What is drag?

Subject: What is drag?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 03:41 PM

Went to a drag show. Great music, but the performers were, actually, women.

To me, that's not drag, that's burlesque.

It was still great fun, and I don't *care* - but I am curious.

Is it drag if it isn't men dressed as women?

Also am hearing people compare drag to blackface. No comparison, imo. Whites dressed in blackface to perform black music in white clubs where blacks were banned. Women are not banned from dressing as women, so men doing it is not the same.

How many ways am I wrong?

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 05:24 PM

I dont know I am from Ballydehop

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 05:51 PM

;) You missed this!? ;)

St Brigid is cool again.
And with St. Brigid’s Day, traditionally heralding the arrival of spring in Ireland and the end of winter’s gloom, just around the corner, we have just the treat to celebrate.
Drag haus Mockie Ah is bringing an Imbolc bash to the sleepy seaside village of Ballydehob on the eve of the festival.
Levis Corner House will host Comedy Central’s Candy Warhol with Nettles and Mia Gold for a glittering feast of “drag, comedy, games, and sing-alongs plus plenty of tunes after with enough dancing to raise St.Brigid herself!”

https://www.yaycork.ie/st-brigid-is-getting-a-drag-show-in-her-honour-at-this-ballydehob-pub/

Freddy

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 08:45 PM

My acquaintances include men who wear women's clothing,
but I don't know if they use the word drag.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 08:56 PM

I think you could say that "drag" and "cross-dressing" and "transvestite" are synonyms, but there's a different shade of meaning. "Drag" is usually cross-dressing for the purpose of entertainment and caricature.

Merriam-Webster says:

"Drag" is entertainment in which performers caricature or challenge gender stereotypes (as by dressing in clothing that is stereotypical of another gender, by using exaggeratedly gendered mannerisms, or by combining elements of stereotypically male and female dress) and often wear elaborate or outrageous costumes
"… Atlanta … was, like, mecca for drag. It had the traditional drag queens who were female impersonators. But, you know, I had come from the punk rock side of the tracks, and we did drag as a social comment …"
—RuPaul

My honeymoon for my first marriage was a weekend in San Francisco in June 1971. My ex was a bit of a prude, so I was surprised that she agreed to go to the drag show at Finocchio's in the North Beach nightclub district. It was an excellent show, with great music and gorgeous costumes. As a good Catholic boy just a year out of the seminary, I didn't see anything objectionable about the show - and neither did my prudish ex-wife.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 09:48 PM

Yeah, just plain transvestism isn't drag. Performance is a key element. To me.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: meself
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 12:44 AM

Hmmm ... maybe they were women who identify as men ....

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST,Brenda
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 03:55 AM

There are some women who just want to do the over the top dressing and entertaining. There was a woman on the last series of Ru Paul's drag race UK and was doing rather well until she injured herself.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 08:00 AM

From my dictionary...........[mass noun] clothing more conventionally worn by the opposite sex, especially women's clothes worn by a man: a fashion show, complete with men in drag.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 08:36 AM

My favorite dragster(?), Dame Edna. Not sure what pronoun to use but Dame Edna appears around 2:45 in.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: meself
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 12:01 PM

'There are some women who just want to do the over the top dressing and entertaining.' Which is what Mrrzy is identifying as 'burlesque'. If it's 'drag', then I suppose 'drag' has reached the point 'blackface' did when Black performers started putting on blackface.

Makes no difference to me, btw.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 03:02 PM

The #womanface movement seems to have exploded with Dylan Mulvaney modeling sports bras for Nike.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 03:55 PM

Fascinating.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 04:25 PM

Other than the fact that there was great music in the show, why isn't this below the line?

DC

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 04:44 PM

Hi, Doug - it may go below the line sooner or later (especially if it becomes political), but it was started above the line and I see no reason to rush to move it down. It may end up covering more music. And for the most part, drag performances are all music and dance, with comedy mixed in.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 07:01 PM

Drag usually involves just performance. Transvestism 'usually' involves wearing clothing of the opposite sex for erotic purpose... usually men who are NOT actually trans, wearing some degree of women's clothing, often only undergarments/lingerie.

It's easy to be confused, as people's motivation and orientation takes many forms.

It is the case that some significant % of drag performers are also gay. (I saw a documentary interview not too long ago.)

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 07:25 PM

Whites dressed in blackface to perform black music in white clubs where blacks were banned. Women are not banned from dressing as women, so men doing it is not the same.

Except, America had little or no garden, cabaret or cafe society to exclude blacks from until vaudeville came along. The circus was typically segregated seating. White males, young and old, were more common than females in the female roles... black or white. “Woke” abolitionist blackface was major box office. And folk complained.

The old word in cabaret and masque was vedette. Think drag staple Carmen Miranda and you've got the picture. Impersonating, queening and/or flaming it is just a matter of degree(s.) Victor, Victoria, Robert Preston or…?

PS: Drag king Mary Queen of Scots was known to butch it up a little now and then on the sly. American bad girls Lucille & Helen Western scandalized/thrilled audiences with the occasional male role in blackface or mustache.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: meself
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 08:16 PM

While we're on the subject - how about WWI drag? https://www.cbc.ca/arts/drag-queens-in-world-war-one-ross-hamilton-marjorie-1.68

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 02:30 AM

I would also include the British tradition of pantomime Dames as drag. Maybe even the leading boy often being a girl?

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 02:40 AM

When i lived in Suffolk one of the slang terms was" I am a bit on the drag" meaning I am a bit late

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: BobL
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 04:24 AM

Not to be confused with drag racing ...... yet.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 09:20 AM

What a drag!

I wondered about above- or below the line.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 09:58 AM

BobL - See RuPaul's Drag Race!

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 10:39 AM

"Drag artists" are simply men who dress as women for the purpose of entertainment. It's an umbrella term that encompasses many types of entertainment, however. All from the drag queens who dress as Disney princesses to read stories to children (which is a thing in the US now), to drag cabaret singers to drag standup comedians all the way to the kind of raunchy sex-themed drag artists doing adult shows. Which is why all the controversy about drag artists in the US is so stupid. They act like all drag artists are the same, that they're all sex-oriented, which is wrong. I mean drag queens have been an integral part of kids pantomime in the UK since Victorian times, have they not? They're usually quite saucy and flamboyant, they make the kids laugh and they throw innuendo over the kids' heads to the parents, who laugh as well. Never been any problem or controversy about it. Meanwhile in America....

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: meself
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 12:00 PM

'They act like all drag artists are the same' - Well, to be fair, most people know very little about the subject - and why would they know more? Their impression is limited to that made by 'the kind of raunchy sex-themed drag artists doing adult shows' that they've heard of, glimpsed, or fully enjoyed on the sly. Is it really surprising that there is some concern with the idea of children being exposed to that kind of thing?

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 12:23 PM

In masquerade (grand rag) it's more about who you are not (ie: yourself) than the character you become. Nobody should have a clue until the big reveal at the very end of the act/ball/whatevs. It can get a little tricky when the masque crosses more than one line, or the same line more than once.

Was the white man in black face, dress and wig doing a black woman Lucy Long or a black drag queen Lucy Long?

Me dear ol' mum could fool a room with her Marlene Deitrich in realistic five o'clock shadow make-up and horrid plastic wig. A woman playing a man; playing a woman; playing a man.

PS/RE Politics and that man behind the curtains: Bud-Light & Nike are ex-Trumpster Larry Fink and Blackwater and the old school ties at Creative Artists Agency (Harvey Weinstein et al.) In with the UFC and WWE and InBev SA/NV alphabet mob. You chant "Hang the Rich!" today... they'll be back tomorrow with TikTok rope influencers and a sale on cordage. Just another Tuesday afternoon in Hollywood.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 06:27 PM

I feel consensus coming on.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: Felipa
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 07:22 PM

There was a street carnival in my town and I got annoyed at a couple of performers in "gray face". They were relatively young but dressed up as elderly, and one had a walking stick which was simply a prop. They did a caricature of elderly people with infirmities dancing. I had a sore back that day, so I felt that people like me were being mocked. Ironically, the organisation which featured these entertainers is now offering circus skills workshops to people 50 years and older.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 07:38 PM

THis thread seems timely,
with the demise of Barry Humphreys.
His Edna Everage will live forever.

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 23 - 03:35 AM

Humour is a personal thing, I do not find Danny la Rue, amusing dame edna is Slightly more amusing, so I find it a drags on somewhat

Subject: RE: What is drag?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Apr 23 - 04:38 AM

Drag or?: They could have booked Dame Edna or Mrs. Doubtfire, but no. If the library elects Dr. Frank-N-Furter to read to the little ones instead, it's about the reader and not the reading. It's no secret. (RIP all)

How is it Harlem's Hamilton Lodge does not have a wiki these days? Tyler Perry has been accused of everything from black-face 'coonery buffoonery' to “misappropriation of drag culture.” Audiences hated all fourteen (14) movies... hmmmmm.

If not for Carol Cleveland, Monty Python would not have one ovary between the lot of them. Audiences thought they were hilarious… or just plain silly.

Benny Hill was doing drag & black face to the very end. Michael Jackson & Snoop Dog were big fans. Spike Lee.. not so much. Thames TV just kept taking it to the bank. Until they didn't.