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BS: The Indian Caste System

The Sandman 05 Feb 24 - 05:21 PM
Donuel 08 Feb 24 - 06:57 AM
Rapparee 08 Feb 24 - 05:52 PM
Donuel 09 Feb 24 - 06:27 AM
robomatic 09 Feb 24 - 02:39 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Feb 24 - 02:46 PM
robomatic 09 Feb 24 - 04:27 PM
Donuel 09 Feb 24 - 06:02 PM
The Sandman 12 Feb 24 - 06:39 PM
The Sandman 12 Feb 24 - 09:32 PM
Gibb Sahib 13 Feb 24 - 05:18 AM
The Sandman 13 Feb 24 - 12:15 PM
Gibb Sahib 13 Feb 24 - 11:26 PM
Donuel 14 Feb 24 - 08:17 AM
Raggytash 14 Feb 24 - 10:18 AM
Stilly River Sage 14 Feb 24 - 10:43 AM
MaJoC the Filk 14 Feb 24 - 11:47 AM
MaJoC the Filk 14 Feb 24 - 11:56 AM
The Sandman 14 Feb 24 - 01:23 PM
robomatic 14 Feb 24 - 06:39 PM
The Sandman 15 Feb 24 - 04:02 AM
robomatic 17 Feb 24 - 06:03 PM

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Subject: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 24 - 05:21 PM

According to an ancient text known as the Rigveda, the division of Indian society was based on Brahma's divine manifestation of four groups. Priests and teachers were cast from his mouth, rulers and warriors from his arms, merchants and traders from his thighs, and workers and peasants from his feet.

no mention of politicians, where were they cast from


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Feb 24 - 06:57 AM

That passage doesn't suggest there should be an untouchable class.
That probably came from people with low ideals and greed.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Feb 24 - 05:52 PM

Politicians were expelled from his body like other body waste.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 24 - 06:27 AM

Perfect. That observation doesn't even stink.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Feb 24 - 02:39 PM

This sounds like a hash of words that spreads more heat than light. Without someone that knows what they're talking about, possibly this thread deserves to die.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Feb 24 - 02:46 PM

Words like ‘dog’ and ‘whistle’ spring readily to mind…


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Feb 24 - 04:27 PM

It's a serious issue with broad ramifications but it's easy to spout a lot of nonsense around it as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 24 - 06:02 PM

I like whimsy. If you have something serious to say, say it already.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 24 - 06:39 PM

I think any system that divides people, as the caste system does is not imo a good system.
Neither am I particularly impressed by a religious dogma that states the cow is sacred, with the result that the country is full of half starved cows that do not seem to be very well cared for.
Systems that are divisive allow the political establishment to divide the population setting people against one another,
india and pakistan have had enough problems in the past and the present with religous dogma setting muslims against hindus and christians all against each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 24 - 09:32 PM

To continue.a s a variant of an economic capitalist system it has flaws, it does not give people the opportunity to better themselves, if you are an untouchable you will always be an untouchable and can never move up the caste   system in any way economically or otherwise.
lastly if anyone wishes to discuss the matter seriously, it must be down to them to make a serious contribution to the discussion, rather than take "a hurler in the ditch attitude"
The caste system is divisive, it also has flaws as an economic system, That is serious comment, as was the original post which is the accepted official origin, it is not something that i have made up.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Feb 24 - 05:18 AM

Dick, what "serious" discussion are you expecting to have here without a total review of modern Indian politics? You just woke up and thought "Caste system is bad"? You think that informed people have never worked on this before? Nobody sits around thinking "Caste is great!" India has tried to ban caste—it's in the Constitution. But it's a bit like a government saying they have "banned" racism. It's a nice gesture, and with "education" over time minds do change, but old thoughts die hard. The proactive thing they do is the "reservation" system (we call it Affirmative Action in the US; I don't know the name in all places of the world).

Have you read Ambedkar?

Caste in the second millennium AD has had nothing to do with Brahma being divided into four classes. Nobody cares about that Rigved stuff! That's some colonial antiquarian stuff. It's a complex network of ethnic groups, which varies by locality. Lower socioeconomic classes treat their castes as mutual aid societies, while high socioeconomic groups, not in need of such aid, associate more freely within their social class.

Yes, people CAN move "up." But many do it as a sacrifice—at a loss of identity and heritage that you can't possibly appreciate if your answer is just to tell people to cast aside their identities.

Caste works quite well as an economic system *given* the socially discriminatory attitudes that don't disappear simply because enlightened thinkers wish it so. It works as a regulatory system, and the threat to that regulation is new-liberal economics coupled with a masquerade that it is to the benefit of "low" castes because this kind of capitalism doesn't see "color." Meanwhile, low castes are begging to have their color be seen so that they can have some economic protection of their trades and at least hold onto the once-exclusive means of survival that their parents bequeathed to them and that they expected to be able to bequeath to their children.

Nobody wants caste in the same way that nobody wants to be starving with only one piece of bread to eat. But they'd rather have that one piece of bread to eat today than be told if they hold off eating for several days they'll get two pieces of bread.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 24 - 12:15 PM

You just woke up and thought "Caste system is bad"? quote.
Incorrect.
I thought it might be interesting to discuss, thankyou for your comments, however you have not convinced me of anything other than it is still a divisive system, which i do not find at all appealing. I prefer socialism


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Feb 24 - 11:26 PM

Sorry to say I have not convinced you to that a discussion of this long and enormous topic requires some knowledge. Talking about varna-s coming out of Brahma is evidence that you haven't begun the slightest research nor have the experience to lead such a discussion.

I won't try to convince you that ethnicity in South Asia (aka "caste") is not divisive. It is by definition. That's what society *is*. No mass of people floats around in unity besides the Borg.

So what if you prefer socialism? What has that got to do with caste versus anything else? One can only infer that you think you are going to "solve" caste... by persuading 1.4 people in India to adopt your vision of socialism (?).

So we're back where we started: What do you know about socialism in India? Ever heard of the Naxilites? Followed India's love affair with USSR after Independence? You don't think there are socialists in Indian politics? Do you think they have failed, as natives who are engaged and know the local politics, while you'll dream up a scheme in your far-away head that will succeed?

No one could possibly care that you don't find caste appealing. As I already said, no one in their right mind finds it "appealing." They didn't sit down as a legislative body and say "Let's have Caste as our System!" Just like you didn't decide to make the "divisive" decision to split people into masculine and feminine or English and Indian. You don't seem to get that fact, which renders your expressing the sentiment to be utterly pointless.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 08:17 AM

In my country, our distantly related subject of racism has many citizens who will say "I am not a racist" but clearly support racist policies and institutionary racism. I am wondering if India has a similar dynamic that gives a tacit pass to the Caste system.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 10:18 AM

I attached this when the thread was first opened, sadly it was removed.

caste system

It gives a succinct precis of the caste system.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 10:43 AM

Raggy, We had a crash that lost a number of posts. Several people have remarked on lost posts, and I had to recreate one myself.

I was in a thrift store this week and talking to an elderly woman in the same aisle - at one point she talked about her neighborhood, and prefaced it with "I'm not racist, but" - dog whistle for something that isn't going to be pleasant. Maybe she simply needs to stop saying that and then she won't be considered racist.

Gibb, Dick started this thread because his remarks on the subject got kicked out of the "Gunga Din racist" thread when it was still up in the music section. That thread was later moved down to BS because the topic broadened and to stop some of the guest bickering. I haven't read either of your posts closely to see if you are even discussing the same thing. Questioning why the thread was started and dismissing outright the attempt isn't helpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 11:47 AM

"I'm not racist but ---" is one of those lead-ins where the listener should take everything before the "but", logically invert it, and can then ignore the rest because it will go without saying from the (inverted) initial statement.* Another way to look at it is: To themselves, everybody is a normal person, and (eg) politically moderate.

Here endeth the third core-dump.

* I remember saying this elsewhere; I might do so again, but it's probably reja vu.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 11:56 AM

Oh, and something Joe said on another thread has reminded me: If you're missing a post, click on your name in a thread, and you'll be embarrassed by shown every message you've ever written that the 'Cat remembers. If you can't see something, put it down to a Catnap .... or in my case to having slaved for half an hour on it, then thought better before Submitting it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 01:23 PM

That the caste system must be abolished if the Hindu society is to be reconstructed on the basis of equality, goes without saying. Untouchability has its roots in the caste system. They cannot expect the Brahmins to rise in revolt against the caste system. Also we cannot rely upon the non-Brahmins and ask them to fight our battle.
B. R. Ambedkar
Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar was an Indian jurist, economist, social reformer and political leader who headed the committee drafting the Constitution of India .


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 06:39 PM

Thank you Gibb Sahib. Without knowing anything other than your name by your writings you appear to know what you are talking about. I've known a few People from the subcontinent, enough to have a good opinion of Desis in general and I've heard from American visitors that India is a great country in many ways. This is perhaps not a great venue for discussion but if you want to express yourself and give further guidance I will read what you have to say.

I think it is inevitable that the future of the world will take on a non-Anmerican diminishing European flavor over time simply because there are such significant parts of the world which will gain in economic and industrial power and have their own cultural stamps to impose on the world. I'm positive that most of us on the downslope won't like it. The only question is how much won't we like it.

Some of the changes will be the kind of things we can smile about when we cry. Loss of recognition from our honered dead such as Shakespeare, Voltaire, Cervantes, Dostoyesky, Jagger, Simon, Dylan, Tolstoy. I am more concerned if we have to relearn the bitter lessons imparted by Caligula, Khan, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc etc.

Probably.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Feb 24 - 04:02 AM

Caste is a very important element of Indian society. As soon as a person is born, caste determines his or her destiny. Being born is not in the control of a person. If it were in one’s control, then why would I have been born in a Bhangi household? Those who call themselves the standard-bearers of this country’s great cultural heritage, did they decide which homes they would be born into? Of course, they turn to scriptures to justify their position, the scriptures that establish feudal values instead of promoting equality
and freedom.”
- Omprakash Valmiki, Joothan: An Untouchable's Life


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Subject: RE: BS: The Indian Caste System
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Feb 24 - 06:03 PM

I'm reminded of Ataturk.

He was a one man revolution. The current leader has had a hand in reversing it somewhat.

india is a much larger country than Turkiye. And they have maintained a democratic structure more better than Turkiye. But about Caste, I have no clue.


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