BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 08:57 AM

But Nigel, the sanctions are not being increased due to anything Bozo has said since. In fact, seeing as he has run away, they are not going to be applied at all. He is lucky he said what he did about the committee before he chucked the towel in. It is only because he was using parliamentary privilege that he got away with his defamation of the committee.

I suppose you also think that Trump won the last presidential election and that he should get away with his lies too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 10:20 AM

Re "inside the tent pissing out", I wish to correct the record*: the little offender has found an even higher place to stand on while pissing inward. Whether this displays Olympian detachment (strictly in the sense of "passing judgement from a sufficiently great height that there's no splashback") is yet to be determined.

* Ahem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 10:31 AM

The Committee is an arm of Parliament. It can't enforce any sanctions. That can only happen if the Commons approves its findings (and let's not forget that the Commons has a thumping Tory majority). His behaviour towards the Committee could be judged as having been in contempt of the Committee, by extension contempt of Parliament itself. It would be unconscionable were he to be able to say whatever he liked about the Committee, no holding back, with no sanction available. By saying what he's said, he is holding the electorate in contempt and he is attempting to undermine democracy. It's as bad as that, Nigel. In any case, the Commons has the power to amend the report's suggested sanctions or to reject it altogether. I've done a fair bit of googling and, so far, I've seen the "beyond remit" argument put only by Johnson and a few of his backwoods allies - and you! Your googling may differ, and probably does... but be careful who you side with!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 03:19 PM

But Nigel, the sanctions are not being increased due to anything Bozo has said since.

per the committee: Motions arising from reports from this Committee are debatable and amendable. The Committee had provisionally concluded that Mr Johnson deliberately misled the House and should be sanctioned for it by being suspended for a period that would trigger the provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015. In light of Mr Johnson’s conduct in committing a further contempt on 9 June 2023, the Committee Matter referred on 21 April 2022 (conduct of Rt Hon Boris Johnson): Final Report 7 now considers that if Mr Johnson were still a Member he should be suspended from the service of the House for 90 days for repeated contempts and for seeking to undermine the parliamentary process,
Motions arising from reports from this Committee are
debatable and amendable. The Committee had provisionally concluded that Mr Johnson deliberately misled the House and should be sanctioned for it by being suspended for a period that would trigger the provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015. In light of Mr Johnson’s conduct in committing a further contempt on 9 June 2023, the Committee
Matter referred on 21 April 2022 (conduct of Rt Hon Boris Johnson): Final Report 7 now considers that if Mr Johnson were still a Member he should be suspended from the service of the House for 90 days for repeated contempts and for seeking to undermine the parliamentary process,
That certainly reads to me that the committee was looking for a 10 day suspension (enough to allow a recall petition) but has now increased it to 90 days just because its judgement has been called into question!

You, of course, may read that differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 03:46 PM

Dave the Gnome: It is only because he was using parliamentary privilege that he got away with his defamation of the committee.

I was not aware that he had made the claims within the debating chamber of Parliament.
Comments made elsewhere do not benefit from 'parliamentary privilege'.

And, of course, it is only 'defamation' if it is untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 04:02 PM

That's an interesting point of view Nigel, and I can see a logic to it
But to settle it in my mind, I tried this thought experiment. Suppose when they called Johnson to testify before the committee he had refused
That would not be contempt within the period Parliament agreed for onvestigation, but to me it would be clear contempt and should incur a penalty. This leads me to the view that all actions up to the point of publication of the final report could also be valid inatances of xontempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 04:09 PM

Nigel. Boris is a lying scumbag. I have known it for years. Millions of others have known the same. There is a Web site dedicated to it. It has been proven time and time again. The parliamentary committee has confirmed it. There is little doubt that on Monday Parliament itself will ratify it. He cannot help himself. He is a sociopathic narcissist who will do anything for power and attention. I feel sorry for those he has fooled but they should feel no shame as they were conned by masters. All you are doing is what you do best; picking at nits.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 05:14 PM

”All you are doing is what you do best; picking at nits.”

…and, as ever, trying (and failing dismally) to defend the indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 07:13 PM

Well there is, in Nigel's statements, a distinct element of an effort to defend the indefensible. However, that in itself is a bit of a sideline. I'm with DMcG on this. And I'd add, again, that the Privileges Committee is not separate from the Commons. The Commons, elected by us, elected the Committee. The Committee is answerable to the Commons and has no power of its own. We are not talking court of law here. We are talking about constitutional matters. Boris Johnson excoriating the Committee in such intemperate tones can't be right, even coming from him. We know that Trump will automatically deny and disparage each and every adverse criticism of him, right up to and including indictments. We now know that Boris sings from that self-same Trump hymn-sheet. So should we let this go? Well I don't think we should.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 01:25 AM

As I mentioned on another thread, both bozo and agent orange are following Vlad the mad"s example. Lie and lie until people believe that your lies are the truth. He has years of an iron rod state behind him while the blonde buffoon has the press barons and donny boy has the Bible bathers. Hopefully, as the people of the UK and the USA have not been as subjugated as those of Russia we will not let either of them get away with it a second time. I hope!

In words of The Who. We won't get fooled again


Will we?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 01:30 AM

A comment on this 'court of law' spin that is being put around. There are two sorts of court of law in the UK. In a criminal court, the matter must be settled beyond reasonable doubt. But in a civil court, the standard is 'on a balance of probabilities.'

So even in 'a court of law', a properly constituted one could find against Johnson. I would argue, for example, that while the breaches of the covid rules are similar to criminal charges, lying in Parliament is closer to civil cases.


"When proving a civil case, it must be 'on the balance of probabilities' which is is a lower standard of proof as required for a criminal matter." - - notes from an arbitrary selected solicitor

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 01:51 AM

Yesterday's Telegraph (of all papers) front page banner headlines.   "Carney blames Brexit for inflation"

Well.............. he did predict.

Nay-sayers are bound to blame COVID and Putin (as if the Czar had no influence on Brexshit), but they are the unspecified self-propelled goalposts that remainers couldn't name but knew were inevitable.

Those of us who have lived long enough know that recessions come along every 15 to 20 years (give of take a conflict**) because that is a generation that were too young/got lucky/didn't learn last time.   Brace yerselves Mucatters.

**Brexshit was certainly a conflict, and.........

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 01:52 AM

Bible bathers should have been Bible bashers but once again auto correct has given me a phrase that I like :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 03:33 AM

”In words of The Who. We won't get fooled again”

I’ve never been fooled by that pair of tossers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:34 AM

Iy seema this video going the rounds had not been seen by the police. A spokesperson for Bailey and co says this has been investigated and the matter is now closed.

I am sure they remember a different tack was taken with Starmer and many Toriws fought to reopen the investigation, eventually succeeding.

Given what appears to be new evidence, will they be so adamant this needs to be reopened?

Let me gueas

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 09:54 AM

> In words of The Who. We won't get fooled again

Remember how that song ended, DtG: Ave bossa nova, similis bossa seneca ....

DMcG:
> lying in Parliament is closer to civil cases

A curious thing I've noticed over the years: doing something doesn't attract as harsh a penalty as conspiracy to do said thing, which is why the Plod seem to prefer to charge people with conspiracy. The same seems to apply to being naughty and telling lies about it afterwards; the lying compounds the offence, as evry ful kno.

.... Damn --- now I can't rid myself of the image of de Pfeffel in school uniform, stood outside the Headmaster's study, shoving a book down the back of his (short) trousers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 10:00 AM

Everyone knows that the rules were only put in place to protect our master race in case any of US inferior sub humans might be carrying Covid and risk infecting our betters. The law only existed to keep s**m like us in our place and therefore does does apply to tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 02:40 PM

Before anyone else says it,
All those Conservative party 'workers' in the Daily Mirror video do deserve fixed-penalty notices.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 02:57 PM

Nice to agree wholeheartedly, Nigel.

There is a question why the video has taken to long to surface, especially when the matter was investigated by the police, but that is a separate matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 06:04 PM

There is a question why the video has taken to long to surface, especially when the matter was investigated by the police

It might be disingenuous, but I'm guessing it was deliberately put out before tomorrow's vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 06:20 PM

And for those, not just DaveTheGnome, who assume that everything that proceeds from Boris' mouth must be a lie:
Nigel. Boris is a lying scumbag. I have known it for years. Millions of others have known the same. There is a Web site dedicated to it. It has been proven time and time again. The parliamentary committee has confirmed it. There is little doubt that on Monday Parliament itself will ratify it. He cannot help himself. He is a sociopathic narcissist who will do anything for power and attention. I feel sorry for those he has fooled but they should feel no shame as they were conned by masters (a master?).

If he had gone before the committee and said "Ok. you've got me bang to rights" would you have assumed he was lying and exonerated him?

There is a problem with assuming that someone you know has lied before is automatically lying (unless it happens to agree with your own preconceptions).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 06:39 PM

What is unfortunate that the select committee's terms of reference was limited to his conduct in the house of commons and before the select committee, and not taking into account his hostory of being a liar throughout his life.

What annoys me most is:

(1) Tory party members elected the liar as leader of the toey party.
(2) The s**m who voted tory knowing the kind of filth johnson was.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:04 PM

The most amazing thing to me is that they were all jigging away knowing that someone was videoing it. I mean, bloody Nora...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:19 PM

SPB: What annoys me most is:

(1) Tory party members elected the liar as leader of the toey party.
(2) The s**m who voted tory knowing the kind of filth johnson was.

Is that as opposed to the people (I won't lower myself to your, or Angela Rayners', terms) who were happy to vote for Corbyn, despite the view that most of the Parliamentary Labour Party now seems to have of him?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:35 PM

Nigel, Jeremy Corbyn was neither scum nor a liar. He would have made a poor leader, in the eyes of some, but he is a man of high principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:39 PM

Steve: Nigel, Jeremy Corbyn was neither scum nor a liar. He would have made a poor leader, in the eyes of some, but he is a man of high principle

I, deliberately, did not describe him as either!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 01:43 AM

There are a fair number of Tory MPs who are saying they will abstain on the Privileges committee vote because they think 90 days is excessive.

It is exceptionally unlikely to happen, but I think I would quite like to see an amendment to reduce the penalty to 20 days which would force them to vote to support the report, or else show their claim it was that the recommended penalty was too high was just an excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 02:40 AM

But he didn't say that did he Nigel. He tried to lie and bluster his way out of trouble like he always does. It is very rare that I have no trust at all in someone but given bozos past record I think I am right to question everything that he says.

And, yes, conned by masters. The press barons and billionaires who glossed over all of Johnson's faults while orchestrating a relentless attack on Corbyn. I am one of the ones who believe that Corbyn made a poor leader but, as Steve said, he is a man of principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 06:52 AM

”I am one of the ones who believe that Corbyn made a poor leader but, as Steve said, he is a man of principle.”

And that is an undeniable fact that no amount of nit-picking can deny. I also thought he was as wet as ditchwater as a leader - he didn’t even defend himself with any conviction against the bare-faced lies of the Right-wing Tory press - but his principles, and his determination to stick to them, were beyond reproach.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 07:36 AM

"He didn’t even defend himself with any conviction against the bare-faced lies of the Right-wing Tory press..."

Because, refreshingly in my view, he didn't surround himself with parasitic spin-doctors. Refreshing, probably naive, but principled. He couldn't defend himself very well either against the vicious, hypocritical bastards in his own party who successfully tarred him with the utterly bogus antisemitism brush, not to speak of the scheming aresholes who would join his shadow cabinet. "We'll lose an election on purpose then we'll be rid of him and his fellow lefties." Unforgivable, and one of the main reasons we ended up with Johnson and brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 07:39 AM

Would=wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 09:25 AM

One of the reasons Johnson won in 2019 is that Corbyn was so clueless about how to defeat the Tory lies - both the lies against himself personally, and the lies about Brexit, or the lies about the last Labour government ‘bankrupting the country’, or any of the other lies that were put about by the Right-wing Tory press. He lacked the ringcraft of a great fighter in an election, and was an easy target. And it’s worth bearing in mind that a man of principle doth not automatically a good Prime Minister make.

And, TBH, I doubt if the average voter-in-the-street had the slightest interest in the internal battles of the LP, they were led by the nose by Johnson’s ‘Get Brexit Done’ horse-puckey.

It was the growth of ‘Presidential Election-style’ personality-politics that was a major factor in Corbyn’s and Labour’s downfall - neither he, nor the party, had answers to the shameless, shameful propaganda of the multi-millionaire, Tory-supporting press-barons. And I won’t be surprised if the Tories, despite the pitiful performance of successive Tory governments over the past thirteen years, lie their way in to power again in 2024.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 10:10 AM

Murdoch helped Blair to do rather well. You are underestimating the non-democratic sheer power of a right-wing media and overestimating the ability of an individual to overcome it. What happened to Corbyn (once he'd unexpectedly put the shits up Theresa May by robbing her of her majority, by the way, lest we forget) also happened to Michael Foot and Jimmy Carter, and, had Tony Benn got anywhere near the Labour leadership, it would have happened to him too. Jeremy Corbyn did not make a strong and charismatic leader, we're agreed on that, but I'm not going to agree on much else. The attacks on him were two-pronged, from the media from from within his own party. The perpetrators of the latter have a lot to answer for in terms of what's happened since. And Starmer is now their anti-left, anti-broad church cheerleader. It will end in tears. Starmer thinks Labour belongs to him, and he's got another think coming. You want charisma in a leader? OK, I'll give you Mussolini, Franco, Hitler, Stalin, Thatcher, Mao, Putin, Trump...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 10:47 AM

I just realised that the press orchestrated an ABC campaign

Anybody But Corbyn

(Boring Monday afternoon...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 05:48 PM

If you didn't already know, the commons have voted to accept the findings of the committee. In total the report was endorsed by 354 votes to seven. Only 7 Tory MPs voted against it. 118 Tory MPs endorsed the report including several cabinet members.

Anyone on here want to carry on sticking up for him?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 05:56 PM

I met an ancient Yankee redneck in Sicily in 2019, old guy with a John Bolton moustache with a Redsox baseball cap, who told me that the 2016 election, as far as he was concerned, was about "anyone but Hillary." There was a leftie Scotsman, about 6'4" tall, with us at the time. I had to get between them to protect the redneck...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 09:58 PM

> Only 7 Tory MPs voted against it.

Point of order: it was six Tories, plus the Labour chief whip who'd forced the vote by loudly saying "Deny" (or whatever it was). Abstainers may or may not have included some of the small group of Tories which Herself noted were huddled together in one corner of the House, possibly for warmth, looking like a bunch of fourth-formers sharing a sneaky smoke behind the bike sheds.

.... I'd best leave it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 01:25 AM

Point of order.

7 Tories voted against

2 Labour Tellers for the division voted against. Those votes are not counted in the totals of those voting for or against the motion.

2 Labour Tellers for the division also voted for. Those votes are also not counted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 01:30 AM

The seven Conservative MPs who voted against the report were Bill Cash, Nick Fletcher, Adam Holloway, Karl McCartney, Joy Morrissey, Desmond Swayne and Heather Wheeler.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 02:51 AM

At least the seven who voted against were voting the their principle that they believe that ministers have the right to lie and hold voters n contempt.

The abstainers are worse because the hold the opinion that lies, corruption, accountability and scrutiny are not relevant in a representative democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 03:09 AM

There were something like 250 abstainers. Personally, I find these worse than the people who voted against, as they were at least prepared to show the courage of their convictions.

There are valid reasons in a few cases for abstaining. But for the majority, I think they looked at their prospects come the next election and decided they could not afford to upset the remaining Boris fans, nor those who thought he needed to be found guilty, so as a matter of pure self interest did not vote.    Come the next election, they will not mention it or, if forced, take whatever line has seemed to have worked best for someone over the year or so between this vote and the election.

Sunak, by the way, has no valid reason for skipping the vote. Skipping the debate, possibly, but not the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 06:06 AM

Let the record show that I stand corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 02:51 PM

Looks like Penny Mordaunt is lining herself up to replace fishy Rishi. Any views?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:03 PM

Do you have a source for that, Dave - not doubting what you’re saying, just would like to read up on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:23 PM

You guys have been in a 13 year cycle of doom. What's it going to take? A labor win?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:25 PM

Just Google Penny Mordaunt nees, John. She is making the right noises and a couple of the right wing rags seem to think so. Including this piece in the Express

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1782648/penny-mordaunt-boris-johnson-conservative

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:52 PM

Thanks Dave, interesting stuff! When she was carrying the sword at the coronation, I remarked to Mrs Backwoodsperson that we could be watching the next leader of the Tory Party. I was **kinda** joking, but maybe I was nearer the truth than I realised…?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:55 PM

You're welcome, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 05:06 PM

BTW - Amyone think we should put this chapter to bed as it reaches 1000 posts and start a new one?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 05:12 PM

1,000