BS: What Is Woke?

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 15 May 22 - 06:22 PM

It's come to mean that only in the eyes of people who are never likely to be woke.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: gillymor
Date: 15 May 22 - 06:58 PM

Well said, Manitas. It's a term that trump supporters use to denigrate people who are concerned with social justice. The fact that trump himself uses it to slur people that don't adhere to his corrupt, amoral world view makes me proud to be woke.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 May 22 - 02:38 AM

I've been giggling about Norfolk Police and their 'wokeness'. Imagine arresting an aggressive burglar, in Woke Norfolkese:
Police officer to colleague: "'Ello 'ello 'ello! It seems ter be troying ter run orf! Ken yew git them handcuffs on it?"
(Man, wearing dress and high heels, extends his arms to be handcuffed)
"Oim not an 'it' oim a 'they'. And moind me frawk, yer tearing it."
Officer : "Oooh, oim so sorry, person. Yew cum alonger us."
Monty Pythonesque!

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 22 - 04:12 AM

No Manitas - I'm afraid that is the common usage meaning of the term. Its got the same sort of vibe as 'liberal' used to.

If the criticism implied in the term doesn't worry you, well it should, because it loses elections...don't the names Kinnock and Corbyn and the methods they employed to lose against really bloody awful tory administrations stir any memories?

Poor people do better under a right wing Labour government than they do under a tory government. That's the choice - if you truly care about the poor choose leaders with a realistic chance of getting elected.

"Woke" means one more thing - perpetual opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 16 May 22 - 04:24 AM

It's a word that's being hijacked and you're just proving it. Also, your definition doesn't appear to be in the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 22 - 05:16 AM

I think you need to appraise yourself of the real meaning, Al. Here is a very good article on it by Tiffany Markman. Look her up. She seems to really know her stuff.

From the article

"woke implies social activism, nationalism, and collectivism. It suggests rage, passion, resistance, action; seeking to draw a line against the unacceptable"

Which is where you and I got involved in a heated exchange some time back. You believed that saying "People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston" and "then along comes the free movement of European citizens. they all want council houses, free education, free health care" was acceptable. I didn't. Was I woke to challenge you on that? Yes, probably. I had hoped that it made you think too. Has it?

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 22 - 05:55 AM

"Poor people do better under a right wing Labour government than they do under a tory government."

The gap between rich and poor widened inexorably during the New Labour years.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 22 - 08:15 AM

And it’s widened even more during the following Tory years. I would take any Labour government, no matter whether ‘left’, ‘right’, or ‘centre’ of the party, over every Tory government we’ve ever been subjected to. Which is why Labour needs to make itself electable, which it clearly was NOT under Kinnock and Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 22 - 08:19 AM

Oops..pressed the ‘Go’ button too soon!

…which it clearly was NOT under Kinnock and Corbyn. And it seems unlikely to be under Starmer either. What’s the betting on Wes Streeting?

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 22 - 08:29 AM

Kinnock did pretty well in 1992 (Was it?) and Corbyn did OK in 2016. Both events resulted in massive campaigns against them by both the right wing wing press and the right wing of their own party. Given support within the party and the tenacity to stand up to the Tory puppet masters I think they both could have achieved a political recentering but it was not to be and, yes, nowadays, we have to make do and mend :-(

Still, more a topic for UK politics than this thread I think.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 22 - 08:53 AM

well of course I could be wrong.

Suppose though someone had said Churchill wasn't fit to be in charge during the war, because he was chuffing on acigar whilst everyone else couldn't get enough ration points together for a packet of woodbines.

We KNOW them at the top see themselves allright. That's a given. Just what the fuck was partygate about.

This miasma of finger pointing and silliness is just so typical. Mean while a nuclear war is about to make Johnson's sausage rolls and prosecco look about as fatuous as its always been.

Someone ought to be making links with forces of democracy within Russia. Gorbachev showed us that they exist. It would make Johnson's pratting about in Churchillian mode look exactly what it is.

The woke people wouldn't recognise an important issue if it bit them on the arse. Starmer is frankly too stupid to realise that the possible conflagration of the world is more important than how toffs conduct themselves. He's not going to change that.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 22 - 09:20 AM

The woke people wouldn't recognise an important issue if it bit them on the arse.

I consider myself to be socially aware of both the rights of the oppressed and of global issues. They are not mutually exclusive. In fact, to say that because someone is considerate of the rights of people of colour, LGBT, gender or immigtation status, they cannot be aware of Russia trying to oppress Ukraine is a bit of a silly conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 22 - 09:24 AM

Oh, and 'Partygate' has nothing to do with anyone's prosecco, sausage rolls or cigars. It is all to do with the undermining of democracy by a shameless leader who is trying to stay in power at all costs. Much like Putin. But again that is a subject for the UK politics thread, not here.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 22 - 09:45 AM

Larger forces can always be to blame such as a lack of food and water due to climate change increases immigration and its woes. The more you look at one thing the more it will look like what you are looking for.

Accidents, misunderstanding and mistakes will plague any politician or political organization. Too bad it takes a genius to define the problem, identify the larger forces involved and create/choose the best solution.

Having the enlightenment to properly problem solve is woke to me.
To bad its not the way the term is used.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 May 22 - 09:48 AM

Name calling and turning the perception of positives into negatives is in the GOP playbook now. Name calling. Assigning nicknames. Making sure that anything that calls attention to social imbalance by denigrating it is classic Trump and his allies. Usually for Trump there is a direct line from what he fears to how he labels his opponents. "Crooked Hillary" from a man who is morally corrupt, accused of and eventually on trial for sex and financial crimes. Smear her before she can smear him. He definitely wants "woke" to be an insult.

Long ago the idea of "politically correct" met the same fate. The simple idea that you be polite and aware of your surroundings and not say things to offend others became strained. From one of the online dictionaries: Someone who is politically correct believes that language and actions that could be offensive to others, especially those relating to sex and race, should be avoided.

Woke is more comprehensive, with the many nuances one encounters with LGBT+ that involve actually sorting one's pronouns, so essentially political correctness has morphed into "woke" - aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)

There is everything right about that, but people who are threatened by criticism of their behavior and language will turn the term into a pejorative, hoping to cut off the activism behind it. Hoping to influence those who weren't paying attention to assume that what is happening socially is bad for them (because they still don't know what it is.)

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 22 - 10:38 AM

"Just what the fuck was partygate about."

it was a cover-up for the fact that the political Leader of the whole of the United Kingdom had lied to the Head of State, to Parliament, and to the entire UK population.

His cronies did it because, whilst they could not condone his lying and undermining our democratic system and whilst doing so, justify their own positions, passing off the spectacle of Johnson and his staff having a few bottles of wine and a cake or two as 'unimportant compared with the real issues' was easy, and carried no risk.

It's subversive, and it's shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 22 - 12:18 PM

Just saw a very applicable meme

THEY MAKE FUN OF BEING
"WOKE" BECAUSE THEY
THINK IT SOUNDS MUCH
MORE INSULTING THAN
BEING "ENLIGHTENED" OR
"EMPATHETIC." ALSO
BECAUSE THEY CAN'T
SPELL ENLIGHTENED OR
EMPATHETIC.

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 22 - 02:53 PM

Well God keep you in that mind as we run into another drubbing at another election.

A mild interest in the acquisition of power instead declaring they are how whiter than white, woker than woke would make refreshing change, as far as I can see. I notice its the same characters who picked a real winner with Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 22 - 03:10 PM

WTF are you on about, Al?

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 22 - 03:37 PM

Whiter than white woker than woke and now with 10 times the stain fighting power, Proud Powder is made for tough dirt.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 22 - 04:13 PM

Ditto Don!

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 22 - 04:40 PM

Seriously I get what he's saying. Power and money rules the landscape and seas. You should see some of Putin's mansions on the Black Sea such as Vladamir Castle.

White America is fine encouraging blacks as a minority to stick to it, you can make it but as soon as whites actually become the minority themselves its - time out - wait we support white nationalist killing of any and all blacks. A third of the US actually believe in the 'replacement conspiracy' that Jews are deliberately using immigration to attack white supremacy.

The crazy thing is the black population will stay the same proportionally. It is the Hispanics and Asians that will hold a majority.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 22 - 05:20 PM

Toxic masculinity doen't begin to touch the dog eat dog competiveness that teachs men the unempathetic path to rule and dominate by any means neccesary. US Presidents are often members of the collegiate skull and bones society.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 22 - 08:35 PM

skull and bones...?

Starmer is definitely an improvement on Corbyn, who seemed to espousing some totally unpopular cause every time you switched on the box.

You can't help but wish though he had some genuine empathy - a deeper insight into why people vote labour.

if you want 'woke', you should have stuck by Corbyn. He was the most woke man in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 22 - 09:50 PM

skull and bones


Perhaps the most inclusive political party would be the hypocrite party.
Everyone is a hypocrite about something. When people wake up they will overcome denial and realize everyone is a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 22 - 10:24 AM

In what way is that post constructive or helpful to this discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 22 - 01:19 PM

I think maybe he just wants to join in. Why not? It does no harm.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 22 - 01:46 PM

One huge impact that Mudcat has had on me is the realisation that some people are just not on my wavelength. I used to blame myself for not being able to understand but it is not that. It is no-ones fault. We just either speak a different language or think in different ways. Ne'er the twain shall meet! It all goes to make up the rich tapestry of life. Sadly, there are times when threads are pulled and the tapestry unravels but c'est la vie as they say in Wigan...

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 22 - 06:26 PM

The thing is, Al, he thinks we are all hypocrites. I try very hard to not be a hypocrite, possibly failing many a time. But the message I'm getting is that thinks he's a hypocrite, and can't bear to think that we are not all in the swamp with him. The remark is, quite simply, not constructive. I'm perfectly capable of examining my own conscience, and I certainly don't need it to be examined by people like him. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 22 - 02:11 PM

I agree with Miss Manners that hypocrisy is a social skill.

Government by people who hide what they really think is a hypocracy. Or is that government from underneath, or by syringe?

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 May 22 - 07:00 PM

the author of Waking Up    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dC_nRYIDZU
PS
Our carbon footprints make us all hypocrits.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 22 - 07:22 PM

I think you need to find out what "hypocrite" actually means. I'm a hypocrite if I preach one thing yet behave against that thing knowingly and brazenly. Boris Johnson is a hypocrite because he stood on a platform and told us that we mustn't mix socially whilst holding parties in Downing Street. I'm not a hypocrite if I have to act against my principles because the government, or even social mores, requires me to or because I would suffer greatly if I didn't. If you feel that you're a hypocrite, good for you. But it is not up to you to say that we are all hypocrites. We may be trying our best and falling short at times. But please keep your generalisations to yourself and try to assuage your own guilt and leave the rest of us out of your personal horrors. You are certainly not the kind of person that I would ever choose to throw in my lot with.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 May 22 - 08:54 AM

I've just seen a photo online of a police officer in Cambridge wearing a special helmet decorated with rainbow colours to declare his support of LBGTQ. I just can't imagine this being accepted by the upper echelons of the Police Force. It's making a mockery of their role. Why don't they stop this nonsense and go out to stop crime?

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 22 - 09:35 AM

We are all sinners - is the same. I know you alone are above all that.

You may be doing your best to sow l'haine but you are running a bit thin lately. Try pretending I wronged your father. If you are going to be a hater be a good one. You could really do a much better job pf deluding yourself in your nonsensical screeds..

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 22 - 09:51 AM

Here is a woke guy we can both like Lee Cronin

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 22 - 10:25 AM

When you can not change your mind you are a leaf floating in a river, you are predictably unpredictable with no substantial free will.
The current and wind will eventually push you to the sticky river bank where you float no more.

Being woke is also learning how to control your senses. What is amazing is that you can train your emotions just like your senses. I would include emotions as part of our sensory apparatus just like premonition is a 6th sense. This concept expands our senses instead of limiting them.

I'll take all the nondeterminalism and randomness to crack open problems that others have given up and fall back on old dogma.
Think of assembly be it chemical or subatomic and you will begin to see new rules to predict life in the coming and entropy in the going.

Now this is a better screed than Steve might think of but predictably he would say "no its not"

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 May 22 - 10:56 AM

I know when it's time for my Morrisons ultra thick toastie bread, butter and jam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 May 22 - 12:19 PM

well I like the idea of the gay lib policemen. The Russians are nasty to gays as well as Ukranians

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 22 - 02:20 PM

So does supporting LBGTQ hinder your ability to stop crime?

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 22 - 03:54 PM

"Now this is a better screed than Steve might think of but predictably he would say 'no its not'"

No I wouldn't. I'd say "No, it's not."

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 22 - 08:32 PM

ha ha'' The cop sounds like a great character.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 May 22 - 08:46 PM

This age may be a true renaissance as we see many of our presumptions of truth that are being disproved. The example of assuming we have a brain with a reptillian core with an emotions layer with a cerebrum for a higher control. This old fashioned notion has effected the way law is written and prosecuted. The evolution of the brain is shown to be much different by way of our gene evidence. That is not to say that predation gave rise to an evolution of thinking in animals that ate other animals and had to determine "will this eat me or will I eat this?"

Brains of some other species are remarkable and not as instinctive as we thought. Only humans can convey meaning and emotions around the world without being seen or heard with mere words. Whales had low frequency long distant communication until the oceans have become too noisy with human ships.

Social and market assumptions regarding monopolies and just in time production and distribution systems needs revamping as the pandemic has shown. Even the US miitary is finally calling a spade a spade when it comes to real mysterious objects.

So the false old timey dogmas may be changing faster than in previous decades. Thats a woke I hope we get but with the controvery over a simple mask in a pandemic, it does not give me hope regarding self sacrifice and behavior change to reverse climate change,. Thankfully many other changes yet to come should come. When tethers are removed from the brain as with psylocybin there is even more creativity.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 May 22 - 04:01 AM

Supporting LGBTQ doesn't stop an officer from fulfilling his crime-stopping duties, no, but it's all about authority and dignity. Prancing about in a flamboyantly decorated rainbow helmet just isn't appropriate.
When I was a schoolteacher, I always liked a bit of fun to keep my class interested and alert. But if I'd appeared at the school wearing a silly hat or a hula-skirt or something, my authority and position would have been compromised. I was Head of Department, so had other teachers under my leadership too.
When I was young (millions of years ago) everyone respected the Police, and always replied with "Yes Officer." etc. I just can't imagine the reaction if a policeman had appeared in this get-up!

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 May 22 - 09:03 AM

"Prancing about in a flamboyantly decorated rainbow helmet just isn't appropriate"

Absolutely, it's virtue signalling nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 22 - 03:26 PM

I'm afraid time moves on and we have to roll with it.
My Dad was a cop in the 40's 50's and 60's - and in that time homosexuality was illegal. P art of his duty was staking out the toilets in the park , where the towns gays used to do their cottaging.

I loved my Dad and cherish his memory but theres no doubt about it - by todays standards, he was homophobic. Because of the thoroughness with which my Dad and his colleagues did their job, there is a residue of hatred and distrust between gays and the cops. Putting a few gay characters in TV police series is not going to solve this.

Overtures have to made to overcome generations of distrust and hatred. As to the cop in question, I say more power to his tutu.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 22 - 04:39 PM

”My Dad was a cop in the 40's 50's and 60's - and in that time homosexuality was illegal.”

Homosexual acts between males, even consenting adult males, was illegal, but not homosexual acts between females. It’s always struck me as very strange, not to mention extremely unjust, that Gay men were denied the right to follow their natural sexual instincts and preferences, whereas there were no such constraints on Lesbian women.

Thank goodness we live in considerably more enlightened times today (although homophobia still rears it’s ugly head from time - including, unfortunately, on this forum).

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 May 22 - 05:39 PM

Can blue men sing the whites,
or are they hy-po-crites ...

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 22 - 05:40 PM

Oliver Sacks knows all about it.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 22 - 09:22 PM

Well I don't know about the copper's rainbow helmet, but I do know that some of the politicians who drew up our strict lockdown rules were at a party wearing party hats while the rest of us, unlike them, were following the rules. I suppose that the copper was still able to go out to stop crime, whilst the politicians were, well, getting pissed.

Subject: RE: BS: What Is Woke?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 22 - 05:57 AM

100!