Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)

Subject: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 12:27 AM

"The spread of a disease which, at its height, wiped out one in two people in London, one in three in the Eastern counties (the Black Death) put the finishing touch to the peasant revolt movement in 1352. ........It was about this time that the people began singing a song called The Cutty Wren. Several versions of this song have been collected, each with a different tune and a fairly different set of words." The Singing Englishman - A.L.Lloyd p7

Can this statement be proved,or is it a question of nobody knows.

Subject: RE: Origins: Billy Brink / Bluey Brink
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 12:45 AM

A Positive quote from Georgina Boyes
The Singing Englishman also put forward a number of other distinctive approaches to tradition. As might be expected of a performer of Lloyd's ability, his brief commentary on unaccompanied singing is insightful. [3. Percy Grainger's article, 'Collecting with the Phonograph,' Journal of the Folk-Song Society, III:3; No 12 (May 1908), 147-242 offers a far more extensive and detailed discussion of English singers and their music. But, although he discussed the content in Folksong in England (p68) it seems likely Lloyd either discounted or was not aware of Grainger's comments in 1944.] 3 More important for the time, however, was his stance on the value of traditional singing styles. Lloyd didn't just offer positive support for unaccompanied singing, he challenged the contemporary Revival's comfortable acceptance of accompaniment as a necessity, and rejected the unquestioned superiority of folksongs delivered by trained voices. Maud Karpeles, who made the first recordings of Phil Tanner in 1937, referred to him 'as one of the best singers I have ever heard' and this is the only record that Lloyd recommends in The Singing Englishman's 'Short Bibliography'. More typical of establishment attitudes to traditional singing were comments made by some adjudicators at the 1957 'Festival of Folk Music' organised by The English Folk Dance and Song Society at Cecil Sharp House. Witheringly unsympathetic to traditional styles, they criticised the diction, voice production and absence of eye contact by elderly singers who had been invited to take part in this competitive event. Observers - Lloyd among them - were disturbed by 'the various rude things said by Dr Sydney Northcote to some of Britain's finest traditional singers, venerable old gentlemen who should have been treated with more respect'. 'It looked at one time,' wrote Eric Winter who was also present, 'as if Dr Northcote was going to rap on his glass as if to say he would take the other five or so verses as read'. Summing up this unpleasantly instructive experience, Lloyd concluded 'when listening to folk song performers, genuine or revival, adjudicators have to be looking for a different set of artistic virtues from those immediately recognised by the singing teacher' [4. See Georgina Boyes, The Imagined Village: Culture, Ideology and the English Folk Revival (Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1993), pp219-220 for further discussion of this event based on A L Lloyd, Eric Winter and Fred Dallas, 'Made in Britain,' Sing IV:4-5 (Dec 1957), 52;57 and Norma Waterson, personal communication. (More in Note below)] 4 Although as recently as the early 1990s, I heard complaints from some English Folk Dance and Song Society members that 'untrained singers' were performing at Sidmouth International Festival, subsequently, general appreciation did begin to change. Through The Singing Englishman, Lloyd makes a much needed contribution to the development of awareness of the qualities of traditional singing styles.
The Singing Englishman
An Introduction and Commentary by Georgina Boyes

Subject: RE: Origins: Billy Brink / Bluey Brink
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 12:50 AM

So do we still need A L Lloyd's Introduction to Folksong today? We're far less hidebound in our approach to repertoire and definition than we were even twenty years ago. The iron curtain between 'traditional' and 'contemporary' songs has rusted away, the 'Policy Clubs' and arguments about authenticity of instruments and accompaniment only rarely emerge to generate a day or two of controversy on a website or in a magazine Letters' Column. Known authorship and oral transmission, have gone the way of modal tunes and rural location as defining features - and even folksong itself has ceased to be regarded as a useful term for the kinds of informal performance that we continue to study and enjoy. Lloyd's grasp of Social History was rocky and we've now got access to massive amounts of field recordings as well as performances that have since grown out of them to hear and learn songs from. We have better context and content that is offered in The Singing Englishman to inform us about our musical culture. So perhaps it's The Singing Englishman's final paragraph that will provide the biggest shock to a new readership. Bert Lloyd, the godfather of the English Revival, who made all those records and wrote all those sleeve notes, who encouraged so many singers and provided so many classic collections of songs and theory concludes his first book with a definite view that folksong is dead, and can't be revived. Like all the rest of us, Lloyd didn't always get it right. Perhaps for that discussion alone, The Singing Englishman is truly worth re-publishing - and re-reading. Looking afresh at Lloyd's version of history most surely will make us all think again about what he, and we, feel is important for songs and their singers.
quote The Singing Englishman
An Introduction and Commentary by Georgina Boyes

Subject: RE: Origins: Billy Brink / Bluey Brink
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 12:58 AM

The Singing Englishman is truly worth re-publishing - and re-reading. Looking afresh at Lloyd's version of history most surely will make us all think again about what he, and we, feel is important for songs and their singers.
quote The Singing Englishman
An Introduction and Commentary by Georgina Boyes

Subject: RE: Origins: Billy Brink / Bluey Brink
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 01:47 AM

Also see "The Singing Englishman" by Lloyd. I'm guessing this is an excerpt. Anybody know where we can find the entire text?

https://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/tse1.htm

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 02:49 AM

https://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/tse

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 02:56 AM

Oh, DUH. Thanks, Phil. The full text is indeed available, and I don't have to pay 25 bucks for it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 03:20 AM

The point Georgina Boyes makes at the end is that this work should be read, but read with carefully and critically.
The problem with the unqualified criticism   from Nick Dow and Steve Gardham, is that it could stop people reading Lloyd.
Lloyd should be read, but not read uncritically.

Published online by Cambridge University Press: 07 March 2019

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 03:25 AM

However, despite what Lloyd asserts, there's no evidence showing any link between "The Cutty Wren" and the Black Death or medieval revolts.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 04:21 AM

Thanks

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 08:14 AM

Georgina Boyes commentary is an example of good scholarship,others take note

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 02:09 PM

'unqualified criticism from SG & ND'. Please expand on this unwarranted attack, Dick. Most of what we have said, along with praise we have poured on Bert's contributions, is what Georgina, Brian Peters and Bert's biographers have said, with added personal experience of several examples posted previously on Mudcat and Facebook. We have never advised anyone not to read Bert's works. The problem is always the same with fabricators. Once you find about 30 misleading or downright wrong statements you begin to question the rest of the material. The statement about the Cutty Wren song and the Black death is just one among many similar statements.

It is possible, nay imperative, to appreciate the contributions of a larger-than-life pioneer like Bert, but to point out the errors, particularly if people are still reading the books and sleeve notes and taking them as gospel. I have read and afterwards consulted TSE and FSiE and they have been on my shelves since the 60s. Also the Penguin Book, but I must admit I use the revised edition by Malcolm Douglas much more and just about everybody here will know why that is.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 03:01 PM

I asked specifically in relation to the cutty wren, You told me to find it myself.
I asked you, for the benfit of all readers, who may not have been aware of Lloyds scholastic weakness. if you had done so it would have been an example of good scholarship

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 03:10 PM

You're crossing the line, Dick. Be civil, not combative.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 04:47 PM

Dick, nowhere have I claimed to be an expert on Bert. I have my own examples of his peccadillos and I have read of many more. I have also read most of his published works and his biography. From this I have learnt not to trust any of his statements without corroboration from elsewhere. I write extensively on the histories of individual folk songs and I have a mountain of reliable resources to work with. I have no need to use Bert's works in this respect. My own expertise when it comes to 'fakesong' lies with the earlier fakers not those of the twentieth century. I hope that answers some of your questions.

If you are desperate for examples of Bert's twisting the facts I can give you a few from my own researches, but they are already on Mudcat in other threads.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 04:51 PM

a few from your own researches, will suffice

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 24 - 06:01 PM

No problem.
Bert, as you probably know went on a whaling trip to the Antarctic sailing from Hull, in the 50s I think. He claimed to have collected a chanty from a Hull chap Clausen on the same trip. It was a version of 'Heave away, my Johnny'. The first line went 'Fare-ye-well, ye Kingston girls, farewell St Andrews Dock.' Okay, now I have collected chanties in Hull but Hull is not famous for its chanty singing in the heyday of chantying. the west coast is where the main chantying was done. There are no genuine chanties that mention Hull, as opposed say to Liverpool.

But that's not the main reason I think this is one of Bert's concoctions. First of all St Andrews Dock was only built in the 1880s long after the heyday of chanties and it's a fish dock with trawlers. No record of trawlermen ever singing chanties. But far more than that, having lived in Hull all my 77 years, I have never heard of Hull lasses anywhere being referred to as 'Kingston girls'. If Clausen was a Hull man for any length of time he would have been aware that there was no such expression.

That's one example. Do you want more?

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 02:25 AM

Anything you want to know it should be perfectly clear
You see just beneath the surface of the mud
There's more mud here
Surprise... (Crosby, Stills & Nash)

Steve: The usual sources place Fred Clausen aboard the factory whaler Southern Empress. She was torpedoed by the Germans in '42.

Just in general, were any of Clausen's songs collected as working chanties? Seems unlikely but, I have no clue what Lloyd's actual claim was.

I'd think it much more likely they were done up as c.1940s forebitter/recreations and a 19th century genre label adapted, adopted, appropriated &c &c &c.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 03:16 AM

are you saying Fred Clausen was indeed aboard the southern empress, presumably the sources were reliable.
is it possible that Lloyd just used the wrong terminology and in fact the song was sung by Clausen, what was Berts actual claim

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 04:09 AM

The Recruited Collier, shares the same tune as Sweet Thames Flow Softly

RoyPalmer commented
It is clear that Lloyd’s editorial approach was not merely to reproduce the material sent to him. Sometimes the changes made were small… but others were far-reaching. On Jimmy’s Enlisted (or The Recruited Collier) Lloyd laconically notes: “Text from J.T. Huxtable of Workington. A version of this ballad appears in R. Anderson’s Ballads in the Cumberland Dialect (1808).” In fact, the original is entitled simply Jenny’s Complaint and features not a miner who enlists but a ploughman. A third party, Nichol, talks to Jenny about the wars and Jemmy (as he is called) merely ‘led’ (carted) the coals which remind Jenny of him. Lloyd silently (and brilliantly) remade the song. Although one phrase, ‘I’se leetin’, sits uncomfortably in the new text, the adaptation has enjoyed considerable success to a tune also supplied by Lloyd to replace Nancy to the Greenwood Gane, which Anderson prescribed.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 05:58 AM

Dick,
I'm pretty sure all the usual sources are all using A.L. Lloyd. What else is there on Fred Clausen?

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 09:43 AM

Clausen was from a place very close to where I live according to Bert, which is an area near the River Hull called Stoneferry. I have searched local records and find no mention of that name in Hull. Okay many seamen were just passing through and the name looks Scandinavian.

The date of Bert's trip on the SE must have been the 30s. I was writing simply from memory. I have the actual date somewhere. As none of Bert's researches or autobiography are extant we have little chance of verifying things. The dates are in Dave's biography. As far as I know there are no other mentions of Clausen. Yes it is quite possible that there was a Fred Clausen and that he knew something of 'Heave away, my Johnny'. I'll see if I can find my copy (I used to sing it in the dim and distant past.) There will of course be records of the crew at that time on SE. I doubt they are online though.

Bert at least implied that that is how it was sung to him by Clausen.

I don't have Dave Arthur's biography but I have read it. I ought to have my own copy if I'm going to get involved in these discussions.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 10:03 AM

Okay, some detail on Southern Empress and Clausen, found on the Crew List index online.

SE was built at Sunderland in 1914 but from 1928 she was registered at Stanley in the Falklands. She was previously called the San Jeronimo and as Phil says torpedoed in 1942. Was Clausen still in the crew perhaps?

On Crew Lists there is an F Clausen from Germany listed who sailed aboard British vessels. He was 27 in 1913 so perhaps born about 1885. In 1912 he was an AB on the 'Wimbourne' of London and in 1913 on the London registered 'Aros Castle'. There is another earlier F Clausen in the lists but the former looks likely to be our man. He would have been about 50 when sailing with Bert. The 1930s census forms are not yet available to us so I can't use these and if he was not in Hull in 1931 or 1941 they wouldn't be much help anyway.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 10:12 AM

A little added conjecture. By 1920 chanties and indeed sailing vessels were much more the province of Scandinavian, German and Polish seamen, but having sailed in British and American vessels they still knew and revered chanties in English or sometimes pigeon English. c1900 many merchant seamen learnt their trade aboard the remaining sailing vessels before graduating to steamers like SE. This was the case with some of he retired seamen I recorded in the 60s who had ended up in Hull, they learnt their trade aboard sailing vessels c1900-1910.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Reinhard
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 10:43 AM

Wikipedia says, referring to Mike Brocken: "In 1937, [Lloyd] signed on board a factory whaling ship, the Southern Empress, bound for the southern whaling grounds of the Antarctic."

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 11:10 AM

thanks everyone

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 12:43 PM

And thank-you, Dick, for adding to the examples!

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 10:32 PM

My too sloppy notes say Hugill's pal Prof. J. Glynne Davies is Gwion Davies' father and the whaler was the Southern Empress but it's not mentioned anywhere in thread.

Mr. Gwion Davies of Llanfairfechan gave me a similar version often sung aborad a certain South Georgia whaler. He said that the second 'Rownd yr Horn!' would be yelled out in English—'Round the Horrrn!'
Lyr Add: Hob-i-derry Dando

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Oct 24 - 11:00 PM

Found one of my sources. Last name first:
Guitar Davies, Gwion (Mr)
Guitar made by Mr Gwion Davies whilst on the SOUTHERN EMPRESS during a sea voyage to the South Atlantic whaling grounds in 1940/41.

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: sciencegeek
Date: 16 Oct 24 - 02:27 AM

From Musical Tradition:

https://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/tse1.htm Part 1

in Australia

https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/catalog/6153173

Subject: RE: Pamphlet: The Singing Englishman (A.L. Lloyd)
From: sciencegeek
Date: 16 Oct 24 - 02:31 AM

copies are available at Abebooks