BS: Grand National

Subject: BS: Grand National
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 23 - 08:11 PM

Great race. It's the only gambling we ever do at our house apart from a quid a week on the lottery. We all have a horse each with a quid on the nose. Mrs Steve gets a horse, I get a horse, the cat gets a horse. This year, we gave Basil the fox a horse too. Basil has been visiting daily for a snack for the last ten months. We chose Basil the fox's horse by scrolling down the list of riders, and found that one jockey's name was Derek Fox, so very appropriate.

So guess what. Basil's horse won the bloody thing. He got 10-1 so that'll pay for three lots of Bakers' Small Dog food. He got an extra snack reward on his early evening visit.

But a horse died at the first fence. Two other horses have died at this meet. The death rate is almost one horse per year. I've heard faulty reasoning about this, viz "All sports have risks. Rugby players, boxers and F1 drivers are all at risk." Well yes but all those sports are human beings deciding whether they should take risks. A horse has no choice...

There were protesters there today who tried (and failed) to stop the race. Once I'd heard that yet another horse had died in the race, I found myself siding with them. Maybe I'll find something else to bet on next year.

Plenty more to discuss on that front.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 02:41 AM

I used to bet on the national every year in much the same way Steve. I had similar doubts but actually stopped a few years back when working for William Hill. The amount of effort put into it by the bookies is unbelievable. The build up lasts for weeks and every employee has to work that day. When you see the amount of money they make on that single meeting, you can see why!

Incidentally I made about £200 on a little experiment a couple of months back. Using a Web sites free trial I got free bets from most major bookies and laid those bets off on another site. It was eye opening that most of the money was made laying off rather than betting.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 06:32 AM

Some things I've read in defence of jump racing: the horses are trained to race; they want to race and they love it; they want to be in front; to them, it's fun.

Well I can believe the first of those, and I can infer from that that they are simply doing as they're told. I don't know how you can possibly claim the others, as horses can't talk. Every year at the start of the race there are several nervous horses that won't get into line without a lot of chivvying, and the start always looks a bit shambolic to me. I suppose that not lining up properly doesn't matter much when you have four miles-plus to run.

I noticed that several jockeys pulled their horses up during the race, ostensibly because they were starting to detect some distress. I wonder if some jockeys are pressurised into keeping going at all costs. Also, I thought that for much of the race loose horses were an absolute menace this year.

Three horses died in this three-day meeting. Since 2010, 36 horses have died at the Grand National festival. 49 horses have died at horse-racing events this year alone. I've always been aware that horses can occasionally be fatally injured in the National, but I wasn't aware of these numbers until now and. I think they're shocking.

Those protesters did a successful job on me and I think they have a good point. Next year I think I'll bet on the FA Cup Final instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 07:13 AM

...they want to race ...; they want to be in front; ...

When a horse loses it's jockey it could stop but, generally, they keep on running and they keep on jumping the fences if they happen to be in the way. They are heard animals and will do what the others do.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 07:16 AM

..herd animals, not heard. Doh!

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 07:47 AM

I heard they were a herd

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 09:15 AM

Herd instinct is possible but it could be more complicated. A successful ride often means a rewarded horse, and who knows whether a horse can't be conditioned to expect a reward for finishing... The horse doesn't know the rule that he's disqualified if the jockey isn't still on his back, the sudden lighter weight might spur him on... Whether a horse knows that he's won is summat else!

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 02:07 PM

Betting on football is far easier in the scheme I mentioned earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 23 - 06:09 PM

Or I might not bet at all. I've never been a betting person, and it pees me off big time when I see betting ads posted up all round football stadiums and on players' shirts.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 02:39 AM

Ultimately, the only winners in the betting industry are the bookies. The punters are nothing more than mugs - fools who are easily parted from their money. Absolutely not for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 03:07 AM

BWM - the same can be said for all known vices. It is when it becomes an addiction the problems start. Those who gamble, drink, smoke, eat too much, snort coke or even spend money running folk clubs are not all mugs and fools. Most of them just enjoy it.

I do not bet BTW. As I said earlier, I made £200 using a betting and laying off system a couple of months back. It is possible to make money but most of it by far as made laying off - IE, what the bookies do!

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 03:10 AM

They could make the fences smaller, and the course not so long and crowded. Perhaps then the horses would not die.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 03:16 AM

I’ll take your word for it, Dave - betting isn’t, and has never been, of even the tiniest smidgeon of interest to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 03:49 AM

Having a dog has never been one of my interests John but I have never referred to those who have them as mugs and fools who are easily parted from their money ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 06:06 AM

Horses still die on shorter courses with fewer and lower fences, Al. It wouldn't trouble me were it a rare occurrence, as accidents can happen in any sport despite care being taken to avoid them, but those numbers I dug up appalled me.

I'd like to see some really imaginative efforts made to make jump racing much safer. I know next to nothing about horses, jockeys and trainers, so I don't know what to suggest. I don't go for banning stuff. I wouldn't ban boxing, heading footballs, fox hunting or bullfighting, though in the latter two cases I'd campaign to persuade people not to do them and threaten to ostracise and ridicule them if they continued to indulge. Animals involved in our sports add a whole extra dimension to the responsibility we should bear. We humans get to choose what risks to take or whether to not take any risks, but animals don't have a choice at all. I'm happy to see stuff already banned staying banned. I can't watch rugby because of the prospective sight of two very large people smashing into each other at a net speed of 30mph. Whatever stirs yer loins...

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 08:16 AM

For many race-goers and fans watching on TV, the whole point of jump racing is the danger. That’s the thrill. Car racing tickles the same receptors for a different set of folks.

My brother-in-law loves motor sport. I don’t get it, myself — in real life it’s noisy and hot, stinking of fuel and exhaust, and on TV it’s just machines going in circles. When something bad happens, he’s all excited, but all I see is a natural consequence of combining speed with centrifugal force.

Jump racing at least offers the spectacle of beautiful horses doing remarkable things, but it’s spoiled by all the humans involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 01:25 PM

”Having a dog has never been one of my interests John but I have never referred to those who have them as mugs and fools who are easily parted from their money ;-)”

Straw Man, Dave. I thought better of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 02:25 PM

No straw man John. Just pointing out that different people spend their money on different things and just because you don't understand what people get out of gambling doesn't mean that they are mugs and fools.

Horses for courses. If you'll excuse the pun :-)

Second time today that someone has mentioned straw man where there was no such thing. I think a link to the list of logical fallacies and their meanings is in the offing...

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 03:42 PM

It’s a Straw Man Dave. I’m done.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 23 - 05:56 PM

In no sense is that a straw man. I think you need a definition, BWM.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 23 - 02:50 AM

From Wiki - A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion

Your argument was that a) All people who gamble are mugs and fools who are soon parted from their money, followed by b) betting was of no interest to you. I refuted a by saying that most vices have a financial cost and people are willing to pay for their enjoyment. That does not make them mugs and fools. No straw man there. As to b I simply pointed out that dogs were no interest to me but that did not entitle me to call dog owners mugs or fools. False equivalence, maybe but I would say simply an example. Straw man? Definitely not.

I am glad that you are done though. I have wasted enough time explaining to you why I am right :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 23 - 05:19 AM

Sounds like you're in Cloughie mode this morning, Dave!

When a player disagreed with him about tactics, he said, "I ask him which way that he thinks it should be done. We get down to it, then we talk about it for 20 minutes and decide that I was right."

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 23 - 06:42 AM

I've got to admit, I've never really liked horses since I worked with a woman who had her ear bitten off by a horse (in a fit of high spirits, she said. I think it was the horse who was in high spirits - not her.)

However I think people should be nice to horses and not make them do sports that kill them....play nicely at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 23 - 08:22 AM

The owner of the horse that was killed at the first fence has blamed the protesters. He said that they had unsettled the horses. Well, I think that the responsibility there, if it was indeed a case of the horses being unsettled, was with the stewards. Had they seen horses unsettled before the race began, then the race should not have been started. The race is a massive moneyspinner for all involved and the pressure to make it go ahead must be immense. I do feel sorry for the chap who owned the horse, but the fact is that there were no protesters at that first fence, and I think he was blaming the wrong people.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 23 - 09:07 AM

Indeed, Steve. There are times that you have to cut your losses, give up and just accept that some people are just wrong :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Apr 23 - 09:37 AM

Going to our local steeplechase here next Sat. Love watching horses.

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 23 - 01:10 PM

Why do horses like chasing steeples anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 23 - 01:16 PM

And what about point-to-point? I mean, what IS the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Grand National
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Apr 23 - 04:01 PM

> And what about point-to-point? I mean, what IS the point?

Methinks it's actually a closer simulation of the original exercise: The Hunt. At least in racing and point-to-point, no foxes are harmed.