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Folk Music and politics
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Subject: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Iains Date: 25 Feb 24 - 03:36 AM From wiki The connection between music and politics has been seen in many cultures. People in the past and present – especially politicians, politically-engaged musicians and listeners – hold that music can 'express' political ideas and ideologies, such as rejection of the establishment ('anti-establishment') or protest against state or private actions, including war through anti-war songs, but also energize national sentiments and nationalist ideologies through national anthems and patriotic songs. Because people attribute these meanings and effects to the music they consider political, music plays an important role in political campaigns, protest marches as well as state ceremonies. Much (but not all) of the music that is considered political or related to politics are songs, and many of these are topical songs, i.e. songs with topical lyrics, made for a particular time and place. A shame it cannot be discussed! There's a reason why you post as a guest these days, iains. And the discussion of the politics OF folk songs is radically different than the bashing of political subjects that always creeps into these threads. When that happens it amounts to BS topics appearing above the line, and that is when they are moved. Music and BS were separated because too many anonymous guests were trashing the music topics. It's a judgement call, but again, when it comes to bashing moderation, posts are deleted, threads are moved, or threads are closed. Don't press your luck. ---mudelf |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Backwoodsman Date: 25 Feb 24 - 04:14 AM I see no reason why folk songs and their political content can’t be discussed above the line, and I’m sure they often have been over the years. But the other thread, moved by the Mods to the BS Section, isn’t such a thread, it’s not about the music, it’s about a perceived political issue - ‘anti-Scottish’ behaviour involving the UK government and the SNP - and, as such, belongs below the line. The Forum Moderators clearly agree. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 25 Feb 24 - 05:32 AM Refusing or withdrawing funding from specific groups of musicians for non-musical reasons is likely to impact adversely the performance and dissemination of their music. That affects the people who want to hear their music. The next steps on this slippery slope are state criticism of the music and music makers, then outright banning. The topic that was relegated is just as much about music as topics about Apple devices and keyboards and headphones. If not more, actually. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 25 Feb 24 - 05:37 AM It was not a 'perceived' political issue, it was political plain and simple. In the case of the Northern Irish group 'Kneecap' a grant was awarded by the appropriate institutions of the devolved government. The minister in Westminster waded in an cancelled that grant on the grounds they wouldn't support any group opposed to the UK. The situation with regards to the issue in Scotland was along similar lines. If that isn't political I don't know what is. It's fine if ghis can't be discussed here any further but let's call the issue what it is and not resort to weasel words like 'perceived'. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Backwoodsman Date: 25 Feb 24 - 06:07 AM You’re absolutely right, Peter - the ‘moved’ thread was fundamentally political and belongs below the line in the BS section. You can continue to make your valued contributions to that thread by signing in or, if you are not a member of the forum, by becoming a member. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Backwoodsman Date: 25 Feb 24 - 06:45 AM And ‘perceived’ is not a ‘weasel word’, Peter, it accurately indicates that, whist some on the moved thread see the actions of the UK government as ‘anti-Scottish’, there are others posting on the thread who don’t. ‘Perceived’ is used in my earlier post as a non-judgmental means of indicating that. Nothing more. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 25 Feb 24 - 08:07 AM I think my point was to make clear Kemi Badenoch blocked the grant, already approved by the appropriate body of the devolved government in Stormont, issuing a statement that left no doubt at all about the political nature of her decision. Nothing 'perceived' about it. But the matter is before the courts, we'll hear how they 'perceive' this in due course. And I'll leave it at that before this thread gets locked. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Backwoodsman Date: 25 Feb 24 - 09:41 AM Good. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 25 Feb 24 - 09:51 AM Meanwhile, I just came across this interview with the band: Kneecap: We don't discriminate who we piss off |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Backwoodsman Date: 25 Feb 24 - 11:14 AM But is it Folk? ;-) Exit stage left, ducking and weaving… |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Iains Date: 25 Feb 24 - 01:53 PM My thanks to the mudelf for the response. Obviously there are many contemporary folksingers who have an appreciable political content to their body of work. The premier example would have to be Ewan MacColl. Among other songs he penned The Ballad of Ho Chi Minh" and "The Ballad of Stalin" for the British Communist Party. But he also produced classics like "the First time ever I saw your face" and "dirty old town". Buffy St Marie, Bob Dylan and Joan Baez also sang political songs. The British Government through the British council funds opportunities for British "bands" to perform overseas https://music.britishcouncil.org/resources/uk-music-funding-and-support The only point I would make is that should an individual/group apply for funding from government then effectively taking the King's shilling has an implicit understanding that they toe the line in items political. To bite the hand that feeds you without anticipating sanction is clearly living in cuckoo land, and no argument or position is going to change that reality. In my view it is a bizarre sense of entitlement that in its self comes from a certain postion on the political spectrum.I know this will upset the sensibilities of most here but the truth is that just like Democrats and Republicans there are differing points of view and censoring one side does not make them go away. Differing points of view is not the problem, as you well know. We're grownups here and can carry on intelligent discussions. It's the insulting, stalking, badgering, irrelevant asides, changing the subject to be more about the person doing the badgering than staying on topic - all possible when members or guests take it upon themselves to trash a thread or the participants. ---mudelf |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Dick Miles away from his PC Date: 25 Feb 24 - 02:18 PM Folk music and politics are inseperable. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 25 Feb 24 - 04:10 PM Lefties have been obligated to manage all A&R... theirs, yours and the others'... under the "S" in ESG for some years now. The other side does not have anything like that formal process. McCarthyism 1.0 Just one of those happy little casual coincidences of the arts... the Almanac Singers being labelmates to The Red Army Chorus and all. The 1930-40s U.S. Federal Art Project (FAP); Federal Theatre Project (FTP); Federal Music Project (FMP) and Federal Writers' Project (FWP) were all famous/notorious for the politics. There were rules written, unwritten and between the lines on both sides of the aisle, under the tables and behind the curtains. Every sponsor, public and private, comes with their conditions. Sponsors mean learning the target demographic shibboleths in the same way pro athletes learn their clichés. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 26 Feb 24 - 05:22 AM Three students wander into the Junior Common room where there's a folk session going on, and someone's channeling early Dylan. "All folk songs are political," says the philosopher. "Some folk songs are political," says the physicist. The mathematician sighs, listens respectfully to the end of the song, and gravely intones: "In the corpus of songs sung in folk sessions, there exists at least one song, at least one interpretation of which is political." No sheep were harmed in the mutation of this joke. Please move it below the line if applicable. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST Date: 27 Feb 24 - 03:13 AM It is not just folk music that has an appreciable political component. During the Vietnam war there was a significant antiwar sentiment in popular music Buffalo Springfield "for what it's worth" The Animals "We've gotta get out of this place" Barry McGuire "Eve of Destruction" The Doors "Unknown soldier" Steppenwolf "Draft Resistor" I will just leave it at that. The UK had no official presence in Vietnam so I make no comment on the war, other than it occurred with a lasting legacy of killed injured and traumatised (like any war) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Feb 24 - 10:56 AM Pete Seeger: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy was the final straw for the CBS Network and the Smothers Brothers show was kicked off the air. From the YouTube page: Aired on CBS at the height of the Vietnam War, this song holds just as much truth today... It was back in 1941. I was a member of a good platoon. We were on maneuvers in Lou'siana one night By the light of the moon. The Captain told us to ford a river. That's how it all begun. We were knee deep in the Big Muddy, And the big fool said to push on. The Sergeant said, "Sir, are you sure This is the best way back to the base?" "Sergeant, go on, I've forded this river About a mile above this place. It'll be a little soggy, but just keep sloggin'. We'll soon be on dry ground." We were waist deep in the Big Muddy, And the big fool said to push on. The Sergeant said, "Sir, with all this equipment, No man will be able to swim." "Sergeant, don't be a Nervous Nelly," The Captain said to him. "All we need is a little determination. Men, follow me. I'll lead on." We were neck deep in the Big Muddy, And the big fool said to push on. All at once the moon clouded over. We heard a gurglin' cry. A few seconds later the Captain's helmet Was all that floated by. The Sergeant said, "Turn around, men. I'm in charge from now on." And we just made it out of the Big Muddy With the Captain dead and gone. We stripped and dived and found his body Stuck in the old quicksand. I guess he didn't know that the water was deeper Then the place he'd once before been. Another stream had joined the Big Muddy About a half mile from where we'd gone. We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy When the big fool said to push on. Now I'm not going to point any moral — I'll leave that for yourself. Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking, You'd like to keep your health. But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on, We're waist deep in the Big Muddy And the big fool says to push on. Waist deep in the Big Muddy, The big fool says to push on. Waist deep in the Big Muddy, The big fool says to push on. Waist deep, neck deep, Soon even a tall man will be over his head. We're waist deep in the Big Muddy, And the big fool says to push on. ___________________________ The term was "Fragging" (the name comes from Frag or Fragmentation grenades) the incompetent officer by the troops to survive the detail. Not necessarily done with a grenade, but the term was well understood. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 27 Feb 24 - 11:20 AM 'This guitar kills fascists' was Woody Guthrie's view on the relationship between music and politics- that's what today's repressive politicians are afraid of.... |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 27 Feb 24 - 11:36 AM Excellent, Jim! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Feb 24 - 12:01 PM I took a dive into the Googleverse to find a link to some Art Thieme's songs - most of us probably remember his puns and folk material from various places he lived, but he also did some war and political songs. Art'sPolitically Incorrect Songs-wrkshp has a list. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 27 Feb 24 - 03:58 PM Jim: This guitar kills fascists' was Woody Guthrie's view on the relationship between music and politics- that's what today's repressive politicians are afraid of.... Steve: Excellent, Jim! "We have met the enemy, and he is us" During the Battles of France and Britain? Nah! The very day Operation Barbarossa launched, Woody & The Almanacs' Stalinist sponsors were still celebrating their Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact with the facists. They went from isolationist to jingoist on that one day. Politics will do that to the arts every time. If the politics match your own, you are not the repressive ones and there is nothing to fear... until there is. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Mrrzy Date: 27 Feb 24 - 04:17 PM I'm all lonely on the If It's About Music, It Goes Above The Line, Even If Political - Especially If Political, Actually, side of the fence... |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GerryM Date: 27 Feb 24 - 04:26 PM "Pete Seeger: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy was the final straw for the CBS Network and the Smothers Brothers show was kicked off the air." The Seeger performance was broadcast on 25 February 1968. The TV show was cancelled over a year later, on 4 April 1969. There were many straws in between. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Iains Date: 28 Feb 24 - 05:23 AM More recently: (wiki) In March 2003, the American country band the Dixie Chicks publicly criticized President George W. Bush, triggering a backlash. At a concert in London during their Top of the World Tour, the lead singer, Natalie Maines, said the Dixie Chicks were ashamed to be from Texas, the same state as Bush, and that they did not support the imminent invasion of Iraq. The Dixie Chicks were one of the most popular American country acts at the time. After the statement was reported by the British newspaper The Guardian, it triggered a backlash from American country listeners, who were mostly right-wing and supported the war. The Dixie Chicks were blacklisted by many country radio stations, received death threats and were criticized by other country musicians. Sales of their music and concert tickets declined and they lost corporate sponsorship. A few days later, Maines issued an apology, saying her remark had been disrespectful. She rescinded the apology in 2006, saying she felt Bush deserved no respect. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 28 Feb 24 - 05:27 AM Without delving into political history, and of course the past is 'another country' I think Woody Guthrie's political views can be easily understood from the words of his songs. 'This land is your land, this land is my land' However, that's not the point of my post- the point is that he well knew the power of music in fighting the extremes of politics and I would go along with that all the way. The 'high heid yins' will always seek to stamp out dissent and although it's hardly Putin's style, the current attack on UK musical funding is just another sign of their insecurity. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Backwoodsman Date: 28 Feb 24 - 05:36 AM Natalie Maines’ musical response to the haters and nut-jobs. What a woman! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 28 Feb 24 - 05:43 AM You beat me to it re Woody, Jim. Thinking can change - mine certainly has since I aligned myself with naive revolutionary socialist groups in my twenties. As you gain in knowledge and acquire a more measured perspective, your political thinking should be allowed to evolve. That's a sign of strength, not of weakness or vacillation. Plenty of excellent comment in this thread which demonstrates that neat and tidy separation of music and politics is a mistake - impossible even. I'm with Mrrzy on this but I have only this thread in which to say so. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Feb 24 - 10:43 AM The Smothers Brothers had several iterations on CBS. They played that performance and were off the air for a while - I remember watching that program. They did return later but it was brief. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GerryM Date: 28 Feb 24 - 03:04 PM There is an episode guide for the Smothers Brothers at https://epguides.com/SmothersBrothersComedyHour/ Season 1 had 20 episodes, from 5 Feb 67 to 25 June 67. Season 2 had 26 episodes, from 10 Sept 67 to 10 March 68. Seeger sang Big Muddy on episode 24, 25 Feb 68. Season 3 had 26 episodes, from 29 Sept 68 to 20 April 69. All of that was on CBS. The brothers came back on NBC for 13 episodes in 1975, from 13 Jan to 19 May. Details at https://ctva.biz/US/MusicVariety/SmothersBrothersShow_1975.htm |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 28 Feb 24 - 05:39 PM ...he well knew the power of music in fighting the extremes of politics Stalinism was an extreme of politics. When Woody and The Almanacs signed with their Stalinist record labels they were obligated to sing the straight Stalinist party line. That was the deal. Freedom of speech or thought was never on offer. Just learn your shibboleths. The more it changes... |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Feb 24 - 07:07 PM Ah, well. Memories from when I was entering my teen years seem to have morphed into a different series of events. Ed McCurdy is another name I've known since childhood and Last Night I Had the Strangest Dream was also a regular song performed by my Dad and many in that Seattle/Puget Sound community (and of course beyond). Over on the Deckman obituary thread you'll find links to discussions of folk performances in the 1950s and 60s when Pete Seeger was becoming more active again (pushing back against being blacklisted). Wikipedia says Pete Seeger was the first to put it on an album, but it had been shared and performed by several artists in clubs and venues prior to that. The Wikipedia background quotes this: In 1950, Ed McCurdy came up to the hotel room of the Weavers, who were working in the vaudeville show at the Strand Theater on Broadway at the time. He just sang "Last Time I Had the Strangest Dream" which he'd just made up. The song has never been in the top-forty, but has gradually spread throughout much of the world, and has been translated into several languages |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 29 Feb 24 - 04:53 AM Mr d'Conch- this thread is about the unwillingness of funders to support anything they don't approve of, in this case music. 'Stalinism' is an emotive term & much misused, but IF Stalinist money was supporting Guthrie's political aims, I'd say that just proves the willingness of 'extremists' to provide money for their cause which had not been available previously! Shibboleths notwithstanding, QED |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Feb 24 - 05:07 AM I was at a concert at Fylde Folk Festival where a group of women orchestrated a mass walkout for when Vin Garbutt came on stage. I respect their right to do that as Vin had a couple of controversial anti-abortion songs. I also respect Vin's right to sing them. As long as there is no hate speech or incitement to violence, artists should be allowed to air their views as much as the next person. The folk community is predominantly left wing and liberal but there are some exceptions and those exceptions are as much part of the community as everyone else. We cannot be liberal and ban the songs we do not agree with! As to funding, sponsors are allowed to fund whatever they like and refuse funding for what they do not like. The thread that started all this, now below the line, is not about that though. It was a decision by a UK minister to withdraw funding already agreed because they did not like the message of the band being funded. That was political and I must agree that it had little or nothing to do with folk music. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Monologue John Date: 29 Feb 24 - 06:26 AM History is written by the victors - folk music is what happens to the people |
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Subject: RE: Folk Music and politics From: Backwoodsman Date: 29 Feb 24 - 06:29 AM "I was at a concert at Fylde Folk Festival where a group of women orchestrated a mass walkout for when Vin Garbutt came on stage. I respect their right to do that as Vin had a couple of controversial anti-abortion songs. I also respect Vin's right to sing them. As long as there is no hate speech or incitement to violence, artists should be allowed to air their views as much as the next person. The folk community is predominantly left wing and liberal but there are some exceptions and those exceptions are as much part of the community as everyone else. We cannot be liberal and ban the songs we do not agree with! As to funding, sponsors are allowed to fund whatever they like and refuse funding for what they do not like. The thread that started all this, now below the line, is not about that though. It was a decision by a UK minister to withdraw funding already agreed because they did not like the message of the band being funded. That was political and I must agree that it had little or nothing to do with folk music." Absolutely spot-on on all points, Dave. |
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