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Origins: Hey Then Up Go We

Greum 16 Sep 20 - 10:16 AM
Noreen 16 Sep 20 - 10:31 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Sep 20 - 10:35 AM
Greum 16 Sep 20 - 10:53 AM
Joe Offer 16 Sep 20 - 12:10 PM
Joe Offer 16 Sep 20 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Greum 27 Nov 23 - 05:26 AM
Robert B. Waltz 27 Nov 23 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 27 Nov 23 - 06:47 AM
GUEST 27 Nov 23 - 07:41 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Nov 23 - 11:43 AM
Robert B. Waltz 27 Nov 23 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Greum 27 Nov 23 - 02:13 PM
Robert B. Waltz 27 Nov 23 - 02:21 PM
Steve Gardham 27 Nov 23 - 06:12 PM
Robert B. Waltz 27 Nov 23 - 07:00 PM
GUEST,Greum 28 Nov 23 - 02:58 AM
Steve Gardham 28 Nov 23 - 10:29 AM
Robert B. Waltz 28 Nov 23 - 11:05 AM
Steve Gardham 28 Nov 23 - 04:34 PM
Robert B. Waltz 28 Nov 23 - 05:59 PM
Steve Gardham 29 Nov 23 - 06:07 AM
Robert B. Waltz 29 Nov 23 - 11:17 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Nov 23 - 10:37 AM
Robert B. Waltz 30 Nov 23 - 11:43 AM
Steve Gardham 30 Nov 23 - 01:36 PM
Robert B. Waltz 30 Nov 23 - 02:20 PM
Robert B. Waltz 30 Nov 23 - 02:21 PM
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Subject: What are pipes in Hey Then Up Go We?
From: Greum
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 10:16 AM

"We’ll break their pipes and burn their copes and pull down churches too"

I know what copes are, but what are pipes?


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Subject: RE: What are pipes in Hey Then Up Go We?
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 10:31 AM

Organ pipes?


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Subject: RE: What are pipes in Hey Then Up Go We?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 10:35 AM

Multiple meanings for pipes. If you give your meaning for 'copes' it might help. Bishop's 'cope'? One meaning of 'pipes' used to be voices or throats, now more confined to 'piped up', but also applied loosely to any wind instrument, more widely to any long thin conduit. Tobacco pipes hardly seems to fit here. Pipes on a church organ? Endless possibilities.


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Subject: RE: What are pipes in Hey Then Up Go We?
From: Greum
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 10:53 AM

Yes, it could be organ pipes.

Copes (as well as lawn sleeves and rochets) referred to elsewhere in the song all refer to bishops' vestments/clothing, so I though pipes might also refer to clothing.


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Subject: add: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 12:10 PM

I don't think we have that song posted here at Mudcat. It's at https://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/english/knowthis.htm

HEY THEN UP GO WE

Know this, my brethren, heaven is clear,
And all the clouds are gone;
The righteous man shall flourish now,
Good days are coming on.
Then come, my brethren, and be glad,
And eke rejoyce with me;
Lawn sleeves and rochets shall go down,
And hey, then, up go we.

2. We'll break the windows which the whore
Of Babylon hath painted,
And when the popish saints are down
Then Barrow shall be sainted;
There's neither cross nor crucifix
Shall stand for men to see,
Rome's trash and trumpery shall go down,
And hey, then, up go we.

3. Whate'er the Popish hands have built
Our hammers shall undo;
We'll break their pipes and burn their copes,
And pull down churches too;
We'll exercise within the groves,
And teach beneath a tree;
We'll make a pulpit of a cask,
And hey, then, up go we.

4. We'll put down Universities,
Where learning is profest,
Because they practise and maintain
The language of the Beast;
We'll drive the doctors out of doors,
And all that learned be;
We'll cry all arts and learning down,
And hey, then, up go we.

5. We'll down with deans and prebends, too,
And I rejoyce to tell ye
We then shall get our fill of pig,
And capons for the belly.
We'll burn the Fathers' weighty tomes,
And make the School-men flee;
We'll down with all that smells of wit,
And hey, then, up go we.
6. If once the Antichristian crew
Be crush'd and overthrown,
We'll teach the nobles how to stoop,
And keep the gentry down:
Good manners have an ill report,
And turn to pride, we see,
We'll therefore put good manners down,
And hey, then, up go we.

7. The name of lords shall be abhorr'd,
For every man's a brother;
No reason why in Church and State
One man should rule another;
But when the change of government
Shall set our fingers free,
We'll make these wanton sisters stoop,
And hey, then, up go we.

8. What though the King and Parliament
Do not accord together,
We have more cause to be content,
This is our sunshine weather:
For if that reason should take place,
And they should once agree,
Who would be in a Roundhead's case,
For hey, then, up go we.

9. What should we do, then, in this case?
Let's put it to a venture;
If that we hold out seven years' space
We'll sue out our indenture.
A time may come to make us rue,
And time may set us free,
Except the gallows claim his due,
And hey, then, up go we.



This song, says Mr. Chappell, in his Popular Music of the Olden Time, which describes with some humour the taste of the Puritans, might pass for a Puritan song, if it were not contained in the "Shepherds' Oracles," by Francis Quarles, 1646. He was cup-bearer to Elizabeth, Queen of Bohemia, daughter of James I., and afterwards chronologer to the city of London.

He died in 1644, and his Shepherds' Oracles were a posthumous publication. It was often reprinted during the Restoration, and reproduced and slightly altered by Thomas Durfey, in his "Pills to Purge Melancholy," where the burthen is, "Hey, boys, up go we."


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Subject: RE: What are pipes in 'Hey Then Up Go We'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 12:12 PM

And the Traditional Ballad Index entry:

Hey, Then, Up Go We (Hey Boys Up Go We)

DESCRIPTION: "Know this, my brethren, Heaven is clear, and all the clouds are gone: The righteous man shall flourish now, good days are coming on. Then comes my brethren and be glad, and eke rejoice with me... And hey then up go we"
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1681 (broadside, Bodleian Vet. A3 c.29(6))
KEYWORDS: religious death nonballad
FOUND IN: Britain(England,Scotland)
REFERENCES (2 citations):
Hogg1 9, "Hey, Then, Up Go We" (6 texts, 1 tune)
Chappell/Wooldridge I, pp. 204-208, "Hey, Then Up Go We" (1 tune, partial text)

Roud #V19592
BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Vet. A3 c.29(6), "A proper new Brummigham ballad to the tune of Hey then up go we" ("Know now my brethren heaven is clear"), unknown (London), 1681
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Hey, Boys! Up Go We! (Australian)" (lyrics)
SAME TUNE:
Good Fellows all come lend an ear/The Good Fellows Consideration (BBI ZN1002)
Here is a crew of jovial Blades/The Good Fellow Frolick, Or, Kent Street Club (BBI ZN1126)
I walking near a Prison a Wall [sic]/ The Jesuits Exaltation (BBI ZN1343)
As Tom met Roger upon the Road/Tom and Rogers Contract (BBI ZN315)
A thumping lusty country lad/ Love in a Mist (BBI ZN2613)
Come listen young lovers/The Country Lass for me (BBI ZN662)
Come lovers all both great and small/ The Country Lass for me (BBI ZN669)
Come ye merry men all, of Watermans-hall/The Thames Uncas'd (BBI ZN703)
Where have you been, you drunken Dog/A Dialogue between a Baker and his Wife (BBI ZN2903)
Come, England, make a joyful Day/ England's Joy, For the Taking of the Chimney-Money (BBI ZN574)
Now now the Papists all go down/ Popery's Downfal, and The Protestants Uprising..Crowning of King William and Queen Mary (BBI ZN1951)
A Country Lad and bonny Lass/Have-at a Venture (BBI ZN726)
A frolick strange I'le to you tell/The Westminster Frolick, Or, the Cuckold of his own procuring (BBI ZN924)
A story strange I will declare/News from Crutchet- Fryers (BBI ZN2399)
Young maidens all, to you I call/Crafty Maids Invention (BBI ZN3183)
I am a Maiden in my prime/The Wanton Maidens Choice (BBI ZN1209)
You Batchelors that single are/Advice to Batchelors (BBI ZN2993)
Brave Bristol boys, where e're you be/The Brave Boys of Bristol (BBI ZN433)
Walking one Evening in a Grove/The Jesuits Lamentation (BBI ZN2723)
Since women they are grown so bad, I'le lead a single life/The Politick Countreyman (BBI ZN2364)
Fair maids draw near to me awhile/The West Country Maids Advice] (BBI ZN845)
You Dukes and Lords, and English Knights/.. Great Victory at Sea/ ..by Admiral Russel, May 1692 (BBI ZN3007)
See how the Tories drives their trade/A New Ballad, With the Definition of the Word Tory (BBI ZN2328)
The wanton Girls of Graves-end Town have now quite lost my heart/A Farewel to Graves-end (BBI ZN2724)
Now, now King James of high renown/.. Gratulation of King James the Second (BBI ZN1947)
The Lady Marquess and her gang are most in favour seen/Animadversions on the Lady Marquess (BBI ZN1594)
Come, come, my roaring ranting boys/The Merry Boys of Christmas (BBI ZN571)
What silly senseless country clown has put this wit in print/ The Citizen's Vindication Against the Downright Countryman (BBI ZN2810)
This twenty years and more that I have liv'd a single life/The Unsatisfied Lover's Lamentation (BBI ZN2584)
I am a downright Country-man, both faithful, and true/The Downright Country- Man (BBI ZN1195)
NOTES [149 words]: The title of broadside Bodleian Vet. A3 c.29(6) indicates that the "original" predates 1681 by enough that the tune was already popular at that time.
Hogg1 has one entry in his main text which "I am informed ... is one of Charles I.'s time, and that it was originally an English song, though popular in this country"; that text follows the description above and broadside Bodleian Vet. A3 c.29(6). The other five texts are in his notes. Four are fragments but the fifth, which probably deserves its own entry in the index, is complete and "plainly relates to what was termed the Fanatic Plot, in the reign of Charles II." - BS
Yet another song I can't show to have existed in tradition, but which was so popular as a source of broadsides that I think it belongs here. Hard to tell, in this case, why the tune was so popular; it's not particularly effective. Perhaps it was liturgical use. - RBW
Last updated in version 5.2
File: ChWI204

Go to the Ballad Search form
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Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
Go to the Ballad Index Bibliography or Discography

The Ballad Index Copyright 2020 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


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Subject: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: GUEST,Greum
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 05:26 AM

I have seen it claimed that the song Hey Then Up Go We appears in Francis Quarles's The Shepherds' Oracles, but I found a copy of Shepherds' Oracles online which I downloaded and I can't see the song there. Indeed, I'm not why it would be as it is not in the theme of The Shepherds' Oracles.

Does anyone know the origin of the song?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 06:37 AM

Greum wrote, Hey Then Up Go We... Does anyone know the origin of the song?

Can you quote a few more words? I know several songs with chorus lines similar to that, so that is not enough to identify the song you mean. (Though I suspect none of the ones I'm thinking of is the one you mean.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 06:47 AM

You will find your answer.

http://mudcat.org/Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=4072096

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=168567#reply

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

You have been searching for over 1,000 days ... I believe the answer is is those threads you commented in.


    Threads combined. -Joe-


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Subject: ADD: Hey Then Up Go We
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 07:41 AM

Thanks, Gargoyle. Yes that's the song.

I guess the origin is unknown.

It seems to be William Chappell in his Popular Music of the Olden Time who claims it is included in The Shepherds' Oracles. James Hogg in Jacobite Relics apparently claims it is an anti-Whig song.

These are the lyrics I have but I believe there are 12 verses.

HEY THEN, UP GO WE

Know this, my brethren, heaven is clear,
And all the clouds are gone;
The righteous man shall flourish now,
Good days are coming on.
Then come, my brethren, and be glad,
And eke rejoyce with me;
Lawn sleeves and rochets shall go down,
And hey, then, up go we.

We'll break the windows which the whore
Of Babylon hath painted,
And when the popish saints are down
Then Barrow shall be sainted;
There's neither cross nor crucifix
Shall stand for men to see,
Rome's trash and trumpery shall go down,
And hey, then, up go we.

Whate'er the Popish hands have built
Our hammers shall undo;
We'll break their pipes and burn their copes,
And pull down churches too;
We'll exercise within the groves,
And teach beneath a tree;
We'll make a pulpit of a cask,
And hey, then, up go we.

We'll put down Universities,
Where learning is profest,
Because they practise and maintain
The language of the Beast;
We'll drive the doctors out of doors,
And all that learned be;
We'll cry all arts and learning down,
And hey, then, up go we.

We'll down with deans and prebends, too,
And I rejoyce to tell ye
We then shall get our fill of pig,
And capons for the belly.
We'll burn the Fathers' weighty tomes,
And make the School-men flee;
We'll down with all that smells of wit,
And hey, then, up go we.

If once the Antichristian crew
Be crush'd and overthrown,
We'll teach the nobles how to stoop,
And keep the gentry down:
Good manners have an ill report,
And turn to pride, we see,
We'll therefore put good manners down,
And hey, then, up go we.

The name of lords shall be abhorr'd,
For every man's a brother;
No reason why in Church and State
One man should rule another;
But when the change of government
Shall set our fingers free,
We'll make these wanton sisters stoop,
And hey, then, up go we.

What though the King and Parliament
Do not accord together,
We have more cause to be content,
This is our sunshine weather:
For if that reason should take place,
And they should once agree,
Who would be in a Roundhead's case,
For hey, then, up go we.

What should we do, then, in this case?
Let's put it to a venture;
If that we hold out seven years' space
We'll sue out our indenture.
A time may come to make us rue,
And time may set us free,
Except the gallows claim his due,
And hey, then, up go we.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 11:43 AM

Simpson dates it to c1641 when Francis Quarles wrote a political song the chief distinction of which was the ending of each stanza 'And hey then up go wee'. the song was titled 'The Tryumph of the Roundheads, or ye rejoycing of the Smeets.' It's also associated with a tune of that time known as 'Cuckolds all a-row'. There are many 17th century ballads and later that designate the tune. As well as giving the score, Simpson devotes over 4 pages to the history of the tune.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 12:23 PM

It seems to be William Chappell in his Popular Music of the Olden Time who claims it is included in The Shepherds' Oracles. James Hogg in Jacobite Relics apparently claims it is an anti-Whig song.

Chappell does so state (p. 425), and his nine verse version has the same verses as those listed here. He states as other sources MSS. Ashmole 36 and 37 (the Ashmole collection is in the Bodleian Library, parts of which have been digitized, so you might be able to find scans); Loyal Songs written against the Rump Parliament, Ellis's Specimens, and Stafford Smith's Musica Antique, with a different tune.

There is also a Bodleian broadside, Bodleian, Vet. A3 c.29(6). This one hints that the tune was already known by the name "Hey Then Up We Go" before the words were written.

It's Roud's V19592. He has a couple of other listings under different titles.

Bruce Olson listed dozens of other songs to that tune, but they seem almost exclusively to have been topical and forgotten.

There were no Whigs in the 1640s, and Hogg actually had the date right; he wrote ""I am informed ... is one of Charles I.'s time, and that it was originally an English song, though popular in this country."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: GUEST,Greum
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 02:13 PM

Thanks Steve and Robert.

Steve, I'm not au fait with Simpson. What's the title of the work?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 02:21 PM

We'll have to wait for Steve to confirm this, but I think Simpson is Claude Simpson, The British Broadside Ballad and its Music.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 06:12 PM

Bob's got it. It's a magnum opus and deals with all of the tunes designated for 17th century ballads and their histories. A must for anyone looking at tune histories. The texts can easily be consulted at the Santa Barbra website 'English Ballads. They quite likely have a search engine for the tunes as well, and indeed performances of some of them. Chappell is not the most reliable source, although I think he did a good job on the first volumes of the Roxburghe Ballads.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 07:00 PM

Steve Gardham wrote: Chappell is not the most reliable source....

No, he's not, but to give him his due, he produced the first real work of its type; there wasn't much prior work to help him. In a way, he is comparable to Thomas Percy a century before: He gathered up stuff, and sometimes altered it (by converting the modal tunes to strict Ionian and Aeolian). Both Percy and Chappell messed up their sources. On the other hand, Chappell didn't hide and even destroy his sources (as Percy did), and Chappell at least made a relatively consistent sort of modifications. Both had later authors come along to produce corrected copies (Percy by Wheatley and Chappell by Wooldridge), but Wooldridge had a much easier job than Wheatley.

I guess the way I would put it is, I think Percy and Chappell are rather comparable -- but Chappell was doing the best he could and Percy was a hack who, although he got a lot of people interested in old songs, really fouled the waters.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: GUEST,Greum
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 02:58 AM

Thanks, guys

I found a copy of the work at https://comelivewithmeballad.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/broadside-music.pdf


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 10:29 AM

Bob, can you let me have the details on the Wooldridge work, please? My copy of Chappell is the 16 vol paper copies.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 11:05 AM

Steve Gardham wrote: Bob, can you let me have the details on the Wooldridge work, please? My copy of Chappell is the 16 vol paper copies.

It still lists Chappell as the primary author:

Old English Popular Music
by
William Chapell, F. S. A.

A New Edition
with a preface and notes, and the earlier examples entirely revised by
H. Ellis Wooldridge

Two Volumes

LONDON:
Chappell & Co and MacMillan & Co

NEW YORK:
Novello, Ewer & Co
(both volumes) 1893

I have the 1893 edition. It's been reprinted at least once since, but it never became popular enough to have a Dover edition, e.g. So it's a lot rarer than editions of the original.

I wouldn't rush out to get it. It is not, unfortunately, a replacement for the original Chappell -- Wooldridge dropped at least half the text, and almost all the lyrics. What he did was restore the transcriptions of the melodies to their state before Chappell revised them (e.g. letting the Dorian tunes be Dorian, and the natural minors be natural), plus he made the information about his sources a little more explicit. If you don't have original Chappell, then Chappell/Wooldridge is basically useless (because it has no texts and drops much of the history), and if you are working more with the texts than the tunes, it doesn't add much to your knowledge.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 04:34 PM

Thanks, Bob
I did have Chappell's personal copy of Vol 1 of the 2 but I gave it to SteveR, along with a load of personal notes from his daughter after he died. Plus some correspondence from Ebsworth on one of the ballads.

Absolutely, the tunes aren't a lot of use to me. William must have died shortly after this was published.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 05:59 PM

Steve Gardham wrote: William must have died shortly after this was published.

Chappell was dead before Wooldridge published (Wikipedia says he died in 1888). I assume he's still listed as the author because he was responsible for the songs which were included, and some of the text was still his. And because it would help sell the book.

Really, someone should have produced a third edition with Chappell's text (corrected where possible) and Wooldridge's correct tunes and additional source information. But there probably wasn't enough demand to make it worth it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Nov 23 - 06:07 AM

Ha! I was looking at the wrong William C who died in the 90s. Wikipedia says he died in his London residence in 1888, but all the info I have says that he lived in Edinburgh and his family and funeral were there. The personal copy I had had been thrown out by Edinburgh Uni Library. I picked it up in Edinburgh for a tenner along with all the other stuff from his daughter inside the book.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 29 Nov 23 - 11:17 AM

Steve Gardham wrote: Ha! I was looking at the wrong William C who died in the 90s. Wikipedia says he died in his London residence in 1888, but all the info I have says that he lived in Edinburgh and his family and funeral were there. The personal copy I had had been thrown out by Edinburgh Uni Library. I picked it up in Edinburgh for a tenner along with all the other stuff from his daughter inside the book.

Sounds like we should trust you over Wikipedia. :-) Doesn't surprise me much.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 10:37 AM

Well, no reason why he shouldn't have died in London and his funeral in Edinburgh.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 11:43 AM

Steve Gardham wrote: Well, no reason why he shouldn't have died in London and his funeral in Edinburgh.

True, but it's more fun to remind people not to trust Wikipedia. :-) It's convenient, but that doesn't make it reliable!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 01:36 PM

Whilst you are absolutely correct, Bob, I use it all the time for simple stuff like dates of battles, biog stuff, and I occasionally donate as generally they do a great job.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 02:20 PM

Steve Gardham wrote: Whilst you are absolutely correct, Bob, I use it all the time for simple stuff like dates of battles, biog stuff....

I agree that it is incredibly handy. I am not trying to trash Wikipedia. It's even cited more than 150 times in the Ballad Index. But if I need something to be accurate, I won't use it. Or I will say something like "For a quick overview, see the Wikipedia entry for...." The problem with being a person whose whole life is spent down rabbit holes is that I keep coming across entries that, at minimum, give wrong implications. Were it easier to become an editor, I'd have yet another big project on my hands. :-)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Hey Then Up Go We
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 02:21 PM

I should add that, if we really want to go on about Wikipedia's merits, we should probably take it somewhere else. You know where to reach me. :-)


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