BS: Bread

Subject: BS: Bread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 22 - 05:31 PM

A neighbour of ours has been making bread in a bread machine. The bread really is nice and she gives us a loaf every now and then.

She reckons its really easy and even I could make bread if I got a machine. I tried before (without a bread machine) and results were time consuming and didn't taste all that good.

What experiences have you lot had? Is it easy? Worth doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 May 22 - 05:37 PM

Yes, Big Al, making bread the old-fashioned way requires
that the dough be allowed to rise, then punched back down, at least once.
This does make the whole thing time-consuming.
I was a young lady -- a long time ago -- when I tried making bread.
Of course I had two generations of extended-family women about,
like my great-aunt Isabelle who was not exactly a superb cook
but she knew what was what, and gave me courage.
Besides, this is baking.
Baking, as any cook worth their salt will tell you,
is an exacting business, requiring precision.

And, if I say so myself, everybody thought the bread tasted good.

I've never baked bread with a machine;
the fact that baking requires precision
suggests that mechanizing the process would work,
provided that whoever built the machine knew what they were doing.

Plenty of below-the-BS-line Mudcatters fancy bread machines,
and they ought to have something to contribute to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Helen
Date: 22 May 22 - 05:48 PM

Back in 1999 after we were just married, we bought a Breville bread machine. We use it a lot on a fairly regular basis. It has been easy and the results have been good. The instructions are easy to follow and the recipe book covers a lot of types of bread and dough and our machine also has a jam making function.

We also use it to make pizza dough and Hubby has been perfecting the art of making sourdough bread, which is a longer and more complicated process - not for beginners, I think. I paid for him to go to a sourdough breadmaking class a few months ago and it made a lot of difference.

(The class was run by a descendant of Arnott's biscuit company which started production in Newcastle NSW, Oz in 1865, and then had a factory in my home town of Maitland. Sorry, back to the story!)

I just did a search of all Mudcat threads on "bread" because I know there was at least one discussion about bread making machines, but there are a few threads in the non-music section which are probably worth reading.

Our machine is still going strong after 23 years. It's one of the most useful appliances we own, and there is nothing quite like the smell of fresh baking bread wafting through the house. We don't always bake the bread in the machine. Sometimes we use it to make the dough and then bake the bread in the oven.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 May 22 - 06:37 PM

This is tempting me to get a bread machine (not the band, the baked goods). My problem would be slicing it -- I didn't have a knife sharp enough for my last attempt, and it's still in the garden by the bird feeder, uneroded by 18 years of snow, rain, and storm.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Helen
Date: 22 May 22 - 06:46 PM

I said this in another thread, but I still think it's a good tip.
Subject: RE: BS: Bread maker problems, 14 Feb 09 - 07:47 AM

On one of the threads here, or on a recipe thread somewhere, I found the one piece of advice which made a big difference to the texture of the bread in my bread machine. The advice was from a professional baker.

All the recipes in the books which come with machines with timers are based around, e.g. setting it up the night before so you can put the timer on and have fresh bread when you wake up. This is why the dried yeast is just thrown in with all the other ingredients.

If you are not using the timer, then while you are organising the dry ingredients use about half a cup of the milk or water, heat it to lukewarm - not hot - then dissolve about half a teaspoon of sugar or honey in it. Then stir in the recommended amount of dried yeast. Let it stand in a warm place until it gets frothy and then pour it into the dry ingredients in the bread bucket as the last ingredient. To keep it warm I put some hot but not boiling water in a dish and set the cup into that. Too hot and it can kill the yeast.

Make sure you adjust the total amount of milk or water and sugar, to take into account the amounts you use for the yeast.

If you are using the timer this probably won't work at all because by the time the breadmaker starts the yeast will have sunk.

But after I started doing this my bread has consistently turned out well.

P.S. For my favourite recipe I start frying a medium to large onion to golden brown colour and add it to the dough, while it is still mixing in the first stage but after it has all mixed together into a ball, i.e. just before the machine stops mixing and starts the rising process. The recipe uses a teaspoon of sugar but I use the half teaspoon in the yeast/milk mix only. If you didn't tell people it had onion in it they probably wouldn't pick it. It has a slightly sweet flavour but is not savoury. Yummy with just butter on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Jeri
Date: 22 May 22 - 06:47 PM

Rap, with the former, all you need is the air you breathe.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 May 22 - 07:00 PM

A machine like our Panasonic has a separate compartment for the dried yeast. The yeast only gets added to the mix after the machine has given the other stuff a bit of a mix (and possibly a little bit of heating - I'm not sure there).

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Donuel
Date: 22 May 22 - 07:08 PM

We had best results in the final baking phase by transferring the bread to an oven.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: leeneia
Date: 22 May 22 - 08:18 PM

I love making bread in a bread machine. I'm on my third machine - the first was given to me by somebody downsizing, the second came from a thrift shop, and the third has lasted several years so far. All the machines produced good bread using the directions in the manual.

I make a lot of cracked-wheat bread, which offers lots of fiber.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 22 - 09:07 PM

I have a machine sold years ago by DAK (a catalog for electronics popular in the 1990s) that was made by Welbilt. When the kids were little and in school I would set it up on the timer, load ingredients, and have it set so it was blowing air (that smelled like fresh baked bread) when it was time to get up. We went through that pretty fast, so the odd round shape of the pan wasn't too much of a problem. If you don't use the bread very quickly it seems to dry out faster than bread baked in a regular loaf pan.

Over the years I've shifted to letting the bread machine do the mixing and kneading and because I put it on the "manual" setting it stops once the second rising cycle is over. I roll the dough onto a lightly floured counter, shape it and put it into a buttered loaf pan.

I also make yeast dinner rolls, and again, I let it do the work and when the second rise cycle is over I cut the dough into about 2-dozen pieces, shape them, and they rise and bake on a cookie sheet.

The bread is usually 1 cup whole wheat to 4 cups of unbleached white flour, so it's a good-sized loaf.

My old bread machine finally gave up the ghost so I took it apart and kept the lid, the pan, the beater bar, and fit them onto an identical machine from the thrift store that was great except there was a crack in the plastic trim that held the glass dome in place.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 May 22 - 09:14 PM

We've had the same Panasonic machine for donkey's years. We only ever make a "ciabatta loaf" or a 60/40 wholemeal/strong white loaf. I won't pretend that the bread is as good as earth-mother bread, but it's pretty good and is much better than shop bread. We use organic flour only and we reduce the salt. The acid test is the bacon butty. We are never dissatisfied.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 22 - 01:29 AM

We had a bread machine, I forget what brand but it was a well-known one. It was a load of garbage. Every loaf we made had the metal ‘paddle’ embedded in its centre, it was under-baked at one end and rock-hard at t’other. We persisted with it for a while, expecting to ‘get better’ as we gathered experience with it. After maybe nine or ten uses, the lid warped and it was impossible to maintain a seal.

An absolute poile o’shoite and an expensive mistake, consigned very quickly to the local tip.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Helen
Date: 23 May 22 - 01:36 AM

Yes, but, Backwoodsman, did you try making the dough in the machine, letting it rise and then putting the dough in a tin baking it in the oven? Hmmm??!! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 22 - 02:03 AM

We followed the instructions in the booklet that came with the machine, Helen. We were both working 60 hours a week at the time, we didn’t have the time or the energy for fannying around.

Since then, we’ve bought our bread at our excellent local bakery - they really do know about bread-making!

Mrs Backwoodsperson tells me it was a Morphy-Richards, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Helen
Date: 23 May 22 - 02:50 AM

Just funning you, BWM!

It took a while for us to work out which recipes seemed to get the best results so that needs time and patience. We don't have a good bakery nearby and we didn't mind spending a bit of time finding good solutions. Horses for courses.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 May 22 - 03:05 AM

We had a Russsel Hobbs one that was prone to embedding the paddle a long way into the loaf. It did bake a nice loaf though. We scrapped it after a few years when the metal clips it used no longer reliably held the bowl in place.

The Panasonic we've had for a few years now, is the best we have owned and we get the most consistent "same loaf every time" with this one.

I think that with any bread maker, you may well find that you want to experiment a little with the recipe ingredients (eg, a little less salt, a touch more yeast, etc.) to arrive at something that suits you and the machine best but, in my limited experience, you shouldn't be wasting loaves and ingredients doing this. A loaf that say hasn't risen quite as far as you'd like should still be quite edible.

That said, I don't think that any tinkering would have helped BWM. His machine does sound like an all round disaster from day one.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 22 - 03:55 AM

Yep, it was! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Stanron
Date: 23 May 22 - 04:26 AM

A year or so ago, after reading one of these threads on bread machines I remembered that I had bought one, maybe ten tears earlier, used it once and put it on a shelf. I dug it out, found a PDF of the manual online and tried it out. It all went swimmingly up until the baking stage. Them all the mains ring tripped. Lights, computer, TV, the lot. Off. I unplugged it and reset the fusebox, found a bread tin and baked it in the oven.

It was smaller and denser than shop bought bread and saltier than I would prefer but otherwise very nice.

Bread hasn't been part of my diet for many years. There are too many carbs for my largely inactive lifestyle. I had half a slice a day until it was gone and then went back to my bread free regime. The machine went to a nice Indian man who called asking if I had any scrap he could have. I gave him the bead maker, an ex microwave and an air fryer that had never worked and had been refunded without a return requirement.

I occasionally do a kind of soda bread with gram flour but mostly get all the carbs I need from vedge and beans. I prefer my thinner waist line.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 22 - 06:46 AM

I've heard several people complaining about the paddle getting stuck in the loaf. This has never happened with me over hundreds of loaves. First, the paddle must be incredibly thoroughly cleaned after every use. No residue left whatsoever. Easier said than done. Second, the paddle has a non-stick coating that doesn't necessarily look like one. A few years ago I noticed that the coating was wearing off mine. I bought a new one from Panasonic: £17. Ouch! You still get a hole in the bottom (of the loaf - duh) that affects a couple of slices slightly when you cut the bread, but I regard that as a relatively minor point considering that the bread is better quality, is cheap and that you know exactly what's gone into it.

By the way, I've experimented a bit and I've found that I don't need to add vitamin C to the flour for either my 60:40 loaf or my ciabatta loaf. It's very expensive and is a bit of a waste of money. Maybe it works for 100% wholemeal, but we prefer our bread to have that lighter texture that a proportion of strong white flour provides.

Another point is that I always mix the dry ingredients (except for the yeast - don't ask me why...) together thoroughly in a bowl before putting them into the bread machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 May 22 - 07:19 AM

I think the paddle getting stuck is more a matter of a design fault with some machines.

I've never used vitamin C nor remember seeing it asked for in any recipes that came with the machines. Like you, we prefer a (up to 50/50) mix to a plain wholemeal loaf.

The order of wet/dry ingredients for our Panasonic is different to the order for our previous machines.

The others asked you to add the liquid before adding the dry ingredients. I think the yeast would go on last to avoid contact with the liquid until the mixing started.

This Panasonic tells you to add the dry ingredients before adding the liquid. I guess they feel that gives a better mix but is only possible with (unless you wanted to do it manually) with a machine that times its own adding of the yeast.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 May 22 - 10:19 AM

I've made my whole wheat bread so often that I tick off the list of ingredients in my head when I'm ready to start it to be sure all is there: yeast, flour, salt, sugar, oil, water.

I'm currently not eating much bread because I'm making a concerted effort at losing weight, now that the thyroid is back in kilter (Rx). Bread is the number one culprit for adding too many calories (closely followed by rice and pasta). Once I hit my target weight it will resume being part of my diet, but will be monitored.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 May 22 - 10:31 AM

I have a bread machine and use it solely for kneading the bread, it takes all the effort out of the process. As john Freeman states above the paddle is a pain so I take the mixture out of the bowl and shape it, or plait it or put it in a bread tin to bake.

There is one recipe I tried that was kneaded and left to rise on no fewer than four occasions that took over 13 hours to make one loaf ......... it was very good though.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 22 - 12:01 PM

got a sneaking feeling that BWM and I are made of the same clay.

Spend too long playing the guitar to piss about with bread machines.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 22 - 12:19 PM

Could have a point there, Al! :-)

It’s all too much farting around, when it only takes me fifteen minutes to nip to Teasdale’s and fetch one of their perfect whole meal loaves, a couple of their Lincolnshire Sausage Rolls (the best sausage rolls on the planet), and a large curd-tart. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 May 22 - 12:23 PM

Cut from the same cloth?

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 May 22 - 11:32 PM

It's only a short drive to Panera, where we can get bread AND lunch or dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Charmion
Date: 24 May 22 - 11:38 AM

Edmund had a bread machine when we got married back in the day, and I used it exactly once. Its capabilities were no match for my two hands and large mixing bowl, and it irked me that its recipes called for fancy additives such as malt syrup and extra gluten. Also, the loaves it produced were not a convenient shape for sandwiches. What's more, I had a wide range of bread recipes that worked very well when made the 19th-century way, but could not be adapted to the machine. So the machine left the building.

We made our own bread for more than 20 years, with exceptions only for styles -- such as sourdough pumpernickel -- that other people made better than we could.

I stopped baking when Edmund died, having only myself to feed. The other day I finally gave away the baguette pans to a neighbour who bakes several times a week. God alone knows what he does with it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 May 22 - 12:11 PM

Raggy, it doesn't hurt that the dough takes that long to rise. I have a couple of recipes that intentionally use very little yeast but require a long rising time, so you have to plan way ahead if it's for a meal.

A friend of mine has a book of no-knead breads and has given me a couple of loaves. It's very good. I've prowled through my phone photos because I finally took a shot of the book last time I was over at his house. Bread Toast Crumbs: Recipes for No-Knead Loaves & Meals to Savor Every Slice: A Cookbook by Alexandra Stafford. The Kalamata loaf is marvelous. The main thing for these recipes is to have the right size (about 1 quart) of Pyrex bowl for it to rise and then bake in.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 May 22 - 12:49 PM

I have a memory of my sister getting a bread machine and mom and I were visiting, and I was scarfing down delicious homemade bread and mom, a total foodie, was kinda just pushing hers around on the plate. With sister out of earshot, mom leans over and, in her Hungarian accent, says When I was a child, only the poorest of the poor made their own bread. Our *servants* (she sneered) bought their bread.

I didn't even. I just ate her bread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Charmion
Date: 27 May 22 - 12:40 PM

Oh, Mrrzy, your poor mother. So adrift.

Freshly baked bread is one of humanity’s greatest achievements, and making it yourself (by whatever method seems best) is a fine way to upgrade your own day and that of everyone you might be feeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 22 - 01:20 PM

If you have guests coming for a meal, the most welcoming thing you can do is bake a loaf just ahead of their arrival so they walk in to the smell of fresh baked bread. That and a pot of soup and everything is right with the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Helen
Date: 27 May 22 - 01:41 PM

Or home made pizza. For family lunches we sometimes make pizza dough, and prepare choices of toppings and everyone makes the pizzas to their own liking. Hubby & I have not had bought pizza more than a couple of times in the last 20 years but we do have it at home on a fairly regular basis. We're making it tonight.

Not buying pizza meant that as soon as I saw "Pizza Hut" on my bank statement it stood out like it was in neon lights, plus the chocolate shop in Atlanta, Georgia. Someone must have cloned my credit card number, so then I had to block the card and wait a couple of weeks for a new one. Being cardless is a strange phenomenon, these days. The bank refunded my money.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 22 - 02:07 PM

Yes! I make pizza dough (my favorite is one from Martha Stewart Living—Chris Bianco's Pizza Dough).

When I have guests I make it the way you mention - because there are always a mix of meat eaters and vegetarians at most of my meals. This way they assemble their own and there is no picking things off or making half-and half and then not eating all of it. Personal sized pizzas when you let them roll out their own handful of dough.

If it's just me I often will cut a chunk out of a tandoori bread I buy at the local Halal market. Pull it out of the freezer, cut it into thirds or quarters and then eat pizzas for however many days for lunch or dinner. Different toppings every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Helen
Date: 27 May 22 - 02:29 PM

Yes, our extended family has a mix of meat eaters and vegetarians too.

Usually, at home, we make a couple of big pizzas and eat the leftovers for the next couple of days. I prefer basil pesto as a base sauce but Hubby prefers tomato & onion sauce. Sometimes we make extra dough, lay it out on the pan and pre-cook it and then freeze it for a quick pizza later.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: leeneia
Date: 27 May 22 - 03:20 PM

A year or two ago I discovered YouTube videos called "Artisan bread with Steve."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yePMpoyXwys

I recommend Steve's no-knead method for the beginning baker. Before Covid, we used to have lunch at church after the Sunday service, and a round loaf of Steve's bread, guaranteed vegan, disappeared every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 22 - 03:41 PM

Leeneia, look up that book link I posted on May 24. It has some wonderful recipes. The kalamata olive one is to die for!

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 22 - 10:48 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ITFN6p24Jw

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 May 22 - 09:17 PM

If you check out the book Stilly recommends on Amazon dot com,
the customer reviews are re-ful-gent. they LOOOVE those recipes.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Lurcherman
Date: 30 May 22 - 09:31 AM

Wouldn’t be without mine, though I doubt it does much for my waistline!, shop bought bread is dreadful.
A couple of points, don’t buy a cheap breadmaker, they are not good and if you make your bread overnight, set the timer to finish when you get up otherwise the bread can go a but soft.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 31 May 22 - 09:59 AM

> shop bought bread is dreadful

Verily, once you've tasted the real thing. My suspicion is that (in the interests of increased sales) mass-produced bread uses lots of water, which causes it to go off quickly; Herself's home-made bread doesn't, so it won't, even if it gets the chance to before it's eaten.

But then what do I know about food production? The only thing Herself allows me to cook without adult supervision is shepard's pie, and that's after several decades of careful criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 22 - 06:24 PM

Well there are endless aisles in supermarkets of miserable bread, 'tis true. Mostly of the white sliced chip butty variety (don't knock it...). But it's not true that ALL shop-bought bread is crap. I'm rather fond of Sainsbury's sourdough pavé, for example, and I love Crosta and Mollica's pane pugliese, perfect for bruschetta. A bread machine, correctly used, gives you cheaper bread that can definitely be a cut above, for sure. Of course, it's not giving you the real McCoy, the acme, the gold standard. But it's still pretty good, and it makes brilliant butties.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 08:32 PM

I picked up a bag of three large tandoori flat breads from my favorite Halal market today, these for a friend who has been told he needs to gain some weight back. He loves this stuff, so it should help.

There is a supermarket chain in Texas called Supermercado Monterrey, and they put a tortilla bakery in each store. I buy them still warm and use them immediately or put them in the freezer. They come in flour or corn, and in the flour there are several sizes. Also whole wheat. Over in another part of the store (and in many Texas grocery stores you also find bolillos (the "ll" is a "y" sound), a sort of crusty roll.

There are lots of commercial brands of tortillas for sale everywhere, but they're made in factories and shipped and stay on the shelves for longer than seems prudent. I'm sure they have preservatives in them. So I don't touch those, I just get the fresh ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 05:15 AM

A local baker makes rather good (and rather expensive) granary-style loaves which we buy thinly-sliced. It makes excellent sandwiches. I had three fried eggs for breakfast this morning, frying the end-crusts in the remaining butter in the frying pan and whacking the eggs on top. Three minutes from the get-go. Beat that!

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 06:54 PM

Just observed a discussion about people who can't tolerate gluten.
It's kind of impossible to bake bread without gluten . . .
or is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 07:22 PM

Non-gluten breads abound. Take a look in the grocery store. Some of them are pretty good - the company Udi makes some very nice rolls and loaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 05:09 PM

My housemates are doing baking tonight,
but it's gluten-free banana bread
which is not, you know, REAL bread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 05:28 PM

It's not bad though.