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BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere
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Subject: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:14 PM I have just read a report from the Chartered Institute and Development trying to downplay the extent of the gig economy. Based on the headline, it is flawed in a number of ways. To drill down on three. 1. It refers to the gig economy at around 480 thousand representing 1.4% of the workforce. That would be a workforce of nearly half a billion roughly the size of the EU workforce. 2. The report refers to dispatch and food deliverers only being 20% of the gig economy instead of providing numbers which show what percentage of people working in that sector have to work in the gig economy. 3. It refers to a large proportion of the gig economy working in areas in the service sector, such as web design, which largely comprise freelancers working with several companies. It looks like an instance, like the tobacco/gun lobby, who have commissioned researchers to see out 'evidence' that suites ther narrative and disregard everything else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:17 PM Interesting to know the state of the gig ecnomy worldwide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Stanron Date: 12 Sep 23 - 06:16 PM "It looks like an instance, like the tobacco/gun lobby, who have commissioned researchers to see out 'evidence' that suites ther narrative and disregard everything else. " Why does the Mayor of London spring to mind? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Sep 23 - 07:59 PM Why would he spring to your mind in this context? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 13 Sep 23 - 09:23 AM Minor nit: > around 480 thousand representing 1.4% of the workforce .... on my trusty calculator, 480 000 / 0.014 comes out as 34 million (and change). That sounds about right for the UK workforce. Or am I reading it wrong? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Howard Jones Date: 14 Sep 23 - 11:27 AM The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development is a professional body for HR and aims to improve employment practices. What do you think their "narrative" is? You seem to be suggesting they are downplaying the numbers, but why do you think they would do this, and what evidence do you have that their figures are wrong? Their recommendations are aimed at improving their employment status by, for example, removing the distinction between self-employment and employed status. I do think there is a difficulty in defining the "gig economy". They have included freelancers in areas such as IT, media etc who probably don't think of themselves in the same category as Deliveroo riders. However when you think about it, it's difficult to see what the difference is, except that "freelancers" are probably better paid per job. An area which I suspect is under-reported in these figures (which come from official ONS surveys) is people like myself for whom occasional gigging as a musician is a paid hobby rather than a means of earning a living. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 15 Sep 23 - 09:43 AM Freelancers tend to have control over what work they do, when they do it, and under what terms, whereas gig economy workers livelihoods tend to be on the whim of if and when their employers have work for them, and are generally unable to forward plan their workload. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 15 Sep 23 - 10:16 AM Australia - Government prepares for battle over the gig economy Gig economy workers in Australia are set to benefit from minimum pay and protection against unfair deactivation. A series of new industrial relations laws has been released to remove pressure from gig workers relying on tips to make ends meet. Ride-share drivers and food delivery riders are among those who will benefit from the changes ... The gig economy is large, as it covers food delivery drivers, aged care staffing apps and the National Disability Insurance Scheme. The government says people working in those areas look like employees but are actually working as independent contractors - and there is a significant lack of rights and protections compared to a real employee ... It comes as part of Labor's 2022 election commitment to regulate the gig economy, which aims to reduce unsafe practices that have led to delivery driver deaths ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 15 Sep 23 - 12:13 PM Question: what's the difference between somebody in the gig economy and somebody with a zero-hours contract? or is the former a euphemism for the latter? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 15 Sep 23 - 05:54 PM I don;t think there is much difference between the two except that zero hours contract are defended as a means of providing flexible working where it suits the employee when the other side is where workers have no guarantee of working hours to suit the needs of the employer. On top of that there is an additional government narrative that it is the reusability of employees to have enough employers collectively meeting an individual's living needs, irrespective of the fact that employer's are not required to provide working hour that fit around employees other working commitment. How many CEOs are too lazy to work 24 hours/day based upon the availability of their workforce? How many, for example agricultural employers provide 24 hours/day means of fruit picking and free transport to/form their 'main' employment/homes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Howard Jones Date: 18 Sep 23 - 07:50 AM Having control over when, where and how you perform the work is what distinguishes an independent contractor from an employee, and has tax implications. I think it is one of the distinctions the CIPD would like to see removed. Freelancers aren't necessarily contractors. I think the distinction between them and gig workers is that "freelancers" are more likely to be professionals and are probably better able to negotiate their contracts. The study shows that the gig economy suits a lot of the people working in it. It is not only employers who like to have flexibility. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the happiest are those for whom it is a side hustle. Of course, where people rely entirely on the gig economy for a living such flexibility may be only notional, and the study shows these are the least happy with it. I think the numbers are probably under-reported, but that's because there will be a lot of people who simply don't turn up in any records. You can earn up to £1000 before you have to tell HMRC. A lot of people will be doing casual work for private individuals and are probably paid in cash, with no record of their employment anywhere. The gig economy is no different from full-time employment. There are those who it suits and those who it doesn't, and that goes for both workers and employers. There are some who are exploited and others who do very nicely from it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 15 Sep 23 - 10:16 AM Australia - Government prepares for battle over the gig economy Gig economy workers in Australia are set to benefit from minimum pay and protection against unfair deactivation. A series of new industrial relations laws has been released to remove pressure from gig workers relying on tips to make ends meet. Ride-share drivers and food delivery riders are among those who will benefit from the changes ... The gig economy is large, as it covers food delivery drivers, aged care staffing apps and the National Disability Insurance Scheme. The government says people working in those areas look like employees but are actually working as independent contractors - and there is a significant lack of rights and protections compared to a real employee ... It comes as part of Labor's 2022 election commitment to regulate the gig economy, which aims to reduce unsafe practices that have led to delivery driver deaths ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Howard Jones Date: 14 Sep 23 - 11:27 AM The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development is a professional body for HR and aims to improve employment practices. What do you think their "narrative" is? You seem to be suggesting they are downplaying the numbers, but why do you think they would do this, and what evidence do you have that their figures are wrong? Their recommendations are aimed at improving their employment status by, for example, removing the distinction between self-employment and employed status. I do think there is a difficulty in defining the "gig economy". They have included freelancers in areas such as IT, media etc who probably don't think of themselves in the same category as Deliveroo riders. However when you think about it, it's difficult to see what the difference is, except that "freelancers" are probably better paid per job. An area which I suspect is under-reported in these figures (which come from official ONS surveys) is people like myself for whom occasional gigging as a musician is a paid hobby rather than a means of earning a living. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Howard Jones Date: 18 Sep 23 - 07:50 AM Having control over when, where and how you perform the work is what distinguishes an independent contractor from an employee, and has tax implications. I think it is one of the distinctions the CIPD would like to see removed. Freelancers aren't necessarily contractors. I think the distinction between them and gig workers is that "freelancers" are more likely to be professionals and are probably better able to negotiate their contracts. The study shows that the gig economy suits a lot of the people working in it. It is not only employers who like to have flexibility. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the happiest are those for whom it is a side hustle. Of course, where people rely entirely on the gig economy for a living such flexibility may be only notional, and the study shows these are the least happy with it. I think the numbers are probably under-reported, but that's because there will be a lot of people who simply don't turn up in any records. You can earn up to £1000 before you have to tell HMRC. A lot of people will be doing casual work for private individuals and are probably paid in cash, with no record of their employment anywhere. The gig economy is no different from full-time employment. There are those who it suits and those who it doesn't, and that goes for both workers and employers. There are some who are exploited and others who do very nicely from it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Sep 23 - 07:59 PM Why would he spring to your mind in this context? |
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Subject: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:14 PM I have just read a report from the Chartered Institute and Development trying to downplay the extent of the gig economy. Based on the headline, it is flawed in a number of ways. To drill down on three. 1. It refers to the gig economy at around 480 thousand representing 1.4% of the workforce. That would be a workforce of nearly half a billion roughly the size of the EU workforce. 2. The report refers to dispatch and food deliverers only being 20% of the gig economy instead of providing numbers which show what percentage of people working in that sector have to work in the gig economy. 3. It refers to a large proportion of the gig economy working in areas in the service sector, such as web design, which largely comprise freelancers working with several companies. It looks like an instance, like the tobacco/gun lobby, who have commissioned researchers to see out 'evidence' that suites ther narrative and disregard everything else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:17 PM Interesting to know the state of the gig ecnomy worldwide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 15 Sep 23 - 09:43 AM Freelancers tend to have control over what work they do, when they do it, and under what terms, whereas gig economy workers livelihoods tend to be on the whim of if and when their employers have work for them, and are generally unable to forward plan their workload. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 15 Sep 23 - 05:54 PM I don;t think there is much difference between the two except that zero hours contract are defended as a means of providing flexible working where it suits the employee when the other side is where workers have no guarantee of working hours to suit the needs of the employer. On top of that there is an additional government narrative that it is the reusability of employees to have enough employers collectively meeting an individual's living needs, irrespective of the fact that employer's are not required to provide working hour that fit around employees other working commitment. How many CEOs are too lazy to work 24 hours/day based upon the availability of their workforce? How many, for example agricultural employers provide 24 hours/day means of fruit picking and free transport to/form their 'main' employment/homes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: Stanron Date: 12 Sep 23 - 06:16 PM "It looks like an instance, like the tobacco/gun lobby, who have commissioned researchers to see out 'evidence' that suites ther narrative and disregard everything else. " Why does the Mayor of London spring to mind? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 13 Sep 23 - 09:23 AM Minor nit: > around 480 thousand representing 1.4% of the workforce .... on my trusty calculator, 480 000 / 0.014 comes out as 34 million (and change). That sounds about right for the UK workforce. Or am I reading it wrong? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gig Economy UK & Elsewhere From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 15 Sep 23 - 12:13 PM Question: what's the difference between somebody in the gig economy and somebody with a zero-hours contract? or is the former a euphemism for the latter? |
