BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 05:24 PM

I simply gave one of a number of PERFECTLY POSSIBLE reasons why the BBC are loath to refer to Hamas directly as ‘terrorists’. Nothing more. The rest of your post is nonsense - no-one has said any of what you’ve suggested, they are your words straight out of your mouth, certainly not mine.

I’m in agreement with you, I haven’t said any of the things you're suggesting, so why are you trying to fight with me?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 05:03 PM

They don't call Hamas terrorists because the word is emotional and tendentious. They don't call the IDF terrorists for the exact same reason. The BBC's remit is to try to be neutral. Tabloids and politicians, on the other hand, are free to use that expression at will. If you want the Beeb to call Hamas terrorists, then I challenge you to tell me why you don't think that the Beeb shouldn't also call the IDF terrorists. After all, 18000 innocents dead at their hands, including 8000 children? Unless you think that's OK?   

The old saw is that the terrorist is the man with the small bomb. There's something in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 03:02 PM

The BBC have journalists/reporters embedded in Gaza and the West Bank. They probably don’t describe Hamas directly as ‘terrorists’ in order to protect their people ‘on the ground’, and to avoid antagonising Hamas/Hezbollah and their supporters into denying the BBC access to those areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 02:13 PM

But it's not just the tabloids. As even the BBC acknowledge, Hamas are 'proscribed as a terror organisation by the UK Government and others'.

So it is, at the very least, the tabloids and the Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 01:58 PM

Nigel, you have that wrong. "Terrorists" is a tendentious word, whether correctly applied to Hamas or not (correctly, in my view). I could argue that the IDF killing thousands of children in Gaza, or helping settlers to illegally evict Palestinians from their family farms and killing dozens while they're at it, are acts of terrorism. The BBC is trying to be neutral, that's all, as is its remit. We'll leave the emotional and tendentious tags to the tabloids, don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 01:40 PM

"America recognises..." is weasel words par excellence.

On a par, perhaps, with the BBC who insist on describing Hamas as "a group recognised as terrorists by the UK government."

BBC will not describe them as terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 06:40 AM

"America recognizes that British media is highly skewed."

This comment is unjustified and is completely without foundation. In our country, as elsewhere, you choose your sources carefully and you choose at least several. "America recognises..." is weasel words par excellence.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 23 - 06:36 AM

Almost 500 Palestinians have been killed by the IDF or settlers in the occupied West Bank in 2023, the deadliest year there on record for Palestinian civilians. There has been a proliferation since October 7, all eyes having been on Gaza instead. The IDF have been blocking ambulance access to hospitals and have even tear-gassed an operating theatre. These are war crimes in an area that's not even supposed to be part of the war. There have been multiple raids on a refugee camp in Jenin which have resulted in killings. The Al Jazeera website has an horrific video showing soldiers killing two children. A photo I saw a couple of days ago, I can't remember where, showed IDF soldiers protecting a bunch of settlers who had been attacking Palestinians.

The IDF has turned feral and the regime is doing nothing to stop them.

Multiple sources. All this information, and much more, is easy to find. Of course, we don't have to believe any of it, especially if we prefer to believe that Israel is merely "defending itself." I have a lovely carol concert playing on the radio as I type this. I feel sick. If there's a God, he's not in Bethlehem.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Dec 23 - 07:47 PM

Hostages Waved White Flag Before Being Shot By Israeli Troops

That story has these bullets near the top:

Here’s what we know:
Israel’s chief of staff, Gen. Herzi Halevy, said the soldiers’ actions were contrary to the military’s rules of engagement. “It is forbidden to shoot at those who raise a white flag and seek to surrender,” he said.

The deaths highlight the dire risks faced by the remaining hostages.

Friendly-fire killings of hostages may force Israel to reconsider Gaza strategy.

Here is what we know about the hostages mistakenly killed by the Israeli military.

Israeli forces withdraw after besieging Gaza hospital, leaving behind bodies and destruction.

Gaza communications have been nearly blacked out for two days.

Tensions in Red Sea over Gaza war escalate.

The whole region is a tinderbox.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 23 - 01:33 PM

If you are familiar with State Dept speech, Biden has condemned Netanyahu repeatedly. America recognizes that British media is highly skewed.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 23 - 12:29 PM

There’s only one way out of this Gaza war and Netanyahu is blocking it. Joe Biden must force him from power — Jonathan Freedland, Guardian<

Netanyahu and his fellow extremist cronies are even stretching ardently pro-Israel Biden's patience. Netanyahu's only remaining target is to save his own skin - should he lose power he'll probably end up in jail, so he has to go to every extreme to keep Israelis onside. He won't countenance talk of a two-state solution. He won't countenance any Palestinian involvement in the future running of Gaza but, equally, it is not possible for Israel to run it either. No Arab state will even remotely consider stepping in to run Gaza without Palestinian involvement. So there can be no end to this until Bibi and his henchmen's are dismissed, never to return. What a mess. So we look to the country that has done the most by far to prop Israel up. And all hands are tied there too.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 23 - 10:49 AM

I think the accidental killings of three of their own by the IDF will put even more pressure on Netanyahu. He has failed to neutralise Hamas, and will continue to fail, and it blows wide open the claim that they are doing everything possible to avoid civilian casualties. The three were unarmed and were waving white flags, and one was shot dead even after he'd pleaded with the soldiers in Hebrew.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 23 - 10:24 AM

Oh Yeah, at 18 I did not want to be killed in war either.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 23 - 10:20 AM

From the river to the sea is not a myth. The West Bank is the OCCUPIED West Bank. The forcible eviction of three-quarters of a million Palestinians from what was their homeland in order to create the Jewish state, an act of vicious racism colluded in by the most influential western nations, took place within the lifetimes of some of the older members of Mudcat. You don't get to justify it by providing a list of other victims of evictions or cleansings. We can talk about them in other threads if you like. I've never advocated the destruction of Israel (and Hamas stinks to high heaven), because after 75 years we are where we are and eight million generally peaceful Israelis, the vast majority there only by accident of birth, have the right to exist in peace. But the Palestinian people, mostly now the descendants of those refugees, have an extremely acute sense of their own history and that is not going to go away just because the IDF wants to drive them out of Gaza and because murderous settlers want them out of the occupied West Bank. We have an inept and corrupt administration in the Palestinian Authority, we have an Israeli regime consisting of murderous, racist thugs and we have western governments propping up Israel's military unquestioningly because they have to constantly look over their shoulders fearfully at their pro-Israel lobbies (who no-one voted for). The Gaza-Israel crisis is not the same as any other crisis in your list and we don't get to solve problems like it by saying that, well, that's the way the world is. There but for fortune it could be your or my kids and grandkids being pulled from under the rubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 23 - 08:51 AM

This is the magical time of year but maybe what we really need is a good dose of realism. There are a lot of nativity scenes but where was the original manger? It is in the West Bank controlled by the Palestinian authority. Bethlehem used to be 86% Christian but is now Muslim. Indulge me for bringing up history but things change, countries, religions, boundaries, and Empires.

Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire for 400 years but now an ottoman is furniture. Byzantium became Constantinople and now is Istanbul. The Irish used to have the island to themselves but not anymore after 30 years of war. Everyone eventually comes to an accommodation. Was it unjust for Arab families to have to move, yes but it is not rare. Muslims moved to Pakistan from India, 12 million ethnic Germans were moved out of Russia and Poland after WWII. A million Greeks were shoved out of Turkey in 1923, a million Ghanians were shoved out of Nigeria in 1983, almost a million French out of Algeria in 1962, about a million Syrians moved to Germany 8 years ago.

No one knows about being pushed off land than the Jews. That includes every Arab country they once lived in. History is brutal and humans are not good people. America was an experiment for the ideal of diversity but white Christian nationalists want to cure that disease.
People get moved colonized or killed. Mexico one extended almost to Idaho. A Muslim Army once took over much of the world until stopped in Spain. Kosovo was the cradle of Christianity then it became Muslim. In the 90's the war about it stopped,. There have been over 6 attempts to make Palestine a State but their leaders have said NO. If they had said yes 70 years ago Gaza would look more like Dubai instead of believing in the River to the Sea myth.

Where do they think Israel is going? After 4 wars, how is it going for Palestinians. There comes a time for common sense to prevail except for Hamas? I expect things will have to eventually change.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 02:51 PM

Reports are that Biden has been trying diplomatically to get Israel to aim better and pull back by the end of the year. Since Netanyahu's survival in office seems to be dependent upon his slaughter of civilians in Gaza, I predict no suitable response. And today they're saying that three of the hostages were shot in Gaza by Israeli military.

There is no "winning" this. They just need to stop. All of them. Can Palestinian civilians shame Hamas in to leaving? Probably not. But what Israel is doing now isn't getting rid of Hamas either.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 02:01 PM

Somebody on the BBC the other day was talking about trying out using AI by asking one of the apps to write a profile of him. It got the fact that he was a writer right; it then named three books he hadn't written.
Sure what can go wrong, as Oppenheimer might have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 12:06 PM

WarGames

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 10:59 AM

This morning a discussion on NPR about how Israel uses AI to train their weapons launching system to identify military targets. "Much faster than human operators," they say. Apparently they have a lot of on the ground photos from intelligence sources to mark those particular sites.

The problem? They don't train the AI on what non-military targets and civilian sites look like. AI learns from itself and doesn't know what to exclude. What could possibly go wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 04:38 AM

Yes, Israel is flooding the tunnels where Hamas have said they are keeping the Israeli hostages and hostages from other countries who were working in Israel, deep below the bombing… and there's an aquifer below Gaza that provides fresh water.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 07:38 AM

Israel is flooding Hamas tunnels with seawater.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 06:57 AM

Look up the word intimated. I did not quote.
There is such a thing as reading between the lines.
At any rate, it is about time.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 06:44 AM

No he didn't. From the Guardian:

Biden said he told the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, that Israel was losing international support because of its “indiscriminate bombing” and that Netanyahu should change his government, which is dominated by hard-right parties.

That does not imply that Netanyahu should go. I think he should, but that is not what Biden was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 06:33 AM

Yesterday Biden ripped the bandaid off the US Israeli relationship.
He intimated that Israel needs a new government other than the most conservative regime under Netanyahu.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 03:49 AM

Do you know what puzzles me? Why is the US still funding Israel - I'm not talking about trading with them, but giving them an annual pocket-money subvention. Surely Israel is a rich country now?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 03:24 PM

Personally, I think it's the white phosphorus that is an abomination. But Israel dropped that on Lebanon so it doesn't seem to be getting the same attention as bombing with other weapons in Gaza.

Israel used U.S.-supplied white phosphorus in Lebanon attack

DHEIRA, Lebanon — Israel used U.S.-supplied white phosphorus munitions in an October attack in southern Lebanon that injured at least nine civilians in what a rights group says should be investigated as a war crime, according to a Washington Post analysis of shell fragments found in a small village.

A journalist working for The Post found remnants of three 155-millimeter artillery rounds fired into Dheira, near the border of Israel, which incinerated at least four homes, residents said. The rounds, which eject felt wedges saturated with white phosphorous that burns at high temperatures, produce billowing smoke to obscure troop movements as it falls haphazardly over a wide area. Its contents can stick to skin, causing potentially fatal burns and respiratory damage, and its use near civilian areas could be prohibited under international humanitarian law.

Of the nine injured in Israel’s attack on Dheira, at least three were hospitalized, one for days.

Lot production codes found on the shells match the nomenclature used by the U.S. military to categorize domestically produced munitions, which show they were made by ammunition depots in Louisiana and Arkansas in 1989 and 1992. The light green color and other markings — like “WP” printed on one of the remnants — are consistent with white phosphorous rounds, according to arms experts.

Who knows when the US supplied it or how long Israel has been holding onto it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 03:17 PM

I'm not shocked and I know who provides the arms. We also provide arms to Israel and we also have "rules." Both our countries also have very powerful pro-Israel lobbies. So no surprises, no shocks. Doesn't make what's going on any less wrong. The only way that Hamas will be "destroyed", and that won't happen anyway, is by emptying Gaza of Palestinians. I don't do conspiracy theories but I'm finding it harder by the day to deny that that's what's going on. The bottom line is that Israel is wantonly slaughtering many thousands of non-combatants and they are using our weapons to do it. History will judge us.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 02:06 PM

You are shocked - SHOCKED - that the US sent bombs to Israel? Where do you think most of what they're already using came from?

Blinken defends rare move of bypassing Congress to send ammunition to Israel

Asked on ABC News’s “This Week” why the Biden administration decided to push the sale of tank ammunition to Israel without congressional review, Blinken said, “When it comes to the weapons that we transfer, there are rules that go along with them. Those rules apply to Israel, as they do to any other country, including the way they’re used and the need, the imperative of respecting international humanitarian law.”

“In the case of these particular weapons that you — that you mentioned, Israel is in combat right now with Hamas, a group that viciously attacked it on Oct. 7, that had said that if given the opportunity, it will repeat Oct. 7 again and again and again,” Blinken continued. “And we want to make sure that Israel has what it needs to defend itself against Hamas; a small portion of what has been requested is going through on an emergency basis.”

Besides this small portion, Blinken said, “Virtually everything else is going through the regular order, through Congress. It’s very important that Congress’s voice be heard in this.”

Biden soon needs to go around Congress to keep the Ukraine going, if they won't send anything that will let Ukraine end it once and for all (who knows what that would be, short of a nuclear bomb, which they once had but gave up upon US request. Russia might not have attacked if they still had their own doomsday bombs.)

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 12:59 PM

And there isn't a doubt in the world that Biden feels deeply indignant at what Cromwell did in Ireland. He doesn't seem to make the connection between one genocide and another.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 23 - 09:13 AM

Biden has bypassed Congress and authorised the supply of thousands of tank shells to Israel. That follows the dismal US veto at the Security Council. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Dec 23 - 07:19 AM

Being anti horror of War is neither anti-Islamic or antisemitic.
A soldier knows the horror, victims know the horror and many of the children are affected when their parents are both lost to terrorism.

Armchair brigadier blowhards know very little about the details of war no matter how complete their chronical may be.

I do not want to still see the repugnant face of Netanyahu.
He should be gone, but then again so should Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 04:15 AM

Victor Jara was killed half a century ago, the hands with which he tenderly plucked his guitar smashed up before he was machine-gunned and his body dumped.

On Friday, Pedro Barrientos was extradited from the US to Chile to face trial - "Another former soldier, José Navarrete, testified that, in the years after the murder, Barrientos had the habit of brandishing his pistol and declaring 'I killed Víctor Jara with this!'”

In Gaza last week, the poet Refaat Alareer was killed when his house was targeted by an Israeli missile. Shortly before he died, Alareer wrote a poem that someone may put to music:

If I must die,
you must live
to tell my story
to sell my things
to buy a piece of cloth
and some strings,
(make it white with a long tail)
so that a child, somewhere in Gaza
while looking heaven in the eye
awaiting his dad who left in a blaze—
and bid no one farewell
not even to his flesh
not even to himself—
sees the kite, my kite you made, flying up
above
and thinks for a moment an angel is there
bringing back love
If I must die
let it bring hope
let it be a tale

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 07:08 AM

If bringing down harm on Jewish people is antisemitic, I can't think of anything more antisemitic than what the Israeli regime is currently subjecting its own citizens to. If the people of Israel are being led to think that this war will end up with them living in peace and security, then someone needs to tell them that the very opposite outcome will ensue. The US won't let the Security Council do it, so, eventually, the US will have to tell them. Simultaneously, they will need to tell Netanyahu that what he has done has had nothing to do with "Israel defending itself" and that the supply of arms to Israel is stopping.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 06:25 AM

Being anti-Israeli-goverment is NOT being anti-Semitic!

Agreed - but being anti-Israeli-goverment should not be used as an excuse to BE anti-Semitic.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 05:35 AM

Utterly predictable and utterly disastrous US veto of the ceasefire resolution at the UN Security Council. That's 44 US vetos protecting Israel now. It's reached the point at which many people are saying (sorry about the weasel words, but it happens to be true) that the US is complicit in the slaughter of Gaza civilians, or that America is fighting another proxy war. They are certainly not imposing conditionality on Israel, just mouthing soft "words of concern," and are continuing to send them unlimited weapons. The pusillanimous abstention of the UK on spurious grounds must be giving Biden succour. I don't know how anyone can think that this disaster can ever help to provide the Israeli people the security they need. Not in a hundred years I'd say.

Your pro-Israel lobby still in good shape, Americans?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Dec 23 - 09:08 AM

Oy vey, America! Being anti-Israeli-goverment is NOT being anti-Semitic!

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 07:32 AM

OUTRAGE should never be balanced or crimes equivocated.
We have had too many examples of victim shaming.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 12:26 PM

Free Palestinian literature

I posted that link to Facebook and they promptly removed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 03:22 AM

Rape of Israelis by Palestinians.
Rape of Palestinians by Israelis (report in the last half-hour or so of the programme).

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 11:46 AM

Pro Iran terrorists hacked Pittsburg PA's water system. Pro Hamas terrorism supporters demonstrated in NYC at CHRISTMAS tree lighting.
Abuse of Jewish students at progressive universities is rampant.
We have pro-terrorist blowhards over here too.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 11:40 AM

Apparently the Israelis are using AI to choose their targets. I wouldn't use AI to choose my soup ingredients. Truly reckless.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Nov 23 - 06:14 PM

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/major-speech-schumer-warns-consequences-americans-dont-condemn-antisem-rcna127190

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 10:31 AM

"Today over 70% of Israelis want Netanyahu gone."

The numbers are, 30% want him gone now and the other 40-odd percent want him to resign after the war.

"Over 70% of Palestinians want peace and Hamas gone."

Before the war, just under 70% of Gazans said they had little or no trust in Hamas. The war has resulted in around 50% of Gazans now supporting Hamas, and Hamas's popularity has also spiked dramatically in the occupied West Bank, possibly to as much as 90%. I checked several sources and they tend to be consistent. You didn't apprise me of yours so I'm returning the compliment.

A possible conclusion to all this is that the Israeli regime is (once again) going to find out that there's more to winning a war, and winning the peace while we're at it, than killing tens of thousands of people who did nothing wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 09:12 AM

Many journalists have been killed in Gaza. Here are some quotes from a piece in today's Guardian by Margaret Sullivan:   

The overwhelming majority of the dead appear to be Palestinian journalists killed in Israeli airstrikes. As of Monday, the CPJ estimates that of the 57 journalists and media workers known to have died during the current war, 50 were Palestinian, four Israeli and three Lebanese.

“Meanwhile, the journalists in Gaza cannot leave, and the only outside media permitted to enter have been invited to embed with the Israeli Defense Forces and submit to strict rules controlling what they can see and share,” the organization said in a statement.

There’s also the reality that the loss of journalists translates into less information. And that lies and propaganda love a void.

You get to see what the army wants you to see and no more. Journalists are not being sufficiently protected. In many regards this war is being fought in our name and we have the moral right to know what's going on. If we can't have brave, independent journalists in Gaza, the victim will be the truth, and that's exacerbated by the death of journalists. Liars and propagandists love a void all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 07:45 AM

Very good perspective and history MOH.

Today over 70% of Israelis want Netanyahu gone.
Over 70% of Palestinians want peace and Hamas gone.

Once again those with little empathy and probable social psychopathy are the nefarious 20% causing most of the tragedy. This is my perspective and is not a provable historical fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 06:42 AM

Golda Meir didn't actually deny the existence of Palestinians. She saw that as referring to all those living in Palestine before Partition, Jewish Palestinians and Muslim or Christian Arab Palestinians, pointing out that until 1948 she'd been Palestinian herself, with a Palestinian passport.

There was a Zionist song with the line "Fight, fight, fight for Palestine" someone posted on the Cat years ago.

There'd be a lot to be said in favour of thinking in terms of Partition and Anti-Partition in the context of this conflict. If a two-state solution is the best that could be hoped for (very barely at that) in the present nightmare, that is very much a second best. In the long run an end to Partition must be the goal. It'd be far better if the term Palestine could be reserved for the whole region, with another word for the West Bank and Gaza entity.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 09:55 AM

Israeli espionage against the US is rampant for an ally.
Being an ally is not the paramount point.
It is the costs and benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 09:17 AM

There comes a time when even the most patient and supportive critical friend needs to say, stop doing that right now, because if you don't we'll stop helping you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 07:57 AM

Biden has been very patient and guarded while honoring Israel as an ally. He is in fact older than Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 07:43 AM

Interesting parallels between Golda Meir and Netanyahu. The Yom Kippur War in 1973, during which she was prime minister, effectively ended her political career, mainly because Israel was taken by surprise and was badly damaged by the attacks. That sort of echoes the severe intelligence failures that allowed the recent dreadful Hamas attack to take place. Many in Israel are hoping that Bibi's career will also end sooner rather than later, for that reason and, in his case, plenty of other reasons. She was just as dismissive of Palestinians as Netanyahu (she once said that there were no Palestinians, so her remark about "the Arabs..." was not an isolated one). Oddly, she was moved to tears by the sight of Palestinians being turned into fleeing refugees when Israel was formed, though her strong Zionism and nationalistic feelings managed to overcome that sympathy. Unlike Netanyahu, she did at least have peace in mind. Like most western countries, Israel always seems to manage to pick the wrong leaders at the wrong time.