't really a homogenous gang with a common aim. Frequently they didn't like each other very much.

I think I liked the clubs outside the city more. The Blackthorn, The Three Barrels, The Fitters Arms in Walsall, The Old Crown in Lichfield, Bob Lines's various clubs in Sutton Not sure any of them were very keen on me - still - no one is forced to love you.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 10:15 AM

"The best in acoustic music: contemporary and traditional folk, country, blues, comedy, jazz and standards"
This is the promotional description used by a well-established Midlands folk club. Whilst one might question whether any local club can offer "the best", there is little doubt that the rest of the sentence gives a very fair description of what you will find on one of their club nights. When I arrived in Birmingham, nearly 50 years ago, there were at least 5 folk clubs operating in the city centre with a strong focus on traditional song. This not to say that you would only hear traditional song as at least 2 of these clubs had residents performing music hall songs and "new" songs by the likes of Ewen MacColl and Bill Caddick. Now only one of these clubs remains- The Black Diamond. Whilst there are plenty of other clubs and singarounds in the local area, most are of the "anything goes" variety and traditional songs are less commonly heard than they used to be.
It is interesting that nearly all of these clubs still choose to call themselves folk clubs and that suggests to me that folk is not a dirty four-letter word; it's just that for many people now it has become a generic word for "anything goes" music.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 07:36 AM

And to you Nick, and good luck attend ye!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 04:49 AM

And Happy New Year to you as well Al! :=)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 09:17 PM

I think basically the problem devolves down to this:-

we'll have to see what happens after we're dead.......

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:31 PM

Personally I find it a bit irritating to turn up at a folk club and hear a procession of people singing the works of Paul Simon, Bob Dylan et al. That's not because I have a strong opinion as to whether or not they are folk music, it's because there are a million other open mic nights where you can hear that. My selfish preference is for the folk club to be a space where I can hear material that's more closely associated with the tradition, and talk to other people who are interested in it.

As to the decline in attendance, I started going to folk clubs around ten years ago, coincidentally at about the same time my other half decided to re-train as a vicar. It's remarkable how similar the dynamic is between folk clubs and C of E congregations. Both rely on a core of loyal but increasingly elderly people, and for some of those people, the religious/musical purpose of the thing has become a bit secondary to its being a social circle where they can meet up every week with their friends. And while they're both very friendly and welcoming environments, it's not hard to see why younger people might think "There's nothing for me here."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 01:42 PM

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:08 AM

Perhaps there is a Valhalla where they sing Three Score and Ten, The Nutting Girl round the campfire
the Nutting Girl was sung in The Blaxhall Ship
https://eafa.org.uk/work/?id=1340   BOY SCOUTS NORMALLY SANG GING GANG GHOLUEYS, round the camp fire

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 10:00 AM

I think that is true, Derrick. I started my teens in 1965 and, yes, got interested in folk shortly after via bands like Steeleye Span, Fairport Convention and Jethro Tull. It was not something my parents were into but my Polish Grandmother loved the voices of both Sandy Denny and Maddy Prior :-)

Yes, Dick, the decline in folk club attendances does nothing to indicate that they are getting things right either. Half full? Half empty? Either way there are more logical reasons for the decline in live entertainment in general than just a change in presentation. In fact, I suspect that the change in presentation followed the decline in numbers rather than the other way round. People trying new things to bolster attendances maybe? Cause and effect is never clear cut!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 06:55 AM

The unnamed guest was me

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 06:53 AM

Is folk a dirty word?
No.
Folk song and dance is of interest to a small part of the population,as is stamp collecting, model trains and photography.
It has a quite a large following compared to many minority interest groups and has several long standing and quite big annual festivals in the UK.Over the years I have been to several of the larger festivals and noticed that many of the same attendees were present at virtually all of them.The young men and women of the 1960s are now old and grey,but amongst the crowds are new young faces, just not as many.
The general public see the festivals as a colourfull diversion in what is a normally routine life,but will generate the odd convert.
In the 50s and 60s when most Mudcat followers were in their teens and early 20s it became popular largely through TV and radio playing groups like Peter,Paul and Mary and the Spinners etc and gained for a short period almost a minor pop status and was something your parents didn't do,always true of youth.
Like any such popular movements time moved on and many gained new interests, folk retained quite a large number of followers,but not as many as in the early days.
My thoughts on the subject,discuss

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:22 AM

The fact that folk clubs are not as busy as they used to be is not necessarily an indication that they are doing anything wrong." quote
   
niether is it an indication they are doing anything right, but is a fact thatthey are not so well attended as 50 years ago.
but how many acoustic music clubs have survived 50 years

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:08 AM

Perhaps there is a Valhalla where they sing Three Score and Ten, The Nutting Girl round the campfire ....a bit like that folk tale of yore....Heads Down! Tea breaks over!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:54 AM

who knows...? Its a bit like the lost tribes of the Kalahari. Perhaps all these fans of traditional music died in paroxyms of wanton pleasure having forgotten en masse the last line of The Molecatcher, and sudden recollection of that last line just slayed them.

I've often sat there yearning for something of that nature to occur.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:50 AM

Of course it is my opinion, Dick. As is your opinion. Both are subjective and both add to what are considered to be folk songs. You believe that a song written by Harry Chapin and one written by Alan Smethurst are both suitable for performing at a folk club. Others may disagree but I don't. I believe that some songs written by Cat Stevens or Jackson Browne are suitable. Others may disagree. There is no point in flogging this dead horse any longer. People will never agree on what they believe is folk music. The best we can hope for is a consensus where, on any given folk club evening, most of the audience enjoy most of the songs performed.

That adds nothing whatsoever to the opening question of course. As there are so many opinions on what the term folk music includes, which opinion in particular lends itself to becoming a dirty four letter word? As (I think) Brian pointed out earlier, some people dislike the modern singer songwriters while others dislike the traditional style. The former would say that folk is decried because of the inclusion of contemporary music while the latter would argue that it is sticking in the past that gives folk a bad name. I do not agree with either but can understand both viewpoints.

The fact that folk clubs are not as busy as they used to be is not necessarily an indication that they are doing anything wrong. Pubs are not as busy. Theatres are not as busy. Cinemas are not as busy. Economics and technology has a massive impact on everything.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:47 AM

Here is a quote from Jim Carroll, on the subject of the oral tradtion
Something I neglected to mention was what James Hogg's mother told Sir Walter Scott when she was singing him her ballads, "They were meant for singing, now you have written them down you have killed them" (paraphrase).
Apart from being a vital piece of evidnce in the literary/oral argument, that, for me, described perfectly the double edged sword that literacy was, regarding our oral traditions.
On the one hand, it helped immortalise the songs sung by the people, on the other, it eventually helped kill off the creativity of those people and turn them/us into passive recipients rather than creators of our culture.
A song set in print is by nature resistant to change;

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 04:21 AM

that is your opinion, nothing more, it is not my opinion. i think style has a small part to play but repertoire has a bigger part.
   MacColl encouraged younger singers to look at and listen to indigenous singers of the uk and ireland, co incidentally the folk clubs were full and people sang mainly trad material.
anything goes, more latterly, and the folk clubs are not so full. is this a co incidence, who knows but it is fact

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:22 AM

By the same writer

Carolina Moon

Interpretation and style have a lot to do with it

Us Gnomes don't have a government. We are anarchists

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:19 AM

the fact that i prefer The Shortest story, to little sir hugh, IS NOT RELEVANT

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:15 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcSlcNfThUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcSlcNfThUA
you do not speak for anyone else?, i thought you were the mps forGnomes

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:11 AM

BTW, Dick, you became an arbiter in this thread when you deemed one modern song acceptable while an older one was not!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 03:09 AM

Under the 1954 definition, the newer writers that Allan mentions could never write folk songs. Besides, I thought we had already determined that 1954 was useful for academics and collectors but of little use in real life.

I have no intention of destroying anything as I have already, apparently, destroyed folk music :-D

I have no idea whether "Tiptoe through the tulips" (written by Al Dubin (lyrics) and Joe Burke (music) in 1929) will ever become a folk song. I do know that I have heard "Carolina Moon", also co-written by Joe Burke, performed in a folk setting and it was well received.

As to the arbiters of folk taste, I don't know who they all are but they tell us, whenever these discussions arise, what is and is not folk music.

Like I have said umpteen times. No, not all music is folk. No, I cannot define it but if I enjoy it and it sounds like folk, I am happy. I do not speak for anyone else.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:45 AM

there is a 1954 definition , it may have flaws, but i doubt if it is going to be replaced.
Who are these arbiters of taste, are they the folk agents pushing their products.
popular music has a name it is pop, classical music has a name it is classical, jazz has a name.. jazz
folk has a classification too,
Are you intent on destroying all classifications?
and what exactly is a folk style, i thought there were many folk styles, if you believe style determines folk rather than repertoire then if i was to sing Tiptoe through the Tulips unaccompanied or with a concertina , it does not suddenly become a folk song.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:22 AM

I agree completely, Allan. Trouble is that the die hards will tell you that there is such a wealth of traditional material that there is no need for anything new. There is also the issue of deciding which new songs, singers and songwriters are folk and which are pop. I, personally, would include some (but not all) songs by David Gray or Ed Sheeran for instance. When I dared to suggest that I was jumped on from a great height and told that songs written for the mass market could never be folk. Even if performed in a folk style.

But I am going back to what is folk rather than answering the OPs question. Maybe it is linked though. Is folk a dirty word to some because the arbiters of folk taste have deemed that if it is popular, it cannot be folk?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:07 AM

You know when I was in my salad days (about three years ago when I was 69) I was just like you. Full of liberalism and all for personal freedom and the right to express yourself.

Nowadays, I'm a lot more grumpy and old. I'm not actually sure anyone who disagrees with me about the nature of folk music should be allowed to remain on the surface of the earth.

There has to be some standards, otherwise all would be anarchy.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 02:04 AM

I think the idea that a folk song needs to be written by persons unknown and passed down orally is clearly too restrictive a definition for what is widely regarded as folk music in Scotland. It would exclude the songs of Robert Burns, Lady Nairn, James Hogg, Alicia Spottiswoode etc plus newer writers like the Corries, Dougie McLean etc. Plus of course there are new fiddle tunes being written all the time by trad players.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,AC Wilson
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 10:08 PM

Somebody or somebodies, once a upon a time, came up with a song with a tune, likely including bits of other songs from before. Others sang and played, changed it along the way. When did it become traditional and/or folk? - there is no clean answer to that.

At 69 years old, my personal taste keeps expanding. Sometimes I listen to a traditional song; other times I listen to a brand new piece that has neither melody nor harmony. The two could even happen in the same concert set. Many musicians cross "genre" all of the time, because they enjoy multiple genres, as do I.

Here in Chicago, almost every music venue that I frequent (in these COVID times, via streaming) presents many different types of concerts. I would not have it any other way, because I personally enjoy listening to many kinds of music.

(Apparently, some "ancient Greeks" who complained that the kids were turning everything to shit. I pray to the universe that I never say that.)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,AC Wilson
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:35 PM

Re "pedestalisation": Is a "pedal steel" a folk instrument? Circle Y or N...

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 08:27 PM

What we need is stormtroopers in all the folk clubs.....

First time some scoundrel gets up and says....'this is a James Taylor type folksong...!'

Out with the rubber truncheons!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 04:32 PM

Back to the thread title, for every genre mentioned above:

+99% - Don't know, don't care. Rather watch football, +Yes. I do not like [X]. There's really no good way to tell the two consumer groups apart.

<1% - No. I like [X].

So. If you like [X]. You are, by definition, a tiny minority. Not even 1%. And you don't know, or care, or maybe even not like, the other +99% of not [X].

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 03:59 PM

Nick: How do musical genres interweave?

Like beach sand:

Country & Western: Chet Atkins first cover of Yellow Bird is the old French-Caribbean berceuse presented in an American exotica arrangement as Caribbean Guitar.

Bluegrass: A few years later Atkins covered it a third time as a member of The Nashville String Band (w/Homer & Jethro & Co..) It's what one might expect from that lineup but with a full string section arrangement by Suzi Ragsdale's uncle John. It's certainly not the,

Jazz: of Jamaican Monty Alexander or the,

Showtunes: of Inia Te Wiata or Rita & Sakura who sound nothing like the,

Folk: Seeger & Stringsinger cover of that same French melody they adapted directly from the,

Lounge: 'Original' which the Haitian-American composer took from the old D'Anjou,

Berceuse:.... rinse-repeat.