Is folk a dirty four-letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:40 AM

So, now all the silliness seems to have stopped, I have a question. What can we, the supporters of folk music, do to help repair the poor image that our mainstream media have created and perpetuate?

I remember the late, great Dave Weatherall (Jolly Jack) being particularly put out when I made the joke "good enough for folk". He pointed out that it was jokes like that that did nothing to help the poor image. He was right of course and since then I have tried my best to be positive about the image of folk even when faced with 'jokes' about fingers in ears, navel gazing songwriters or rustic Morris dancers.

I no longer run a club and have never performed professionally but there are plenty here that do one, the other or both. How do you help promote folk music and what do you recommend others do to help?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 22 - 04:30 AM

I was listening to Thought for the day and the speaker mentioned a new folk song The Lost Words Blessing written by Julie Fowlis and Karine Polwart, QUOTE Inspired by the tradition of Scottish gaelic incantantions.
a song based on tradtion and roots of scottish Gaelic incantantion
I find this intersting and it seems not unreasonable to call it a folk song.
The presenter thought it was ok to call it a folk song, and what great publicity for the writers of the song.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=the+lost+blessingyou+tube

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 08:55 AM

??? - Sorry Al :-(

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 22 - 05:31 AM

Filthiest song I ever wrote ave
That wasthe chorus
I shoved it opera

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 02:25 PM

Is opera a dirty 5 letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 02:07 PM

Blimey, Dave, you get around the whole planet in a flash AND can still find time to take in an opera... Kudos!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:16 PM

This is me signed back in again.

There is a huge difference between asking someone not to post and actually stopping them. Even if Jim does not chose to post, I do know that he still reads some threads.

And it still has nothing to do with folk being a dirty word.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,DtG
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:11 PM

This is me posting from an anonymous server in the USA using Opera browser

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Steve The Almighty!
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:11 PM

...And that's MEEEE, Dick!

(Steve Shaw to be precise - now back to reality...)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,DtG
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:08 PM

This is me posting from a server in Tirana, Albania

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,DtG
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 01:06 PM

This is me logged out, Dick

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 12:54 PM

Joe runs this forum, the fact that anyone[ who has not had their mudcat membership revoked] can post in the mudcat music section, does not mean that Jim is allowed to.
Until i hear otherwise from Joe , I am under the impression that Jim is NOT ALLOWED and not encouraged to post anywhere on Mudcat.

---

Actually, I would love to have Jim Carroll post about music at Mudcat. And there's nothing to stop him from posting about music. I just couldn't put up with his constant tirades demanding that other people be banned. Jim has an enormous amount of folk music knowledge, and I'd love to have him share it here.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 12:22 PM

He hasn't, Dick. Anyone can post in Mudcat Music section, whether they are logged in or not. They just cannot post in the BS section. Trust me on this, I made a good living in IT for 40 years. There are umpteen people without membership have posted as Guest or Guest:Name on this thread alone.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:10 AM

Sorry I'm the guest

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 10:09 AM

My apologies if I've taken this out of context Nick.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 09:53 AM

Jim has been stopped from posting on Mudcat

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 09:45 AM

Jim hasn't been stopped from posting on Mudcat. He has just had his membership revoked which means he can no longer post below the line. He can post as a guest on the music section and I know he keeps an eye on it too so nothing is being said behind anyones back. This adds nothing to the thread of course and may cause bad feelings, or even get the thread closed, if it continues, So I suggest we go no further down this path.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 09:21 AM

I've just scrolled back through the thread. I now understand Steve Shaw's post on 4th of January 9.14. Some previous posts concerning Jim Carroll have been removed, so it now seems that my post on 4th Jan 7.09 has come out of nowhere. In fact Keith it was a reply to the removed posts, had I read my post without that reference I would have agreed with you, it now looks unnecessary and I would not have included it here.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 09:05 AM

I just think your comments were unnecessary Nick. Jim Carroll has not taken part in this thread and couldn't respond whether he wanted to or not.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 07:17 AM

Thanks for that Keith, and you know that how?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:48 AM

Yes but sometimes people feel a bit too vulnerable to get biffed in the face. You can say well you should not involve yourself in a robust dialogue.
I've had that said to me a few times - so you crawl off to lick your wounds , whilst the shit slinger purrs contentedly.

But every time that happens your heart hardens a little bit, and mudcat feels less like a meeting place for human beings and more like a a gang of fuck ups hiding behind computers.
I noticed a load of right wing Americans depart soon after I joined. Not for what I said, but they got pissed off with being the butt of judgemental middle class types whose idea of ethnic diversity was watching a Sidney Poitier movie. In their own country the Americans felt like normal citizens like the Trump voting ones. But on here, they were the source of the River Styx.

If you only talk to people who agree with you - you won't learn much.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 06:18 AM

Well at least he did it to your face Nick Dow, Vic Smith and not behind your back.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 05:43 AM

Much to agree with in Nick Dow (04 Jan 22 - 07:09 PM ) Sadly I was another who became the butt of insults for daring to disagree with the entrenched opinions. After a good time away from Mudcat, I now find that the perpetrator has been removed from Mudcat.
Perhaps I will restart an engagement here

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 22 - 03:18 AM

Nice to see you back Nigel. Where have you been?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 09:14 PM

Jim Carroll is a legend among folk music scholars, dear moderator. He knows more than you, me and most other contributors here about our genre. No-one is criticising you for removing him and we should be able to talk about him. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:12 PM

So to summarise, the first five albums are more veering towards traditional song; the last two are primarily singer-songwriter-guitarists who are influenced by 60s/70s UK folk. I don't think any of them are shy about using the word to describe themselves ??

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:09 PM

Unfortunately, Jim Carroll turned most threads that he joined into a slanging match. He gave offence and then expected everything to be alright afterwards. His mind was closed and he was unreceptive to any other point of view. He was impossible to ignore, in as much as almost every time you posted, there he was trying to start an argument.
There are very few on mudcat who behave in such a way I'm glad to say.
There is one other, however I for one will not engage with him on any level since his last torrent of abuse in my direction. Probably right.
I think as Joe Offer has said it's desirable to be on your best behaviour on mudcat, and it makes for a pleasant experience.
Anyway, enough, and back to the thread.
How many times have we had conversations with surprised members of the non Folk public who have heard songs that we are familiar with and exclaimed in surprise 'That's Folk music! I didn't realise. It's good isn't it?'
Two of my next door neighbours when we were singing in the garden. (The other one fired up a circular saw!) Oh well. Not sure if that is an argument for marketing your self as Folk or not. Goes against the grain a bit.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:09 PM

Jim Ghedi

"An alternative & progressive take on folk and song-writing, exploring themes on social politics, history and environment."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:06 PM

Henry Parker

"Henry Parker's contemporary take on folk, which he explores via thoughtful yet deeply accomplished guitar playing, unfurls and moves much like the landscape itself - mirroring the unpredictable, yet beautifully flowing, rolling hills and valleys of his hometown, the Aire Valley in West Yorkshire."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:04 PM

Jake Xerxes Fussell

"Fussell is creating his own legacy within the long lineage of traditional folk musicians and storytellers that have come before him."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 07:00 PM

House and Land

"House and Land is a North Carolina based duo whose guitar, fiddle and banjo abilities transform traditional folk forms from the familiar to the strikingly fresh."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 06:57 PM

Green Ribbons

(Though this is cheating as the involvement of Frankie Armstrong is a clear link to the folk club scene)

"Green Ribbons is a project dedicated to the celebration of unaccompanied song. The current line-up features Debbie Armour (Burd Ellen), Frankie Armstrong, Alasdair Roberts and Benjamin “Jinnwoo” Webb (Jinnwoo, Bird in the Belly). Their debut release is an intimate collection of traditional and newly composed songs."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 06:53 PM

Jack Sharp

"Good Times Older is Jack Sharp’s first solo album, following 13 years fronting psych rock band Wolf People. This collection of 11 songs features Jack’s guitar and voice, recorded in an austere and spare setting, using mostly traditional music and words gleaned from his home county of Bedfordshire."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 06:50 PM

"How many of those regard or market themselves as 'Folk'?". Good question. Pretty much all of them, I'd say. Just not necessarily 'folk scene' folk.

Burd Ellen

"Burd Ellen is a collaborative project featuring Debbie Armour (Alasdair Roberts, Green Ribbons) and Gayle Brogan (Pefkin, Barrett’s Dottled Beauty). The group uses traditional song to explore and evoke dark landscapes and deep stories. Innovative instrumentation, drone and sound-wash support detailed vocal work to create a unique sonic atmosphere."

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 05:58 PM

'Over the last couple years I've heard great albums of traditional music from (off the top of my head) Burd Ellen, Green Ribbons, Jack Sharp, Jake Xerxes Fussell and House & Land.'

Links would be good but, to return to the OP, how many of those regard or market themselves as 'Folk'?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Spleencringe
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 05:36 PM

I'm surprised no-one picked up on that Guardian best folk albums of 2021 someone posted up the thread: 7 out of 10 of the albums are wholly or partly traditional music, and of the others, you can hear the influence of at least three different traditions on Yasmin Williams' brilliant Urban Driftwood.

I'd contend that outside of the folk club scene, there's still more rumblings in the undergrowth than you'd imagine. Over the last couple years I've heard great albums of traditional music from (off the top of my head) Burd Ellen, Green Ribbons, Jack Sharp, Jake Xerxes Fussell and House & Land. There's more to add to that list. Also great contemporary music rooted in folk traditions by players like Henry Parker and Jim Ghedi. Happy to post some Bandcamp links

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 02:35 PM

I suppose the spiritual thing is a bit unavoidable for me. I was bought up a Quaker and - my intro to folk music was Where have all the Flowers Gone -folk music versus nuclear destruction.

However much I reject 'the pale socialist of Gallilee'. I look for larger significance in the music and most other things.

And I think this is the start of the problem. We come to folk and jazz music - always from different positions.

I'm sorry we've lost Jim . To me, my Fathers house has many mansions and I should have liked Jim to be co-existent with us. I don't know how it happened - he denounced everyone he didn't care for - and the simple fact is that far more people have become involved with folk music through Peter Paul and Mary and Donovan than any of the stuff he champions.

In classical music - there seems to be a general acceptance that Mozart is a good guy, so is Bach and Beethoven, Wagner, Chopin. And you can go to college to learn what makes these guys the bees knees.

Whereas in folk, there is no such common ground. And jazz.....trad lovers are really intolerant of mainstream jazz. And as for bebop players - they used to be called 'dirty boppers' when I was a kid.

Probably my favourite Julian Bream DVD starts off with with JB playing John Taverner's Nocturne. Now this a piece of music I really don't 'get'.

I don't get it but it doesn't seem to cause friction. There does seem to be emnity in folk music amongst the various factions.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 02:06 PM

the finishing line of the above post
Subject: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Colin Randall - PM
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:47 AM



Is there a debate worth having? Is folk, indeed, still strong and resilient enough to rise above mainstream disdain? quote

so what is the relevance of steve shaws post

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 02:02 PM

it has nothing to do with pesky consumers, it is a small selection of listeners, but it has nothing to do with folk being a for letter dirty word,
my comment is not a criticism of the song., the song has no relevance to the original post
here is the otiginal postSubject: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Colin Randall - PM
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:47 AM

I posted this at my site Salut! Live yesterday and have received some interesting comments already. Maybe a topic on which Mudcatters would have thoughts. You'll need to
go to the site to see the responses but I'll repost the article below with apologies to US Mudcatters for my own piece being a bit Anglocentric -- I could and perhaps should have used American examples , too



What is it about folk music that makes some folk or folksy artists want to disown it and smug rockers want to sneer?

Think how many acoustic musicians and people associated historically with folk have sought to create distance. Briefly fashionable singer-songwriters seem to recoil in horror from being “pigeon-holed”. Folk, to many, is a dirty word.

Salut Live Froots ad - 1
There is nothing especially new in this. Maddy Prior, a product of the folk clubs of England who has made a living singing (superbly) traditional songs put to amplified accompaniment, once insisted Steeleye Span was a rock band.

And I have never forgotten one moment when the excellent trio Therapy - Dave Shannon, Sam Bracken and Fiona Simpson – played at my folk club, the Spinning Wheel, in Darlington, in about 1970.

Dave – sadly no longer with us – paused after a selection of self-compositions and at least one Cat Stevens hit to introduce a traditional song (it may have been Blackwaterside). “This," he said, "is one for anyone who strayed in here expecting to hear folk music.”

A young character in the BBC radio soap, The Archers, was once heard mocking his parents’ fondness for old Fairport Convention records.

Often enough, it depends on what you are prepared to label folk. But some venues are nervous, too, about being linked too closely with the genre.

Among the artists who have appeared or are due to perform at the Old Cinema Launderette in Durham are the Unthanks, Martin Carthy, Kathryn Roberts and Sean Lakeman, Jez Lowe and Peggy Seeger.

Yet the co-owner, Richard Turner, was quick – and right - to pounce when I sloppily omitted the negative from this sentence in a recent Salut! Live item: ”…Richard is keen to point out that it is not a folk venue”.

“It is not a folk venue at all,” he wrote. “We have artists from across the board.” But what followed felt like the twist of a knife:

      ‘We are getting less and less folk. There doesn’t seem to the audience for it’

In reality, this too is familiar territory. How often have we been told that while there is indeed an audience for such people as Kate Rusby, Oysterband, Bellowhead and its descendants, Show of Hands and assorted Lakemans (Kathryn Roberts and Cara Dillon included), that audience is a predominantly a middle-aged or older one.

Melanie_Safka_1975_cropImage of Melanie: public domain, via the William Morris Agency

Nor is the tendency to talk down folk a recent phenomenon. A grim introduction to Kat Lister’s interesting Guardian interview with Melanie (Brand New Keys, glorious Ruby Tuesday cover etc) Safka read: “Overlooked and underestimated, Melanie was framed as a winsome folkie and left out of the pantheon of greats.”

The subtext could not be clearer. Find yourself labelled folk and you can forget about ever being taken seriously let alone thought of as great.

I’d say that is or ought to be utter nonsense. So many of the artists featured at Salut! Live over its 13 years or so of existences ooze greatness that it is pointlessly difficult to choose where to start.

But maybe they succeed or win respect despite rather than because of identification with folk. Maybe I am just an unreformed and unreformable folkie living in the past. And maybe we should stop calling our music folk and just go on enjoying it for what and whatever it is.
Subject: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Colin Randall - PM
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:47 AM

I posted this at my site Salut! Live yesterday and have received some interesting comments already. Maybe a topic on which Mudcatters would have thoughts. You'll need to
go to the site to see the responses but I'll repost the article below with apologies to US Mudcatters for my own piece being a bit Anglocentric -- I could and perhaps should have used American examples , too



What is it about folk music that makes some folk or folksy artists want to disown it and smug rockers want to sneer?

Think how many acoustic musicians and people associated historically with folk have sought to create distance. Briefly fashionable singer-songwriters seem to recoil in horror from being “pigeon-holed”. Folk, to many, is a dirty word.

Salut Live Froots ad - 1
There is nothing especially new in this. Maddy Prior, a product of the folk clubs of England who has made a living singing (superbly) traditional songs put to amplified accompaniment, once insisted Steeleye Span was a rock band.

And I have never forgotten one moment when the excellent trio Therapy - Dave Shannon, Sam Bracken and Fiona Simpson – played at my folk club, the Spinning Wheel, in Darlington, in about 1970.

Dave – sadly no longer with us – paused after a selection of self-compositions and at least one Cat Stevens hit to introduce a traditional song (it may have been Blackwaterside). “This," he said, "is one for anyone who strayed in here expecting to hear folk music.”

A young character in the BBC radio soap, The Archers, was once heard mocking his parents’ fondness for old Fairport Convention records.

Often enough, it depends on what you are prepared to label folk. But some venues are nervous, too, about being linked too closely with the genre.

Among the artists who have appeared or are due to perform at the Old Cinema Launderette in Durham are the Unthanks, Martin Carthy, Kathryn Roberts and Sean Lakeman, Jez Lowe and Peggy Seeger.

Yet the co-owner, Richard Turner, was quick – and right - to pounce when I sloppily omitted the negative from this sentence in a recent Salut! Live item: ”…Richard is keen to point out that it is not a folk venue”.

“It is not a folk venue at all,” he wrote. “We have artists from across the board.” But what followed felt like the twist of a knife:

      ‘We are getting less and less folk. There doesn’t seem to the audience for it’

In reality, this too is familiar territory. How often have we been told that while there is indeed an audience for such people as Kate Rusby, Oysterband, Bellowhead and its descendants, Show of Hands and assorted Lakemans (Kathryn Roberts and Cara Dillon included), that audience is a predominantly a middle-aged or older one.

Melanie_Safka_1975_cropImage of Melanie: public domain, via the William Morris Agency

Nor is the tendency to talk down folk a recent phenomenon. A grim introduction to Kat Lister’s interesting Guardian interview with Melanie (Brand New Keys, glorious Ruby Tuesday cover etc) Safka read: “Overlooked and underestimated, Melanie was framed as a winsome folkie and left out of the pantheon of greats.”

The subtext could not be clearer. Find yourself labelled folk and you can forget about ever being taken seriously let alone thought of as great.

I’d say that is or ought to be utter nonsense. So many of the artists featured at Salut! Live over its 13 years or so of existences ooze greatness that it is pointlessly difficult to choose where to start.

But maybe they succeed or win respect despite rather than because of identification with folk. Maybe I am just an unreformed and unreformable folkie living in the past. And maybe we should stop calling our music folk and just go on enjoying it for what and whatever it is.

Is there a debate worth having? Is folk, indeed, still strong and resilient enough to rise above mainstream disdain?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 01:53 PM

Sandman: ...proves nothing other than the taste of those listeners in 2007...
Pesky consumers! When will they ever learn?

Brian: ...anything by Fairport Convention would fall smack in the mainstream of 'Folk'. I don't get upset about it.

When Fairport had their first whack at Yellow Bird they tried to claim Norman Luboff as a 'traditional arrangement.' Publishers everywhere just rolled their eyes and billed them for the standard mechanical rights. Second time around proper ASCAP credit was given to the composer + Alan & Marilyn Bergman (lyrics.)

If you're doing this for money, run your personal consumer preference definitions past the usual pop sausage grinders.

PS: There's some Bob Dylan & Joni Mitchell on those first few Fairport albums. Some Mudcatters would call that something dirty, others would not & most don't care either way.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 12:17 PM

I agree with Nick. To that small portion of the world at large that bothers itself with such matters at all (and particularly to 'Folk on 2' listeners), anything by Fairport Convention would fall smack in the mainstream of 'Folk'. I don't get upset about it.

And it is a lovely song!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 12:10 PM

I know we've been here before, but now we are minus Jim Carroll, I will dare to venture the opinion that the informal definition of Folk, is some distance away from the academic definition, (such as it is).
Folk, to most club going people, covers Traditional and Contemporary, and that'll do, end of argument. It's just for convenience sake. No amount of hair splitting, is going to bother them at all, and usually provokes a mass exodus to the bar, where they will probably start their own sing around, with impunity. (Pinch of salt required for this bit of imagery. You know what I mean, I'm sure...)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 10:43 AM

In 2007, the Fairport version of Sandy Denny's "Who Knows Where The Time Goes?" was voted "Favourite Folk Track Of All Time" by listeners of BBC Radio 2.

Either discuss or throw stones at me... :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 22 - 08:49 AM

Big Al: 'But my feeling is that 'the tradition' - if there is one, it is more spiritual than anything.'

Not for me, Al, nor any trad. musician I've ever met. It's a particular style of music ands lyric that doesn't sound like contemporary folk (or blues, or jazz, or pop), and those who enjoy it can get passionate about it. Nothing spiritual about it, though. I accept that some traddies in the past have been passionate to the point of intolerance but at the same time I can remember intolerant contemporary club organisers who would refuse point-blank to book what they called 'all-that-finger-in-the-ear-stuff'.

You do have a point though, Al, about singing styles on the tradfolk scene during the 1970s, a subject about which I've researched and written. The topic of 'mannerism' was debated vigorously in the folk press of the time, and pretty much every leading artist was accused of it at some point. Some of it did get a bit abstruse and weird. I once interviewed Will Noble - a singer who learned his songs traditionally and is notably free of folkie mannerisms - and asked him what he thought of the singing style in the 'folk scene'. Like the gentleman he is, he replied: 'a lot of them sang in a "different" way, shall we say... I suppose people were trying to get back to a way of life that they thought was around when this singing was going on.' I'm sure that 60s and 70s revival singers were actively experimenting with vocal styles, in search of an elusive 'authenticity'. It wasn't always successful...

I quite agree with what Howard said about finding the right repertoire/style for the right environment, and what Dave said about all the other factors that have caused a reduction in numbers.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 03:27 PM

Dunno, Dick. As I said before, cause and effect are never straight forward. Did numbers start dwindling because organisers started to introduce non-folk songs or did organisers try to boost numbers with non-folk offerings because numbers were dwindling anyway? I can only go off personal experience. As you know, at Swinton Ged did most of the bookings. Dave W, and sometimes Frank, joined him on 'stage' as the resident act. I did the door and paid people as well as organising publicity and performing a singers spot if time allowed. We did not change anything at all for years and while numbers were very high at first they did dwindle eventually. Frank no longer performs. Dave W moved to Scotland. I moved to Yorkshire. The singers nights still go on at the White Lion on Mondays but guests are now presented at the Conservative club in Westhoughton. I could be wrong but I think you may have been the last guest to be booked at the Lion.

It is far to easy to lay the blame for dwindling numbers on one aspect but, in truth, the situation is tied in to the economy, social trends and changing tastes as well as a myriad of other factors. Just like why some people think folk is a dirty four letter word :-D

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 02:26 PM

Simple song and tunes are jot necessarily easier to sing well.
Some singers find songs with stories easier to remember, and can remember a long song with an interesting song easier than sqay a song with not much of a story, it depends on the singer.
if floor singers are not singing folk songs, is That the fault of the organiser for allowing it as a policy?
When i started singing,it was difficult to get on as a floor singer ,we had to practise and everyone sang either American folk songs or folk songs from the uk or ireland
I am going to pose a question
is it similiar to dumbing down? is it, less people come to a venue because maybe the standard of floor singers is dropping, so the organiser allows anything goes repertoire and unpractised singers, those people who want to hear what they think of as folk songs well performed stop attending
or is attendances on guest nights drop because singers just want to hear themselves and only go to singers nights and for these people socialising is more important than music?
these are questions not statements

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 01:35 PM

It was a bit, Dick, but I'm used to it :-)

The point I was trying, and failing, to make about simplicity is that if the tune and/or lyrics are simple, people are more likely to sing or whistle it later. It becomes memorable. I think it was Sam Cooke that made the same point when asked why his compositions were so popular.

Bringing it back on topic, simple songs are easier to sing and remember so they are quite likely to be performed by some floorsingers. Whether they are folk or not!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 11:58 AM

Sorry Dave, that was a bit brusque, we have had an intersting discussion

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 11:13 AM

I did not say Entertaining is always about 'getting a cheap laugh, please do not lecture me on the subject of entertainment.
I am not intersted in what pop songs you like, as you say a tangent and an unnecessary one,
simplicity is neither here or there, because a pop song is complicated or simple, does not alter the fact that they are pop songs
folk songs can be simple or complicated country and western songs can be simple or complicated, so what

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 22 - 10:54 AM

Entertaining is not always about 'getting a cheap laugh', Dick, or getting any sort of laugh if it comes to that. Entertaining can be tugging at the heart strings. Telling an amazing story. Dazzling people with your skill. Many, many different things can be entertaining. Yes, you do need to get the balance right but with the best will in the world, if the artist does not entertain me in some way, I am not likely to pay to see them again!

I like Buddy Holly songs BTW - Even though they were a bit before my time. His music was simple and very entertaining. I cannot honestly say the same of Cliff Richard but I know that plenty of other people would. Not saying that either is suitable for a folk club but the simplicity of Holly's music certainly lends itself to audience participation and I have never objected to anyone playing it :-)

Bit of a tangent though so I'll leave that bit of the thread there!