BS: Death Penalty

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Mar 23 - 06:01 AM

I have seen the mass executions in China of several hundred people at a time. The death penalty is ugly no matter what the numbers say.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Neil D
Date: 01 Mar 23 - 03:22 AM

in the last 50 years in the US 190 former death-row prisoners have been exonerated of all charges related to the wrongful convictions that had put them on death row, a pretty strong argument against the death penalty.
Then there's this from a NY Times article: Black lives do not matter nearly as much as white ones when it comes to the death penalty, a new study has found. Building on data at the heart of a landmark 1987 Supreme Court decision, the study concluded that defendants convicted of killing white victims were executed at a rate 17 times greater than those convicted of killing Black victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 06:42 PM

My words are hardly unrestrained. They characterise the process fairly accurately. "Standard" and "routine" are not accurate by any standards when it comes to describing a process that is extreme in its exceptional nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 06:23 PM

I'm not 'railing'.. I'm just expressing my opinion of the linguistics.

Words carry emotive power. "Ritual" feels, at least in my experience, to indicate psychological intensity. 'Routine' is closer to what I'd call it. Of course it has some standard preparations and details, and 'some' of those who participate may be 'cold-blooded' in their attitude.

*shrug* euphemisms come in many flavors.
I have no doubt that opposition to the practice is likely to cause one to choose 'stronger' terms. So, because I am only 97.2385% opposed, I pick more restrained words.

'nuff said..

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 05:14 PM

But it is ritualistic. The time and place and method are all pre-determined. All the steps are laid out in advance. It is cold-blooded. Pre-planned, pre-organised if you like, a long time after the crime that provoked it, the very essence of cold-bloodedness. It is a human being that you're killing. It is sanctioned by the state. My characterisation is intended to be unemotional and, above all, accurate. If that makes you uncomfortable and wanting to rail against the words, I see that as your problem. Please feel free to express my statement in whatever euphemisms you prefer. You might not like the words, but they do no more than describe what is being done. I would find it quite hard to describe the deliberate and premeditated killing of a bound person in terms that could be described as prosaic, but maybe you could do better.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 03:02 PM

Charmion..I'd prefer terms like 'neutral' and 'standardized' rather than those loaded ones.. but I guess we sort of agree on the concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Charmion
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 02:42 PM

Right there with you on the devil's side of the courtroom, Bill.

Cold-blooded ritual is a good thing, in my opinion, when you're deliberately killing someone, in public, and in accordance with a judge's order. God forbid you should do it in a hot-blooded frenzy.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 02:01 PM

I see the phrase "the ritualistic, cold-blooded killing of another human being by the state." as a loaded phrase...designed to color the entire concept negatively. Why 'ritualistic' and 'cold-blooded'? Even executioners can have misgivings or regrets.
   In various posts are references to 'those who wholeheartedly support' it.
Am I the only one who can even discuss any sort of middle ground or conditional law?
I KNOW that the issue is seen by many as black or white, but neither FOR or Against as a firm stand can cover all the nuances of the actual crimes, situations and persons involved.
For the reasons I stated on 20 Feb 23 - 12:03 PM, I'd prefer banning the death penalty...with certain exceptions. No, I am not ready to craft a detailed plan... which probably wouldn't get many votes anyway.

Bill D... ever the devil's advocate.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 11:30 AM

A way of making sure if a jury member really wants to put someone to death would be to force them to witness the execution and live with the potential distress and trauma of watching someone being put to death
for the rest of their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 10:57 AM

I agree Steve. To me it's barbaric. I also think people who want prisoners to have a terrible time inside are barbaric too. The punishment in HMP is simply the loss of liberty, but the inmates should be (and are)treated with humanity. All prisons in UK are regularly inspected.
When we were obliged to have our much-loved cats put to sleep at various times in the past, it broke our hearts, but it was necessary. Each time, the vet advised us that the poor animal would not have much longer (each was very, very old and in poor health) and putting to sleep would be for the best. My husband sobbed, and I tried to hold the cat each time as the fatal injection was given. Now imagine that was a human being having their life snuffed out!

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 09:47 AM

The problem with eliminating death sentence-opposers from juries is that the jury would be in danger of being less representative (or even less representative...). Apparently, people who support the death penalty are, in general, more likely to convict whatever the charge.
It could mean that fewer black people or fewer women would be available to select from, as those groups tend to favour the death penalty less than white men.

Easier just to not have the death penalty...

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 07:59 AM

Depending upon the crime a life sentence is a death penalty.
Inmates carry out an execution inside the prison be it a sentenced Jeffery Daimler or an unsentenced Epstein.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 07:51 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 07:41 AM

In theory, Steve, you could be prosecuted but in practise you probably just be moved to a different case where that penalty would not arise

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 07:34 AM

I've never been called for jury service, but in a hypothetical situation in which a possible outcome would be a death sentence, I would inform the judge that I would not in any circumstances be able return a guilty verdict. Dunno what would happen then!

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 06:59 AM

What is surprising that the pro death penalty knuckle draggers are prepared, in order top gratify their blood lust. to run the risk of, for example, a child murderer walking free in the event of a civilised jury returning a perverse verdict.

If someone wants to put someone to death, they need to do it of their own volition and face the consequences afterwards rather than the state absolve them of personal responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 03:30 AM

I've had many conversations with people who are all for the death penalty, and some even think prisoners are far too well cared for in prison! All the prisons I've been in had a small 'hospital' with a trained nurse and a visiting doctor, and regular visits from a dentist. Their daily dinner was tasted by the governor to ensure it was edible. Heating was provided in the cells, and those inmates with hardly any clothes were given prison wear, including pyjamas.
Now, people who want offenders to be bumped off with the noose or a fatal injection, or locked up in dire conditions etc seem to me to be 'criminal' in their own way. Where is human compassion and understanding?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 06:59 PM

https://deathpenalty.procon.org/states-with-the-death-penalty-and-states-with-death-penalty-bans/

I believe Texas holds the record for executions.

Injection executions ran out of prescribed life-ending substances by physicians. (Hippocratic oath controversy) They tried other things that failed or tortured but it has dropped out of the news. I wonder if they are using Fentanyl or some other secret concoction.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 06:45 PM

We don't have the death penalty, but those people exist here in droves too, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 06:13 PM

I live in California, where the death penalty is the law but the Democratic governors won't authorize it. I am surrounded by people who think that it would be an abomination to abolish the death penalty. I'm sure happy our governors have prevailed.
But it's scary to think that I live around people who believe in "the ritualistic, cold-blooded killing of another human being."

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 04:21 PM

I asked a question and defined nothing. As far as I know, this site was founded by Max. Perhaps you think that "polemics" means "gross inaccuracy."

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 03:05 PM

The definer and chief is in charge of accuracy here.
I am the minister of polemics and Joe is a founder of a leading folk music site.

We share the death penalty with some very shady nations like; China, India, the United States, Singapore, Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Japan, and Taiwan, but in the US it is decided state by state.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 02:43 PM

How do you suppose that defines us?

Accurately?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 01:12 PM

But just mull over those words again: "the ritualistic, cold-blooded killing of another human being by the state." How do you suppose that defines us?

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 12:03 PM

I tried to post this 2 days ago, when it wasn't working.


Yes, Steve... let's suppose all that. It is the only type of case in which I'd favor it. There are so many cases where there is 'reasonable' doubt, and WAY too many where the innocent has been executed because Judges & prosecutors would not allow their decisions to embarrass
themselves.

Remember, the 'worst of the worst' prisoners, who are clearly and admittedly guilty, have nothing to lose by continuing to be dangerous in prison to other prisoners and guards.

The common answer of **never take a life unless in your defense of your own or your family's** just seems too simplistic... to me.
   The history of mankind is littered with examples of NO belief in 'reverence for life'. It is a slogan... just as "Do unto other before they do unto you." and "There are the winners and the losers...be one of the winners." are. We can't live by altruistic slogans. The 'bad guys' have no compunctions about the death penalty for those whose lives are not convenient for them. I don't see why the worst should be excluded...

I wish it were otherwise...

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 06:46 AM

All these posts have been very interesting - thank you everybody!
Personally, I could never ever take away a life, no matter what the circumstances. Even in self-defence, I'd be horrified if I'd actually killed my attacker. A bash over the head with my big frying pan, but not fatally. Even, over the years, having to sit beside each of our much-loved cats in their frail old-age while the vet put them to sleep caused me agony of heart.
So I could never condone the Death Penalty for convicted criminals. I realise the general public has to be protected from murderers etc, and life imprisonment seems the best way. The inmates of he eight prisons I visited seemed to adapt to prison life. It wasn't fun of course, but they were all well looked-after.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 05:40 AM

The problem is that many of those many factors and issues may be brought in improperly to cloud the question of whether the ritualistic, cold-blooded killing of a human by a state can ever be justified in principle. Is the death penalty a deterrent, for example? I don't care. That's irrelevant to the moral question. Should we have to pay out big money to keep a murderer incarcerated for decades? If our judgement is made on a moral and principled basis, that also is entirely irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 08:04 PM

The linear mind sees an issue as black or white, yes or no.
But it seems to me the death penalty has many factors and issues, along with any subject on Earth. Creating law is a multi-dimensional puzzle that tries to take into account all the separate complexities and sub-issues of many different possibilities.
It is hard to do but many laws are deliberately written as bad laws.
Yet even a good law is no better than the way it is applied.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 02:44 PM

I can feel a book coming on. When I see what a mess the U.S. legal system is I can sympathized with declaring everyone in the system the potential victim of 'cruel and unusual' treatment, and that goes yet again for the U.S. prison system. Yet, considering the punishment for the Norwegian mass slaughterer, that comes off to me as 'coddling' someone who should be six feet under. Yet if I somehow gained authority in the U.S. prison system probably the first thing I'd do is go for a European model of treatment simply to ensure minimum standards of safety and dignity to the workers and inhabitants of the prisonn system.

And quite simply, there are people who we don't need to remain above ground with us. And I'd go beyond that. I think there are crimes that merit capital punishment even if they do not directly cause death. Two in particular are arson and deliberate infrastructure sabotage, such as targeting electrical substations.

BUT: When it calls for applying capital punishment in reality, particularly among living breathing defective humans such as myself, other emotions place me with the anti-death penalty crowd.

So you could get one reaction from me after watching "In Cold Blood" and a quite different reaction after attending a Trmp rally.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 02:14 PM

I suppose that what Arabs might get up to out of sight could be very different to what the Saudi regime dictates.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 01:26 PM

Strange about the LGBT thing.

An old friend of mine was in the Friends Ambulance Unit during the war. He was gay and said the arabs were very liberated (compared to us) when it came to gay sex. Indeed he was regretful that his moral beliefs had prevented him from taking advantage of the many opportunities that came hi way.


Lawrence of Arabia certainly seemed to live a more free and uninhibited sex life when he was living amongst the arabs.

I think maybe in saudi - its just an excuse to get rid of anyone when they don't like the cut of their gib - rather than an actual moral standpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 12:36 PM

Whether there's redemption or cure for them or not, it's an entirely separate issue as to whether executing them is ever justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 09:42 AM

Is there redemption for heinous psychopaths beyond help or current cure?
Only time will tell. There are always exceptions. Decisions are made today on a cost-risk-benefit basis. It is a formalized speculation system. The unspoken emotions beneath the decisions are revenge and vengeance.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 09:24 AM

Saudi also executes, publicly flogs or tortures people who engage in same-sex sexual activity, and LGBT rights are not recognised. Don't even think of cross-dressing. Whilst you have a point, Al, there are degrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 08:26 AM

The thing is, who WOULD you do business with?

China, America, Russia.....they all employ the death penalty. Europe for the most part doesn't, but there's that sort of count your fingers moment after every deal.

At least with Saudi, the cheques don't bounce.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 23 - 06:23 PM

And here's something else. In 2022, Saudi Arabia executed 147 people. We buy their oil and we sell them fighter jets so that they can bomb Yemen. Blind eye doesn't even begin to cut it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Feb 23 - 02:30 PM

The out-and-out dead to rights ones like McVey or Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, a few others whose names we know as cultural markers, they can go as far as I'm concerned. I found this and realized that there are monsters all around the world. I suppose the reason so many got life without parole sentences is that they might name some more names to give the families of those victims still missing some closure.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Feb 23 - 02:29 PM

Texas gets a lot of those convictions wrong because they were based upon sloppy and institutionally racist (or just plain sloppy racist) investigations. A lot of the people put to death are non-white. The Innocence projects get a fair number of reversals these days as they work their way through the requests for help from inmates and their families.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Feb 23 - 10:38 AM

I am still agin it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 23 - 03:51 AM

So, the devil's advocate in me:

Suppose there was no doubt that the brutal killer was guilty as he'd done it in full sight of many witnesses. Suppose he had no history of childhood abuse or mental illness. Suppose that a medical had found no current physical or mental illness. Suppose that the executioner was an enthusiastic volunteer.

Would that clear the way for a justifiable execution?

(I know what I think...)

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Feb 23 - 01:22 AM

I am against the death penalty.

1. We are seeing far too many cases where the innocent have been falsely convicted of crimes by corrupt police and prosecutors. Nobody can be 100% sure. If you don't believe me, google "GOlubske Kansas City Kansas."

2. Nobody considers the effects on people who carry out the executions. Do we have the right to ask somebody to do such a thing, even if they say it doesn't bother them?

3. Few people have read books about child abuse, brain damage, drug use, gang life, street life, sex trafficking, mental illness... The average juror has little idea of what the usual criminal has been through.

Somebody did a study years ago and found that every man on death row had been beaten about the head as a child while the family took them to a different hospital every time to prevent anybody asking questions. Sadly, nobody paid much attention to the study, as far as I could see.

Why do I say "man"? Because abusers tend to abuse girls by sexually assaulting them and to abuse boys by hitting them in the head. Also, there are far more men and women on death row.

However, I was reading a true crime book which was more recent, and the accused refused to take a scan to see if he had a damaged brain. The stigma among the poor is so powerful that he was too proud to risk it although it might help his case. (So maybe I'm wrong and somebody did pay attention to the study.)

4. Just recently I read about a prosecutor with a very good record on convictions and who told the author that he did not want educated people as jurors. He said he didn't want jurors who "second-guess the witnesses." To me that sounds like he doesn't want anybody who thinks critically or considers the possibility that the witness is lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:07 PM

I'm 100% in agreement with Steve (hope you're sitting down!).

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:06 PM

I'm agin it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: meself
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:01 PM

Saw a prison-interview years ago with one of the Manson killers - she said that if she had been executed, she would have died happily 'for Charlie', and never have had to face what she had done. As it was, she had to face it every day. (California abolished the death penalty around the time of the Manson trials.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 02:58 PM

I'm with Doug on his "life is precious" caveats. I'm no pacifist and I'll always defend the right of a nation, or a people, or a family, or an individual, to defend themselves when attacked, even if that means killing your attacker. There's plenty of conditionality attached to that, I think. If a gunman is on a killing spree in a school, college, supermarket or in the street, then shooting to kill them seems justified. But the death penalty is different to all those cases because it's done in ritualistic cold blood. All the other arguments apply of course, but, for me, that is the clincher. Putting people to death in that way dehumanises us. Makes us no better, possibly even worse, than the person we're executing.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 01:57 PM

Thank you Dick. Unfortunately Neil Gaiman has other ideas for The Sandman

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 01:07 PM

no return to a death penalty. for anybody
and certainly not for gnomes. good health to all gnomes

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 12:34 PM

It would take someone far cleverer and braver than me to decide who should live and who should die. Anyone who thinks that they are qualified to do so should instantly be debarred from making that decision!

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 09:51 AM

A fascist regime loves the death penalty. It gets them one legitimate step closer to the summary execution of their enemies.

Texas is the execution leader in the US. Many states have run out of chemicals to execute. This story has disappeared lately. Perhaps they are using Fentanyl.
I am against the flawed execution system. However I have to admit that there are times when nature makes a mistake that society can not fix.

Subject: RE: BS: Death Penalty
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 08:46 AM

In the vinyl release of Fairport convention's LP "Babbacombe Lee' there was a reprint of the Lloyd's Weekly article he wrote for them. For those who don't know the story, he was sentenced to be hung and then, because that failed, his sentence was changed to life imprisonment. If you can find a copy, the last few paragraphs are about his thoughts on the matter of death sentence versus life.
Only one voice, but rather better placed on the matter than most of us.