BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req

Subject: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Helen
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 06:43 PM

Hi all,

Please note: This is a serious and *respectful* request for information and/or help on my ancestry. I am not intending to disrespect Romany or Traveller people in any way.

About 20 or so years ago when I met a couple of older ladies, cousins of my Mother's from South Wales, one of them dropped a surprising piece of information into the conversation. She said that there was a family rumour or belief that my maternal great grandmother was either Romany or a Traveller.

(The term she used was the unacceptable and derogatory word "Gypsy" and I am fairly certain that both Romany and Traveller people have been subjected to that terminology although technically it was applied to the Romany because of inaccurate assumptions about their ancestry.)

A couple of years ago I took a DNA test through a family history site and I am very, very surprised to find that I have 22% Eastern European and 6% Baltic DNA, even though I can find no links to that ancestry in the family history research I have done so far. I can also find no DNA matches on my maternal side which shows Eastern European and/or Baltic connections.

Living in Australia, I have had no contact at all with Romany or Traveller people - as far as I know - and I know very little about them or their way of life or their origins.

I am happy to be corrected if I am making a wrong assumption that the Eastern European and/or Baltic DNA may have a connection to Romany or Traveller ancestry. I have made an assumption that because no Asian or East Asian DNA is showing in my results I probably/possibly do not have Romany ancestry. I might be incorrect about that.

Also, I am not sure whether the EastEurop/Baltic connection could relate to Celtic ancestry rather than Romany or Traveller.

I suspect, given that I can see no DNA matches to the EastEurop/Baltic on an openly viewed ancestry website that it is possible that any Traveller or Romany relations prefer to keep their ancestry to themselves and not open it up on a widely available website.

Do you have any information or ideas which might help me in my search, even if it leads me totally in the opposite direction of Traveller or Romany ancestry? I am stuck and don't know where to look, and this is the only international forum on which I can make my enquiry because I don't belong to any other international sites so I'm sorry for invading a music forum with this request, which is why I've placed it in the BS section.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 07:06 PM

fingers crossed for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 08:39 PM

I suspect a good starting place is one of the commercial genetic ancestry sites. Figure out a few keywords and start searching. You might have to wait until there is a holiday when they sometimes offer free access for a few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Helen
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 09:32 PM

Thanks Ebbie and Maggie,

I already subscribe to one of the commercial genetic ancestry sites, but I suspect that Romany or Traveller people might avoid anything too open to the public, so I am getting zero DNA matches for the Eastern European or Baltic part but plenty of matches for the other aspects of my ancestry.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 03:37 AM

I am 50% East European and I get no matches from Poland or Russia, which is where my paternal ancestors are from, on Ancestry.com. I believe that My Heritage is more popular in Eastern Europe and there is some way of uploading from one to the other but I have not bothered looking into that yet. Funnily enough I do get matches Australia and the US where relatives of my ancestors emigrated to after WW2.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Helen
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 05:39 AM

Dave, I get matches from the US as well, for the same reason I think.

What is odd is that cousins and aunts, uncles etc who show up as a DNA match on my mother's side don't have the EastEurope/Baltic ethnicity.

I'd like to be able to track where in my family tree that connection comes from but I keep hitting a brick wall, so the Traveller or Romany rumour is tempting as an explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 12:49 PM

Commercial ancestor sites search documentation. I assume WWII would effect such documentation. Thus, German records might be searched.
You may have Romani, Traveller or Gypsy ancestry if your family tree includes common Romani or Gypsy surnames such as Boss, Boswell, Buckland, Chilcott, Codona, Cooper, Doe, Lee, Gray (or Grey), Harrison, Hearn, Heron, Hodgkins, Holland, Lee, Lovell, Loveridge, Scamp, Smith, Wood and Young.

Abstract. Blood groups in 2,935 Roms (Gypsies) of East Slovakia show the following frequencies of phenotypes and genes: A1A2BO phentopes: A1--32.91%, A2--2.42%, B--25.21%, O--30.15%, A1B--8.45%, A2B--0.85%, A1--0.2363, A2--0.0217, B--0.1929, O--0.5491

https://sequencing.com/blog/post/how-do-you-know-if-you-have-gypsy-ancestry

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Helen
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 02:00 PM

Thanks for that info, Donuel. You have given me the answer to a question I had after reading this information on the Family Tree DNA site:

RomanyDNA

There are a few tabs to go through on that page and also this one:

Celtic Traveller project

One of the things which was puzzling me was why I would need to take another DNA test - at more than twice the cost - when I had already taken a test on another site but the Sequencing site says that having the entire genome sequenced gives more specific results which could solve my family mystery. Now I get it about the haplogroups - well, not completely but I'm getting the idea.

Also, on the Celtic Traveller project Background tab there is a very long list of surnames which is the latest Traveller – Tinker – Gypsy Surname Index of Great Britain and there are three surnames which relate to my maternal ancestry. That alone is not enough, but two of the names are the surname of my maternal great grandmother, and her mother's surname.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 11:50 AM

Some of the commercial ancestor DNA claims are way overblown. But some just give the essential findings. I don't want to know if an ancestor was the Butcher of Cyprus but a geographically predominant population could be helpful to gene adaptation knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 03:29 AM

I'm very interested in Travellers. A group (in those lovely traditional horse-drawn caravans) arrived in this village a couple of years ago, and made camp (with permission of course) in a local farmer's field. I strolled down to speak to them, and they were absolutely delightful people. I bought a horse-shoe from them for 'good luck', and when they heard that my mother was from Cork, a Duffy, they were so chuffed.
There are indeed different Travellers, (called 'Pikeys' by disparaging folk), and some arrived in Cromer here in Norfolk some years ago.They stole from every shop and caused mayhem. The Police were reluctant to take action because it could have been construed as racist.
I would love to have a DNA test, because I often wonder if I have African DNA. Duffy means 'black' and my mum was dark-skinned and dark-haired.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: vectis
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 06:24 PM

I am sticking my metaphorical neck out here but Romany and Traveller groups have very different ancestry.

The modern day group known nowadays as Travellers have their root in northern Ireland. James 1/6 moved a load of Scottish and English plantationists into Ireland to settle on confiscated Irish land. This would give him a load of loyalists in Ireland. The Irish that had their land stolen were forced on to the road and, eventually, became todays Travellers. This is, partly, why they believe England owes them big time. Ireland has closed off most of the off road parking by putting height restrictions in place and that is when many moved to England. They couldn't park off the roads.

The Romany families came from eastern Europe but those I have spoken to are always very vague about where they originated, especially with outsiders. Most Romany went into houses in the 60s while they had the chance but still retain many of their customs and beliefs.

Roma seem to have come to UK since the 60s, many from Romania, when the east/west borders opened and will settle into houses if they can.

I taught traveller and Romany and Roma children in England for a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Helen
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 11:04 PM

Thanks vectis, I gathered that from the Celtic Traveller and Romany websites I linked to earlier.

"..Romany and Traveller groups have very different ancestry"

I'm trying to work out where my 22% Eastern European and 6% Baltic ancestry fits into my family tree, especially because none of the people matched to my DNA are showing that on the commercial website. That's why I wondered whether it is explained by either a Romany or Traveller ancestor - because of the family rumour - and I don't know which is more likely. The Eastern Europe/Baltic connection is on my Mother's side and her ancestors were Welsh and from South West England, i.e. more Celtic than English, I think. (Am I making a wrong assumption, there?)

I think I've decided to buy a more detailed DNA test and see if it matches either Romany or Traveller ancestry. That will be my from-me-to-me Christmas present.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 10:48 AM

The Travellers of Highland Scotland (who do sometimes call themselves Gypsies) are not Roma and have no link to Northern Ireland either. They're a branch of an ethnic group that seems to have started around the Baltic and have been in Scotland since about 800AD, centuries before the Roma and even before the Vikings. The English "Travellers" mentioned here have no link to them.

There are a few Roma institutions in Eastern Europe who might have useful contacts. I've been to the Museum of Gypsy Culture in Brno and they seem like a helpful bunch, though underfunded, understaffed and short of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Helen
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 01:07 PM

Thanks for that information, Jack.

As I said initially, being in Australia I know very little about Travellers and Roma so any information is useful.

I think that when I do the DNA test for the Celtic Traveller site I should be able to narrow down my maternal ancestry very specifically because their test analyses haplogroups.

Subject: RE: BS: Possible Traveller ancestry - info req
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 05:31 PM

For a nomadic people, you're less interested in where your ancestors came from than in who they were. The genes need to be identified by tribe rather than location - there have been sporadic large migrations across national borders to confuse the picture and not all tribes moved together. A Roma-specific organization should know how to cope with that.