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Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal
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Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal |
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Subject: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: Monologue John Date: 03 Mar 25 - 10:32 AM I have found 1 stanza of The Knight of Liddesdale 160A.1 The Countesse of Douglas out of her boure she came, And loudly there that she did call: ‘It is for the Lord of Liddesdale That I let all these teares downe fall.’ Does anyone know any more |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: Nick Dow Date: 03 Mar 25 - 11:03 AM It is not in Bronson, which means that probably no tune has been recovered. It may be worth consulting other collections. Is Child 160 the only reference? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Mar 25 - 11:25 AM 'Tis a puzzlement. There's nothing in https://mainlynorfolk.info/folk/. There's no text in the Digital Tradition, and the Traditional Ballad Index is puzzled, also: Knight of Liddesdale, The [Child 160]DESCRIPTION: Only one stanza extant: "The Countesse of Douglas out of her boure she came, And loudly there did she call: 'It is for the Lord of Liddesdale That I let all these tears downe fall.'"AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: (1833, assuming it existed [see NOTES]) KEYWORDS: death mourning nobility HISTORICAL REFERENCES: 1353 - Assassination of William Douglas, "The Knight of Liddesdale," by his relative Lord William Douglas FOUND IN: REFERENCES (1 citation): Child 160, "The Knight of Liddesdale" (0 texts!) Roud #3999 NOTES [1228 words]: Child apparently included this ballad in his collection "on speculation"; Scott's "Minstrelsy" claimed there were "fragments" still current in his time. Child, however, had only one stanza, and nothing more has been recovered since. Child has extensive notes on the Knight of Liddesdale, who is the probable subject of this ballad. William Douglas, who was known as the Knight of Liddesdale, was active during the reign of David Bruce, the son of Robert Bruce (for some details on the complicated Scottish succession of this period, see the notes to "The Lord of Lorn and the False Steward" [Child 271]). David Bruce had come to the Scottish throne as a child of five, and soon after, the English were invading; the English King Edward III (reigned 1327-1377) was promoting Edward Balliol as King of Scotland. This was, in a way, proper, since Edward Balliol was the son of John Balliol, who was the rightful heir of Scotland's King Alexander III. But the Balliol claim had been abdicated, and Edward III was promoting Edward Balliol solely to gain control of Scotland). According to Brown, p. 36, "William Douglas of Lothian was a third cousin of the Lords of Douglas [i.e. the great Lord James Douglas who had fought at Robert Bruce's side and carried the king's heart after Bruce's death]. He had none of their lands and status, holding only scattered manors in Lothian. He was, though, a man with the ambition and ability to see in the war a chance to emulate the rise of his kinsman. In a career characterized by war and murder and ending in his own violent death, William Douglas, known as 'the knight of Liddesdale', would contribute to both the later strengths and weaknesses of the Douglas family." In this period, there was much conflict between the Balliol adherents and the loyalists who supported David Bruce's claim. This conflict did not really end until Edward III started the Hundred Years' War with France and started sending his troops to France rather than Scotland. The Balliol forces were then pushed out of Scotland. Naturally there was much opportunity for various people to pick up lands at the expense of their neighbors. The Knight of Liddesdale was one of the staunchest defenders of the Bruce legacy (Fry/Fry, p. 85). Brown, p. 36: "Before 1334 [the year after his distant cousin Archibald 'the Tyneman' was defeated at Halidon Hill, throwing Scotland into chaos], William Douglas of Lothian had been a minor figure in Scottish politics.... By 1341, though, he was among the most powerful magnates in the kingdom." He had been captured at Halidon Hill but by 1334 was back in action, joining the resistance forces led by John Randolph, Earl of Moray. When Randolph was captured, Douglas started operating on his own, and was one of the leading loyalist guerilla fighters, his career culminating in a the capture of Edinburgh in 1341 (Brown, pp. 36-37). Two of his brothers were killed in the course of his battles (Brown, p. 38). Some of William's rise was due to royal grants, but not much (Brown, p. 39). His dealings in this period were, according to Boardman, p. 162, "somewhat dubious." He initially gained his property by capturing territory from the English, or by convincing owners who could not defend their property to give him control over it. Starting from 1339, however, he started to receive the property of pro-English owners who were pushed aside. It was out of this that he picked up the title Lord of Liddesdale, trading it for his nominal earldom of Atholl that was too far from his base (Brown, p. 40). He didn't always fight on behalf of King David II; when the King appointed a strong sheriff of Teviotdale, threatening William's authority, he overthrew the sheriff and allied himself with Robert the Steward against the King, forcing David to condone his rebellion (Brown, pp. 42-43). Having made his peace with the king, he joined the army that was heavily defeated at Neville's Cross in 1346; like David II, he was captured (Brown, p. 43). Making things even more complicated was the slaughter of the Douglases. James Lord Douglas was killed in 1330, and his son William in 1333, leaving only his illegitimate son Archibald "the Grim" to carry on that line. James's brother Archibald "the Tyneman" left only one son. A third brother, Hugh "the Dull," was still alive, but not very active, and apparently Liddesdale worked hard to keep him from marrying and leaving heirs (Brown, p. 41). So there were a lot of Douglas properties with uncertain owners. With Liddesdale in English custody, the opportunity arose for the other William Douglas, the son of Archibald "the Tyneman," to put in a claim (Brown, p. 43). Ironically, Liddesdale was the other William's guardian and godfather, but he hardly exercised the duties of that role! The two William Douglases fought for influence, with Liddesdale periodically getting furloughs from custody to keep up the fight. Finally Liddesdale transferred his allegiance to the English in return for his freedom (Brown, pp. 44-45); his goal, of course was to regain his influence at the borders. He probably should have stayed in custody. The two William Douglases continued to negotiate -- but in August 1353, Liddesdale was ambushed and assassinated in Ettrick Forest. It can't be proved that the other William was responsible, but it seems clear that either he or one of his allies arranged it (Brown, p. 46). The surviving William became "the" Douglas, claiming most of the family inheritance including the lordship of Liddesdale. In 1354, even though William had killed King David's vassal Liddesdale, David made him Lord of Liddesdale. In 1358, David went even further and created him the first Earl of Douglas (Brown, op. 49). He lived until 1384; his son the Second Earl would be the Douglas of the Battle of Otterburn (for which see "The Hunting of the Cheviot" [Child 162]). Liddesdale did leave a daughter, Mary, who lived until 1367 (Brown, p. 32) though she died without issue. (Being an heiress might have made it harder to negotiate a proper marriage for her.) But Liddesdale's main legacy was probably the creation of the border fiefdom which his murderer in effect inherited. In addition, Liddesdale has made Archibald Douglas, "Archibald the Grim," the illegitimate son of "Good Sir James" Douglas (Robert Bruce's Douglas), into a significant man. After the death of James, the second earl of Douglas, at Otterburn, Archibald -- although only the first cousin once removed of of the second earl, and illegitimate to boot -- was made the Third Earl; the line of the "Black Douglases" were descended from him (Brown, p. 53. The "Red Douglases," the Earls of Angus, descended from George, the illegitimate half-brother of James the second earl; the Douglases of Dalkeith from Liddesdale's nephew James lord of Dalkeith. We can't say much about this song, but since it seems to refer to Liddesdale's death, the possibility cannot be ruled out that the song at least mentions the complicated question of his successor (which Child does not elaborate) -- or of Douglas's dealings to obtain his fief in 1342. When Earl Douglas died at Otterburn in 1388, it caused yet another squabble over the inheritance (since there was a major factional struggle in Scotland at the time); eventually much of the the property went to Douglas of Dalkeith, Liddesdale's nephew. - RBW Bibliography
File: C160 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2024 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: Robert B. Waltz Date: 03 Mar 25 - 11:57 AM Just to make it explicit: Other than single stanza, there is no authentic text of this ballad. (Some modern may have recreated it, but there is nothing from tradition.) Hardly surprising, for a fourteenth century event. Few songs last that long, and if it had still been around in the nineteenth century (which I doubt), the nineteenth century text would have had to be very different from the original. I'm personally not convinced that it was ever an actual song, but it hardly matters. :-/ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: Joe Offer Date: 03 Mar 25 - 11:59 AM Nonetheless, it's a good opportunity to document all this. Thanks for starting the thread, John. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: Nick Dow Date: 03 Mar 25 - 12:00 PM Robert is the go to man. I think that is as close as we will get. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: Robert B. Waltz Date: 03 Mar 25 - 12:19 PM Nick Dow wrote: Robert is the go to man. Well, Steve Roud is, actually. He has access to better sources than I do, and he's more interested in documenting versions of songs (as opposed to whole songs). I'm more the "find out every dang thing you can find out about a particular song" type. :-) But we absolutely agree that there isn't any more. His only citation of the song is the entry in Child, just as mine is. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: Steve Gardham Date: 03 Mar 25 - 02:30 PM That's your chapter and literally one verse then. End of! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: cnd Date: 03 Mar 25 - 02:43 PM As best as I can tell, all sources point back to David Hume's (sometimes credited as David Hume Godscroft) The History of the House and Race of Douglas and Angus, pp. 143-144 (link) or the 1644 edition (link), p. 77. Both present the same information regarding this song. To spare everyone else from having to cipher out the old long esses, I've reproduced it below, skipping over some of the expository information matching that of the Ballad Index: The Lord of Liddisdale being at his Pastime, hunting in Etrick-Forest, is beset by William Earl of Douglas, and such as he had ordained for that purpose, and there assailed and wounded and slain beside Galsewood [Galeswood] in the Year 1353, upon a Jealousy that the Earl had conceived of him with his Lady, as the report goeth, for so says the old Song: In addition to Hume's text, Francis Child also points to Walter Scott's Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border, Vol. 1 (link), which itself sites Hume (as Godscroft) in footnote 61, referenced on page 125. Perhaps a modern reader can, with the help of advanced searching, find the "ensuing" references? (vol. 2; vol. 3). There were a few that caught my eye but I'm sure someone much more knowledgeable than me could say with more authority. The 1714 text Scottish Songs. In Two Volumes similarly points to Hume / Godsworth as the source, but notes that "This song, if extant, must be a prodigious curiosity." Fancis Gummere (The Popular Ballad - 1907) surmised that "this more serious case of marital troubles seems not to be true," likely echoing comments made in Blackwood's Magazine (March 1887, p. 342) which noted that "there was no Countess of Douglas at that time," and goes on to cite Fraser, who believed the actual cause of death was over a dispute of hunting lands; a similar viewpoint was proferred in Scottish Songs. In Two Volumes |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: cnd Date: 03 Mar 25 - 04:06 PM Here's an interesting bit to mull over from James Hogg's The Mountain Bard (1807), pp. 96-102. I suspect this is one of the apocryphal references mentioned above by Robert Waltz, but worth including as it's the only one of any age I've found. It notably does not mention the Countess of Douglas writing letters to Liddisdale not to hunt. THE DEATH OF DOUGLAS, LORD OF LIDDISDALE. The first stanza of this Song, as well as the history of the event to which it refers, is preserved by Hume of Godscroft in his history of the House of Douglas. The author having been successful in rescuing some excellent old songs from the very brink of oblivion, searched incessantly many years after the remains of this, until lately, by mere accident, he lighted upon a few scraps, which he firmly believes to have formed a part of that very ancient ballad. The reader may judge for himself. The first verse is from Hume; and all those printed within brackets are as near the original as rhyme and reason will permit. They are barely sufficient to distinguish the strain in which the old song hath proceeded. The Lady Douglas left her bower, An' ay sae loud as she did call, " 'Tis all for gude Lord Liddisdale That I do let these tears down fall." ["O haud your tongue, my sister dear, An' o' your weepin' let me be: Lord Liddisdale will haud his ain Wi' ony Lord o' Chrystendie. "For him ye widna weep or whine If you had seen what I did see,] That day he broke the troops o' Tyne, Wi's gilded sword o' metal free. "Stout Heezlebrae was wonder wae To see his faintin' vassals yield; An' in a rage he did engage Lord Liddisdale upon the field. 'Avaunt, thou haughty Scot,' he cry'd, 'Nor dare to face a noble fae; Say — wilt thou brave the deadly brand, And heavy hand of Heezlebrae?" "The word was scarcely mixt wi' air, When Douglas' sword his answer gae; An' frae a wound, baith deep and sair, Out fled the soul o' Heezlebrae. "Mad Faucet next, wi' wounds transfixt, In anguish gnaw'd the bloody clay; Then Hallinshed he wheil'd an' fled, An' left his rich, ill-gotten prey. "I ha'e been west, I ha'e been east, I ha'e seen dangers many a ane; But for a bauld and dauntless breast, Lord Liddisdale will yield to nane, "An' were I call'd to face the foe, An' bidden chuse my leader free; Lord Liddisdale would be the man Should lead me on to victory. ["O haud your tongue, my brother John! Though I have heard you patientlie, Lord Liddisdale is dead an' gone, An' he was slain for love o' me. "My little true an' trusty page Has brought the heavy news to me, That my ain lord did him engage Where he could nouther ficht nor flee." "Four o' the foremost men he slew, An' four he wounded despratelie; But cruel Douglas came behind, An' ran him through the fair bodie.] "O wae be to the Ettrick wood! O wae be to the banks of Ale! O wae be to the dastard croud That murder'd handsome Liddisdale! ["It wasna rage for Ramsey slain That rais'd the deadly feid sae hie;] Nor perjur'd Murray's timeless death— It was for kindness shewn to me. ["When I was led through Liddisdale, An' thirty horsemen guarding me; When that gude lord came to my aid, Sae soon as he did set me free!] "The wild bird sang, and woodlands rang. An' sweet the sun shone on the vale; Then thinkna ye my heart was wae To part wi' gentle Liddisdale. "But I will greet for Liddisdale, Until my twa black een rin dry; An' I will wail for Liddisdale, As lang as I ha'e voice to cry. "An' for that gude lord I will sigh Until my heart an' spirit fail; An', when I die, O bury me On the left side of Liddisdale." "Now haud your tongue, my sister dear, Your grief will cause baith dule an' shame; Since ye were fause, in sic a cause, The Douglas' rage I canna blame." "Gae stem the bitter norlan' gale; Gae bid the wild wave cease to rowe; I'll own my love for Liddisdale Afore the king, my lord, an' you." He drew his sword o' stained steel, While neid-fire gleam'd frae ilka eye, Nor pity, nor remorse did feel, Till dead she at his feet did lye. "O cruel man! what ha'e I done? I never wrong'd my lord nor thee; I little thought my brother John Could ha'e the heart to murder me." Sunk was her een, her voice was gane, Her bonny face was pale as clay, Her hands she rais'd to heaven for grace; Then fainted, sunk, and died away. He dight his sword upon the ground; Wi' tentless glare his een did rowe, Till fixing on the throbbing wound That stain'd her breast of purest snow. He cry'd, "O lady, fause an' fair! Now thou art dead and I undone! I'll never taste of comfort mair, Nor peace of mind, aneath the sun! "Owr mountains, seas, an' burnin' sand I'll seek the plains of Italie; Then kneel in Judah's distant land, An' syne come back an' sleep wi' thee." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: cnd Date: 03 Mar 25 - 04:51 PM For anyone like myself not previously familiar with Hogg, he seems to have been fairly prone to crafting new amalgamations where concrete evidence lacked; see Elaine E. Petrie's 1980 dissertation James Hogg: A Study in the Transition from Folk Tradition to Literature. See in particular pages 99-106 for Petrie's discussion of this ballad. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Child Ballad 160 The Knight of Liddesdal From: Robert B. Waltz Date: 03 Mar 25 - 06:09 PM cnd wrote: For anyone like myself not previously familiar with Hogg, he seems to have been fairly prone to crafting new amalgamations where concrete evidence lacked. That's a pretty good summary. For instance, a very large fraction of so-called Jacobite songs come from Hogg's works (notably the Jacobite Relics of Scotland) cannot be shown to have existed before he published them -- I just checked the entries for the Jacobite Relics in the Ballad Index, and half of them list Hogg as the earliest source. Moreover, with the exception of "The Haughs o' Cromdale," not one of these songs has more than five other citations of any period. Sometimes it's coincidence; sometimes Hogg found a scrap somewhere and fixed it up. But Hogg is pretty untrustworthy as a "founding source." To be fair, a lot of what he touched up turned out pretty well. |
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