Folklore: Revival Songs UK

Subject: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,North Country Primitive
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 10:21 AM

Hi folks. I’ve been thinking about original songs, composed ‘in the style of’ traditional songs during the height of the folk revival, that became so popular they entered the repertoire of performers or became staples of floor singers or at singarounds. I’m thinking of things like Dave Goulder’s January Man, or Keith Marsden’s Bring us a Barrel, or Dick Gaughan’s adaptation of James Hogg’s Both Sides the Tweed, or Ewan McColl’s The Shoals of Herring. What others can you think of?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 10:30 AM

MacColl's Thirty-foot Trailer, Manchester Rambler. Don't know whether Bert's rehashes would qualify.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 11:50 AM

This could be a very, very long thread! I'll offer "Ring of Iron" by the great Graeme Miles.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,North Country Primitive
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 12:06 PM

“This could be a very, very long thread!” I do hope so, Tom! :-)

I’m going to admit I don’t think I know Ring of Iron, so I’m now off to investigate! But that’s part of my thinking with this thread - to introduce people to songs they don’t know and remind them of songs they may have forgotten.

Those Ewan McColl songs are a good shout Steve. I too don’t know whether Bertification counts as writing new songs…

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 12:35 PM

Hamish Henderson's "Freedom Come All Ye"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 01:18 PM

Does John Connolly’s ‘Fiddler’s Green’ qualify? Or John’s and Bill Meek’s ‘The Grimsby Lads’, ‘A Lumper’s Life’, ‘Byard’s Leap’, et al?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,North Country Primitive
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 01:30 PM

If people are singing them, or were singing them, yes! I’m thinking about songs in the folk idiom or influenced by the old songs, that have transcended the original writers and writers kind of become folk club and singaround common property, for want of a better way of putting it!

Fiddlers Green definitely fits the bill. The others I don’t know (yet!) but if people are singing them, bring it on!

If this thread carries on, I’ll put together a playlist of recommendations.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 01:34 PM

Bw, John's 'Fiddler's Green' is a deffo.

NCP 'Bertification'! Absolutely brilliant! Did you coin that word or is it well-used?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,North Country Primitive
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 01:44 PM

I’d love to say I came up with Bertification, Steve, but I think I must have stolen it from somewhere…

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie More
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 06:46 AM

Karine Polwart's "Follow The Heron" :
https://youtu.be/CDjfGEcRL7Y?si=PV8aPHpK8s47FnGT

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 07:57 AM

"Harry the Hawker" - Martin Graebe

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 09:13 AM

Virtually every song written by Dave Goulder. The January Man is the best known but to my mind there are many that are better. I'll just mention the first four that come to mind -
"A Boy In Winter"
"Sandwood Down To Kyle"
"The Long and Lonely Winter"
"A Most Unpleasant Way"
"Far Away Tom"
"The Carpenter and the Sexton".
Yes, I know, byt there wasn't one that could be left out.
Then there are all the brilliant songs by Leon Rosselsom and Pete Morton.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 09:17 AM

Hamish Henderson's "Freedom Come All Ye" 

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: BillE
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 02:45 PM

Don't forget Cyril Tawney.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,North Country Primitive
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 04:39 PM

That’s two recommendations for Hamish Henderson now!

I don’t know Dave Goulder’s other songs, Vic. I’ll check them out.

Which Cyril Tawney songs are you thinking of, Bill? I’ve heard Sally Free & Easy and On a Monday Morning sing at singarounds.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie More
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 04:47 PM

Andy M. Stewart's "Rambling Rover" :

https://youtu.be/01AWt3tkC70?si=9mk7LmNBGCWSIZri

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie More
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 04:51 PM

Ralph McTell's : "Clare To Here" :

https://youtu.be/HM-Gn6Rwzp8?si=POBfI5q8ewv2NGOY

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 05:12 PM

Which revival and what is folk?


I'll get some popcorn...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 05:29 PM

Written a bit earlier than the period mentioned, but "On Raglan Road".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 05:52 PM

I think we have had songs ranging from 1932 to 2005 mentioned up to now. Raglan Road is from 1971 based on a much earlier poem and tune. Hence my earlier questions!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 06:55 PM

Based on the examples cited in the original post, I took "revival" to mean the postwar, mid-20th century one, which is why I asserted that "On Raglan Road" is earlier, based on the date of its authorship (lyrically in any case). But perhaps revival is a perpetual process and we would do ourselves well to free ourselves from the shackles of a linear notion of time!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 03:15 AM

Yes, looks that way, but as is often the case with Mudcat threads it rapidly widened that scope with Manchester Rambler and Follow the Heron being from well outside that scope!

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying songs do or do not fall in or out of any category. In fact I love your phrase about the linear motion of time :-) Maybe we should also free ourselves from the shackles of categorisation as well but we will then end up with the usual tirades about what is and isn't folk :-(

One of the points that always comes up of course is that well known purveyor of songs in the traditional style who influenced the UK folk revival more than anyone else...





Bob Dylan

:-D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,North Country Primitive
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 05:12 AM

I was largely thinking about the 50s - 70s when I asked the question, but it’s not set in stone. Earlier or later songs that fit the bill equally welcome!

¡Hola! Señor Gnome? How are you? Cheers, Nigel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 08:21 AM

Reet gradely thanks Nigel. And thanks for the clarification

How are you and do I know you from here or from a previous life? :-)

Anywho...

Lots of Fairport (and spin off) stuff now spring to mind. Late 70's albums from Jethro Tull. Mary Hopkin. Simon and Garfunkle (OK, not UK but very influential in folk clubs) Pentangle. Strawbs. Lindisfarne. Etc, etc, etc!

As someone said earlier, could be a very long thread :-D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 10:13 AM

Raglan Road is from 1971 based on a much earlier poem and tune" quote
An earlier SONG and tune.
it is debatable whether Dylan influenced the folk revival more than lonnie donegan or bert lloyd or ewan maccoll, in my opinion he influenced it less than any of those three

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 10:48 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ghcM_m2XQ

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 10:50 AM

At my college folk club- mid 60s- Lord of the Dance. Kumbaya and OH Sir Jasper do not touch me were regulars, no wonder I went off to find the Irish music in Fulham & other places...

Mind you, there was also 'Shoals of Herring' (which I thought for some time was the Shores of Erin! Also 'I wish I was back in Liverpool...

Paul Simon was a regular there but can't remember what he sang

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 10:53 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5xZQVkhak written by dominc williams tommys lot

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 11:32 AM

Richard Thompson’s ‘The Old Changing Way’ is popular in song sessions. John K’s ‘Dust to Dust/Ashes to Ashes’…

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 12:01 PM

…Bill Caddick, ‘John of Dreams’. Graham Pratt, ‘Little Black Fox’ I’d certainly agree with’Ring of Iron’, great song, but whilst in that part of England how about ‘Big River’ by Jimmy Nail ?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 12:29 PM

Big River is great but maybe a bit later than the revival being discussed.

Who wrote it BTW? Save me asking Mr Google :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 01:28 PM

I'm going to add a few more then shut up - Ee Aye Aa Cud Hew ( Ed Pickford) Farewell To The Monty (Johnny Handle) The Ballad of Old Seth Davey (Glyn Hughes) The Massacre of Glencoe (Jim McLean) and The Ellen Vannin Tragedy (Hughie Jones)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 23 - 04:48 PM

”Who wrote it BTW?”

Jimmy Nail

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 03:50 AM

Ralph McTell, a number of his songs

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 23 - 12:07 PM

Well I never! Thanks BWM

Dick - I was thinking of you this morning when I ate my smnashed avacado on toast :-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 03:43 AM

were you on ilkley moor bah tat?

Wheear 'ast tha bin sin' ah saw thee, ah saw
thee?
On Ilkla Mooar baht 'at
Wheear 'ast tha bin sin' ah saw thee, ah saw
thee?
Wheear 'ast tha bin sin' ah saw thee?
On Ilkla Mooar baht 'at
On Ilkla Mooar baht 'at
On Ilkla Mooar baht 'at
Tha's been a cooartin' Mary Jane
Tha's bahn' to catch thy deeath o` cowd
Then us'll ha' to bury thee
Then t'worms'll come an` eyt thee up
Then t'ducks'll come an` eyt up t'worms
Then us'll go an` eyt up t'ducks
Then us'll all ha' etten thee
That's wheear we get us ooan back

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 07:34 AM

There was a bar in Ilkley called Bar Tat! Dunno if it is still there

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:32 PM

Ilkla Moor much earlier, 1920s I believe, and not really part of folk revival, more a hikers'/ramblers' song.

Apart from the 2 mentioned Cyril's 'Haul away the Dyso' 'The Oggy Man', 'Grey Funnel Line', 'On a Monday Morning' and ;'Sammy's Bar' well sung.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 23 - 02:49 PM

How about "Day trip to Bangor"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 04:08 AM

It is tempting to list songs (from the relevant, vaguely defined, period) that are among one's favourites, but the OP request was for songs that became widely sung. Some in fact have been sung far too often, to the point that we became heartily sick of them, but let's not mention specific examples of those.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,North Country Primitive
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 04:39 AM

Hi Richard - you hit the mail on the head. I was partly wondering why - in the largely traditional singarounds I’ve attended - certain non-traditional songs ‘make the grade’ and I wondered what others were regularly hauled out for a mauling in clubs and sessions around the country. What is it about them that is different to all the hundreds of other composed ‘folk songs’ that could have been chosen? I’m not really interested in the songs someone heard or performed once, but songs that have entered the folk club canon. Hence ‘Bring us a Barrel’ or ‘January Man’ as examples. I’m even (especially!) happy to add unmentionables that have been sung all too often to the list!

NB I suggested songs from the 1950s -1970s as a loose timeline of the heyday of British folk clubs, but yes, it is fairly vague and arbitrary!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 04:46 AM

Wild Mountain Thyme fits in nicely then.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 04:50 AM

and 'Wor Geordie's lost his penker' often sung by southern singers with a lengthy explanation beforehand

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GerryM
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 06:59 AM

Steve Gardham, "Haul Away the Dyso" is another name for "Sammy's Bar", no?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 10:55 AM

Re: Ilkla Mooar baht 'at
I have heard that tune used for While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks in Yorkshire and indeed the tune has that old church anthem structure. But which words did it carry first; the hatlessness or the Glad Tidings?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 11:42 AM

The first published version of the words appeared in 1916, when it was described as "a dialect song which, for at least two generations past, has been sung in all parts of the West Riding of Yorkshire".[6] Arnold Kellett judged that the song "could well have originated in the early years of the second half of the [19th] century, and not as late as 1877"Tune
It is sung to the Methodist hymn tune "Cranbrook" (composed by Canterbury-based shoemaker Thomas Clark in 1805); this was published by him in 1805 in "A Sett of Psalm & Hymn Tunes with some Select Pieces and an Anthem", setting the words of Philip Doddridge's "Grace! 'Tis a Charming Sound".[8] It was later used as a tune for "While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks By Night"), but the Ilkla Moor song became so popular that the origin of the music as a hymn tune has been almost forgotten in the United Kingdom.[9] quote wiki

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 01:16 PM

Many thanks to wikipedia!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GerryM
Date: 05 Dec 23 - 04:18 PM

Just yesterday, someone sang While Shepherds Watched to the tune of Ilkla Moor / Cranbrook at the Mudcat Zoom singaround. I think the general reaction was one of surprise that anyone could, or would, do that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Dec 23 - 04:01 AM

Ilkla Moor is more of a folk song, than fifty percent of that which is sung in folk clubs at the present moment, imo.
Gerry M, its very common down Mexborough way.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Dec 23 - 04:23 AM

South of the border, down Mexborough way,
That's where I fell in love when the stars above came out to play,
And now as I wander, my thoughts ever stray,
South of the border, down Mexborogh way!

She was a picture in Nottingham lace,
Just for a tender while I kissed the smile upon her face,
in her"Fiesta" and we were so gay,
South of the border, down Mexborough way!

Then she sighed as she ate a"Bañana"
Never dreamin' that i was crying

And she Sighed as saw my lovely cabana"
For my cabana blew away!

South of the border, I rode back one day,
There in a veil of white by candle-light she knelt to pray,
The mission bells told me that I mustn't stay,
South of the border, down Mexborough way!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 23 - 05:12 AM

Is that another one of the ‘Chuck Berry’ variations RJM ?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 23 - 01:07 PM

What gives you that opinion, Dick? Not disputing what you say just interested to know what the 50% of songs that are less 'folky' than Ilkla Moor are! Can you give us a rundown of what you are hearing one night at a typical folk club nowadays?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 23 - 03:20 PM

Jolene, Dont cry no Tears, P

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Dec 23 - 03:27 PM

well here are a few, that i think are not folk songs
Jolene, Dont cry no tears, Peggy Sue,Sailing . The positive is that people are trying to make their own entertainment

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 03:31 AM

Doesn't sound like 50% of a night but I know what you mean. Some folk (pun intended) do push the boundaries!

Incidentally though, I would class most of Dolly Parton's stuff, including Jolene, as Country and be happy with that in a Folk club but that's a discussion for elsewhere!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 11:35 AM

There used to be a programme on Radio One called Country Meets Folk, which got dubbed Country Eats Folk by some people, presumably because it did.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 11:56 AM

Wally Whiton if I remember rightly!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 01:18 PM

WALLY WHYTON

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 04:45 PM

Anything by Graeme Miles.

Ray Hearne.

Recently Alec Thompson - "A Bright New Year"

Some of Mike Waterson (Jack Frost)

Some of Lal Waterson (Scarecrow, Some Old Salty)

Anything by Keith Morsden.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 06:14 PM

Sorry Dick. I had forgotten that you were a master of spelling

I'm sure that your earlier post "written by dominc williams tommys lot" was a mere slip of the keyboard. Which is why I didn't mention it :-D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Hornpipe
Date: 07 Dec 23 - 10:06 PM

Do Irish and Scottish songs count? How about:

Archie Fisher: “Lindsay the Fiddler,” “Men of Worth”

Tommy Makem: “Four Green Fields,” “Farewell to Carlingford,” “Bold O’Donahue”

Stan Rogers: “Barratt’s Privateers”

Christy Moore: “The Cliffs of Dooneen”

Andy Irvine: “The West Coast of Clare”

Thom Moore: “Cavan Girl,” “Carolina Rua”

Dominic Behan: “The Patriot Game,” “Come Out Ye Black and Tans”

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GerryM
Date: 08 Dec 23 - 12:39 AM

Hornpipe, I don't think there's anything Irish or Scottish about Barrett's Privateers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 23 - 05:31 AM

McStan O’Rogers

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 04:50 AM

Caledonia seems to be widely sung,likewise John of Dreams

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 05:54 AM

popular on Tyneside in the 60s was a song by Eddie McIntryre, the Silver Fox of Jarrow.
    He was part of the the Western Trio or the Three Eddies (only two of the were Eddies, the other was Mattie).   They kept the name even after Mattie left....

- 'Does your Brown Ale lose its flavour in the bedpan overnight'

tune should be obvious

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Hornpipe
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 06:08 AM

GerryM, you’re right, of course! It’s Stan Rogers, although I did first heard it at a session in Inverness!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 09:45 AM

Why dont you sing like Cliff Pilchard?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 11:57 AM

Why dont you sing like Cliff, was written by Ed Pickford and sung by Big Jim, aka Jim Bainbridge
Ron Angel wrote some good songs too, example, Chemical Worker’s Song

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 01:48 PM

Owen Hand's "My Donal" is a belter.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 23 - 05:58 PM

What a fascinating idea. Looking positively at the many strands of creativity to emerge from our folk clubs and the revival generally.

Those of us around in 60's and 70's understood it was a stylistic choice - not forced on us because we had lived in an isolated village because it was the only music we knew of, but something we recognised and valued as an aid to creativity or discarded.

It did seem at one time that every week a new treasure would emerge - Paul Downes was making his first albums with Steve Knightley's first songs on,   Martin Graebe was coming up with 'Honiton Lace' , Bill Caddick came up with 'The Writing of Tiperary', Alan Bell's amazing songs, Tony Capstick was going round singing John Connolly's The Punch and Judy Man, and of course The Band Plated Waltzing Matilda was being played on the John Peel radio show. I know that i've left half a hundred other names out.

We knew that in some period earlier in the 20th century someone had written The Ladies go Dancing at Whitsun, and MacColl had had this great purple patch in the 1950's. But it did seem to us that suddenly there was this sudden upsurge in talent.

Many of though didn't feel homespun, rural or interested in writing about the past. I think we looked towards Jansch, Dylan, Jeremy Taylor, and Tom Robinson - we felt like urbane city dwellers who didn't want a 'celtic twilight' ttone in our compositions. I always felt if we don't leave footprints in the sands of time - no one will know we existed.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 03:37 AM

I was at school with Tom Robinson, I certainly did not look to him for inspiration,
my influences were missippi john hurt,Harry Cox.MacColl Because he steered us towards the music of the geographical British isles
I find the thought of Tom Robinson, quite funny.I remember him at that time as a spotty faced adolescent playing pop music with a drummer called Turvey, typical adolescent middle of the road pop .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 06:59 AM

I d rather have written this Tom Robinson one than most of what the traddies cream their jeans over. It sounds more like the English language than the 'poetic' muse that is always trying to draw attention to the language.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeviOJZ_REc

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 07:15 AM

Interesting post by Al which finishes I always felt if we don't leave footprints in the sands of time - no one will know we existed.
My reaction to what he has said is that some songs are transitory and some of those are meant to be; others have a timeless quality. In the days before recorded sound, it was only the timeless ones that survived. Marxists would say that they were taking up the "the folk".
Songs like Tom Paxton's Lyndon Johnson Told the Nation, hugely popular at the time have little relevance in this age, but when I sing a Manchester broadside song from the 1840s Old England, What Have You Come To? though in it the references are from 180 years ago, the commonality with our current political and economic woes are obvious and I can see that audiences relate to the hardship and inequality that the song portrays.
Of course, since the days or recorded sound all songs survive in some obscure places.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 07:21 AM

Examples of folk revival songs that have timeless quality might be in likes of "The January Man", "Sally Free and Easy" and "Dirty Old Town".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 08:14 AM

Regarding writing 'heritage' songs. Much of the people's heritage tends to disappear without trace, and if the songwriters don't record it who will?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 11:02 AM

Lyndon Johnson told the nation
Have no fear of escalation

I wonder if the people living under the rule of the Taliban can see a relevance. It was precisely that fear that won Trump the Presidency.
I think maybe what old England has come to is a need to feel comfortable with folksong - like an old jumper.

To be honest, why not? Most of us are old, battered by life and seen better days.
The days when the nightingale singing a love song down in the valley below was a gynaecological description are long gone.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 01:51 PM

Examples of folk revival songs that have timeless quality,John of Dreams
"The days when the nightingale singing a love song down in the valley below was a gynaecological description are long gone"
it still appeals to me, as does the wonderful traditional song
The Birds in the Spring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhCVXhx941M

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 02:00 PM

why does Tom Robinson sing in an accent that is not his own on that track, I assume he is the singer who sounds rather like Billy Bragg on that track
When i knew him he was in Saffron Walden and spoke in a
MIDDLE CLASS Saffron Walden accent

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Dec 23 - 09:59 PM

The point is you aren't timeless.
as for Tom singing in a false accent. Some songs require it.
Apparently when Tim hart retired to the Canary Islands - they asked him what part of England do they sing with a voice like you sing in.
The answer is of course, you sing like that inthe traddie middle class folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Dec 23 - 02:50 AM

I sing in my own accent.I disagree with all your above comments, so lets leave it

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Dec 23 - 05:22 AM

thirty foot trailer, my old man,moving on song,

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 11 Dec 23 - 12:43 PM

Ar howay man- aa aalwis sing in me own accent, even in Ireland, having survived the 'traddie folk clubs'- if you've any sense, you get to know what is just TOO Irish or Scottish to tackle.

but that's another thread....    for this one- 'Johnnie Lad'   'Both Sides Now'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 23 - 02:15 PM

Lots of Vin Garbutt's stuff. But don't try his accent :-D

What songs need a fake accent, Al?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Dec 23 - 08:05 PM

Mario Lanza, complete phoney!
Ewan MacColl....poor chap couldn't avoid it being a professional actor - simply couldn't stop himself.
Sid and Doris Bonkers - "Couldn't do an authentic Neasden accent to save their lives" reported ashen faced Ron Knee.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 03:13 AM

Yebbut what songs actually NEED a fake accent?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie More
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 04:03 AM

Quite a few by Ian Campbell, but especially this :

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,Lang Johnnie More
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 04:09 AM

Don't know what happened there - try again :
"The Old Man's Tale" - sung here by Ewan MacLennan
https://youtu.be/HEPrgP7b-Sk?si=gMAg8IOY1EAxKkHw

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 10:36 AM

"The Old Man's Tale" - sung here by Ewan MacLennan
Ian put his words to the tune of an old bothy ballad Nicky Tams written and published by George S. Morris. Among the many pre-folk revival singers who sang it was Ian's dad, Dave Campbell. He recorded it in 1965 on the Campbell Family’s Topic album The Singing Campbells.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Dec 23 - 10:29 PM

AS King Lear said "Reason not the need."

Many singers feel the need, and its a free world - despite those who would take our freedoms.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 03:19 AM

Many singers also feel it is not needed, they feel that singing in your own accent is the accent you are most comfortable with, and being comfortable with your singing, allows you to get in to the song, feeling comfortable with the song enables the singer to express themselves through the words AND COMMUNICATE BETTER WITH THE AUDIENCE

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 03:52 AM

So rather than "Some songs require it.", which is what you said, it is some singers that need to put on a fake accent. Fair enough, I can understand that and, as you say, it is their choice. Don't get bogged down by that though as this thread is about "Folklore: Revival Songs UK", not singers pretending to be someone else!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 06:19 AM

I think that one song which comes across best with a fake accent - unless you happen to have the correct accent to begin with - is 'That's Amore'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 06:57 AM

Ken Barton`s "Men of Kent".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 12:08 PM

well yes its possible to paint every picture just using the color red. but the existence of other colours....well they appeal to some artists.
if you lack the ability or imagination to use them, fair enough.

but its a bit like a cook who can only cook sausages , so when he cooks christmas pudding, it has to look like a sausage.

if that's what works for you, stick to it. but don't make rules for the rest of us. the idea that one has to sing a bach recicative, schuberts liede, elvis presley's all shook up and the galway shawl in ths same voice that was inflicted on you from birth doesn't make much sense to most people - or thankfully most singers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 01:07 PM

Big Al Whittle
this thread is about "Folklore: Revival Songs UK

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 04:43 PM

You brought the subject of accents into the thread, Dick.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 05:44 PM

Well of course that's an interesting point. Maybe there was atime when all that was ever sung in English folk clubs was English folksongs, delivered in cod rural/Long John Silver/ Walter Gabrielese.

But by the the time I showed up in the early sixties - the revival encompassed all sorts of stuff.

I know people get very uppity defending their ptch of this demi paradise, this sceptered isle of song - but cosider the lillies of the field.
You only have to listen to the George Formby fans at Blackpool to hear how many people in this country want to sing like a 1930's man from Wigan. And when someone gets so tangled up in uke technique that they neglect the to do the Lancashire accent - there is diminishment.

Perhaps you disagree. That's your right. But surely I've got a right to my opinion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 23 - 07:08 PM

I think that there are probably more songs than there are accents, Al, so your analogy about only using one colour is not really valid. And just who is making rules? I don't recall anyone on here doing so.

As for people who sing in their own accents not having any ability or imagination, are you seriously suggesting that to be a true artist you have to pretend that you are someone else? Surely those who are able to interpret any song in their own style deserve some credit.

FWIW I think your faux American accent on St Peter and John Dillinger works well but I have no idea if it is accurate. Or Why St. Peter needed it as well :-)

If it floats your boat, fine. But why suggest that people who don't indulge in playacting are somehow inferior?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:16 AM

Backwoodsman, Tom Robinson is not part of the folk revival, he was mentioned by Al Whittle, i asked about his false accent.
Tom Robinson is not connected with the uk folk revival.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:48 AM

That’s what I said. YOU - nobody else - brought the subject of fake accents into the thread. The thread is about Folk Revival songs, not singers’ accents, no matter whether real or fake. You can’t criticise Al for thread-drift when you indulged in thread-drift yourself. Do try to keep up.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:49 AM

100!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:50 AM

Damn you BWM :-D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 04:13 AM

Might I venture 'The Old Songs' - words, Bob Copper, tune, Peter Bellamy as being a suitable candidate...?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 04:13 AM

Icarus Anne lister, Farewell to The Gold, Paul Metsers

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 05:58 AM

”Damn you BWM :-D”

Sincere apologies Dave, it was purely accidental - I hadn’t even realised! :-D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 05:59 AM

‘The Jeannie C’, Stan Rogers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 07:49 AM

oh well if you're to bring in my American accent....its not like anybody ever listened in great numbers. long ago, i wrote that off as my private insanity.

my various accents, i tend to think of as my various accents as a neurotic alternative to being an ordinary human being.around. if someone in future if someone wants to sing

anyway, i'm 75 next month - the singing is all over now. a sort of experiment that didn't work out. i just think its time we stopped bossing each other about. lots of people aee moved to sing by listening to the yanks - let them get on with it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 08:08 AM

There you go again, Al. No-one is bossing anyone about as far as I can see. It is a good natured discussion on UK Folk revival songs that has, as happens in these threads, gone off at a tangent. No-one has laid any laws down. No-one has said what must or must not be done. You are being defensive for no apparant reason.

Mind you, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they are not out to get you...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 08:15 AM

Amen, Al.

When I’m singing, my ‘accent’ varies with what it is I’m singing. In the pop/soul/R&R bands I was performing in up until the early-Noughties, I sang in what I call a ‘mid-Atlantic’ accent, a kind of almost-American twang because, for that kind of music it sounds ‘right’ - try singing ‘Mustang Sally’ or ‘Great Balls of Fire’ in a Lincolnshire accent, it’s sounds nothing short of ridiculous! When I sing contemporary, singer-songwriter material, including songs by British writers or ones I’ve had a hand in writing myself (admittedly only a few of the latter!), I sing in my natural Lincolnshire accent, because it sounds right.

And I’m 76 now, my gigging days are pretty much over, and my performing is limited to local ‘Folk and Acoustic Music Clubs’, where singing accents are as varied as the genres of songs being sung, and nobody gets po-faced or sucks lemons when individuals affect ‘Murrican, Oirish, or any other flavour of accent when they sing. ‘Live and let live’ is very much the order of the day, and long may it last.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 09:48 AM

I sing in the uk folk revival,and in ireland, i still do gigs in uk and ireland;
i am 72 and i sing in my own accent and my gigging days are not over.
only last week a person in ireland complimented me on my voice, BEGRUDGERS AMONGST YOU MAKE WHAT YOU LIKE OF ITHAT

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 10:09 AM

well good for you RJM.
I don't think either BWM or myself were ever cutting edge like that. Forgive me BWM, if I sell you short.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,Tom Patterson
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 10:33 AM

I know I said I'd shut up but I think "Man of The Earth" written in the70s by Bernie Parry is worth a mention. I've heard it many times in singarounds.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 11:06 AM

Yes, Man of the Earth is a good song

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 11:36 AM

There are so many contemporary folk songs from the 60s and 70s that became folk club favourites. There were also some mainstream songs that made the transition. I am thinking in particular of "Blackbird" by the Beatles which I heard a lot in folk clubs and it seems to have found a life of its own in that environment. Is that the folk process? :-D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 12:15 PM

RJM - ”I sing in the uk folk revival,and in ireland, i still do gigs in uk and ireland;
i am 72 and i sing in my own accent and my gigging days are not over.
only last week a person in ireland complimented me on my voice, BEGRUDGERS AMONGST YOU MAKE WHAT YOU LIKE OF ITHAT”

Big Al - ”well good for you RJM.
I don't think either BWM or myself were ever cutting edge like that. Forgive me BWM, if I sell you short.”

Others here may see music and it’s public performance as a competition - I don’t. I’m a believer in the words of Cervantes/Christopher Marlowe/John Donne/whoever - “Comparisons are odious”. In the case of comparing one’s own talent with that of fellow performers, I regard it as insulting and contemptible, and I regard myself as a better person than that.

Playing and singing in public is something I’ve done since I was 15, not full time pro - I was busy building a successful career in industry - but semi-pro, and I’m still doing it for fun at Folk & Acoustic clubs, O-Ms, and sessions. I made my decision to leave the band and stop gigging this time last year because, at 75 and with certain health issues, I don’t believe I’m able to perform at a level I’m happy with.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 01:29 PM

I do not see anything as a competition.
I mentioned a compliment i received. neither have i claimed to be cutting edge, but here are some more facts, I earned my living playing music for over 40 years
I also run a music session every week for which i do not receive monetary payment., but i do it for fun
for eleven years i have also run a Festival, for which i do not receive payment.
these are not part of a competition but just background information about who i am and what i have done and what i do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 01:50 PM

I think Cat Stevens deserves a mention too.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 02:11 PM

The World Turned Upside down. l Rosselson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOCMmdq5O_U

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 02:36 PM

"I think Cat Stevens deserves a mention too."

I wholeheartedly agree Dave.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:13 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB3C1AU2Q3k Cat stevens songs were heard in the seventies, but after his retirement in 1980 I heard them rarely in forty years, even the songs of the Singing Postman were more frequently sung and i was playing in lots of different venues in the 80 and nineties and noughties

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:16 PM

f

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:18 PM

Frank Crumit
a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgVlRvl2DI0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgVlRvl2DI0

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:18 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgVlRvl2DI0

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:35 PM

I used to sing This song by Frank Crumit at all of my gigs, this one particularly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg3YMTW391Q

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 14 Dec 23 - 03:48 PM

the new mexborough concertina quartet, we played this a lot in folk clubs and festivals, a song i wrote for the band to play when we were gigging
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4BAGxERaU

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 02:59 AM

Two groups of people were of particular importance to the vibrance of the uk folk club revival, the organisers, and the professional perfomers who gave up their time to travel the length and breadth of the uks and who were the backbone of the folk club revival
Professional performers like Alex Campbell and Ewan MacColl whose presentation and audience skills filled folk clubs.
WITHOUT THE EFFORTS OF THE ORGANISERS AND THE PROFESSIONALS WHO MADE THEMSELVES AVAILABLE ON A NATIONAL BASIS....there would not have been the same volume of clubs available for semi pro performers and amateur floor singers.
I have been and still am an organiser and a singer available on professional basis, by that i mean available nationally on a full time basis
in my opinion The importance of the organisers and the full time singer, is on occasions forgotten, without those two groups the uk folk club revival would not have been as strong or as widespread as it was

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 07:36 AM

You might add the audience who also had a modest role to play.
In fact it was their absence and the indifference of the the performers ( the ones who knew which voice to sing in and what was real folk music) and the organisers to them that de-bollocked the whole enterprise.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 07:45 AM

Fair point Al.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 09:00 AM

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me !!!!!!!!!

Meeeeeeeeeeeee!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 09:33 AM

Now there’s an admission…

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 11:29 AM

Mods can you please delete the below impersonation
Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 09:00 AM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 11:52 AM

What has "de-bollocked the whole enterprise."
1 Lack of available venues, due to pub licensing changes from tenants to managers.
2.Disappearance of organisers as they have got older., or have died.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 02:15 PM

Change in tastes and expectations too, Dick.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Revival Songs UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Dec 23 - 02:28 PM

Thread closed. Too much nastiness. Grow up, boys.