Blues vs Rap

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 03:40 PM

And how is what Amos just said allthat different from the kinds of attitudes expressed in Cop Killer? These brutal people (gangstas, or cops) brought violence on themselves - they were asking for it, it's Karma?

As someone back up the thread said, there's a lot off hate and violence coming out from people denouncing hate and violence in rap. Violence breeds violence, hate breeds hate. It doesn't help to stop the hate by just responding to it with hate.

In places like Ireland and Palestine they talk about "the politics of the last atrocity" - meaning every time someone on your side drops or plants a bomb or shoots someone, it's explained/justified by going back to the last time teh other side did something just as bad. But you don't go back to the atrocity before that by your side and the one before by their side, and the one...

There comes a point when you have to stop recycling the hate. If it's true for rap singers, and it is, it's just as true for people who don't like what they sing. Doesn't mean you have to learn to like it, doesn't mean yiou can't say why you don't like it. Does mean you don't let yourself say things you should be ashamed to say.

As for Gino Luparis, where I live if Juventus was playing Manchester United we'd probably be cheering for Juventus. It was Arsenal, we'd definitely be cheering for Juventus. And if it was Arsenal playing Manchester United? Cheering for United - reluctantly.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 04:10 PM

I've talked and written about this til I can't anymore. I do have to say that calling someone a racist for their opinions about rap is outrageous and awfully naive. Don't forget that rap, besides being an artistic depiction of urban and other violence, to the point of atrocity, also has an active role in justifying same to young impressionable minds. I've seen it happen way too much when I was teaching in juvenile prison. Kids who couldn't write their names could recite whole rap albums (the gangsta kind) and there's no way around the obvious, that it made their personal crimes seem more "normal". By the way, Erykah Badu, whose songs seem relatively benign, has put out some stuff in support of the 5-Percenters, a drug gang that poses as a religion and recruits mostly young people in prison to go retail drugs for them when they get out, all the while making them think they are part of something ancient and noble. So they end up in prison again, and another one takes their place. My last word (I promise) is that in all facets of culture (music, religions, politics) if the truly fairminded and positive people are not willing to speak out about the nasty ones (lots of TV preachers come to mind), then they taint us all. Names have to be named, and that's what makes people too uncomfortable to speak.

Chet

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 05:37 PM

Y'all ever think about the progression here? The Blues, lamenting being put down, being passed by, being denied...whatever. Then, 40, 50, 60, maybe even 70 years later, Rap says, Shit, we are FED UP WITH being put down, being passed by, being denied! There's a great stanza in "Fishin' 4 Religion," (by Arrested Development) that sums up some of it:

The pastor says pray to see the pearly gates so white...

The lady prays and prays and prays..and prays...

There's nothin' wrong with prayin,'

It's what she's ASKIN.'

She shoulda been prayin' to change her woes,

But pastor said pray to cope with those.

The word COPE and the word CHANGE are completely opposite, not the same.

('scuse the ommissions.) You get the idea. If you HATE Rap, then it seems that that's all you can contribute to this thread--your hate. Not a very useful contribution.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 05:43 PM

Ah, McGrath, yer right. I just can't STAND intolerance of any kind! :>)

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 06:15 PM

So Dr. M.L. King, who was accomplishing so much with non-violence, should instead have been passing out assault rifles? I get it now.

Chet

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 06:18 PM

Chet! Put it back where you got it!

A.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Caitrin
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 06:20 PM

Sorry, Chet. I didn't realize Erykah Badu supported that group. All I know of her is the one of her two albums I own. I can honestly say that she does not glorify violence in her music, though.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Jan 00 - 07:43 PM

Good line A. Caitrin, I certainly would have missed that message in Badu's songs myself if I hadn't done some research on that gang when some of my students were being recruited in our facility, mostly by a social worker, believe it or not. Interestingly, I was called a racist by people who knew better when I studied the situation and made a report to the principal about it. At the time I didn't know he was an idiot. I listen to all kinds of music in languages I don't even understand, so they could be singing about anything and I wouldn't know. I just heard a band on NPR yesterday that writes songs in language unknown even to them. Sounded pretty cool, though. It's a complicated issue, but I've seen the damage myself and I'm not really interested in the details anymore. A disease is a disease, even if it has feelings.

Chet

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 02:51 PM

Without passing judgement on the very strong anti 'Rap' views I can't help be reminded of the strong views expressed in the recent past about 'The Devis Music' or at least those on Rock and Roll.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Caitrin
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 04:36 PM

I don't think that was the point M was trying to make. Dr. King did not try to "cope" with the way things were...he worked for change. However, you're right...he didn't use assault rifles, nor should he have.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 05:31 PM

Sorry that should have read 'The Devil's Music'.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Mbo
Date: 28 Jan 00 - 05:49 PM

Some very misguided people in Northern Ireland once boycotted an ELO concert, because they claimed it was "Devil Music." Bizarre, bizarre. ELO was the most harmless and light-hearted bands. It's like calling Charlotte Church a demon. I think that you can not like or not be interested in a kind of music, but please don't hate it. Hate not something we need more of.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:57 AM

Sorry to dredge this thread up again--but--There is a lot of anger in "Rap",and many people are not comfortable with that anger. The anger manifests itself in a lot of ways, including the posturing of violence that is the hallmark feature in "gangsta rap"--

The thing is that Rap merely vents the anger--kids memorize songs, albums, etc because the lyrics speak to their own life experience, they give voice to feelings that already exist--if an honest assessment were made, it is more likely that, by giving vent to this anger,the "Gangsta Rap" fantasy actually gives kids an alternative to acting out the anger in real life--

My family have been involved in the Civil Rights movement for several generations, and I can do a pretty convincing and noble speech on the virtues of non-violence and the the committment of all responsible Blacks to the peaceful achievement of racial justice--

However, from my own experience, I know that all Blacks, from MLK on down, carry with them bitterness, hurt, and anger--and that, from time to time, these feelings are vented--

That is a legacy of racism, segregation, and slavery that we all have to live with, like it or not.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:10 PM

A legacy of anger is not healed
By adding anger to the commonweal
Good minds bring good again to life enow
That only springs within the here, the now.
Would only that the pain behind us die
That "they" and "then" transforms to "Now" and "I"

Cutty Bushmiller Adams, 1897

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:46 PM

I can only observe that the world has not changed much in the 103 years since these noble sentiments were enshrined in couplets--

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Tchaikovsky
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:07 PM

Wow, I just read through all these messages and I am appalled at the amount of racism and hate within these messages alone. Yes, there is some hate and "bad stuff" in rap music...but honestly I listen to rap all the time and I don't hear it. I'm always hearing very positive uplifting messages that seem to transcend race, colour, sex...etc... One good comment on here was "why are we comparing rap to blues?" There are hate messages in all types of music. I grew up in an Irish household listening to recordings and singing IRA rebel tunes....you don't see me bombing anything. Of course, there is a vital difference if there are children idolizing young rap musicians who are perpetuating hate messages..whether they be in rap, folk music, rock...or any genre. We should make it more of an issue to educate "our children"(in the universal sense) about vilonce, drugs, etc.... AND THEN GETTING TO MY POINT....this is no reason to dismiss a whole genre of music. I'm a feminist musicologist who has specialized in 19th century symphonic music but I have done some anaylsis of rap. I find rap to be very complex....has anyone tried to rap??? It is not an easy thing to do....and many of these artists do it extemperaneously!! Without pontificating....I find that rap allows the listener to take in a valid message that is often quite complexly rhymed and then there is usually some sort of one line melody or chorus which re-empasizes their point. It gives a voice to many communities who wouldn't normally get to express their opinions. Perhaps, not everyone can appreciate rap however it is no reason to dismiss a genre...AND YES...there is a very obvious correlation between blues and rap....and it continues on....anyone here like Acid Jazz?? It is a wonderful mix of hip hop, jazz, rap...etc... Anyone who finds that what I have to say is even remotely interesting should check out works by the scholar bell hooks. She has some wonderful things to say about black culture and aesthetics. Thanks for reading this. Matthew Adams

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:28 PM

Rap is polyrhythmic, and, as is typical in polythmic music, there are some layers that are simply repeating phrases-- as you might expect,there are also some listeners who only hear those layers, and then claim that it is not music at all, because it is just repetition--

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:38 PM

Well argued, Tchaikovsky. The merits of the real life-blood rap are as strong as any form of musical or even semi-musical performance; I think in general the only exception that can be taken to it, as with any medium, is when it actually promotes hatred. This is not a racist issue at all, it is a human issue. Venom is no more attractive in rap than it is in political speeches or football hero remarks. Doesn't matter whether it is white hatred, black hatred, or the long-standing hatred of the pale chartreuse for the Purple People Eaters. It's jes' ugly! The form, on the other hand, is awe-inspiring.

A

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:13 PM

Aye, Peter Ilyich, but the "vital difference" that comes when young children are idolizing rapper that perpetuate hate is extremely common. The kids I was teaching in prison had only a small chance of having a life anyway, and when a rich celebrity "gangsta" (for God's sake, how many subcultures have openly identified themselves as criminals?) with pounds of gold puts out poetry about killing cops (and you know this is not an isolated theme) and "fuck their grieving mothers" I think that venting is a micro-event compared to making money, tons of it, off of other people's misery, perpetuating among other things the eternity of victimhood from which there will be no return. Since it's somebody else's fault, it seems normal to sit around their whole lives waiting for somebody else to make it right. So, please, who gets screwed in this deal? Unless you have lived or worked in such an environment, you cannot understand it like someone who has. And, this is another case, like with TV preachers, where I don't understand why the legitimate ones can have nothing to say about the crooks. The rappers who want to give to a community some hope or way out of their misery, let them do it louder, and at the same time say something appropriate about "thug.com". We're talking about lives being lost, literally, while we have these intellectual analytical discussions. Let anyone who has a love of this art hang out in the projects and rejoice in it.

Chet

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:17 PM

Social worker to dead cop's kids "Look at it this way. The artist who told that guy to kill your dad had a polyrythm, just like Max Roach!"

Chet

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 12:30 AM

As usual Chet, well spoken. I don't always agree with you, and I KNOW how much this subject hurts you, considering those you've tried to help.

You made a good point though about all preachers protecting crooked preachers by their silence. It's the same in every profession though isn't it? Crooked cops, incompetent doctors, drugged atheletes, and on and on and on. Not only does it take guts to tell the truth about crooked powerful colleagues, it's inevitably a way to be completely ostracized by your peers, crooked and straight.

We read it in the papers and see it on the tube EVERY DAY of our lives. Whistle blowers lose EVERYTHING but self-satisfaction...and you can't feed your family on that.

Rick

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,MCSquared
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 12:32 AM

OK, so gangsta rap isn't very positive. Rap as an art-form (perhaps not music but I'm a literature major so I know nothing about music) is interesting, though. Consider the really slick old-school 80s rap, from groups like RUN-DMC, the Fat Boys, Grand Master Flash, and the Sugarhill Gang.

First, their version of 80s pop culture: well, living in the hood they had missed out on the booming economy, the fluorescent clothing, and big hair rock bands, but caught the unemployment and drug use square-on. Then along comes Run-DMC, two young black men, standing on a stage talking-- talking!-- into their microphones, telling the whole world how great they were. And people listened and bought their albums! which contained a bunch of samples. Samples of other people's music, re-interpretted into their own message, much as graffitti re-interpretted the urban landscape that urban kids see every day, but don't own any piece of.

How ironic, that two black kids from NYC could captivate a generation by laying down lyrics based on rather complex rhythms and rhyme schemes. And their messages-- Run-DMC and Grand Master Flash especially-- were very positive for the most part.

And I have to agree with an earlier post-- try rapping sometime. You'll sound pretty silly. Just if you do start rapping, try to stick to a positive message.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Tchaikovsky
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 02:56 AM

Chet W....I agree with you completely but again....you are only talking about ONE type of rap. That is like a person only listening to IRA rebel tunes and dismissing all Irish folk music because they find it to be too violent. You obviously know that there are other types of Irish folk musics...and we can put those IRA tunes in historical context...just as the Wolftones do when they perform them. Of course with rap we are dealing with the present BUT the rap you are listening to is referred to as "gangster rap." There are many more rap artist who have positive themes...try Lauryn Hill, Will Smith, TLC, Salt and Peppa'...and the list goes on and on. I am not dismissing your argument...only trying to tell you there are other great types of rap out there....and yes, they are often polyrhythmic...LOL :)

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 08:04 AM

Then can we do this?: Can we agree that gangsta rap, or more to the point its huge popularity, is a tragedy, even if the others are not? I'm familiar with RunDMC, their tribute to Dr. King a few years ago was good. The gangsta stuff, though, is hugely popular. Just as there are more liquor stores in poor neighborhoods, and more cigarette billboards, there are actually billboards for, as I mentioned above "Thug.com" in the poor neighborhoods here, as well as others of the kind. Why do we object, as thoughtful folks, to hyperpromotion of liquor and tobacco to our most vulnerable citizens, and not to something which socially legitimizes being a violent criminal.

I'm aware of rappers who are trying to do good, to get people to the polls, to speak against drugs. Let's celebrate them. And let's condemn the ones getting rich from the misery of lost lives at least as loudly. If it's art, fine, but it's also a disease, and I am offended by the moron in this thread who seems to imply that any criticism of rap is racism. That should be offensive to us all.

I don't mean to offend. Years of watching kids lose all chance of life has made me intolerant of some things, and gangsta rap is just one of them.

Chet

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Tchaikovsky
Date: 05 Feb 00 - 06:01 PM

yeah, I can agree with that Chet....you make a good point. However, do understand that gangster rap will be a very important way for future historians and musicologists to understand intercity politics. Thanks for this enthralling debate.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Chet W.
Date: 06 Feb 00 - 07:16 PM

Sincere thanks to you PI, for I seldom reach accord on this issue in this forum. Good line about future historians. I often wonder what they'll say about the Home Shopping network. A line I often use, partly attributable to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, is that when some other species writes our history, they will probably say that coming out of the trees was a big mistake.

Best wishes to all of good will, Chet

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 10:49 AM

IMHO there's rap and there's crap.

Certainly there is a lot of the latter and, because of its content, is exploitative and not really worth listening to.

But there is good rap out there and I for one certainly don't dismiss it as a valid musical form. My 12-year old daughter's class had to get together in several small groups and write and perform a rap song as part of a project. Her group chose to do one on the subject of racism. And very good it was too.

It's not the form but the content that's important and that's the same with almost any musical genre.

My Belgian francs woth for today!

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Mbo
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 11:01 AM

Hey, I almost forgot about The Fat Boys! Rapping about cheeseburgers--now that's my kind of music! They used to be guests sometimes on the PBS math program "Square One" (a huge favorite of mine), as did Run-DMC. Their raps about math problems were great!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 07 Feb 00 - 12:39 PM

Something else just occurred to me, and that is that(and I've mentioned this before in other threads) "Gangsta Rap" which is a super-commercial "product', appeared rather late in the game--it sells a lot CDs, and mostly to suburban white kids--

I think that "Gangsta Rap" was created by the music industry, because it was a gimmick that sold a lot of product, and, although I did say that it was a vehicle for "venting", I think that when Rap was just something that happened in urban dance clubs, the extreme stuff was only a small element in the mix--unfortunately, now that big money is involved, as in many areas, the lurid, the shocking, and the extreme dominate, because they deliver the big sales--

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,ryan
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

u rank

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 07:44 PM

Hmmmmmmmm? Must not have been hangin' 'round the Catbox when this thread was started 'er I woulda had to throwed in my thoughts...

...ahhhhhhh, rap is a logical extension of blues. Both are folk music created by predominently black people and both talk of the stuggles and hopes of black folks...

One day when I have time I'm gonna write a blues/rap song that incorporates elements of both of them... Yeah, it would be nice if more of these young rappers would just take a journey thru history so that they would have an appreciation of the foundation that rap is built... Yeah, I gotta write a blues/rap song...

Bobert (alias "Sidewalk Bob", bluesman)

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: jpk
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:29 PM

all that rap is, is nothing more than perverted ragae opps i spelled it wrong

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,BILLY
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:51 PM

I was really enjoying this discussion - then up popped Tchai- bleedin'-kovsky, trying to turn a primitive music (?) form into a subject for academic study. The practitioners of this stuff wouldn't recognise a polyrythym if it bit them on the bum. It's just a device that allows people with little talent to jump onto a stage, make curious gestures with their fingers and launch into a diatribe that satisfies their need to be a victim ( there's a lot of this about these days - it sort of provides an excuse for not trying to improve yourself ). Feminist musicologist indeeed !

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Cromdubh
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:30 PM

Certain Rap to me is like folk music. It tells a story, with names, places and actual events which happened in an area.

Different style, same old stories. Love, murder, poverty and bling bling.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: shepherdlass
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:11 PM

Cromdubh - I'm with you there. It's all oral tradition, isn't it?

Do you know, I've only just spotted this thread and have just seen the show to prove that the blues and rap mix absolutely fine so long as the person providing the blues element has wide open ears and the person providing the rap isn't one of the cartoon-cut-out gansta rapper bogeymen. Courtney Pine played at the Sage Gateshead recently and touched on so many forms derived from the blues, from straightahead 12 bar to bebop to hip-hop and he brought on one of the rappers from the band Faithless as part of his group - magical result of genuine fusion (not shotgun marriage crossover).   

Alternatively listen to Queen Latifah in Chicago - there's a rapper that could belt out the blues if ever I heard one.

BTW Billy - the practitioners might not recognise the term polyrhythm but that doesn't stop them from using such really effectively. Just like a lot of the blues guys who originated the form probably didn't express their ideas in the language of dominant 7ths and secondary dominants. But they still were perfectly able to play them. You don't have to analyse it to play it or rap it (something called talent seems to take care of that) but it helps to have the lingo if you're trying to make sense of it as a form.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:27 AM

This thread dropped off five years ago--the world is much changed, but Rap, both the music form, and the cultural institution, are still with us, bigger than ever (or should I say, "Evah")--Yall may want to kill me for saying it, but it is way more popular than blues ever was(well, at least the kind of music folks think of as blues like Delta Blues or Chicago Blues), and has hung in there for way longer--Any thoughts as to why?

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: MurkeyChris
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM

Hi guys,

As I guy who loves both blues and rap I'd like to point you towards the song 'Bridging the Gap' performed by rapper Nas with his blues playing father, Olu Dara. Absolutely brilliant!

(If you want to hear it online I played it on an old radio show - go to http://logs.1287am.com then go to the Random Noises show at 9pm on 11th January. It's 29 minutes in.)

Chris

-----------------

Folk on the radio - www.coolasfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: MurkeyChris
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 07:12 PM

Here is a direct link to the above show. Just either download or listen to the Random Noises hour. What a plug! But it is a great song and well worth hearing in the context of this thread!

Chris

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 07:51 PM

"Yall may want to kill me for saying it, but it is way more popular than blues ever was(well, at least the kind of music folks think of as blues like Delta Blues or Chicago Blues), and has hung in there for way longer--Any thoughts as to why?"

1. Better marketing aparatus in place. And because music pie is more divided now than ever, marketing has reached new frenzied levels to try to grab their share of it.

2. Bigger overall market available (a million seller is a smaller % of the population than it used to be)

3. The void is bigger. Pop music, in general, is dreadful.

4. The cultural taboo against the immoderate behavior represented by rap is more lax. Our generation wrote about sex and drugs (in their rock and roll). In order to shock the cultural taboo has to escalate.

5. Education is no longer toward a social norm.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:15 PM

It remains to be seen whether rap hangs in there longer than blues. The final chapter of blues hasn't been written yet. It is still a viable and popular musical art form.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:10 AM

I have to suggest that there may be reason to doubt the current concept that "rap" is a traditional black cultural thing, since my first exposure to it, ca. 1954, was as a "Chicano ghetto" fad, popular especially in the So. Cal area. Samples I heard then had none of the hate/violence/protest content of currently merchandised "rap," and some were quite interesting. My observation then was that the content did reflect cultural/social conditions important to the creators, and that the rap pieces were probably valid source material for understanding of their situation and feelings.

The "rap" that I encountered then was creative and meaningful, and probably did have a lot in common with blues.

While I don't feel the need to argue it, my personal observation is that the currently merchandised "rap" has little to do with "expressing a social condition." The key is that it is made specifically to the requirements of the "merchandising" and SHIT SELLS. Claiming that the highly promoted "rap" commonly seen/heard is all about social protest is about on a par with claiming that highly promoted "porn flicks" are all about love. Both sell quite well, the promoters make a lot of bucks, and some people claim to derive some "redeeming social value" from both.

Many of them will likely grow up and get over it.

There are great numbers of talented people who do speak, sing, and act out the problems (and rewards) of their social conditions, in ways that can help others to understand and work toward mutually beneficial improvement. Rap can be a useful and beautiful medium for such expression. Mass-merchandised media "art" largely only obscures the artists in favor of what's merchantable.

Advertising hype is effective. It makes me not be interested. It seldom misleads me.

John

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:49 AM

"There are great numbers of talented people who do speak, sing, and act out the problems (and rewards) of their social conditions, in ways that can help others to understand and work toward mutually beneficial improvement. Rap can be a useful and beautiful medium for such expression. Mass-merchandised media "art" largely only obscures the artists in favor of what's merchantable."-JohnInKansas

I agree with this comment; I also agree with Lady McMoo's succient comment that "there is rap and there is crap"; and John Hardly's list about why Rap is more widely known in many cultures now than Blues was [with the exception of John's last point about "Education is no longer toward a social norm" ??? which social norm, and which form of education??-since mass media is a very powerful educational tool...

I also would like to add that my interest is in hip-hop culture more than hip-hop music [which I admit to not being a fan of for the most part]. With some notable exceptions such as "n---g" and "ho", I love the creativity of the languaging [including spelling] and the tag names used by rappers. This reminds me of the Blues as the creativity of Blues artists and early jazz musicians/singers was expressed in the way they talked.

Furthermore, similar to hip-hop artists,Blues and early jazz artists were known by tag names and not by their birth names.

Hip-Hop is a fascinating culture [cultures really] to study.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM

I actually heard one Rap song I actually liked: Where Is The Love, by the Black Eyed Peas...... Its the end of the world as we know it, i'm doomed mates... LOL

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Stu
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 02:58 PM

I have to take issue with the idea all rap is negative and espouses a culture of violence. I don't know much about rap but I Eminem's song Loose Yourself is one of my favourite motivational records - "You can do anything you set your mind to . . ."

Remember punk (the real stuff, not the pseudo-punk sh*te about these days)? Punk provoked a similar reaction from many, but Anarchy in the UK still sounds as angry and vital as it did when it came out. And less face it, us folkies benefited immensely from punk (Shane McGowan, Billy Bragg etc).

Rap is young people using and exploring language in a creative and exciting way - all power to it's elbow.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM

For those who may not be aware, there are a number of magazines devoted to Hip-Hop culture. The two that I frequently buy [and at one time subscribed to are Source and Vibe. Here are links to both


Source HipHop Magazine

Vibe Magazine

thesource.com appears to just show the cover of its current magazine, and promote other purchasable products, but it announces that a new site is coming.

The Vibe site has information that is readable online.

It should come as no surprise that these competing magazines don't like each other. The Source, for instance, boast that it has more street credibility than the Quincy Jones' produced Vibe. [I think they're right about that]. But there are other Hip-Hop magazines that say that neither Source or Vibe is credible with hardcore
Hip-Hop fans. And depending on how one defines 'hardcore Hip-Hop fans', they might be right.

Not playing favorites or anything [wink wink], here's an excerpt of a Source article from April 2004 to give you one flava of what it's all about:

"Don't Believe the Hype" Martin S. Douglas
The dramatic rise of Hip-Hop over the last few years has forced mainstream music organizations to accept the billion-dollar genre as a driving force. And while, to the naked eye, it seems as though the Grammys and the MTV, VMAs are embracing an art form that they once turned their noses up to, a closer look reveals a hidden agenda.

...while [the 2004 Grammy television show] appeared to be honoring Hip-Hop with five nominations in the Record and Album Of The Year categories (the highest ever in the Academy's two most prestigious categories) and 39 nominations in total as opposed to 32 nominations in 2003, 25 in 2001, and 18 in 2001, none of the six rap categories were televised....

It is no surprise, then, that the Grammy winners reflect what the academy considers to be a more palatable version of Hip-Hop. A perfect example is the shutout of 50 Cents who, after becoming 2003's top selling artist and Hip-Hop's most obvious choice for a winner in any category, was beat out by goth-rockers Evanescence for Best New Artist...

Remember it's only been a few years since our artists stood in protest against the Grammys for not respecting Hip-Hop's achievements...It was only in '89 that the Grammys first recognized the genre, and the Solo and Group categories were not differentiated until '91. Its Best Rap Album category didn't even come into existence until '95. Most disturbing is that the Best Rap SOng category, which recognizes songwriting, wasn't introduced until 2003-an outrage since rap has always stressed lyricism...

Similarly, the MTV VMAs have their own troubled history with Hip-Hop. In 1999, they split the award for our music into two separate categories-one as "Rap" and the other as "Hip-Hop". While artists like Jay-Z and Dr. Dre stayed in the "Rap" category, they began to include 'less threatening' artists like Jennifer Lopez, Sisqo, and The Beastie Boys into "Hip Hop". In effect, this split will eventually contribute to the mainstream MTV-viewing audience's perception that "RAP" is the music of angry, young Black men, while Hip-Hop is softer, more digestible, and 'acceptable' music.

As a whole, these mainstream awards shows have been a slap in the face to the culture. They have used it for their own commercial gain by making it conform to their own standards, Their bogus acknowledgement is too little,too late, and this tyoe of treatment proves tht even in the 21st century, the music industry still does not truly respect the art form of Hip-Hop."

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,anonamys
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 12:22 PM

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,anomanis
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 12:24 PM

i enjoy rap it gives me a good feeling and there is plenty songs from eminem that tell about sucess and he is super popular

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Firecat
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:41 PM

intelligent people (of all skin hues) realize that it is simply filth aimed at the lowest mentality

I happen to like rap, especially Eminem. I think that the above comment (from the second post to this thread) is a generalisation of people's views about the kind of peple who listen to rap. I have an IQ in excess of 140, so would I be classed as being of the "lowest mentality"?

It is, however possible to like blues as well as rap. One of my favourite songs is "Baby Can I Hold You Tonight" by Tracy Chapman, with "Fast Car" high on my list as well.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:00 PM

i like blues AND rap.

and chuck D from public enemy recently remade electric Mud (muddy waters) with all the original band because he says how blues is such an influence on him.

for all the idiots on this thread who are saying rap is shit, bla bla, rap is all about beating women, bla bla, you are saying this because of what the media has told you, not what you know from actually doing investigation of lyrics etc.

Yes there is a lot of rap around about "bitches" and "hoes" etc, but this is the equivalent of pop music to real rock music - it is a blight on the landscape of music.

you dont have to hate rap because you like blues, idiots. There are plenty of rap artists around who write meaningful lyrics and political issues etc, such as public enemy, in an extremely intelligent manner. You just dont know this because you dont want to admit that youre wrong, or you cant be arsed to actually find out something about the history of rap music before you start typing down your STUPID thoughts.

why dont you actually do some research before you post stupid comments and tar the entire history of rap music down to "its all about beating women"

music is supposed to unite people, and there are plenty of rap artists who are heavily influenced by blues music, as there are plenty of fans of rap and blues together.

if you havent researched rap, and dont know the first thing about it, then i dont personally know how you even dare put your pathetic arguments forward

and if this message comes across as angry, it is because i am sick to death of people who know nothing about rap and its history coming onto rap threads in mudcat and saying its shit with no valid argument whatsoever, just because they think they are above it because they listen to blues and folk.

i like run dmc, cypress hill, robert johnson, blind willie mctell, i could go on.
both genres can live together and add their own parts of history

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:17 PM

I like blues, but although I can see the link of rap back to blues, I cannot abide rap at all. Just tastes, I guess