BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts

Subject: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 03:46 AM

Has anyone calculated how much air pollution will be generated by the millions, billions?, of fireworks which will be burned tonight worldwide?

I don't go out to watch these days but from about 11 pm to 2 or 3 am. I will hear an almost non stop series of explosions.

I always think "All that money burned!"

and

"If they only gave a little bit of it to me."

So does all that noise really equate to a decrease in the world's economy or does it actually generate more wealth?

Can we do this without the usual partisan lines?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 04:05 AM

Doesn't do owt for me but I don't mind them. Pretty quiet here in semi-rural Airedale anyway.

Happy new year to you and yours :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 04:37 AM

I'm not a fan of fireworks, either, I don't watch them, but I'll hear the bangs cos I'm about a kilometre (half a mile) from Sydney Harbour, hidden behind lots of tall buildings.

No to drones: NYE fireworks ‘spectacular, economical and egalitarian’ Drone light shows have been rejected for Sydney’s New Year’s Eve celebrations after they were found to be inferior environmentally and double the cost of the traditional Sydney Harbour fireworks show ...
A City of Sydney review found it would take 6500 drones to produce a show on the same scale as the New Year’s fireworks, but it wouldn’t last as long ...
The show would also be at greater risk of cancellation, as drones are more susceptible to high winds and the rain ...
The council said emissions generated by the fireworks display were offset to address environmental concerns...

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 04:58 AM

Oh I absolutely hate it when people in this Norfolk village set off fireworks! It terrifies the livestock (many cows, sheep, goats etc in the farmers' fields leap over the fences, hurting themselves) and so many dog-owners are trying to calm their petrified pooches. Also, we all have large oil-tanks full of kerosene, and a descending rocket could set something alight near a tank and cause an explosion.
Fireworks are the devil's invention in my opinion!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 05:03 AM

the 9pm fireworks are booming away.

in the past few days vets have been reminding folks how to protect/calm their animals. I hope their good advice has been followed.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 05:11 AM

Rescue remedy for our greyhound by 4pm today, and scarf around her ears. She will be terrified of the loud fireworks from the usual local nuisances.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 05:59 AM

Well there hasn't been much to celebrate lately, so I say cut the fireworkers some slack. As with Guy Fawkes, I think fireworks should be in the guise of organised displays on one or two days only around whatever the day of celebration is. That would make it much easier for those moaning dog owners just to keep their curs indoors with the telly on for two or three hours. Surely they wouldn't be out and about on a chilly winter's evening anyway. My cat will be snuggled up in front of the fire this evening as eight of us scoff lasagne and quaff Sangiovese in the other room (once the Prosecco is exhausted). Methinks some doth protest too much on this one. I absolutely agree that it shouldn't night after night and maybe there should be a law. As for the nuisance value, take a walk around Bude on any day out of the 365 and observe doggie nuisance writ large all over the place. Mind your kids' shoes. Naturally, it wasn't YOUR dog. It never is.

Anyway, it's supposed to rain tonight. That should help to keep the naysayers happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:36 AM

And the money spent? Does it drain or boost the world economy.

We get a few hours of exciting flashes of coloured light, explosions and terrified animals.

I loved it as a child but am just perplexed about it all now.

Really good thermal insulation in a building should insulate against sound as well and offer some, if not a lot, of protection for pets but Senoufou's point about wild and external farm animals resonates with me.

Could we have the displays without the explosions?

Fireworks that sound like G F Handel?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 08:28 AM

We tend to get loud bangs and whooshes apparently at random, possibly correlated with things we don't pay attention to (eg footie). We once rocked up in a French town on Bastille Day; the sight of several thousand Euros going *foom* was impressive, and Herself was observed to be backing slowly into her deckchair as the starbursts got progressively larger ....

What I've been wondering about is the effect of local midnight being celebrated with explosions: *does* the Earth's orbit get displaced? It doesn't need to be much, just repeated at the same point of the orbit often enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 09:03 AM

That would make it much easier for those moaning dog owners just to keep their curs indoors with the telly on for two or three hours. Surely they wouldn't be out and about on a chilly winter's evening anyway.

If only they were just "two or three hours." Those of a mind to shoot off fireworks have been practicing for several days already, and any leftover will be shot off next week.

And indoors my blue heeler can hear them just as well as outside. She's a basket case, quivering, drooling, sometimes peeing, and this year I can't put the Thunder shirt on because she's already wearing a t-shirt to protect her tummy from licking after surgery (hasn't seemed to protect it from scratching from the back leg).

In the next county east from here, Dallas is trying drones this year, I've heard a friend say she wants to see them. If they're quieter, that's one benefit.

They may have a long history, but we know better now. Too bad most parts of the world don't act on that knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 10:47 AM

Well we could make this into a philosophical debate as to who should have the greater right to impinge on others' freedoms. Setting off fireworks and owning dogs are both voluntary activities (I can prove it - I do/have neither). The moral answer, to me, would be to decide how we can best protect the privileges of each side whilst accepting that there will some inconvenience to both. So let's agree that a good way forward would be to restrict fireworks to organised displays at known times on just one or two nights around the day of celebration. In the UK, Guy Fawkes Day and New Year's Eve would be routinely allowed but celebrations for major anniversaries, jubilees, war victories, etc., would be allowed only if applied for in advance to the local council, and trivial events such as private parties and birthdays would not be allowed. We do have one every August bank holiday in Bude, organised by the charity RNLI (the Lifeboats, which raises money for them). In return, dog owners would keep their dogs indoors for the planned occasions. Anyone owning or setting off unauthorised fireworks would be fined. Dog owners who allow their dogs to foul public areas, the same, and all dog owners would have to pay a licence fee to pay for the general costs of keeping our streets safe from dog mess and for the supply and emptying of bins.

One-third of UK households own dogs. That's a considerable minority. Apart from the few assistance dogs, that dog ownership is voluntary. It simply can't be right that a minority who are hobby dog owners should dictate against the pleasures of the rest of us (and plenty of dog owners attend displays anyway).

We can discuss the environmental impact of fireworks (and dogs) separately. There's no doubt that both have negative impacts, but so do so many other things, such as driving cars and burning wood on my wood stove. Cherrypicking one activity for particular criticism because it causes you particular inconvenience whilst forgetting the other bad things done by the self-same cherrypickers is objectionable.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 11:29 AM

Well it makes someone happy. Someone with money to burn - literally.

I am more concerned with the fireworks in Ukraine.
And I don't think that is genuinely making Putin happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 04:54 PM

Greyhounds have a 270-degree range of vision. They can see objects behind them and over ½ mile in front of them! Almost without exception, they are terrified of loud noises - in particular, fireworks.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 05:21 PM

Keep them indoors. They'll get over it. My cat is indoors right now. She has to put up with multiple unwanted bear hugs from our seven-year-old grandson as well as noises from without. She too will get over it. Even beasts have to realise that life can't always be a bed of roses.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:03 PM

Pronouncing what dog owners should do and suggesting that 1/3 of the households with dogs is a severe minority is the kind of thing that gets up people's noses and keeps arguments going. Your views of what dogs can do and owners need to do are stilted and for a lot of people, offensive. State your opinion and be done with it but stop telling dog owners things that we know are simply untrue.

If 1/3 of the homes in the UK have dogs that's a lot of dogs. And dogs with good hearing are impacted indoors just as much as outdoors with high pitched whistles, wails and bangs of fireworks.

I'm getting out some of the frozen nacho/taco mix I make in big batches and freeze in 12 ounce jar portions. It's nachos for dinner and I have a 24oz can of Negra Modelo to go with it. No champagne or bottle of wine to finish later (I'm doing a dry January). I'll turn on the TV for me and put a dog bed in the office closet and possibly close her in so the blue heeler hears less of the noise, but she'll still hear enough to be upset.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Joe_F
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:07 PM

It could be worse. It could be rock&roll.

*

If you want to spoil someone's fun at the display, mention to your neighbor that in 1945, when the nuclear attack on Hiroshima was being discussed, someone at the table proposed setting off a spectacular fireworks display a little beforehand, so that everyone would be looking up and would be blinded. I do not know what the arguments were.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:19 PM

So are you implicitly suggesting what fireworks fans should do? Or not do, that is, desist from having their fireworks? The majority of people don't own dogs and there is a widespread perception, right or wrong, that many dog-owners (by no means all) have a sense of entitlement. "I'm not picking up that poo so just put up with it. I don't care if my dog hassles you on the beach or barks on the beach all afternoon or runs out of control through your garden. Too bad if you can't see that my dog is only 'being friendly' when it jumps up at you or excitedly sniffs around your feet." Your dog ownership is voluntary. You have the right to negotiate compromise with the fireworks brigade (of which I am not a member) and agitate for restrictions, and I'd support that. But you have no right to dictate what they do. My post was intended to set out compromises. Your surprise attack is symptomatic of that entitlement I mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:25 PM

And I didn't say severe.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:44 PM

The days are getting longer!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 07:01 PM

Happy New Year Everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 07:11 PM

The days getting longer is the point. By the end of January things are looking up, except for the temperature!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 04:04 AM

Considerably fewer fireworks last night here in the Backwoods. They began around 11:45pm and the nonsense was over by 12:15am, instead of going on until 2:30 - 3am the way it usually does. It didn’t really surprise me, there have also been far, far fewer houses with Xmas lights displays this year. A result of the Tory government’s deliberate policy of impoverishment of the hoi polloi, perhaps?

SRS - our Border Terrier takes no notice whatsoever of fireworks. We believe that to be a result of ‘training’ him when he was around five months old by playing a CD of fireworks-display sounds for half an hour every night - starting quietly and increasing the volume slowly over the three weeks or so leading up to 5th November (the UK’s ‘official fireworks night’).

FWIW, I agree with Steve’s proposal for the use of fireworks to be limited to ‘official organised’ displays on two or three specified occasions each year.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 09:42 AM

"Pronouncing what dog owners should do and suggesting that 1/3 of the households with dogs is a severe minority is the kind of thing that gets up people's noses and keeps arguments going. Your views of what dogs can do and owners need to do are stilted and for a lot of people, offensive. State your opinion and be done with it but stop telling dog owners things that we know are simply untrue."

Dead right, and Shaw hates to be proved wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 10:18 AM

Well Maggie had an off-day with that one. I didn't say "severe" and I didn't say anything that was untrue! My posts were so full of caveats that even John didn't complain! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 11:28 AM

I did not. The fireworks that are being discharged here are all illegal in my village, in the surrounding city, and in the whole county. There is no excuse for the noise, disruption, and pollution individuals cause. It was like a bomb going off several times last night in the wee hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 12:51 PM

Fireworks are allowed in the UK until 1am on New Year's Day, but selfish inconsiderate idiots still let them off here until 2am.

Fortunately hourly Rescue Remedy from 5pm zonked out our greyhound.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 03:02 PM

Well, Bonzo, you support the alleged party of Laura Norder. Where have you been for the last twelve years?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 04:49 PM

I disagree with Steve Shaw on this one. Animals, perhaps especially dogs, do NOT get over it. They look to us for help that we can't give. I've had dogs (and all of mine for years have been adult/elderly rescues from our local shelter) that couldn't relax enough even to pee until well after midnight. There are some breeds of dogs that are not bothered but most of them practically lose their minds and some do so literally. There are cases where dogs have jumped out of windows to their deaths. And a sense of 'entitlement' does not apply here- it is called Compassion.

Here in Juneau, Alaska, our local ski area looms over town. I would love it if a tradition were instated to have those people who love and must have fireworks to drive up there and shoot them off to their hearts' content. Wild animals would still be terrified but at least our pets wouldn't be at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 05:10 PM

You fret about fireworks because you see your pets at risk. Fireworks aficionados might be outraged were fireworks to be banned. The point is that both pets and fireworks are voluntary, hobby activities. This is an area which is ripe for compromise. I did suggest some ways. If one thinks that the fireworks hobby should be banned in favour of their pet hobby, one would indeed be considered to be harbouring a sense of entitlement. I've seen both pet ownership and fireworks blamed for causing both nuisance and environmental damage (even my lovely cat been known to kill songbirds) and I've yet to see an argument that one is more virtuous than the other. So what we need is a bit of humility and a bit of compromise. And for police forces to enforce the laws on fireworks, not always the case. Same with stray dogs and dogs illegally on Bude's beaches, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 05:23 PM

"I disagree with Steve Shaw on this one. Animals, perhaps especially dogs, do NOT get over it."

I couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 05:26 PM

My friends just left our common table at Starbucks, but all of them were annoyed by last night's fireworks, which when set off by locals were all illegal. The young dog I spend so much time with was disturbed initially but adapted herself, which does not mean she was not abused. I think their hearing is so much more acute than ours that the percussive aspects of explosives could be damaging to animals much as cap pistos were to us as kids.

At this point in history I think home fireworks are as protected as the casual ownership of firearms in these parts. It will take a major fire or property loss to result in public policy changes (oh, wait, that's already happened).

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 05:26 PM

Ah, but what about designated non-populated areas, Steve? The best of both worlds.

Not that I have much hope of its succeeding. I've never forgotten the summer day in Juneau's downtown when 15-20 motorcycles came roaring and popping and blasting up and down each of our two downtown streets. They made the circuit and then left to return to the valley. Ya can't tell me that they did it for their own enjoyment- they did it to display their power over 'lesser' mortals.

People can be a-holes.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 06:22 PM

In many countries, including the UK and US, there are laws restricting fireworks that are not enforced. In the UK at least, laws restricting dogs on beaches and in nature conservation areas are not enforced, and penalties for dog fouling, which is rife, are rare. If you want to cause strife between factions, have laws that you never enforce. It's a big problem. In the meantime, both sides need to learn how to live and let live. I'm sure that there are occasional circumstances in which it's hard to shield dogs from firework noise. I'm also sure that, just for a few evening hours once in a while, it's more than possible to keep your dog inside, reasonably insulated from outside noise, and that far more dog owners moan about this than need to. But let's enforce those firework restrictions and a good deal of stress would be removed from this spat.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 03:01 AM

Well, New Year's Eve was a total nightmare. Fireworks exploding from about 8pm onwards, followed by massive 'Battle of the Somme' type bombs at midnight. This went on for ages. My poor husband was suffering the same noise over in his village, and he didn't sleep a wink.
As we both go to bed in our respective dwellings at around 9pm, this was absolutely insufferable. I was actually quite terrified.
Why do people have to draw attention to themselves in this juvenile fashion? Flashing Christmas lights that go on all night long, loud explosions, drunken shouting and bawling in the street outside people's houses in the middle of the night? This is usually a quiet, peaceful village, but not at this time of year!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:18 AM

Usual bully boy anti dog drivel from Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:29 AM

"Bully boy?..."

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 08:32 AM

> designated non-populated areas

Pick your site carefully. I remember one bonfire night when my brother's hockey club put on a firework display. The club site was down by the Trent, in a flood-plain area [before it became fashionable to build houses on such]. The night was foggy, and much more so near the site. I remember having to hang my head out of the passenger-side window, and he out of the driver's window, to work our way along the single-track lane between the hedges; the display itself consisted of slightly blurry whooshes and muttered blasphemy coming through the fog.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 08:48 AM

> in a flood-plain area

.... thus lower down, so the fog flowed into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 08:55 AM

Seven people died and dozens were injured in a multi-vehicle crash on the M5 on November 4 2011. The weather was foggy, but thick smoke from a fireworks display at Taunton Rugby Club, hundreds of metres away, had mixed with the fog. Yeah, choose your site carefully. We still see the memorials tied to the flyover bridge every time we drive past.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: leeneia
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 01:46 PM

Years ago I started a tradition of playing music on Jan 1st. Back then, we all had jobs, and getting Jan 1st off during the work week was a treat, but why did we have off, really?

So I started the tradition of National Pointless Day. Musicians would play in one room, with emphasis on the Three Kings (because Christmas isn't really over yet) and other tunes in Em and Am, with drummers welcome. Non-musicians played Scrabble in the dining room.

Two days ago we did it again. (We did it on Saturday afternoon because our NFL team was playing on Jan 1st, a Sunday.) We really had fun, and everybody was snug at home before the madness began.

We had harp, flute, recorder, guitar, percussion and electronic piano. The piano was set on Harpsichord, but later I set it on Oboe & Strings. It sounded quite medieval, and everybody liked it. We did Personent Hodie with my new lyrics.
==========
Fireworks are illegal here, but with hundreds of people setting them off, what can we do? If I had a dog, I think I would sit in the car with it and play Beethoven on the CD player. I'd take a book. But I'm lucky, and the fireworks don't go all day.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternative New Year's Eve Thoughts
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 03:09 PM

One night some years back I took my dog to the actual city fireworks display, thinking that if he saw -not just heard- the brilliant flashes he might calm down. It didn't work. He was a slobbering, drooling, crying mess. I know that if I had opened the car door he would have been instantly gone.