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Origins: The Garden Gate

GUEST,Robert B. Waltz 31 May 23 - 09:03 PM
GUEST,Robert B. Waltz 31 May 23 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 31 May 23 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Robert B. Waltz 31 May 23 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 31 May 23 - 02:42 AM
Steve Gardham 30 May 23 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Robert B. Waltz 30 May 23 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 30 May 23 - 11:43 AM
GUEST 30 May 23 - 08:47 AM
r.padgett 30 May 23 - 07:33 AM
Joe Offer 29 May 23 - 04:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 31 May 23 - 09:03 PM

By the way -- I forgot to say this because mudcat stopped responding as I was writing my last note -- thanks to Nick Dow for pointing out the errors on "The Garden Gate." With roughly 80,000 references in the Ballad Index, it's really not humanly possible for them all to be right. :-) But I appreciate anything that gets me closer.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 31 May 23 - 11:30 AM

Nick Dow wrote: Thanks, Robert, I read everything in the index including your name without connecting it to your authorship of the above post!

No particular reason you should have. My name isn't on the TBI, after all. When we originally proposed it, the idea was that a lot of people would contribute and I would just merge it all together. That didn't work too well. :-) But what matters is the data, not the editor name!

As for the RVW text -- you're right; it's obviously not "The Garden Gate." It's short enough that classifying it is a bit hard, but I moved it to #419; it's at least not an absurd location. :-) Those sort-of-love-related lyrics are a real pain. :-)


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 May 23 - 05:21 AM

Thanks, Robert, I read everything in the index including your name without connecting it to your authorship of the above post! So I'm not so clever after all.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 31 May 23 - 04:10 AM

Nick Dow wrote: The Ballad index suggests that TGG is the same song as The OLD Garden Gate, which it is not. The latter is a version of T Stands for Thomas or The Verdant Braes of Skreen. This may be found in numerous collections including 'Irish County Songs'. The McPeaks had the song. Skreen is short for Ballinascreen. The index refers to the RVW collection and Roy Palmer's selection. It is Roud 419 and has 136 entries.

The intent is certainly not to imply they're the same. :-) But things do get mis-filed. I will check the Palmer/RVW item.

Roud #418 is in the Ballad Index as "The Garden Gate"; #419 is "The False Young Man (The Rose in the Garden, As I Walked Out)." At least one RVW "Old Garden Gate" is in the Roud Index as #418, so it's not just me. :-)


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 31 May 23 - 02:42 AM

The Ballad index suggests that TGG is the same song as The OLD Garden Gate, which it is not. The latter is a version of T Stands for Thomas or The Verdant Braes of Skreen. This may be found in numerous collections including 'Irish County Songs'. The McPeaks had the song. Skreen is short for Ballinascreen. The index refers to the RVW collection and Roy Palmer's selection. It is Roud 419 and has 136 entries.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 May 23 - 04:00 PM

Upton also wrote 'Homeward and Outward Bound' the sea song/chanty which definitely made it into oral tradition in a variety of forms. Upton wrote several pieces which were printed along with TGG in the Universal Songster c1825 and if my memory serves me right he wrote most of his songs for the theatre in the late 18th century. I have The Garden Gate with music in Bingley's Select Vocalist which I need to date.

Whereas 'Outward Bound' exists in a variety of forms, quite different format from the original, TGG very rarely differs from the original, which is probably why people like Sharp didn't bother with it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 30 May 23 - 01:23 PM

Nick Dow wrote, The Hammonds found it in Dorset, and dismissed it as 'not Folk'.

They're right by origin, not right by transmission count. :-) It's by W. Upton and W. T. Parke, and was in existence by 1830; there are many broadsides. Here is the Ballad Index entry. Note the myriad Roud Index entries -- though about three-fourths of them have no informant supplied and are broadsides or versions transmitted entirely by print.

Garden Gate, The

DESCRIPTION: Mary and William have planned a secret meeting. She arrives at the garden gate at eight; William is not there. Nine comes; she searches, then vows to forsake him. He finally arrives at ten; he had been shopping for a ring. She forgives him
AUTHOR: W. Upton and W T. Parke (source: Sabine Baring-Gould, English Minstrelsy, according to Roud/Bishop-NewPenguinBookOfEnglishFolkSongs)
EARLIEST DATE: 1846 (Dixon-AncientPoemsBalladsSongsOfThePeasantryOfEngland); before 1830 (broadside, Bodleian Harding B 25(709))
KEYWORDS: courting nightvisit separation marriage
FOUND IN: Britain(England(South,West),Scotland(Aber)) US(MW) Ireland
REFERENCES (14 citations):
Dixon-AncientPoemsBalladsSongsOfThePeasantryOfEngland, Song #32, pp. 226-227, "The Garden Gate" (1 text)
Bell-Combined-EarlyBallads-CustomsBalladsSongsPeasantryEngland, pp. 441-443, "The Garden-Gate" (1 text)
Greig-FolkSongInBuchan-FolkSongOfTheNorthEast #124, p. 2, "The Garden Gate" (1 text)
Greig/Duncan5 981, "The Garden Gate" (9 texts, 4 tunes)
Broadwood/Maitland-EnglishCountySongs, pp. 72-73, "The Garden Gate" (1 text, 1 tune)
Williams-Wiltshire-WSRO Mi 577, "Garden Gate" (1 text)
Palmer-FolkSongsCollectedBy-Ralph-VaughanWilliams, #20, "The Old Garden Gate" (1 text, 1 tune)
Roud/Bishop-NewPenguinBookOfEnglishFolkSongs #25, "The Garden Gate" (1 text, 1 tune)
Henry/Huntingdon/Herrmann-SamHenrysSongsOfThePeople H770, p. 485, "The Garden Gate" (1 text, 1 tune)
Eddy-BalladsAndSongsFromOhio 78, "The Garden Gate" (1 text, 1 tune)
Brown/Belden/Hudson-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore3 319, "The Garden Gate" (1 fragment, in which the girl tells her mother she is going to the garden gate; it may be a separate song, but with only four lines, we cannot tell )
Brown/Schinhan-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore5 319, "The Garden Gate" (1 tune plus the short text)
Forget-Me-Not-Songster, p. 139, "Garden Gate" (1 text), plus the "nswer to Garden Gate" on p. 140
Wolf-AmericanSongSheets, #715, p. 47, "The Garden Gate" (1 reference)

ST E078 (Partial)
Roud #418
BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Harding B 25(709), "The Garden Gate" ("The day was spent, the moon shone bright"), T. Birt (London), 1828-1829; also Harding B 17(105b), Harding B 11(87), Harding B 18(190), Firth c.14(180), Firth b.26(368), Firth b.25(187), Harding B 11(1292), Harding B 11(3454), Firth b.25(272), "The Garden Gate"
LOCSheet, sm1885 01480, "The Garden Gate," Geo. D Newhall (Cincinnati), 1885 (tune) ["composed by Jerome Hill"]
LOCSinging, sb20158b, "The Garden Gate" ("The day was clos'd, the moon shone bright"), H. De Marsan (New York), 1859-1878; also as104220, "The Garden Gate" ("The day was spent, the moon shone bright")

NOTES [117 words]: See also Bodleian, Harding B 11(87), "Answer to The Garden Gate" ("One wintry eve the moon it shone"), J. Pitts (London), 1819-1844; also Harding B 25(71)[some words illegible], Firth b.26(368), Harding B 11(1292), "Answer to The Garden Gate." [In the "Answer," Mary hides when William arrives, to test whether he is true. It's not really an answer; rather, the two pieces tell the story from different perspectives. - RBW]
Broadside LOCSinging sb20158b: H. De Marsan dating per Studying Nineteenth-Century Popular Song by Paul Charosh in American Music, Winter 1997, Vol 15.4, Table 1, available at FindArticles site.
Broadsides LOCSinging sb20158b and Bodleian Harding B 18(190) are duplicates. - BS
Last updated in version 6.0
File: E078

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2023 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 30 May 23 - 11:43 AM

The Hammonds found it in Dorset, and dismissed it as 'not Folk'. I think it is probably from a play or the 18th Century Pleasure Gardens. Lucy Broadwood collected it from Mr F. Scarlett Potter. Halford, Shipston on Stow. She adds the note. 'A Version is given in Bell's Songs of the Peasantry and may be found on ballad sheets.' This explains why the Hammonds ignored it, however, they did collect the tune from George Bowditch of Charmouth. Broadwood added the note that the tune was composed circa 1860, however, Purslow took issue with the age of the text and quotes 'Miss Broadwood may be correct, but the words are much older, and I have seen them on broadsheets dating back to 1810 or earlier. Roud gives it as number 418 and has 351 entries. Collinson had it in his archives, collected from Mrs Oliver and separately Mrs. Baker in Kent, Gardiner found it in Hampshire noting that the tune is the same as County Songs, and is to be found in Boosey and Hawks 'Songs of England' attributed to W.T. Parke.
Finally, Carey, Stubbs, and Plunkett found the song in Sussex. W.T. Parke is noted as William Thomas Parke (15 February 1761 – 26 August 1847) was an English oboist and composer. He played in notable concerts of the day; in retirement, he published Musical Memoirs.


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 23 - 08:47 AM

An air called the garden gate appears in the forde collection.
Collected from Caroline Stacey from near bristol between 1845 and 1850


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Subject: RE: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 May 23 - 07:33 AM

This song was collected and appears in "Bushes and Briars" ad anthology of Essex folk songs 1979
The notes say also appears in Lucy Broadwood's English County Songs ~ attributed to Warwickshire

If memory serves this a song recorded of "Frank Hinchliffe" from Sheffield on his vynl record

So must have had some currency from before turn of the century late 1800s ~ Bell's of the Peasantry also ~ presumably a broadside ballad

Ray


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Subject: Origins: The Garden Gate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 23 - 04:08 PM

https://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/english/gardgate.htm

THE GARDEN GATE

The day was spent, the moon shone bright,
The village clock struck eight;
Young Mary hastened, with delight,
Unto the garden-gate:
But what was there that made her sad?
The gate was there, but not the lad,
Which made poor Mary say and sigh,
Was ever poor girl so sad as I?

2. She traced the garden here and there,
The village clock struck nine;
Which made poor Mary sigh, and say,
You shan't, you shan't be mine!
You promised to meet at the gate at eight,
You ne'er shall keep me, nor make me wait,
For I'll let all such creatures see,
They ne'er shall make a fool of me!

3. She traced the garden here and there,
The village clock struck ten;
Young William caught her in his arms,
No more to part again:
For he'd been to buy the ring that day,
And O! he had been a long, long way;
Then, how could Mary cruel prove,
To banish the lad she so dearly did love?

4. Up with the morning sun they rose,
To church they went away,
And all the village joyful were,
Upon their wedding-day:
Now in a cot, by a river side,
William and Mary both reside;
And she blesses the night that she did wait
For her absent swain, at the garden-gate.


http://www.joe-offer.com/folkinfo/forum/1241.html


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